Jane Tanner - did she think she had killed Madeleine?

by rainbow-fairy 09.04.12 16:09

Recently I was reading a thread, I can't for the life of me remember which one, in which someone uploaded a screen shot of an e-mail a man in London had written.

He stated he had 'information'

He alleged that the 'demise' of MBM had been planned for months, and that the holiday friends, including Jane, were especially picked for a reason. Apparently Kate had been training Jane how to sedate her children.

The man then said that on the night in question, Jane was asked to give Maddie a sedative (which IIRC she'd been given one already). When Maddie was found, Jane understandably thought she had killed her, and that is why she and ROB 'went along' with everything.

Please does anyone remember this e-mail? If so, post it please?

I'd just like to discuss it and see if it 'goes' anywhere really.

by Kololi 09.04.12 16:47

Can I ask why would Mrs McCann be training Jane Tanner to sedate her children or didn't this information person explain that?

Also if a pal overdosed your child wouldn't you be screaming murderer from the rooftops?

by rainbow-fairy 09.04.12 16:51

Kololi wrote:Can I ask why would Mrs McCann be training Jane Tanner to sedate her children or didn't this information person explain that?

Also if a pal overdosed your child wouldn't you be screaming murderer from the rooftops?

No, it didn't explain...

And why would you be screaming murder from the rooftops if it was planned to be that way?

I'm not saying that is the case, but this e-mail insinuated that. I just can't remember the mans name, nor the thread it was posted in...

by Fred Up 09.04.12 17:06

If this were so, then how would the presence of blood that the dog alerted to come into it? Surely if it were death by over-sedation, then would there be bleeding in such amounts that it would seep under the floor tiles?

by **tigger** 09.04.12 17:12

JT and possibly ROB (and wasn't there a suggestion that ROB had tried to revive Maddie? (Definitely seen some post to that effect) how reliable - sorry - don't know - sometimes it doesn't hurt to throw suggestions into the ring.

JT and ROB certainly seem to have assisted over and above the other T's .
We do have the phone pings between ROB and Gerry when they were about 28 miles apart, on the 9th/10th June. ROB's phone call was linked to the barn where the PJ found some evidence which they didn't publish. Except to say that according to Amaral fibres were found there that also related to the Renault.

JT gave Gerry an alibi and later helpfully pointed out Murat - she identified Murat positively. From Kate's diary we already know she didn't like him.

The other unsubstantiated snippet I mentioned somewhere else this week, was that just before the Rothley meeting there seemed to be some of the T7 who were willing to come clean.

I rather like this scenario because there is such a thing as 'letting it happen on purpose' - whilst not purposely doing the deed, still making certain it is done.

So Kololi, unsubstantiated but simply gathering bits and pieces to see how they fit. The extra help from ROB and JT is significant.
JT's evidence changed with the wind direction - but also her helpful description of the pyjamas the child was wearing developed as the case developed, shoring up the testimony of the McCanns at every opportunity.

by rainbow-fairy 09.04.12 17:22

tigger wrote:JT and possibly ROB (and wasn't there a suggestion that ROB had tried to revive Maddie? (Definitely seen some post to that effect) how reliable - sorry - don't know - sometimes it doesn't hurt to throw suggestions into the ring.

JT and ROB certainly seem to have assisted over and above the other T's .
We do have the phone pings between ROB and Gerry when they were about 28 miles apart, on the 9th/10th June. ROB's phone call was linked to the barn where the PJ found some evidence which they didn't publish. Except to say that according to Amaral fibres were found there that also related to the Renault.

JT gave Gerry an alibi and later helpfully pointed out Murat - she identified Murat positively. From Kate's diary we already know she didn't like him.

The other unsubstantiated snippet I mentioned somewhere else this week, was that just before the Rothley meeting there seemed to be some of the T7 who were willing to come clean.

I rather like this scenario because there is such a thing as 'letting it happen on purpose' - whilst not purposely doing the deed, still making certain it is done.

So Kololi, unsubstantiated but simply gathering bits and pieces to see how they fit. The extra help from ROB and JT is significant.
JT's evidence changed with the wind direction - but also her helpful description of the pyjamas the child was wearing developed as the case developed, shoring up the testimony of the McCanns at every opportunity.

I sooo agree with your line 'I rather like this scenario because there is such a thing as 'letting it happen on purpose' - whilst not purposely doing the deed, still making certain it is done. '

This is what the e-mail was insinuating, I just can't find it, I've sifted through 30 pages of posts after searching through the portal, no luck unless I missed it [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

BUT I do recall the man who sent the e-mail (to whom, I can't recall) was from London and seemed to maybe know JT or her aquaintances.

If anyone can recall the e-mail/and or thread, PLEASE HELP![You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Kololi 09.04.12 17:31

Unsubstantiated and without proof so therefore it becomes discussion and opinion surely. As long as we don't wander and start to make the theory fit the crime we should all get along fine.

Where were they getting the medication for sedation? And please, don't say they are doctors as that won't wash.
It's some hold you have over another that you can train them to committ murder, demand they say nothing about it and then expect them to carry that secret to the grave.
Echoing Fred Up's comment - so what about the blood?

Jeez at a risk of a burning at the stake again and if you don't believe it then tough but I actually thought you meant Mrs McCann was training her to sedate her own children hence my question. Has nobody else been brought up or trained via their work to question what doesn't make sense to them?

by **tigger** 09.04.12 17:44

Kololi wrote:
It's some hold you have over another that you can train them to committ murder, demand they say nothing about it and then expect them to carry that secret to the grave. unquote

No that's exactly NOT what I was saying. If you have already dosed the victim but pretend you've not done so, the other person will easily be persuaded that the demise is their fault. In no way was - and this is theoretical in any case! - Kate training someone to commit murder.
I would think that getting the medicine would be easy enough, could probably just be bought at Boots over the counter.

The thing is Kololi, I am convinced Maddie died, that they wanted this to happen but I'm equally convinced they can persuade themselves it was an accident and they are not culpable.
In other words, I do not see either of them hitting the child or using any kind of force. Why should they? We have the family on record to tell us they routinely used Calpol.
I'm also convinced she had something wrong with her, for which she may have had medication as well. I don't think Maddie was ever a healthy child and withholding her health records was unprecedented in a police enquiry. So why?

by Kololi 09.04.12 18:04

Jane Tanner would have to be slower than I can be sometimes to be used in that way without sussing it out now surely.

And wasn't the calpol discussed a long while back?

I understand calpol to induce sleep only because it contains analgesia which obviously reduces the childs pain allowing it to sleep. I take a couple of paracetamol each night before bed due to a pain in my shoulder. The paracetamol doesn't make me sleep but just reduces the pain to a level where it doesn't keep me awake - hence not proper sleeping tablets like say Tamazepan used to be.

I am not sure that Calpol contains any actual sedative property. And Tigger you don't need training to give calpol just good eyesight to read the instructions and a sensible head. I know calpol is buyable over the counter but to sedate a child I am sure that you are going to need prescription medication not calpol.

by Nina 09.04.12 18:18

Do any of you young parents remember what colour calpol was in 2007? Was it the colour of milky tea?

by Kololi 09.04.12 18:20

Nina wrote:Do any of you young parents remember what colour calpol was in 2007? Was it the colour of milky tea?

Will have to pass on that one Nina - young and me don't go in the same sentence anymore!!!!

by sami 09.04.12 18:24

There are over the counter medications available that will cause a deep slumber and drowsiness in children, phenergan being one i could name immediately. For children of the ages of the McCanns it would need to be prescribed by a GP in order for the correct dosage to be established for their age, but this is not a problem in this case. So anybody can go into a chemist a buy it.

I personally know people who have used it on small children before flying, so they were "calm" during the flight. I have had it prescribed for a small child by my gp (for medical reasons). The warning I received from the doctor was to watch my child carefully - because of his age he was at risk of becomming wobbly while walking and could hit his head. He did indeed have a number of instances of loosing his balance at that time and hurting himself off furniture etc., thankfully not seriously.

I think the word Calpol was used by the Portugese in translation and perhaps not meant quite literally, it may have been that they were trying to say a childs medication as opposed to a particular brand or type.

Regardless, there is medication available over the counter that could indeed have ensured Madeleine and the twins slept and have caused her to become unbalanced thus hurting herself on a hard tiled floor.

@nina - Calpol is pink and was back then though calpol six plus is white. Neurofen, a brufen based product similar to calpol is milky white, and phenergan as i have mentioned above is a yellowish to clear liquid which leaves a hard, sticky, yellowish stain on clothes.

by Fred Up 09.04.12 18:27

Nina wrote:Do any of you young parents remember what colour calpol was in 2007? Was it the colour of milky tea?

Since I had my first 2 children in the 1990s and subsequently a "little late one" in 2009, Calpol has been bright pink in colour and contains only Paracetamol, so I fail to see how it can be given as a sedative these days. IIRC it did once have a mild sedative in it, but that was removed long before I had my kiddwinkles. Our Grannies used to give a nip of brandy or whisky to help aid sleep. You'd be locked up for less now. Maybe not...

by **tigger** 09.04.12 18:29

Kololi wrote:
Nina wrote:Do any of you young parents remember what colour calpol was in 2007? Was it the colour of milky tea?

Will have to pass on that one Nina - young and me don't go in the same sentence anymore!!!!

I think calpol is widely used to sedate children. Any form of paracetamol is bad for the liver - so I think you should start taking other medication Kololi!
It's OK for occasional use.

The other thing I've heard of is anti histamine tablets. They put me to sleep in no time! I think they're illegal to give to children as well.

Nina, you are cleverly thinking of the tea stain now that could have been milky and could also have been calpol? The wicked paedo coming in and dosing the children?

What I forgot to add to my other post: to add to Madeleine's possible illness: 'her fear of pain'. This line occurs several times in the diary. It would fit with a child who's being treated for something?

Mixing up the medication by accident on purpose doesn't seem to be an impossible theory. But a theory K!

by puzzled 09.04.12 18:30

tigger wrote: I don't think Maddie was ever a healthy child and withholding her health records was unprecedented in a police enquiry. So why?

I wonder, if it's routine in police inquiries to supply medical records, who would have the authority to withhold them?

by aiyoyo 09.04.12 18:32

Nina wrote:Do any of you young parents remember what colour calpol was in 2007? Was it the colour of milky tea?

Wasn't it a creamy solution pink in colour?

by Guest 09.04.12 18:38

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Not sure if this will answer the colour question - but there's a cute picture on the home page anyway!

by tuom 09.04.12 18:40

Nina wrote:Do any of you young parents remember what colour calpol was in 2007? Was it the colour of milky tea?

Its been a while since I used Calpol but I always thought it was a pinky colour...

by sami 09.04.12 18:41

aiyoyo wrote:
Nina wrote:Do any of you young parents remember what colour calpol was in 2007? Was it the colour of milky tea?

Wasn't it a creamy solution pink in colour?

I have carried out an experiement. I have put calpol 3months+, calpol 6 years+, neurofen 6+ and phenergan on a white top and dried it in front of the fire. The stain that is closest in colour to tea has been caused by phenergan. Neurofen is second closest but calpol is way off, it is very obviously pink.

by russiandoll 09.04.12 18:53

have read again and again elsewhere the misinformation that calpol is not a sedative.
It does however have sedative effects :

Alcohol or other potential sedating medicines should not be used concurrently with CalCold

as alcohol is not a medicine you can only infer from the above that because ref is made to OTHER sedating medicines, calpol is one of those and should not be used alongside a second medicine having the effect of sedation.

This product contains propylene glycol and may cause alcohol-like symptoms. Children should be supervised while on this medication.

May cause drowsiness, dizziness or blurred vision.
Symptoms of diphenhydramine overdose include drowsiness, hyperpyrexia and anticholinergic effects. In children, CNS excitation, including hallucinations and convulsions may appear; with larger doses, coma or cardiovascular collapse may follow.
unexpected tiredness is a symptom of overdose as is unexpected bruising....that skin discolouration on tennis photo and what about the remark in the book about Maddies unusual tiredness after creche afternoon 3rd?

imo it is entirely plausible that a doctor with knowledge of pharmaceutical side -effects might use this as an aid to sleep in a wakeful child and that accidental overdose is possible . It could also be argued that anyone wanting to over- sedate a child purposely could plausibly use this medicine to do so.

by tuom 09.04.12 18:59

sami wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
Nina wrote:Do any of you young parents remember what colour calpol was in 2007? Was it the colour of milky tea?

Wasn't it a creamy solution pink in colour?

I have carr

ied out an experiement. I have put calpol 3months+, calpol 6 years+, neurofen 6+ and phenergan on a white top and dried it in front of the fire. The stain that is closest in colour to tea has been caused by phenergan. Neurofen is second closest but calpol is way off, it is very obviously pink.

As with another poster I too have used Phernegan , one of mine had colic , it was a bad time, she nearly drove me to despair , even with the Phernegan she did not sleep well , however, it did make her very drowsy and my GP advised me not to leave her alone after giving it to her , as I noticed after giving it to her once , she didnt fall asleep but she was staggering all over the place !!! Happy to say she is now 27 and is unaffected by my doping of her [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by russiandoll 09.04.12 19:02

sami wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
Nina wrote:Do any of you young parents remember what colour calpol was in 2007? Was it the colour of milky tea?

Wasn't it a creamy solution pink in colour?

I have carried out an experiement. I have put calpol 3months+, calpol 6 years+, neurofen 6+ and phenergan on a white top and dried it in front of the fire. The stain that is closest in colour to tea has been caused by phenergan. Neurofen is second closest but calpol is way off, it is very obviously pink.

but did you rinse the top before drying as alleged by Kate? might have made a difference to the end result colourwise.

by dentdelion 09.04.12 19:07

Calpol in 1980's was a lurid pink and very sticky syrup like substance. Definitely no sedative included then ... just mild pain killer to ease with teething. I had to travel by air at night with small child once and explored Phenergran only to be advised to stay clear of it by an eminent medical person as it could cause the opposite effect to sedation ie hyperactivity. I can imagine how a child could be inadvertently 'overdosed' if one parent gave a dose without other's knowledge. They were out of their normal routine and environment... perhaps there was some sweet as an inducement and child happy to have another dose?

by sami 09.04.12 19:12

russiandoll wrote: have read again and again elsewhere the misinformation that calpol is not a sedative.
It does however have sedative effects :

Alcohol or other potential sedating medicines should not be used concurrently with CalCold

as alcohol is not a medicine you can only infer from the above that because ref is made to OTHER sedating medicines, calpol is one of those and should not be used alongside a second medicine having the effect of sedation.

This product contains propylene glycol and may cause alcohol-like symptoms. Children should be supervised while on this medication.

May cause drowsiness, dizziness or blurred vision.
Symptoms of diphenhydramine overdose include drowsiness, hyperpyrexia and anticholinergic effects. In children, CNS excitation, including hallucinations and convulsions may appear; with larger doses, coma or cardiovascular collapse may follow.
unexpected tiredness is a symptom of overdose as is unexpected bruising....that skin discolouration on tennis photo and what about the remark in the book about Maddies unusual tiredness after creche afternoon 3rd?

imo it is entirely plausible that a doctor with knowledge of pharmaceutical side -effects might use this as an aid to sleep in a wakeful child and that accidental overdose is possible . It could also be argued that anyone wanting to over- sedate a child purposely could plausibly use this medicine to do so.

Hello Russiandoll. I would agree with your post, however I think there are other medications that would require less of a dosage. Some children do not like taking medication.
In fact the product Dozol that was on the market a few years ago was given in preference to Calpol because its sedative effects were more successful. It was used particularly at night and for children while they were teething. I could be wrong but I think it has since either been withdrawn from market or the age for use increased significantly due to its over use by parents.
It may require quite an amount of Calpol to have extreme effects and sometimes it is just not that easy to get a child to take a large volume of liquid.

No I did not wash the top before drying it. I thought that was the point. I understood Kate saw the stain in the morning and wondered had it come from the night before. It would have been dry when she saw it and it was she who likened it to tea. From everyday experience I know if i wash the top, the stain will be gone.

by russiandoll 09.04.12 19:19

of course you did not wash the top...........how stupid of me to ask !! been answering too many posts and reading too much, of course it needed to be seen dried-in, pre wash, just like Kate described !
thanks for the reminder..
re calpol.....it was mentioned specifically as a brand by the PJ, wasn't it? So I dont think it was translated in error from what had been a generic mention of a medicine..?