Re: 19 May Mail on Sunday: 'MADDIE: UK CLEANERS ARE SUSPECTS' + WHO SOOTHED A WEEPING MADDIE the Express

by sallypelt 19.05.13 23:52

Another reminder of the Smith's statements:
Re – Investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann

I took an additional statement from Mr Smith as requested. His wife does not want to make another statement. I showed him the video clip and he stated that it was not the clip that alerted him but the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007.

He has been contacted by numerous tabloid press looking for stories. He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor's letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor's fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment.

I do not believe that Martin Smith is courting the press and my view his is a genuine person. He is known locally and is a very decent person.

Forwarded please

Sergeant

Liam Hogan

I hereby declare that this statement is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and that I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I will be liable to prosecution if i state in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.

I would like to state that the statement I made on 26th May 2007 in Portugal is correct. The description of the individual that I saw on 3rd May 2007 carrying a child is as follows. He was average build, 5 foot 10' in height, brown hair cut short, aged 40 years approximately. Wearing beige trousers and darkish top maybe a jacket or blazer. He had a full head of hair with a tight cut. This individual was alone. I saw Gerard McCann (sic) going down the plane stairs carrying one of his children on 9th September 2007 BBC news at 10 PM, I have been shown the video clip by Sergeant Hogan which I recognise. A clip I have seen before on the Internet. In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person. It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane. After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later. This statement has been read over to me and is correct.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

by noddy100 20.05.13 0:20

Also pics on twitter of forensics cutting up sheets never seen those enforce

by noddy100 20.05.13 0:26

Before!

by aiyoyo 20.05.13 5:22

noddy100 wrote:It was an Israeli newspaper reporting the news about maddie being soothed Will go back and look

Soothed - meaning the witness must be around for a while to notice the change; and not just passerby.
Being soothed - being denotes passage of time. An upset crying child cannot stop immediately; especially if strangers were to approach, the child might even scream and become hysterical.

The 'middle-age couple' must be known to Maddie if she was soothed.
I would say her parents and their Tapas friends are all middle-age.
Generally the terms 20s, middle-age (30s-40s), fiftyish, and above that - elderly - are commonly used to describe age-group.
I would anyway as 30s-40s is middle age to me.

Either Hamish Campbell is a stupid bungling Cop who's clueless but wants to make a memorable exit Mccanns case review being his last, or the tabloids are embellishing and making up the stories from unsubstantiated source to sell papers.

If Campbell knew of this witness, it would mean this witness statement exists on historic records; or this witness came forward belatedly as a result of the REVIEW and was interviewed. Of the two possibilities we know which one is more plausible. If in the latter case, you have to question if MET can interview this witness why can't they interview the rest of the "handfuls" instead of passing the buck to Portuguese side by making such a public announcement about it.

Either Campbell or the Press was throwing spanner into the works thoughtlessly knowing they wont be held to account to the truth.
2007 all over again FAIAC even post Leveson. Just goes to show Leveson was waste of time and taxpayers money.

by Guest 20.05.13 7:39

Woofer wrote:
MJC wrote:
Woofer wrote:
sweetex wrote:Thanks Russiandoll!

I could have missed it, but my question is

Did this Moyes women did an actual statement with the police. I saw the transcript for the radio interview, but is there a police statement? Maybe she has mentioned the couple in her police statement?

The Express didn`t actually say that it was the couple they spoke to (assuming its the Moyes) who said the police were looking for a couple who went into the apartment to comfort Maddie.

The Express started the piece by saying that the police were looking for a couple who comforted Maddie but they don`t give their source. The info about the `Moyes` is added later on in the piece but has nothing to do with the couple that the police are looking for. It didn`t come from the `Moyes` (that`s if it is them).
I concede you are correct, Woofer.

I assumed that Moyes had spoken about the couple.

It does not actually say so in the article.

They way the piece is put together suggests that possibility, but no more.

SNIPPED

Yes, the whole piece was artfully put together making it seem as though it was the Moyes, but after carefully checking, it seems it doesn`t have to be them.

And yes, one would think that this supposed `soothing couple` together with the witnesses who saw them, would have been high priority witnesses.

As I said, you were right, Woofer, to point out that the Express piece was not clear. It looked as though the source for the 'soothing couple' story was the whisky-drinking Paul and Susan Moyes, but that wasn't explicit.

Today's Star story removes the doubt, however. In another sensational front page story, claiming that the SY Review Team are looking for SIX British cleaners, ONE middle-aged couple and MORE THAN A HANDFUL of assorted Portuguese manual workers, they say this:

"...middle-aged British couple said to have entered the night before Madeleine disappeared after hearing crying...The middle-aged couple were spotted by two witnesses with an apartment overlooking the garden of 5a where Madeleine was staying in May 2007"

So, according to the Express and now the Star, we are now given this:

1. The story comes from the whisky-drinking Paul and Susan Moyes

2. Paul and Susan Moyes come from eastern Cheshire, a stone's throw from where Brian Kennedy lives, both living in the Congleton district

3. They were on their balcony on the evening of 2 May

4. They 'spotted' a middle-aged couple entering the McCanns' apartment, during the night of 2nd/3rd May. QUESTION: Was it dark when the Moyes spotted them?

5. We are told by both the Express and the Star that the Moyes reported that "the couple soothed Madeleine after hearing crying".

QUESTIONS:

* What time exactly is this couple supposed to have soothed Madeleine? No details are given
* Was it dark when this couple was allegedly 'spotted'?

* If the Moyes heard Madeleine crying, they must also have heard a child crying (i.e. before the couple arrived)? So what action did THEY take when they heard a child crying?

* How did the Moyes know it was Madeleine crying? It might have been Sean or Amelie?

* How did the Moyes know Madeleine was soothed? Because the crying stopped?

* Did the Moyes see the middle-aged couple leave the apartment?

* Did the couple go and fetch the parents, or stay with the children until the McCanns got back?

* Why is there absolutely no mention anywhere of what, on any view, would be an event of major significance in this case?

Sorry, don't buy all this for one second. The Moyes, Scotland Yard, the Express and the Star are all IMO making this up.

by plebgate 20.05.13 7:48

http://news.sky.com/story/1093048/madeleine-suspects-not-fully-investigated

Sorry not sure if this has already been posted.

Tony mentioned in the key events time line.

Edited to add - " August 6 - A Portuguese newspaper reports that British
sniffer dogs have found traces of blood on a wall in the McCanns'
holiday apartment."

The above taken from the events time line.

by Lance De Boils 20.05.13 9:57

MJC wrote:
"...middle-aged British couple said to have entered the night before Madeleine disappeared after hearing crying...The middle-aged couple were spotted by two witnesses with an apartment overlooking the garden of 5a where Madeleine was staying in May 2007"

So, according to the Express and now the Star, we are now given this:

1. The story comes from the whisky-drinking Paul and Susan Moyes

2. Paul and Susan Moyes come from eastern Cheshire, a stone's throw from where Brian Kennedy lives, both living in the Congleton district

3. They were on their balcony on the evening of 2 May

4. They 'spotted' a middle-aged couple entering the McCanns' apartment, during the night of 2nd/3rd May. QUESTION: Was it dark when the Moyes spotted them?

5. We are told by both the Express and the Star that the Moyes reported that "the couple soothed Madeleine after hearing crying".

MJC, I've interpreted this differently. There are many apartments overlooking 5A, one of which was the Moyes'.
In the last couple of days, it's been in the press that police were checking out all the people who'd been staying in 4 apartment blocks, which they say all overlook 5A.
Also, do you remember Bridget O'Donnell's article? She mentioned how they could see the patio/garden of 5A from their balcony. (Can't recall her specific words and can't be bothered to look at the moment.)

So, to me, that line says that it could have been the Moyes, but equally it might not have been.

by Guest 20.05.13 10:03

"One morning, I saw Gerry and his wife Kate on their balcony, chatting to
their friends on the path below. Privately I was glad we didn't get
their apartment. It was on a corner by the road and people could see in.
They were exposed."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

by Lance De Boils 20.05.13 10:07

Ah, yes, that's it. Thanks, Chatelaine.

by Pershing36 20.05.13 10:29

Maybe we all misunderstood the SY review, they were not reviewing the PJ files at all, it was a book review of Madeline.

No seriously, I know supporters like to hang around here and copy and paste things to their own forum so I hope they choose this one.

No matter what side of the fence you sit on you just have to admit this does not fit in with what was seen that night. The broken in apartment (shutters etc), the man seen carrying off a girl alone, the regular checks on the children that would have heard the crying. It just doesn't fit with the statements that night.

I wasn't there that night so I don't know what happened but this really doesn't sound very feasible. What was their motive, they believed neglect? If they had been in their the night before they were hardly opportunists. Maddy was old enough to tell about strange people had been in her room, would they risk coming back another night after possibly being exposed?

Why did the witnesses to this forget at the time but remember so many years later?

by Guest 20.05.13 10:44

Lance De Boils wrote:
MJC wrote:
"...middle-aged British couple said to have entered the night before Madeleine disappeared after hearing crying...The middle-aged couple were spotted by two witnesses with an apartment overlooking the garden of 5a where Madeleine was staying in May 2007"

So, according to the Express and now the Star, we are now given this:

1. The story comes from the whisky-drinking Paul and Susan Moyes

2. Paul and Susan Moyes come from eastern Cheshire, a stone's throw from where Brian Kennedy lives, both living in the Congleton district

3. They were on their balcony on the evening of 2 May

4. They 'spotted' a middle-aged couple entering the McCanns' apartment, during the night of 2nd/3rd May. QUESTION: Was it dark when the Moyes spotted them?

5. We are told by both the Express and the Star that the Moyes reported that "the couple soothed Madeleine after hearing crying".

MJC, I've interpreted this differently. There are many apartments overlooking 5A, one of which was the Moyes'.
In the last couple of days, it's been in the press that police were checking out all the people who'd been staying in 4 apartment blocks, which they say all overlook 5A.
Also, do you remember Bridget O'Donnell's article? She mentioned how they could see the patio/garden of 5A from their balcony. (Can't recall her specific words and can't be bothered to look at the moment.)

So, to me, that line says that it could have been the Moyes, but equally it might not have been.

OK, I agree that neither the Express nor Star articles explicity say it is the Moyes, but I maintain that all the indications are that it is them.

This is what the Express wrote:

***

The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were re-interviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation.
It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2. [NO!]

A source [FROM SY??] said: “Police were astonished when this new information came to light. Officers spoke to other key witnesses to discover more about the middle-aged couple [WELL, THE POLICE ARE ONLY ABLE TO SAY THAT THE 'SOOTHING COUPLE' ARE 'MIDDLE-AGED' AND THAT THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE TO FIND THEM].

“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”

***

Whether it is the Moyes' who spoke about the soothing couple (as I am sure it is), or whether it is another couple, all of these questions still remain - if, that is, we believe there ever was a soothing couple:

* What time exactly is this couple supposed to have soothed Madeleine? No details are given

* Was it dark when this couple was allegedly 'spotted'?

* If the couple heard Madeleine crying, then the Moyes/the other mystery couple must also have heard a child crying (i.e. before the couple arrived)? So what action did THEY take when they heard a child crying?

* How did the Moyes/mystery couple know it was Madeleine crying? It might have been Sean or Amelie?

* How did the Moyes/mystery couple know Madeleine was soothed? Because the crying stopped?

* Did the Moyes/mystery couple see the middle-aged couple leave the apartment?

* Did the couple 'spotted' by the Moyes/mystery couple go and fetch the parents, or stay with the children until the McCanns got back?

* Why is there absolutely no mention anywhere of what, on any view, would be an event of major significance in this case?

by sami 20.05.13 10:49

How do they know the couple were "soothing" ? If nobody knows who they are, how does anybody know what they were doing ?

What exactly happened - they went in, "soothed" a crying child, then left, without speaking to anyone, all the while being watched by Mrs m having her whiskey. Then they vanished.

by Pershing36 20.05.13 10:56

sami wrote:How do they know the couple were "soothing" ? If nobody knows who they are, how does anybody know what they were doing ?

What exactly happened - they went in, "soothed" a crying child, then left, without speaking to anyone, all the while being watched by Mrs m having her whiskey. Then they vanished.

How do they know they were British?

by aiyoyo 20.05.13 11:05

"...middle-aged British couple said to have entered the night before Madeleine disappeared after hearing crying...The middle-aged couple were spotted by two witnesses with an apartment overlooking the garden of 5a where Madeleine was staying in May 2007"

Eh.....unless "BRITISH" is stamped on the couple's forehead in neon light, you have to wonder how the witnesses from apt two levels away made out their nationality in pitch dark condition.
Made out their age from their shilouette - maybe.
Made out their nationality - impossible, unless the couple were known to the witnesses.

One wonders how the alleged couple entering knew the crying child was alone and the apt unlocked.
It would have been more normal for strangers, on hearing incessant crying of a child, to knock on the door to alert the parents in case the parents were fast asleep and snoring, or to alert the reception.

To have entered would suggest the couple had pre-knowledge the apt was unlocked and the child was left unattended. Even with pre-knowledge it would be very unusual for strangers to gatecrash into the apt, more normal to alert reception instead. Also, if something sinister was going on, why did they not just take Maddie away on this night, instead of returning the following night when patrol was stepped up.

There is no co-relation between JT's swarthy long hair man and this pair of witnesses account of the middle-age BRITS couple.

by Guest 20.05.13 11:09

This is one the reasons why I place no reliance on the Express and Star reports - the vague language - examples from the Express article below:

***

trying to find

middle-aged

said to have

It is believed they

A source said

Apparently

a lot of people of interest

people who could be properly explored further

understands that

by noddy100 20.05.13 11:14

I think this is giving out a message to teh tapas. The only way they could know they were british for sure is if they had spoken to them or seen them before with the McCanns

by sami 20.05.13 11:17

MJC wrote:This is one the reasons why I place no reliance on the Express and Star reports - the vague language - examples from the Express article below:

***

trying to find

middle-aged

said to have

It is believed they

A source said

Apparently

a lot of people of interest

people who could be properly explored further

understands that

I can see what you are saying. What is its purpose in being printed and who is behind it ?

This is very damaging to the McCanns and for me blows the responsible parenting claim right out of water. No grey area any longer. Their children were alone, in an un-locked apartment, for sufficient time to become hysterical, long enough for two people to stand outside, listen, decide the crying will not stop and there is nobody there, enter the apartment, soothe, and leave. Still no parent arrived.

Now Scotland Yard, my question is, if that is not neglect, what is ? On this basis why are the parents not being questioned about this neglect right now?

by Guest 20.05.13 11:19

Johanna‏@UnterdenTeppich17mUnterdenteppichgekehrt: The mysterious couple http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-mysterious-couple.html?spref=tw … #McCann

by sheila.edwards 20.05.13 11:21

tappas nine had all been drinking to,No phones no watches ! so god knows what happened.In files it states:; McCanns had been advised to get sitters for safety of children as recent bout of break ins etc. but they ignored the advice from mark warner manager.?why would you do that.Id like to see what the 159 credible lines of enquiry where ! now down to 20 then 8. They never did do a lie detector test or proper helped police/reconstruction.Cant they all be made to, to help find a child one would think they would all be falling over themselves to do anything to help !something stinks and its not seabass, nappies, or smelly trainers. Heres hoping this keeps them off wee lorraines sofa answering set questions only.They all need interviews with someone like david frost or Richard and judy where theres no hiding from questions . why would you want to anyway id just want my child back

by Pershing36 20.05.13 11:22

sami wrote:

Now Scotland Yard, my question is, if that is not neglect, what is ? On this basis why are the parents not being questioned about this neglect right now?

It is not neglect, sounds like complete and utter bull to me. If this is to be believed they may as well tear up all the other statements as it goes against everything else apparently seen that night.

What did they do, jemmy the shutters and quickly repair them afterwards?

by Guest 20.05.13 11:27

aiyoyo wrote:
"...middle-aged British couple said to have entered the night before Madeleine disappeared after hearing crying...The middle-aged couple were spotted by two witnesses with an apartment overlooking the garden of 5a where Madeleine was staying in May 2007"

Eh.....unless "BRITISH" is stamped on the couple's forehead in neon light, you have to wonder how the witnesses from apt two levels away made out their nationality in pitch dark condition.
Made out their age from their shilouette - maybe.
Made out their nationality - impossible, unless the couple were known to the witnesses.

One wonders how the alleged couple entering knew the crying child was alone and the apt unlocked.
It would have been more normal for strangers, on hearing incessant crying of a child, to knock on the door to alert the parents in case the parents were fast asleep and snoring, or to alert the reception.

To have entered would suggest the couple had pre-knowledge the apt was unlocked and the child was left unattended. Even with pre-knowledge it would be very unusual for strangers to gatecrash into the apt, more normal to alert reception instead. Also, if something sinister was going on, why did they not just take Maddie away on this night, instead of returning the following night when patrol was stepped up.

There is no co-relation between JT's swarthy long hair man and this pair of witnesses account of the middle-age BRITS couple.

A series of excellent points, aiyoyo.

I am intrigued by the way the Express links this crying on 2/3 May to the account of the crying by Pamela Fenn, which clearly refers to 1/2 May. The Express editor and journos are not stupid, they know very well that Pamela Fenn said Tues 1 May. So why did the Express say in their article that Pamela Fenn was referring to 2 May? I would put forward the suggestion that this was NOT a mistake by the Express but WAS DONE DELIBERATELY.

The Express says the crying was 'for about an hour'. Pamela Fenn said 75 minutes.

Here's another question.

The crying was presumably loud enough for the Moyes/mystery couple to hear.

It was loud enough for Pamela Fenn not only to hear but to ring someone else in the village and tell them about it.

It was obviously loud enough (if the Moyes/mystery couple are telling the truth) for the other mystery British couple to hear the crying and go and soothe Madeleine (though how the Moyes/mystery couple know it was Madeleine and not Sean or Amelie crying, I don't know).

So why didn't the occupants of the 4 blocks all said to have a great view of G5A also hear a child crying for 75 minutes, and why didn't any of them do anything about it?

Further, Mrs Fenn said the crying started at 10.30pm and went on to 11.45pm, during which time it was VERY DARK.

So how did the Moyes/mystery couple divine at this time of night that this was a middle-aged British couple who went to soothe Madeleine?

I suggest these as possibilities:

* They both had 'middle-aged spread'
* The bloke was bald and his pate shone up in what little lighting there was, and
* One or both of them was wearing an illuminated sign saying: 'I am British".

No-one has persuaded me yet that this story is anything but sheer fabrication

'

by **PeterMac** 20.05.13 11:27

Pershing36 wrote:
What did they do, jemmy the shutters and quickly repair them afterwards?

Oh, yes we forgot about that. They have to do that as well within the one minute and 20 seconds !

by Guest 20.05.13 11:30

Pershing36 wrote:

It is not neglect,

Agreed

sounds like complete and utter bull to me.

Agreed

If this is to be believed they may as well tear up all the other statements as it goes against everything else apparently seen that night.

What did they do, jemmy the shutters and quickly repair them afterwards?

Pershing 36, the mystery couple seeing the mystery couple is said to have occurred on Weds 2 May

by sami 20.05.13 11:35

MJC wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:

It is not neglect,

Agreed

sounds like complete and utter bull to me.

Agreed

If this is to be believed they may as well tear up all the other statements as it goes against everything else apparently seen that night.

What did they do, jemmy the shutters and quickly repair them afterwards?

Pershing 36, the mystery couple seeing the mystery couple is said to have occurred on Weds 2 May

We are being led to believe that this is the road Scotland Yard are following, looking for these people. That being the case, they should be calling it neglect, in my opinion.

It is only not neglect because it is not true.

So, who has ownership of this story ? If the pink one is spinning it, it is very damaging. If it is not him, who is it

by bobbin 20.05.13 11:35

sami wrote:
MJC wrote:This is one the reasons why I place no reliance on the Express and Star reports - the vague language - examples from the Express article below:

***

trying to find

middle-aged

said to have

It is believed they

A source said

Apparently

a lot of people of interest

people who could be properly explored further

understands that

I can see what you are saying. What is its purpose in being printed and who is behind it ?

This is very damaging to the McCanns and for me blows the responsible parenting claim right out of water. No grey area any longer. Their children were alone, in an un-locked apartment, for sufficient time to become hysterical, long enough for two people to stand outside, listen, decide the crying will not stop and there is nobody there, enter the apartment, soothe, and leave. Still no parent arrived.

Now Scotland Yard, my question is, if that is not neglect, what is ? On this basis why are the parents not being questioned about this neglect right now?

But is 'neglect' better than 'other' ?
What if the couple were, say, like the ?eastern european? couple, who were caught taking photos on the beach, taking photos of Madeleine? What if someone in on it, knowing the door was left open each night, (as stated by Gerald McCann) accompanied visitors each night to photograph Madeleine. Didn't Amaral say something about a lot of visitors to 5A? What if Madeleine had got hurt during the time that her parents were not in attendance? Who says the 'soothing' a crying child was actually 'soothing' a crying child.
For the attention of CRUCK, these are of course just some of the questions that one must be able to eliminate in order to find out what happened to Madeleine. We all want to leave no stone unturned in the search for the truth of where and how Madeleine disappeared, don't we, and if her parents themselves claim that a paedophile ring have taken her ("they have taken her", shouted by Kate McCann) then these newly found leads are where the questioning needs to start.

Log in for more topics