Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

[aiyoyo]

Aiyoyo, you make some very good points, I can't deny that.

   At the end of the day we are speculating as we don't have the full story as to why they are looking at certain areas. I was generalising about the kind of info they might have of course.  If they go on to search 3 or 4 more areas then, yes I think your point of view would be confirmed.  If on the other hand they search just one more area ...then I don't think I would be changing my mind. I'm not sold on a whitewash yet.

It is reported 3 locations were applied for and approved. They may not need to search every approved location if body is found before that.

Personally I don't see it as whitewash. I just see it as the investigators trying their best from limited evidence and doing everything they can. There is this apparent fear among posters and perhaps also among investigators (guessing here) that despite all, in the end it may come to nothing. I believe the Police are wisely not raising hope when they said so as much don't expect too much -- one step at a time.

I just hope the body find is bonus, and without it the strength of evidence which although not fortified would be enough to take to Court. If however evidence strength is weak and body find is crucial then.......what can be done ?

[Justformaddie]

Can fingerprints be taken from a bag or blanket?

[ChippyM]

Can fingerprints be taken from a bag or blanket?

Possibly....

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110131073141.htm

"
February 2, 2011

Source:

University of Abertay Dundee

Summary:

Forensic experts in Scotland are leading the way in the research of new ground-breaking forensic techniques within the field of fingerprints. The new research seeks to recover fingerprint ridge detail and impressions from fabrics -- a technique that has up until now proved difficult. It is the first time in more than 30 years that fingerprints on fabrics have been a major focus for research and the team have already had a number of successes.  "

[ChippyM]

Aiyoyo, you make some very good points, I can't deny that.

   At the end of the day we are speculating as we don't have the full story as to why they are looking at certain areas. I was generalising about the kind of info they might have of course.  If they go on to search 3 or 4 more areas then, yes I think your point of view would be confirmed.  If on the other hand they search just one more area ...then I don't think I would be changing my mind. I'm not sold on a whitewash yet.

It is reported 3 locations were applied for and approved.  They may not need to search every approved location if body is found before that.

Personally I don't see it as whitewash.  I just see it as the investigators trying their best from limited evidence and doing everything they can. ....
...

 I see it much the same way. If the PJ didn't have enough evidence to convict in 2007, SY would need some very good evidence now.

[fossey]

 I see it much the same way. If the PJ didn't have enough evidence to convict in 2007, SY would need some very good evidence now.

If there wasn't Political interference, Government assistance, dodgy FSS lab reports etc etc...

Then surely they would have had more than enough to SECURE a conviction?

[jeanmonroe]

Are OG still looking for a 'live' Madeleine or are they seeking to only find out what happened 'to' her?

[fossey]

Are OG still looking for a 'live' Madeleine or are they seeking to only find out what happened 'to' her?

They will be hard pushed to find a 'live' one.

[PeterMac]

Aiyoyo, you make some very good points, I can't deny that.
   At the end of the day we are speculating as we don't have the full story as to why they are looking at certain areas. I was generalising about the kind of info they might have of course.  If they go on to search 3 or 4 more areas then, yes I think your point of view would be confirmed.  If on the other hand they search just one more area ...then I don't think I would be changing my mind.:

It is reported 3 locations were applied for and approved.  They may not need to search every approved location if body is found before that.
Personally I don't see it as whitewash.  I just see it as the investigators trying their best from limited evidence and doing everything they can.  There is this apparent fear among posters and perhaps also among investigators (guessing here) that despite all, in the end it may come to nothing.  I believe the Police are wisely not raising hope when they said so as much don't expect too much -- one step at a time.
I just hope the body find is bonus, and without it the strength of evidence which although not fortified would be enough to take to Court.  If however evidence strength is weak and body find is crucial then.......what can be done ?

If I was going to arrest a burglar, on a planned operation, I would get a warrant for his house, AND one for the lock up garage on the nearby estate, where I believed he kept the white van, AND the garage owned by his mate, who we suspected of driving the van that night, and possibly his mate's house.
Nothing unusual about having multiple locations to search.

And to add, I wouldn't stop, just because I had found one piece of stolen property in the house. I would still continue to the garage and to the mate's garage. The initial finding might be enough to arrest and convict, but would not be enough to tell the whole story, nor, of course, to restore the goods to their rightful owner.

A pink blanket or a blue Tennis bag might convict, but would not provide a decent Christian burial.

[joel27]

I have often used this site but this is the first post so forgive me if its been covered. However I am finding the debate on the new searches in Portugal a little confusing.  In my view most of what has happened has made sense if you look at it in a different view. If the suspects remain the McCanns nothing has come to light in 7 years, any review of the case has to take into account other possibilities and not just  a token gesture I take the term no stone unturned, every suspect every possible lead needs reviewing dismiss them and dismiss them all with total credibilaty, leave no doubt if possible that the alternatives have no fact. Then when no one can return  back at you but what if ?...did you look at ... ?? You can the return back to the prime suspects. To my mind until this search is done then there is a small all bit very small element of doubt that if used by some could look like a chasm. I dont believe the Portugese police are at fault and I am not sure that Redwood is stupid either he may well be operating on instructions the McCanns are assumed innocent who then is responsible come back  if he comes back with there is no credible alternative then and only then can  the case can be focussed back on the McCanns., 

I do though think that those responsible have a level of intelligence that has allowed a cover up of what happened to linger far to long, there is somewhere there has to be a smoking gun that one piece that fits the case together. I am fairly certain its not drug dealers sneak thiefs or what ever other alternative from dodgy suspects the cover is just to good, its a planned very clever very precise cover up of what happened in 5a. it will be a very clever or very lucky break of detective work that will break it.

[Sceptic]

I have often used this site but this is the first post so forgive me if its been covered. However I am finding the debate on the new searches in Portugal a little confusing.  In my view most of what has happened has made sense if you look at it in a different view. If the suspects remain the McCanns nothing has come to light in 7 years, any review of the case has to take into account other possibilities and not just  a token gesture I take the term no stone unturned, every suspect every possible lead needs reviewing dismiss them and dismiss them all with total credibilaty, leave no doubt if possible that the alternatives have no fact. Then when no one can return  back at you but what if ?...did you look at ... ?? You can the return back to the prime suspects. To my mind until this search is done then there is a small all bit very small element of doubt that if used by some could look like a chasm. I dont believe the Portugese police are at fault and I am not sure that Redwood is stupid either he may well be operating on instructions the McCanns are assumed innocent who then is responsible come back  if he comes back with there is no credible alternative then and only then can  the case can be focussed back on the McCanns., 

I do though think that those responsible have a level of intelligence that has allowed a cover up of what happened to linger far to long, there is somewhere there has to be a smoking gun that one piece that fits the case together. I am fairly certain its not drug dealers sneak thiefs or what ever other alternative from dodgy suspects the cover is just to good, its a planned very clever very precise cover up of what happened in 5a. it will be a very clever or very lucky break of detective work that will break it.

It may be your first post Joel - but imho a very good one and your thinking and logic is very much the same as mine - I keep reminding myself of one of Redwoods first statements which was its like pealing back the layers of an onion.

[VeraWannabe]

Joel - I agree. I think they're simply going through the process of elimination. Before the trip to Luz, talking to reporters before the search began, London Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said: “I want to keep expectations down. You shouldn’t read into this that this is necessarily an end game or about to be a breakthrough of anything like that.”

Those few words say quite a lot when read in this light...

[aiyoyo]

A pink blanket or a blue Tennis bag might convict, but would not provide a decent Christian burial.

Quite !

A pink blanket or a blue tennis bag found at a place it should not be would convict.

You are not suggesting they got the multiple search warrants to look for a pink blanket or a blue tennis bag by chance ?

Surely 'you know who' would not be so careless as to have left any of the mentioned conspicuous items laying about the site.
Besides items are easily disposable and they are probably in the land fill.

[Newintown]

A pink blanket or a blue Tennis bag might convict, but would not provide a decent Christian burial.

Quite !

A pink blanket or a blue tennis bag found at a place it should not be would convict.

You are not suggesting they got the multiple search warrants to look for a pink blanket or a blue tennis bag by chance ?

Surely 'you know who' would not be so careless as to have left any of the mentioned conspicuous items laying about the site.
Besides items are easily disposable and they are probably in the land fill.

Or thrown off a high cliff into the sea.

[SchrodingersBody]

A pink blanket or a blue Tennis bag might convict, but would not provide a decent Christian burial.

Quite !

A pink blanket or a blue tennis bag found at a place it should not be would convict.

You are not suggesting they got the multiple search warrants to look for a pink blanket or a blue tennis bag by chance ?

Surely 'you know who' would not be so careless as to have left any of the mentioned conspicuous items laying about the site.
Besides items are easily disposable and they are probably in the land fill.

You might if you didn't expect them to be so irrevocably linked to the case, and expected them to be perceived as a generic blanket or a generic bag. When was their dissappearance reported or observed ? There's people on here that will know the timelines.

[sharonl]

Burglars, with properly registered contract phones? Pull the other one, they're more likely to be stolen phones with un-registered sims.

[aiyoyo]

Can fingerprints be taken from a bag or blanket?

If they found the bag or blanket during the search, fingerprinting would not be necessary as these were photograph evidence as being in the apt after Maddie disappeared.

[ultimaThule]

As one pink blanket or blue bag can look much like another, it would be necessary to establish without doubt that any such items found were one and the same as those shown in the photographs, aiyoyo

[aiyoyo]

Burglars, with properly registered contract phones? Pull the other one, they're more likely to be stolen phones with un-registered sims.

How would they know the phone numbers of these burglars in the first place?

You first got to know or have the numbers before you can do the triangulation trace .

[aiyoyo]

As one pink blanket or blue bag can look much like another, it would be necessary to establish without doubt that any such items found were one and the same as those shown in the photographs, aiyoyo

What are the chances of a pink child blanket or a blue tennis bag similar to the ones seen in the photographs to be found in scrubland or well or dilapidated barn or any of the search areas covered by police, where phone triangulation or other evidence placed her parents there at the time.

In fact I'd say if a pink blanket or a blue tennis bag is retrieved in the search, it is BINGO.

[ultimaThule]

I don't know what the odds are, aiyoyo, but I would put money on the defence working them out and demonstrating that any such item(s) could have been abandoned on, or found their way onto, scrubland or any other location through a number of means entirely unconnected with those in the dock.

[sofieellis]

I don't know what the odds are, aiyoyo, but I would put money on the defence working them out and demonstrating that any such item(s) could have been abandoned on, or found their way onto, scrubland or any other location through a number of means entirely unconnected with those in the dock.

They wouldn't be able to dismiss them that easily, if they were found to contain certain peoples' DNA

[aiyoyo]

I don't know what the odds are, aiyoyo, but I would put money on the defence working them out and demonstrating that any such item(s) could have been abandoned on, or found their way onto, scrubland or any other location through a number of means entirely unconnected with those in the dock.

No doubt, defence can try to argue till they're blue in the face, but it would be futile.
Rest assured if those are ever found in police search areas they would be handled, stored, tested, labelled carefully as court exhibits with no wiggle room for defence.

It's the nail in the coffin for people in the dock that no expensive lawyers can argue away.

eta: btw, I've unbold my username and I prefer it to stay that way.

[Newintown]

As one pink blanket or blue bag can look much like another, it would be necessary to establish without doubt that any such items found were one and the same as those shown in the photographs, aiyoyo

What are the chances of a pink child blanket or a blue tennis bag similar to the ones seen in the photographs to be found in scrubland or well or dilapidated barn or any of the search areas covered by police, where phone triangulation or other evidence placed her parents there at the time.

In fact I'd say if a pink blanket or a blue tennis bag is retrieved in the search, it is BINGO.

Yes, because the pink blanket and the blue bag were photographed in the McCanns' apartment after Madeleine "disappeared", so the so-called abductor/child snatcher/druggie burglar who took a child without taking anything else i.e.passports, cameras, would not have had Madeleine's pink blanket and the blue bag as they were still in the apartment when the PJ arrived to take photos.

[End]

I don't know what the odds are, aiyoyo, but I would put money on the defence working them out and demonstrating that any such item(s) could have been abandoned on, or found their way onto, scrubland or any other location through a number of means entirely unconnected with those in the dock.

Even if the items contained DNA of those in the dock?.......but then I suppose the bag was reported stolen at a later date....I wonder was the blanket also reported stolen?

[fossey]

but then I suppose the bag was reported stolen at a later date....I wonder was the blanket also reported stolen?

The bag was not reported stolen.

It was whooshed somewhere by either Kate or Gerry. My money is on Gerry.