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Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Praia on 17.01.12 14:20

I have read virtually every word printed re Madeleine. The PJ focused there for a reason. I find it helpful to look at the files, what questions the PJ asked especially the Rog. Int.
eg the seven were asked to describe the layout of the apt. for a good reason.

Also the argiudo questions were carefully formatted, they had to be.

The PJ had the eyes of the world on them - all the questions had reasoning behind them.

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 17.01.12 15:00

I agree about the layout questions. This is how we know Tanner was in a T2, yet booked into a T1.

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 17.01.12 15:13

@Praia wrote:I have read virtually every word printed re Madeleine. The PJ focused there for a reason. I find it helpful to look at the files, what questions the PJ asked especially the Rog. Int.
eg the seven were asked to describe the layout of the apt. for a good reason.

Also the arguido questions were carefully formatted, they had to be.

The PJ had the eyes of the world on them - all the questions had reasoning behind them.
Exactly, Praia... They weren't asking them the layout just to see if they approved of the colour schemes!
I think a lot came up in the Rogatories, as you say - eg the 'non-existent tennis bag'. Its funny really, even though the Tapas crew had plenty of time to get their stories straight, they STILL managed to drop themselves in it! Wink

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by jd on 17.01.12 15:22

@rainbow-fairy wrote: Its funny really, even though the Tapas crew had plenty of time to get their stories straight, they STILL managed to drop themselves in it! Wink

I think we can assume this is why Murat said "this is the biggest c**kup in history"!!

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Praia on 17.01.12 15:25

In Cristavao's book, Estrela de Madeleine, he says they were interested in two of the seven and their answers to the Rog. Int.'s. They were all asked the same but they were focusing on two.
Those questions are important clues for us as I said elsewhere.

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by jd on 17.01.12 15:27

@Praia wrote:In Cristavao's book, Estrela de Madeleine, he says they were interested in two of the seven and their answers to the Rog. Int.'s. They were all asked the same but they were focusing on two.
Those questions are important clues for us as I said elsewhere.

i think its quite clear who the 2 were...you know, you know, its...erm you know,payne you know and you know,i-I-Its you know erm tanner you know...yes I got there in the end, phew!

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Angelique on 17.01.12 15:28

@Advocatus wrote:
@monkey mind wrote:
@kikoraton wrote:Do we know what date it was when the child hid in bushes? If it caused such concern, then surely someone would have mentioned "X and Y and their friends could be seen searching for the child". Did this happen?
According to my theory, Madeleine didn't survive the first night. Therefore, if it were her, it would have to have been the evening of 28 April. Whilst with my theory, it's worth remembering that, for a replacement to have been in place, Madeleine's fate must have been pre-meditated.
5J? Dunno. As I see it, Liz Naylor's father never signed her in, and probably absented himself from the creche area. The Naylors' apartment was in the same block as the Lobster Group. (Naylor wouldn't have attended, because Gerry signed his child, Liz, in). I believe that the other adult who went with GM to the sign-in book was Mad'lene's father. Thus, I can visualise that GM and Mad'lene and her father met up somewhere and made their way to the Lobster room. The closer to 5A that GM could have linked up with Mad'lene, the better for appearances.
Kiko, that’s the thing isn’t it, if your theory is correct, and personally speaking it looks pretty solid to me – at the very least there is some serious explaining due those crèche entries, then if the theory is correct an accident of any shape is out of the question. Plans had to have been made well in advance - and if one can accept that may have happened then your theory becomes very acceptable indeed, and the plan, though seemingly complicated, elegant in its simplicity.

Hi monkey mind,


This angle: ...if the theory is correct an accident of any shape is out of the question. Plans had to have been made well in advance - and if one can accept that
may have happened then your theory becomes very acceptable indeed, and
the plan, though seemingly complicated, elegant in its simplicity.

This is where I get stuck. If there was no accident, and no dead body stored behind the sofa, moved to a cupboard, all as evidenced by the EVRD dog, + the firm DNA match to Maddie in the Scenic, what do you think the scenario may have been? Or are you saying we are talking about a planned homicide, on the 28th, and the blood splatter (well, under the tiles at least + the Renault) and cadaverine evidence still stand?

Cheers!

How about this thesis : A "planned abduction" which was in reality an "agreed unofficial adoption" that went wrong.

It would account for Kate saying "They've taken her" and the mention of "a couple took her."

Say Madeleine wasn't willing to go with "this couple" and the accident/injuries" happened and the McCanns discovered Madeleine on their return to the apartment (this could have been on the 28th/29th whenever, even during the day). This may account for the slip-ups because the original plan of an abduction had to be ditched to cover what was now "a death."

Just thinking out loud.

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by jd on 17.01.12 15:32

I am subscribing to the adoption theory more. It was very strange for Xmas 2005 they sent Maddie on her own to a relative while they stayed at home with the twins. First Xmas they could all be together as a family of 5 and they send Maddie off to Scotland....very odd indeed

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Miraflores on 17.01.12 15:36

@jd wrote:I am subscribing to the adoption theory more. It was very strange for Xmas 2005 they sent Maddie on her own to a relative while they stayed at home with the twins. First Xmas they could all be together as a family of 5 and they send Maddie off to Scotland....very odd indeed

Do we know that they did this?

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Praia on 17.01.12 15:39

Hi Angelique, was looking forward to talking with you. I remember you joining and your thoughts always interest me.
I am glad people have picked up on Madeleine spending the twin's first Christmas with her grieving Granny McCann.

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by jd on 17.01.12 15:41

Eileen said: "Madeleine was in my heart from that very first day.
"She was born on a Tuesday and I went down to see her on the Friday.
"I felt I had a really special bond with her.
"One night I took her into my bed to let Gerry and Kate get a sleep and it was just lovely having her lying there next to me.
"When I couldn't get to see her, I would speak to her on the phone."
One of those calls is particularly strong in Eileen's memory.
She said: "When she was two, Madeleine spent Christmas at my house and it was lovely.
"The next year, the family came up for New Year but on Christmas Day Madeleine called and said she'd got a kitchen from Santa. She was very excited and said 'I'm going to make some tea'."

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/2008/04/27/madeleine-mccann-s-gran-on-the-family-s-year-of-tears-78057-20395732/

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Angelique on 17.01.12 15:51

@Praia wrote:Hi Angelique, was looking forward to talking with you. I remember you joining and your thoughts always interest me.
I am glad people have picked up on Madeleine spending the twin's first Christmas with her grieving Granny McCann.

Hello Praia hello

Many thanks for your greeting - I am a relatively new poster here and still have much to read up on - I also find your posts are suggesting alternatives.

Yes, I think Madeleine's position within the family is definitely an important issue as well.

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Advocatus on 17.01.12 16:02

Hi rainbow-fairy,


Advocatus,
Please take this in the spirit it is intended - I don't think quoting from/reading Danny Wallace's book is going to help you much! I haven't read it, and wouldn't read it if the extract above you quoted is accurate.

Don't worry, whilst I know that most of the stuff in this rather shoddily
and very fastly churned-out puff pieces is imho crapola (1 or 2 out of 10, just for clanger value), and it was only 4 quid, nevertheless my method when researching is to
try and read all the accounts, even from the pro-McCann hired liars and
twisters. I've also just read "Faked Abduction" by Steve Marsden (special import from the USA, 23 quid, 9 out of 10), now THAT is well worth the time to read. And of course I had to fork out for the bewk. (0 out of 10 for bad fiction, 10-10 for clanger value
but it IS going to be EXHIBIT A)...

D Wallace didn't know 3-4 years ago the course of events taking place
now, and imho has made a fair few clangers (probably thought to be
helpful to the McCanns, but now, not so helpful)... the book was
signed-off by the McCann lawyers, so presumably TM approved of
everything in the book, at least, and Wallace is one of the few McCann authors
not being sued!



'Local gossip?' - hardly the best premise to base your book on...


Actually he writes ten pages of conclusions, and goes quickly through the possibilities, then comes out with the Maddie wandered off theory and was abducted by a passer-by gypsy or somesuch...
I regard this book just as much a fiction as Kate's bewk!

But still useful. His clangers, he could be called in as a prosecution witness, for example...



Ok he used Pamela Fenn's statement, but he b****


Yup...


it to fit his own theory (ie woke, wandered, snatched). As you rightly say, Mrs Fenn NOWHERE states Madeleine was a 'fractious child'. Not only that Wallace has stated she 'heard Maddie crying' - no she didn't - again, Wallace has come to his own conclusion, bent to fit his theory.
We have NO PROOF it was Maddie cried, could've been another child, a recording even. There is even a possibility it was Kate, crying for her Maddie, stopping when G returned...
IMO 'Vanished' is doing you no favours at all!


Yes and what she thought was 'Daddy! Daddy', may through the muffled walls have been Kate crying 'Maddie! Maddie!'...


I agree with everything you say above, but remember, Team McCann read it and approved it, so you can draw your own conclusions from that!

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Advocatus on 17.01.12 16:09

Stewie wrote:This foto was taken by the pj on 4 may . Foto 15 shows the stair gate. Foot 16 shows theverandah towards the parents bedroom . The low wall would be easy to stand on then a climb over the railings with a big drop below into the garden of 5a .


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_21.jpg


Many thanks Stewie, the more one learns, the more shocking the neglect becomes, were Maddie alive or dead by the 3rd...

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Advocatus on 17.01.12 16:17

@joyce1938 wrote:Just another thought ,the time maddie ran off ,i am sure i have seen writen ,that it was when she had been collected and on way back to their apt. and she diverted having some fun with dad,so she took another route ?I dont think i have ever thought that she was prone to being alone when out?joyce1938


Hi joyce1938, I remember reading somewhere recently the EXACT same explanation for at least ONE incident, Maddie ran on ahead and didn't want to go home/bed, in which case presumably it would not have been fully dark by then, assuming bed-time is 7.30ish?

That may be the same incident Wallace talks about, or it may be another?

Maybe someone can find a link to this episode.

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 17.01.12 17:35

@Advocatus wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Just another thought ,the time maddie ran off ,i am sure i have seen writen ,that it was when she had been collected and on way back to their apt. and she diverted having some fun with dad,so she took another route ?I dont think i have ever thought that she was prone to being alone when out?joyce1938


Hi joyce1938, I remember reading somewhere recently the EXACT same explanation for at least ONE incident, Maddie ran on ahead and didn't want to go home/bed, in which case presumably it would not have been fully dark by then, assuming bed-time is 7.30ish?

That may be the same incident Wallace talks about, or it may be another?

Maybe someone can find a link to this episode.


This from GM's witness statement 10th May.................


That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they were leaving the residence through the main door, to place the children in the respective crèches, MADELEINE left running to the left, to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they walked down next to the most remote end of one of those blocks, not knowing exactly which one, and the three children got into one of the gardens at the back. Then they walked down the inside alley at the back, next to the hedges, up to the street that led to the secondary reception.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta1

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Advocatus on 17.01.12 17:56

candyfloss wrote:
@Advocatus wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Just another thought ,the time maddie ran off ,i am sure i have seen writen ,that it was when she had been collected and on way back to their apt. and she diverted having some fun with dad,so she took another route ?I dont think i have ever thought that she was prone to being alone when out?joyce1938


Hi joyce1938, I remember reading somewhere recently the EXACT same explanation for at least ONE incident, Maddie ran on ahead and didn't want to go home/bed, in which case presumably it would not have been fully dark by then, assuming bed-time is 7.30ish?

That may be the same incident Wallace talks about, or it may be another?

Maybe someone can find a link to this episode.


This from GM's witness statement 10th May.................


That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they were leaving the residence through the main door, to place the children in the respective crèches, MADELEINE left running to the left, to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they walked down next to the most remote end of one of those blocks, not knowing exactly which one, and the three children got into one of the gardens at the back. Then they walked down the inside alley at the back, next to the hedges, up to the street that led to the secondary reception.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta1


Many thanks candyfloss

I *think* that may have been it, but I have a feeling there is yet another one out there...

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 17.01.12 18:01

@Advocatus wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
@Advocatus wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Just another thought ,the time maddie ran off ,i am sure i have seen writen ,that it was when she had been collected and on way back to their apt. and she diverted having some fun with dad,so she took another route ?I dont think i have ever thought that she was prone to being alone when out?joyce1938


Hi joyce1938, I remember reading somewhere recently the EXACT same explanation for at least ONE incident, Maddie ran on ahead and didn't want to go home/bed, in which case presumably it would not have been fully dark by then, assuming bed-time is 7.30ish?

That may be the same incident Wallace talks about, or it may be another?

Maybe someone can find a link to this episode.


This from GM's witness statement 10th May.................


That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they were leaving the residence through the main door, to place the children in the respective crèches, MADELEINE left running to the left, to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they walked down next to the most remote end of one of those blocks, not knowing exactly which one, and the three children got into one of the gardens at the back. Then they walked down the inside alley at the back, next to the hedges, up to the street that led to the secondary reception.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta1


Many thanks candyfloss

I *think* that may have been it, but I have a feeling there is yet another one out there...


The twins were 2 years and 3/4 months old at the time, could they run away that fast nah

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 18.01.12 8:19

@jd wrote:I am subscribing to the adoption theory more. It was very strange for Xmas 2005 they sent Maddie on her own to a relative while they stayed at home with the twins. First Xmas they could all be together as a family of 5 and they send Maddie off to Scotland....very odd indeed
This is a very important point, jd...
IMO, Maddie was not a child loved in the right way by her parents. I have thought this for a while, this confirms it for me... Maddie would've been, what, two??? The age when talking, getting excited and understanding the magic of Christmas and Santa... so you pack her off a few hundred miles away for someone else to enjoy all that... It just does not make sense. You can NEVER get those moments with your child back, so unless you had urgent reasons for it, you wouldn't be apart from them at Christmas.
It gives me no pleasure to say this, but I feel Maddie was a commodity, a possession to pass on when you've had enough...
Perhaps K+G had always planned 'two children' to go with the image, and when the twins came along poor Maddie was surplus goods. I honestly do get this feeling here. Sad

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by tigger on 18.01.12 8:38

Totally agree, RB, not only that, she was nowhere near as beautiful and amazing as they make out. I think the whole thing was a big disappointment for them. I'm still sure there was something wrong with her. Turner's syndrome seems to have been discounted, but those heavy eyes, that slightly lopsided face and the somewhat large ears (for her age) the head seen from the side often looks as if she's got hair extensions on the back, seems to large. Perhaps her medical records are kept in reserve in case it ever comes to court, the plea may be accidental overdose for her illness.

Once the twins were born (she never had much to do with them, as Kate let slip) she was 'de trop'.
No, she wasn't loved, an imperfect child could not be from two perfect people. Imo that was the case right from the beginning, why are there so few baby photos? And why is the baby photo with Gerry and the picture behind him most definitely photoshopped? I'm suspecting even that the lovely photograph of Kate lying down with a gorgeous baby is simply not her baby. Kate looks very young in that shot, about 25 max, I'd say.

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by jd on 18.01.12 9:50

Some comments from posters on other forums about the care the mccanns showed for Maddie (says what I feel too)

"...I don't believe she was wanted by the McCanns and if her extended family loved her, they would have been on the first available flight to the Algarve. Gerry's two sisters and his brother, were sitting on the GMTV couch, 3 days after Madeleine went missing, talking about raising money to find her"

"madeleine was at the nursery 2-3 days and the twins 1-2 days and KM worked for 2 1/2 days a week and when they got home it was tea then bed. I noticed that Madeleine spent more time in the nursery than the twins at home."

"I looked at the Rothley childworkers statements and they were clear that Madeleine was dropped off around 8.30 am and picked up about 5pm on 3 days a week. Showing that Kate had 1 1/2 days a week with the twins at home whilst Maddie was at nursery"

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by russiandoll on 01.08.12 15:09

if this question posted already and discussed, please ignore...
an extra bed has been discussed, now...
why was there an extra car seat needed on the journey from the airport to PDL?

from DW Rogatory :

How did you get over to Portugal?”

Reply ”Err we flew from err East Midlands err I travelled up to Leicester the day before we were due to leave and err Kate and Gerry, or Gerry, had organised mini bus, a mini bus or a couple of mini buses to transport us to East Midlands airport so err Fiona and Dave and I err drove to Kate and Gerry’s house, left, left the car at their house and then we all went in two mini buses to the airport. Err I’m trying to think, I think the flight was about nine thirty or something in the morning. Err I think the, the flight, I’m trying to think it was a, maybe a bit later in the evening I can’t quite remember but there was nothing untoward, you know, it was just a normal err journey there. Err when we arrived at you know at, in Portugal I think the other thing that Gerry had err booked, I don’t know whether he did it by phone or online, was a, err a mini bus to take us to the err resort where we were staying err and there was a bit of a kafuffle because we had, he’d asked for several child seats for the err bus because obviously there were five children in the group and I think there was only, I don’t know if it was one seat or two seats, so there was a bit of time spent at the airport trying to find other seats err and I don’t think we did manage to get all six in the end so we just sort of risked it and were driven to Praia Da Luz.”

DW correctly mentions 5 children travelling, 3 McCanns and 2 Paynes. So why does she then mention SIX car seats ?
Also, are we supposed to believe that parents so aware of car safety would leave young children unattended at night in their holiday apartments?

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by aquarius2 on 01.08.12 15:50

"...I don't believe she was wanted by the McCanns and if her extended family loved her, they would have been on the first available flight to the Algarve. Gerry's two sisters and his brother, were sitting on the GMTV couch, 3 days after Madeleine went missing, talking about raising money to find her"

I agree this is odd. With a situation like that most people would want their nearest and dearest onsite ASAP to support them. That said, obviously family members have their own personal lives/responsibilities and financial considerations to take into account but it is odd that in big Catholic families more extended family members were not seen to be immediately onsite surrounding the parents and taking part in the search. I don't think we can conclude that was because Madeleine wasn't loved by them though, it may be just that her parents had said it was better that extended family members stay home or their support should consist of getting on the GMTV couch.

If you were going to be spinning big-time lies to the world, would you want your family to be there watching? Who would be more likely to note your inconsistencies or catch unguarded confessions than your own family ?

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Nina on 01.08.12 17:04

@russiandoll wrote: if this question posted already and discussed, please ignore...
an extra bed has been discussed, now...
why was there an extra car seat needed on the journey from the airport to PDL?

from DW Rogatory :

How did you get over to Portugal?”

Reply ”Err we flew from err East Midlands err I travelled up to Leicester the day before we were due to leave and err Kate and Gerry, or Gerry, had organised mini bus, a mini bus or a couple of mini buses to transport us to East Midlands airport so err Fiona and Dave and I err drove to Kate and Gerry’s house, left, left the car at their house and then we all went in two mini buses to the airport. Err I’m trying to think, I think the flight was about nine thirty or something in the morning. Err I think the, the flight, I’m trying to think it was a, maybe a bit later in the evening I can’t quite remember but there was nothing untoward, you know, it was just a normal err journey there. Err when we arrived at you know at, in Portugal I think the other thing that Gerry had err booked, I don’t know whether he did it by phone or online, was a, err a mini bus to take us to the err resort where we were staying err and there was a bit of a kafuffle because we had, he’d asked for several child seats for the err bus because obviously there were five children in the group and I think there was only, I don’t know if it was one seat or two seats, so there was a bit of time spent at the airport trying to find other seats err and I don’t think we did manage to get all six in the end so we just sort of risked it and were driven to Praia Da Luz.”

DW correctly mentions 5 children travelling, 3 McCanns and 2 Paynes. So why does she then mention SIX car seats ?
Also, are we supposed to believe that parents so aware of car safety would leave young children unattended at night in their holiday apartments?

Not really important, just an observation but why two mini buses to get them to the airport, must have been the taxi type to pick up and take. But maybe a lot of luggage with all the buggies, NOT. So 5 adults and 5 children required 2 mini buses? Yet at the airport it was just the one mini bus and not enough child seats, yes why six for 5 children?

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by tigger on 01.08.12 20:59

Re the beds, they didn't get an extra bed did they? Because the twins beds in each room are standard and can be pushed together or left apart as one wishes.
So an extra bed would likely have been a third bed in the children's room?

Only thing I can think of is that it's very likely the twins slept in beds not cots. We did cover that some time ago and AnnaEsse has an article on it somewhere!
A double bed for the twins would have been safer than a single I think and there are quite a number of slip ups where Gerry or Kate mention beds instead of cots. Sean in particular was really too big for a cot by then, I'd think.

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