Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

by rainbow-fairy 15.01.12 23:21

Praia wrote:Remember Uncle John's tearjerking comments that when they dressed Amelie in the Disney night clothes the little one cried "Maddie's jammies, Maddie's jammies. "
In the bewk Healy says it is disrespectful to call her Maddie, so where did Amelie hear it.

They are desperate to keep her known as Madeleine. Kiki's theory makes sense.

Exactly, Praia... My Dad has a saying 'Out of the mouths of babes come the words of adults', in other words they parrot what they have heard. It makes you wonder why, if its so disrespectful to call Madeleine 'Maddie' why its ok to call Sean 'Seany'? Its right there in the bewk!
Still, I guess we should remember it's a work of fiction... Wink

by Advocatus 15.01.12 23:43

kikoraton wrote:If I have it right (and I'm still researching) the girl who substituted for Madeleine was about 6 months younger, and I have a photographic indication that she may have been small for her age. I don't have any indication that her fore-name was ever shortened to Maddie. I'm pretty sure her mother and her school always knew her, and still do, as Mad*lene. (What she is called at home, I have no idea). It seems to fit the "90cm + never wanted to be called Maddie" story rather well.

I'll post the who-entered-the McC-kids-into-creche data on The Creche Records thread. ETA: no, I shan't. It's locked. But if you can find it under Research and Analysis, you'll see that Stella has made two charts showing details of sign-ins.

I'm pretty sure her mother and her school always knew her, and still do, as Mad*lene.

Didn't Gerry make a mistake at the Leveson show when he gave the same shortened pronunciation of Madeleine?

It's all there on video...

Also backs up all the pre-planted alibi poppycock that 'we never called her Maddie'...

by Praia 15.01.12 23:48

It was the bewk that made me join the forum. The out and out lies were too much. I got a free copy and it broke my heart the way Portugal and the PJ are portrayed.
Tomorrow I will give some examples of were she raises red flags and try and look at what she wants us to believe, then we should look the other way
eg the pink trainers and being bitten by a dog on her run with Matt. She says she was shaken but kept running.
Surely a GP bitten or nipped by a stray dog would know to seek medical aid.
The area has lots of stray dog's and they scare me. I was bitten by a dog years ago and was treated in Casualty.
I limped for days, it hurts! So what was Healy covering up, why mention it. TM are always creating back stories, we need to consider why.
I could write a thesis on it.

by Advocatus 15.01.12 23:50

Praia wrote:Remember Uncle John's tearjerking comments that when they dressed Amelie in the Disney night clothes the little one cried "Maddie's jammies, Maddie's jammies. "
In the bewk Healy says it is disrespectful to call her Maddie, so where did Amelie hear it.

They are desperate to keep her known as Madeleine. Kiki's theory makes sense.

I agree Praia. There is a ¥reason¥ for the insistence on the full name rather than the shortened name Maddie. Everything that looks a little 'off' or skewy, or over-emphasised, even when they think they are being subtle, to the experts, they are just posting red flags with big fat mallets! lol4

by Advocatus 16.01.12 0:01

Praia wrote:It was the bewk that made me join the forum. The out and out lies were too much. I got a free copy and it broke my heart the way Portugal and the PJ are portrayed.
Tomorrow I will give some examples of were she raises red flags and try and look at what she wants us to believe, then we should look the other way
eg the pink trainers and being bitten by a dog on her run with Matt. She says she was shaken but kept running.
Surely a GP bitten or nipped by a stray dog would know to seek medical aid.
The area has lots of stray dog's and they scare me. I was bitten by a dog years ago and was treated in Casualty.
I limped for days, it hurts! So what was Healy covering up, why mention it. TM are always creating back stories, we need to consider why.
I could write a thesis on it.

Lol Praia, I'm happy you got a free copy of the bewk (how did you wangle that?) - I had to pay for it. As you say, it is full of various tells and misdirections.

I found the first 100 pages agony, as there were so many blatant lies, easily disproved in court.

I can only imagine a very very VERY senior partner within Carter-Ruck signed off on and approved the 'inaccurate' wordage in this fictional 'bewk'.

He or She would have done better to let one of the gerbils in the local petting zoo do the copy-editing task.

Tut tut tut. lol4

by Praia 16.01.12 0:02

i will post up more examples tomorrow. The blog, statements, roggies, bewk, interview to start with. Like I said a thesis. If I can add anything with local info. I will.

by Advocatus 16.01.12 0:10

Praia wrote:i will post up more examples tomorrow. The blog, statements, roggies, bewk, interview to start with. Like I said a thesis. If I can add anything with local info. I will.

Superb. I have a lot of local info questions to ask of you.

For example, I've always wondered, why wasn't the child gate used at the top of the stairs at apt 5a?

I think I read somewhere this was broken - yet the mccanns had maintenance in on day one to check the shutters? If the gate was broken, get them to fix it!

In the pro McCann book vanished, Wallace says that Maddie got out of the apt one night, ran down the stairs and hid in all the gardens, for close to an hour,,,

Any normal parent would insist on a child gate, and if it was missing, ripped off its hinges, get mark Warner to put one in immediately.

Cheers

A

by Praia 16.01.12 0:18

Going to bed now. But certainly in the days following the third a neighbour of 5A told locals that a little girl had caused a commotion early in the week and hid in the bushes nearby. It was assumed to be Madeleine but if Kiko and Stella's research is right maybe it was another loud English child. The police were told I believe.

by Advocatus 16.01.12 0:24

Praia wrote:Going to bed now. But certainly in the days following the third a neighbour of 5A told locals that a little girl had caused a commotion early in the week and hid in the bushes nearby. It was assumed to be Madeleine but if Kiko and Stella's research is right maybe it was another loud English child. The police were told I believe.

Thanks Praia! Excellent information. I recommend you read Vanished, by Danny Wallace, that is where I got the info about a little girl lost in the dark that week, just a scamp being mischievous and playing hide and seek, but the locals were talking about it to Danny Wallace.

Good night.

by Advocatus 16.01.12 0:31

Praia wrote:Going to bed now. But certainly in the days following the third a neighbour of 5A told locals that a little girl had caused a commotion early in the week and hid in the bushes nearby. It was assumed to be Madeleine but if Kiko and Stella's research is right maybe it was another loud English child. The police were told I believe.

Hi again

Just noticed your words

The local gossip was that it was Maddie that was hiding in the gardens BEFORE the third...

Anyways, the child gate..,

And that wouldnt help a jot if the sliding doors were left unlocked, open or closed

As a child of maddies age could easily climb over and fall off the balcony

Cadaverine was found in flowers/shrubs

Any chance the cadaverine location in the shrubs was below a possible 15 foot fall?

by jd 16.01.12 0:53

I am very sure the locals know the truth. We hope that they will speak out despite their fears. Together with the huge body of people in the UK seeking justice for Maddie, freedom of speech, and respect back to PDL we need to know what they know to be able to go further

by Praia 16.01.12 1:04

Forget the child gate. Look at pictures of the steps, as you ascend them on your right is a wall, mainly a railing. Beside the railings are plastic chairs. No problem for a toddler up, to get on the chair, lean over the rails and fall onto th steep concrete stairs. While those chairs are there beside a low railing no child is safe.

by Advocatus 16.01.12 2:50

jd wrote:I am very sure the locals know the truth. We hope that they will speak out despite their fears. Together with the huge body of people in the UK seeking justice for Maddie, freedom of speech, and respect back to PDL we need to know what they know to be able to go further

Exactly!!! We can not rely 100pc on certain folks in authority, many at the mid and vey top levels are corrupt. The ones that know it is all corrupt, they deal with it in their own way, they have families to support.

The 'system' really is quite something to behold, once you can see what is going on.

The ONLY way for change and justice is a groundswell of opinion and facts, as evidenced on this site, to make the leap to the general public, middle England, the mass consciousness.

IMHO attitudes to the maccanns have shifted rather quickly in the last year or so, especially since the fictional bewk was born.

Was it an IVC-FF process, I wonder? lol4

Once the paperback edition banned wagon (I wish) gets rolling in April, I predict a very serious backlash.

TM had better be on top form!!!!!!!

"You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time." bomb

by Advocatus 16.01.12 3:04

Praia wrote:Forget the child gate. Look at pictures of the steps, as you ascend them on your right is a wall, mainly a railing. Beside the railings are plastic chairs. No problem for a toddler up, to get on the chair, lean over the rails and fall onto th steep concrete stairs. While those chairs are there beside a low railing no child is safe.

I totally agree!!! So I am a parent with a four year old daughter. For a start, she comes everywhere with me, on holiday, end of story. The Spanish Portuguese etc cherish their children, and bring them to restaurants all the time, even late. So do most Brits, and if they want to get pissed, they hire a babysitter. With 9 there, they could have shared babysitting costs, maybe just 2-3 at 10 an hour.

Peanuts.

OK segue to 5a in Luz. Pretend I am negligent, like the McCann parents (I read yesterday 14 bottles of wine were drunk on the evening of the 3rd, totally astonishing IMHO if true), the parents are doctors, they KNOW the dangers, they know Maddie has a habit of getting up out of bed after being tucked in (which never happened, apparently), the very LAST thing you do is leave the verandah doors unlocked.

Even criminally negligent Parents would have 5a locked up solid.

by **tigger** 16.01.12 6:03

Praia wrote:Kikoraton and Stella i have followed your research and think you are close to what could have happened.
I think 5J was certainly in play.

Do you think that it was occupied of just used? Occupied by the sub and her parents? Because if it is private property, there is no particular reason why anyone at OC or even the cleaner would know.
And by the way welcome

!

by russiandoll 16.01.12 12:51

Advocatus wrote:
Praia wrote:i will post up more examples tomorrow. The blog, statements, roggies, bewk, interview to start with. Like I said a thesis. If I can add anything with local info. I will.

Superb. I have a lot of local info questions to ask of you.

For example, I've always wondered, why wasn't the child gate used at the top of the stairs at apt 5a?

I think I read somewhere this was broken - yet the mccanns had maintenance in on day one to check the shutters? If the gate was broken, get them to fix it!

In the pro McCann book vanished, Wallace says that Maddie got out of the apt one night, ran down the stairs and hid in all the gardens, for close to an hour,,,

Any normal parent would insist on a child gate, and if it was missing, ripped off its hinges, get mark Warner to put one in immediately.

Cheers

Well according to Kate in her book it was used and its use was why her intelligence was insulted by the suggestion that Maddie could have wandered off. She would have had to close that gate after opening it, before that she would have had to close both the patio doors and the curtains behind them [ we have to infer due to her not saying so, that this is how Kate found 5a at 10pm].
It would be good to know if there is any statement anywhere or reliable info about this gate being damaged...because there it is in the book that it was in use.
Kate does not mention of course the other safety issue if the gate is locked tight : that Maddie would have been invisibe from a dangerous veranda, and probably inaudible given the noise that would have come from diners chatting maybe loudly at the tapas [maybe even with background music]... how would Maddie, if she opened those patio doors, have been able to alert her parents to an emergency?

I don't believe Maddie wandered off either Kate. The one and only part of your book that I do agree with.

A

by Praia 16.01.12 15:10

Tigger I would think privately owned. The dogs were onto something imo.

by Guest 16.01.12 15:23

We know nothing about 5J. The OC cleaner for block 5, does not clean that apartment. Incidentally, it appears to be the end apartment and directly above and below it i.e., 5F, 5N and 5Q the cleaner does not tend to either. So I would hazzard a guess, that all of them are either lived in, or never rented out. The PJ said that no one has used 5J for quite some time...

by Guest 16.01.12 16:09

Yes Praia. I just do not get why the McCann's would book an extra bed if they knowingly paid for a T2. It makes no sense.

Are those blue sofas in the living room sofa beds, or just plain old sofas?

by Praia 16.01.12 16:40

Look at picture 15 in the files for what I talked about y'day re. steps, child gate, rails, chair. Does not matter if the gate was used or not when there are low railings and a chair beside them.

Sofa beds, I asked someone who works with them all the time. Cant tell from photo. but probable. Apts can have what looks like two identical sofa's, one is a sofa bed. If the owner gave it to MW for rental it would be expected.
Many private owners have them to accommodate family etc. Lots of people livinig here have one for same reason.

Now I agree, go with what FP says, the McCanns were worried about cost, makes sense to order T1.

by kikoraton 16.01.12 18:46

Do we know what date it was when the child hid in bushes? If it caused such concern, then surely someone would have mentioned "X and Y and their friends could be seen searching for the child". Did this happen?
According to my theory, Madeleine didn't survive the first night. Therefore, if it were her, it would have to have been the evening of 28 April. Whilst with my theory, it's worth remembering that, for a replacement to have been in place, Madeleine's fate must have been pre-meditated.
5J? Dunno. As I see it, Liz Naylor's father never signed her in, and probably absented himself from the creche area. The Naylors' apartment was in the same block as the Lobster Group. (Naylor wouldn't have attended, because Gerry signed his child, Liz, in). I believe that the other adult who went with GM to the sign-in book was Mad'lene's father. Thus, I can visualise that GM and Mad'lene and her father met up somewhere and made their way to the Lobster room. The closer to 5A that GM could have linked up with Mad'lene, the better for appearances.

by monkey mind 16.01.12 19:16

kikoraton wrote:Do we know what date it was when the child hid in bushes? If it caused such concern, then surely someone would have mentioned "X and Y and their friends could be seen searching for the child". Did this happen?
According to my theory, Madeleine didn't survive the first night. Therefore, if it were her, it would have to have been the evening of 28 April. Whilst with my theory, it's worth remembering that, for a replacement to have been in place, Madeleine's fate must have been pre-meditated.
5J? Dunno. As I see it, Liz Naylor's father never signed her in, and probably absented himself from the creche area. The Naylors' apartment was in the same block as the Lobster Group. (Naylor wouldn't have attended, because Gerry signed his child, Liz, in). I believe that the other adult who went with GM to the sign-in book was Mad'lene's father. Thus, I can visualise that GM and Mad'lene and her father met up somewhere and made their way to the Lobster room. The closer to 5A that GM could have linked up with Mad'lene, the better for appearances.

Kiko, that’s the thing isn’t it, if your theory is correct, and personally speaking it looks pretty solid to me – at the very least there is some serious explaining due those crèche entries, then if the theory is correct an accident of any shape is out of the question. Plans had to have been made well in advance - and if one can accept that may have happened then your theory becomes very acceptable indeed, and the plan, though seemingly complicated, elegant in its simplicity.

by kikoraton 16.01.12 19:48

As for the reason behind it all, I'm not yet clear. Paedophilia seems to be indicated, but (apart from losing a participant thru snuff movies) why would it account for all these shenanigans? Why not just do it, go home, and anticipate the next time? Could it be that the photos which are causing us to think of paedophilia were altered (with make-up etc) to lead us up that garden path?
I'm more inclined to think of medical research/experiment involving some high academics, Govt-funded research councils/bodies etc. Maybe (????) Maddie's life had to end, but that wasn't enough, and the McCs got greedy. Hence early death, substitution, 5 days to prepare the "abduction" deceit. I really don't know, but I'm darn sure Gerry falsified the records with the help of Robert Naylor. And that that started on the morning of 29 April.

by **tigger** 16.01.12 20:21

kikoraton wrote:As for the reason behind it all, I'm not yet clear. Paedophilia seems to be indicated, but (apart from losing a participant thru snuff movies) why would it account for all these shenanigans? Why not just do it, go home, and anticipate the next time? Could it be that the photos which are causing us to think of paedophilia were altered (with make-up etc) to lead us up that garden path?
I'm more inclined to think of medical research/experiment involving some high academics, Govt-funded research councils/bodies etc. Maybe (????) Maddie's life had to end, but that wasn't enough, and the McCs got greedy. Hence early death, substitution, 5 days to prepare the "abduction" deceit. I really don't know, but I'm darn sure Gerry falsified the records with the help of Robert Naylor. And that that started on the morning of 29 April.

I really don't think so, men may not notice it but an awful lot of photo's show eye makeup, which is very hard to do well on photoshop. No, for me, paedo is a big part of this but not likely the main part. I think a number of people could be 'used' as John McCann so neatly said, (see forensic linguistics), when calling in favours. Then there's the fact that Gerry lost his credit card, the mortgage had to be paid from the fund and a Cat registration? They indicated clearly that they meant to stay in Portugal. Had the UK been getting too hot for them?
I'm still going for the microchipping. Big, big money that would have netted the McCanns heaps more than the paltry few million they actually got.
But far more than that, it could have made G an MP, a roving ambassador for children's security, etc.
The moment it broke, they certainly behaved like that, especially Gerry, lecturing MP's, meeting - to his chagrin - only with a member of staff at the White House. The Pope, when 'Rome was preparing itself for their visit' - shades of megalomania.
I think the abduction was entirely their production - with a view of getting into the big time. But definitely planned.
Right at the start, Gerry was more like Mr. Toad than anything else. Did Kate think she was going to be the new Diana? Taking the time to select the right earrings - cute little bows in her hair, little girl clothes. (you men never notice this?) No wonder they hate Amaral - without the PJ it would have worked fine.

by Advocatus 17.01.12 0:26

Superb. I have a lot of local info questions to ask of you.

For example, I've always wondered, why wasn't the child gate used at the top of the stairs at apt 5a?

I think I read somewhere this was broken - yet the mccanns had maintenance in on day one to check the shutters? If the gate was broken, get them to fix it!

In the pro McCann book vanished, Wallace says that Maddie got out of the apt one night, ran down the stairs and hid in all the gardens, for close to an hour,,,

Any normal parent would insist on a child gate, and if it was missing, ripped off its hinges, get mark Warner to put one in immediately.

Cheers

Thanks for this!

Well according to Kate in her book it was used and its use was why her intelligence was insulted by the suggestion that Maddie could have wandered off.

But the locals say she DID wander off, earlier in the week. Maddie was of an age where she could slide the verandah doors open, maybe even unlock them, if it is just a simple lever. And TM admit the doors WERE unlocked.

More negligence then.

And of an age to cause herself harm getting *around* a safety gate, imho (IF ONE WAS THERE). That patio area should have been screened off with very thin mosquito type metal see-through 'netting' that is used extensively in the USA. A determined child could easily go over the balcony and suffer serious injury or death.

She would have had to close that gate after opening it, before that she would have had to close both the patio doors and the curtains behind them [ we have to infer due to her not saying so, that this is how Kate found 5a at 10pm].

Precisely. But I've also noticed that nowhere in any PJ or rogatory interviews anyone AT ALL stating that they had to fumble in the dark with a bothersome child gate when going to do the 'check' on the children. And if you entered by the outside stairs, nothing in the interviews about the hassle of the child gate back getting OUT, either. Maybe I'm wrong and have missed these child gate reports...???

It would be good to know if there is any statement anywhere or reliable info about this gate being damaged...because there it is in the book that it was in use.

Yes. I'm sure I have see one or two general type photos of the outside of 5a, taken from the middle of the road. I think I've even seen one photo showing the gate hanging awkwardly, captioned as broken...I've also found something interesting in "Vanished" book by Danny Wallace, quite ODD in fact...

See the photos at page 136:

The 'MISSING child gate' photo is captioned:

Below: the stairs to the rear patio. Note that the child gate supplied by Ocean Club was removed from the top of the stairs

No WHY would Danny Wallace in this TM-approved book slip this photo in, with the emphasis on blaming the OC for the gate's removal?

Now this is interesting.

Exactly WHEN was the gate removed, allegedly by the OC?

And more to the point, WHY?

Surely subsequent renters would want a child gate?

If Kate moans in her bewk about the gate, how come it is barely mentioned in any interviews with anyone?

I don't seem to recall anything about the PJ dusting the gate (if it was ever there, or not, broken, removed or wtf???) - maybe my memory is playing up. But if indeed a kidnapper did get in via the unlocked sliding doors he would have to fumble past a child gate first, in the gloom/dark, once, maybe twice, and carrying a child? Oh no, of course kidnapper and child went out the window, not leaving a disturbance on the windowsill lichen... But I don't buy any of that fairytale anyway.

In Vanished, page xxxviii, MO's checking of his own kids via outside stairs (no child gate mentioned at M Oldfield's apt either), then at 9.45pm checking 5a, again via the stairs, NO MENTION of negotiating a child gate.

Page xxxix DW says KM did a check "after 10pm", her curtain call - "Jose Baptista was surprised by her departure: he had never known her to check on the children before."

Then also, KM enters through the patio doors, "On mounting the steps and sliding open the unlocked patio door, Kate was struck by a sense of stillness." No mention of a pesky child gate.

Kate does not mention of course the other safety issue if the gate is locked tight : that Maddie would have been invisibe from a dangerous veranda, and probably inaudible given the noise that would have come from diners chatting maybe loudly at the tapas [maybe even with background music]... how would Maddie, if she opened those patio doors, have been able to alert her parents to an emergency?

Precisely. And I would have thought there would be plastic tables/chairs there, all Maddie would have to do is drag a chair over to the balcony wall, stand on it, and... dear oh dear, doesn't bear thinking about...

I don't believe Maddie wandered off either Kate. The one and only part of your book that I do agree with.

Funny you should say that, because that is Danny Wallace's conclusion after 262 pages, Maddie wandered down the stairs and was snatched by a passing low-life paedophile, or to be sold on for easy money...

No wonder TM gave him the green light for his book. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]