Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

[End]

Met Police Press Release - Operation Grange Update
11^th June 2014, 17.50
Operation Grange officers working alongside experts in their field from around the UK, the Policia Judicial and the Guarda Nacional Republicana today, Wednesday 11 June completed an eight day period of work searching specific areas of land in Praia da Luz.
At this time no evidence relating to Madeleine McCann has been identified. However it has given us an essential understanding of the activity on and people that have used this piece of land.
This was the first phase of this major investigation which has been agreed with the Portuguese following the four International Letters of Request submitted to date. More activity has been agreed and we expect that to commence shortly. In addition further requests are being compiled and will be submitted in due course.
The decision to search the “horse shoe” shaped piece of waste ground to the west of Praia da Luz and other sites was as a specific result of the UK’s investigation work to date.
The total area of land searched and surveyed was of approximately 60,000 sq metres and included all utilities, drainage channels and derelict buildings. 41 ground anomalies were identified initially by both aerial survey and ground analysis which were then investigated fully. These included three outside of the original area.
This deployment which was the largest ever undertaken by UK police overseas in a case of this type, highlighted the effective nature of the assistance given by the Portuguese authorities, for which the investigation team and family are very grateful.
The media’s understanding and co-operation following Assistant Commissioner Rowley’s pre deployment briefing has also been noted and appreciated.
There is still a substantial amount of work yet to be completed in the coming weeks and months, which again should be viewed as no more than normal operational activity in a case of this size and complexity. This recent work is part of ensuring that all lines of enquiry are progressed in a systematic manner and covers just the one hypothesis that she was killed and buried locally. This is the same as would be done in the UK for a murder or high risk missing person enquiry. The scientific support staff involved were there to provide the highest level of assurance that this area was searched to the highest possible standards.

The red [my doing] leaves room for some optimism.
As does the bold. [Again, my doing.]

But it does seem, from the last paragraph, that SY are working 'backwards' - trying to come to solution by a process of elimination.
Perhaps this phase was to eliminate all sightings of 'abductors' (Tannerman's ruled out, Smithman... now ruled out...?)

Do you honestly think they are going to spend this amount of money on evidence based on lies and condradictions? I seriously doubt it.

[nobodythereeither]

Its' a shame the dogs were not sniffing around 5A.

They've already got the results of dogs sniffing around 5A.

Why would they need another two dogs to do it again?

Because someone cast doubt on the first dogs.

So.. belt and braces.. do it again.

"Someone" cast doubt who was closely connected with places and items alerted to by the dogs.

Absolutely no reason to do it again.

Waste of time and resources.

ETA: Unless there was reason to think that the two new dogs were likely to find additional things, which possibly could be the case if forensics have moved on in the last seven years.

[nobodythereeither]

The problem is that if the PJ had found something implicating the parents, then they would have shared it.  That no such contact has been made is discouraging.

How do you know what has or hasn't been shared, or what contact has or hasn't been made?

Do you really think they are going to make that sort of thing public at this stage?

There are too many people on this forum stating all sorts of assumptions as fact.

It's that which I find extremely discouraging.

[Bishop Brennan]

The problem is that if the PJ had found something implicating the parents, then they would have shared it.  That no such contact has been made is discouraging.

How do you know what has or hasn't been shared, or what contact has or hasn't been made?

Do you really think they are going to make that sort of thing public at this stage?

There are too many people on this forum stating all sorts of assumptions as fact.

It's that which I find extremely discouraging.

I think it is a logical and reasonable conclusion to draw. If the PJ had found something concrete against the parents and shared it with SY, then this investigation would not have gone the way it has. The original remit for SY was to assist the PJ with their investigation. Faro would then have been working with SY working out how best go about reinterviewing the T9.

Instead, we have SY going way beyond their remit, and conducting their own investigation without any cooperation from Faro. A separate PJ team has been dealing with the numerous ILRs, none of which appear to be related to the parents in any way.

So, of course it is an assumption. But it is based on the evidence and fits with everything that has happened to date.

[Cristobell]

LOL it does appear that way.

However, the police did state in the report that they were working happily with the PJ, so hopefully that is a good sign.

Even if that were true, the PJ in Faro are the ones pursuing their case.  The local police are just hosting the SY visit and keeping an eye on them. There appears to be zero interaction between the Faro team and SY - both are pursuing their own agendas and it is unclear what if anything they are up to.  The problem is that if the PJ had found something implicating the parents, then they would have shared it.  That no such contact has been made is discouraging.  In the end, unless they can find a body or get someone to talk (both highly unlikely) then it's hard to see how they can do anything.

Poor Maddie, justice appears as far away as ever.  

If the PJ in Faro are not working with SY, then it can only be because they do not trust them after the last time British government/police interfered in the investigation.

I actually think they are working together, on some aspects at least.  The reason being that the PJ re-opened their investigation shortly after SY, and as we know the Portuguese were adamant that they would not re-open the case in Portugal without new evidence. 

I don't think either police force is going to cover up the death of a little girl.  

I've been studying the case of Jonbenet Ramsey, and there are a lot of similarities, not only with the controversy surrounding the case but also the way in which both sets of parents have behaved.  As the McCanns nemesis is Goncalo Amaral, the Ramseys' nemesis was Detective Steve Thomas. Steve Thomas was a detective with Boulder police who strongly believed Patsy Ramsey was responsible for her daughter's death, and her husband John, helped her to cover it up.  Like Goncalo, Steve Thomas was forced to resign from the police and like Goncalo he wrote a book about the case and yes, he too was sued.

Unfortunately the District Attorney and the Boulder police did not have enough evidence to prosecute the case against the Ramseys, and the DA did not want to risk taking the case to court and losing at that time, as it would mean the Ramseys would walk and never face prosecution (double jeopardy I believe).  Steve Thomas understood the DA's reasons, but disagreed, he thought they should have prosecuted and hence he resigned.

The AG in Portugal and indeed the Crown Prosecution in the UK, face the same problems I fear.  The case they build against the McCanns must be watertight - if the McCanns are tried on circumstantial evidence alone, they may walk.  Also, if we step back and look at the size and scale of Operation Grange, it is pretty clear that this case goes a lot further than one missing child.  The number of suspects must go into double figures, and the case against each must be strong enough for EAWs to be issued.

It is indeed very frustrating when we are all here shouting 'behind you Andy', but the last thing we want is for the McCanns to be acquitted through lack of evidence.

The US, being far bolder than we are, actually had the Ramseys and Steve Thomas on the Larry King show together.  It was quite a humdinger!  I couldn't find the actual video, but I did find a transcript, and Detective Thomas pulled no punches.  I wonder if we will ever see  Goncalo Amaral on Lorraine's couch, alongside the McCanns - now that would be worth watching!

[Fiona09]

Is it just a coincidence that SY have announced "nothing found, heading home" on the same day that the confirmation that the libel trial is going ahead on Monday was announced?  Could it maybe be to make a certain someone feel more comfortable about travelling to Portugal, making him available for a chat with the PJ - or am I just clutching at straws?!

[HelenMeg]

I would suggest everyone reads todays Blacksmith post.
It makes the most sense that I have read for a long time

Link deleted

[ChippyM]

The problem is that if the PJ had found something implicating the parents, then they would have shared it.  That no such contact has been made is discouraging.

How do you know what has or hasn't been shared, or what contact has or hasn't been made?

Do you really think they are going to make that sort of thing public at this stage?

There are too many people on this forum stating all sorts of assumptions as fact.

It's that which I find extremely discouraging.

I agree . You can't make logical theories based on things we don't know. The reason the Pj opened the case is not known (anything in the press or here is speculation), the exact reasons SY are searching are not known and  the analysis of 'objects' found in the recent digs isn't known.

 We can say that the police have been corrupt in the past and have the cases to prove it but that doesn't mean that this case is automatically the same.

[russiandoll]

Helen Meg..... agreed.

[missmar1]

Is it just a coincidence that SY have announced "nothing found, heading home" on the same day that the confirmation that the libel trial is going ahead on Monday was announced?  Could it maybe be to make a certain someone feel more comfortable about travelling to Portugal, making him available for a chat with the PJ - or am I just clutching at straws?!

I doubt very much if that is the case Fiona09  - I think if he was afraid of returning to Portugal he wouldn't have flown in that day for the libel trial and paraded himself outside the court for all to see ......course it was all for show, imo, because he knew he was too late to be heard but it looked good for the UK press.

[Fiona09]

Is it just a coincidence that SY have announced "nothing found, heading home" on the same day that the confirmation that the libel trial is going ahead on Monday was announced?  Could it maybe be to make a certain someone feel more comfortable about travelling to Portugal, making him available for a chat with the PJ - or am I just clutching at straws?!

I doubt very much if that is the case Fiona09  - I think if he was afraid of returning to Portugal he wouldn't have flown in that day for the libel trial and paraded himself outside the court for all to see ......course it was all for show, imo, because he knew he was too late to be heard but it looked good for the UK press.

You're probably right, I'm likely being overly optimistic.. although, and I might be wrong, was that not before the PJ had re-opened the investigation?

[ultimaThule]

Is it just a coincidence that SY have announced "nothing found, heading home" on the same day that the confirmation that the libel trial is going ahead on Monday was announced?  Could it maybe be to make a certain someone feel more comfortable about travelling to Portugal, making him available for a chat with the PJ - or am I just clutching at straws?!

I suspect that a certain someone, or someones, are unlikely 'feel more comfortable' about setting foot on Portuguese soil while the police of two countries are actively investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, Fiona, and that this holds true no matter what assurances have been given to them by their lawyers in the UK and in Portugal, or in respect of any undertakings given to them by other agencies.

[ultimaThule]

Is it just a coincidence that SY have announced "nothing found, heading home" on the same day that the confirmation that the libel trial is going ahead on Monday was announced?  Could it maybe be to make a certain someone feel more comfortable about travelling to Portugal, making him available for a chat with the PJ - or am I just clutching at straws?!

I doubt very much if that is the case Fiona09  - I think if he was afraid of returning to Portugal he wouldn't have flown in that day for the libel trial and paraded himself outside the court for all to see ......course it was all for show, imo, because he knew he was too late to be heard but it looked good for the UK press.

You're probably right, I'm likely being overly optimistic.. although, and I might be wrong, was that not before the PJ had re-opened the investigation?

The wee one's flying visit to Lisbon for the purpose of grandstanding outside the Court builing took place after the PJ had re-opened their nvestigation,Fiona.

[russiandoll]

Operation Grange update
	The material on this page is for media organisations only. Please do not publish links to this page. This page was last updated on 11-Jun-2014 17:50 DMC Contacts		Operation Grange officers working alongside experts in their field from around the UK, the Policia Judicial and the Guarda Nacional Republicana today, Wednesday 11 June completed an eight day period of work searching specific areas of land in Praia da Luz. At this time no evidence relating to Madeleine McCann has been identified. However it has given us an essential understanding of the activity on and people that have used this piece of land. This was the first phase of this major investigation which has been agreed with the Portuguese following the four International Letters of Request submitted to date. More activity has been agreed and we expect that to commence shortly. In addition further requests are being compiled and will be submitted in due course. The decision to search the “horse shoe” shaped piece of waste ground to the west of Praia da Luz and other sites was as a specific result of the UK’s investigation work to date. The total area of land searched and surveyed was of approximately 60,000 sq metres and included all utilities, drainage channels and derelict buildings. 41 ground anomalies were identified initially by both aerial survey and ground analysis which were then investigated fully. These included three outside of the original area. This deployment which was the largest ever undertaken by UK police overseas in a case of this type, highlighted the effective nature of the assistance given by the Portuguese authorities, for which the investigation team and family are very grateful. The media’s understanding and co-operation following Assistant Commissioner Rowley’s pre deployment briefing has also been noted and appreciated. There is still a substantial amount of work yet to be completed in the coming weeks and months, which again should be viewed as no more than normal operational activity in a case of this size and complexity. This recent work is part of ensuring that all lines of enquiry are progressed in a systematic manner and covers just the one hypothesis that she was killed and buried locally. This is the same as would be done in the UK for a murder or high risk missing person enquiry. The scientific support staff involved were there to provide the highest level of assurance that this area was searched to the highest possible standards.

[missmar1]

Is it just a coincidence that SY have announced "nothing found, heading home" on the same day that the confirmation that the libel trial is going ahead on Monday was announced?  Could it maybe be to make a certain someone feel more comfortable about travelling to Portugal, making him available for a chat with the PJ - or am I just clutching at straws?!

I doubt very much if that is the case Fiona09  - I think if he was afraid of returning to Portugal he wouldn't have flown in that day for the libel trial and paraded himself outside the court for all to see ......course it was all for show, imo, because he knew he was too late to be heard but it looked good for the UK press.

You're probably right, I'm likely being overly optimistic.. although, and I might be wrong, was that not before the PJ had re-opened the investigation?

It was quite recent when GM returned to Portugal to speak at the libel trial....long after the PJ  had re-opned the investigation - but per'haps having two forces there with the recent digging going on might be enough to put him off going this time !

[Fiona09]

Is it just a coincidence that SY have announced "nothing found, heading home" on the same day that the confirmation that the libel trial is going ahead on Monday was announced?  Could it maybe be to make a certain someone feel more comfortable about travelling to Portugal, making him available for a chat with the PJ - or am I just clutching at straws?!

I doubt very much if that is the case Fiona09  - I think if he was afraid of returning to Portugal he wouldn't have flown in that day for the libel trial and paraded himself outside the court for all to see ......course it was all for show, imo, because he knew he was too late to be heard but it looked good for the UK press.

You're probably right, I'm likely being overly optimistic.. although, and I might be wrong, was that not before the PJ had re-opened the investigation?

The wee one's flying visit to Lisbon for the purpose of grandstanding outside the Court builing took place after the PJ had re-opened their nvestigation,Fiona.

Ah right, thanks.  There goes that idea then!

[Lance De Boils]

Met Police Press Release - Operation Grange Update
11^th June 2014, 17.50
Operation Grange officers working alongside experts in their field from around the UK, the Policia Judicial and the Guarda Nacional Republicana today, Wednesday 11 June completed an eight day period of work searching specific areas of land in Praia da Luz.
At this time no evidence relating to Madeleine McCann has been identified. However it has given us an essential understanding of the activity on and people that have used this piece of land.
This was the first phase of this major investigation which has been agreed with the Portuguese following the four International Letters of Request submitted to date. More activity has been agreed and we expect that to commence shortly. In addition further requests are being compiled and will be submitted in due course.
The decision to search the “horse shoe” shaped piece of waste ground to the west of Praia da Luz and other sites was as a specific result of the UK’s investigation work to date.
The total area of land searched and surveyed was of approximately 60,000 sq metres and included all utilities, drainage channels and derelict buildings. 41 ground anomalies were identified initially by both aerial survey and ground analysis which were then investigated fully. These included three outside of the original area.
This deployment which was the largest ever undertaken by UK police overseas in a case of this type, highlighted the effective nature of the assistance given by the Portuguese authorities, for which the investigation team and family are very grateful.
The media’s understanding and co-operation following Assistant Commissioner Rowley’s pre deployment briefing has also been noted and appreciated.
There is still a substantial amount of work yet to be completed in the coming weeks and months, which again should be viewed as no more than normal operational activity in a case of this size and complexity. This recent work is part of ensuring that all lines of enquiry are progressed in a systematic manner and covers just the one hypothesis that she was killed and buried locally. This is the same as would be done in the UK for a murder or high risk missing person enquiry. The scientific support staff involved were there to provide the highest level of assurance that this area was searched to the highest possible standards.

The red [my doing] leaves room for some optimism.
As does the bold. [Again, my doing.]

But it does seem, from the last paragraph, that SY are working 'backwards' - trying to come to solution by a process of elimination.
Perhaps this phase was to eliminate all sightings of 'abductors' (Tannerman's ruled out, Smithman... now ruled out...?)

Do you honestly think they are going to spend this amount of money on evidence based on lies and condradictions? I seriously doubt it.

I think I'm probably being dense, this evening, but I'm not clear about your response. Could you perhaps reword for my rather senior mind?

[View-from-Ireland]

While I did post about what my legal friend said about circumstantial evidence yesterday and my hunch that this is what has allowed certain people sit comfortable to this point I would point out that circumstantial evidence has been enough to put people behind bars in the past. Joe O'Reilly was jailed in 2007  for the murder of his wife after mobile triangulation placed him in the vicinity of his home at the time his wife was murdered there and cctv footage showed a car like his travelling towards his house at a time when he said he was twenty miles away at work. So circumstantial evidence,can sometimes stick in a court. 

Joe O'Reilly

[XTC]

I would suggest everyone reads todays Blacksmith post.
It makes the most sense that I have read for a long time

Link deleted

Yes I agree a good post.

I've avoided the long ( but certainly interesting ) discussion re: conspiracy/coverup etc because generally great coverups are not usually played out under the eyes of the media.

I must say though that once the story broke it did cross my mind for a moment that this could have been a ' Diplomatic Incident ' that started off in the public eye but could have been reigned in. But to be fair what is in the public domain which blacksmith refers to is essentially statements and evidence from the Portuguese files. Very little British evidence has been revealed as far as I can see.

I am however uncomfortable with the view that the British police would prosecute if any evidence is found on this dig or as a result of a deeper investigation by SY. My opinion is pretty clear  that no matter what, this is a Portuguese case and any evidence emerging or unearthed by SY or  an eagle eyed witness will and should land directly into the current PJ files. If it doesn't then I think we could discuss the possibility of a whitewash or coverup. At the moment my coin is still spinning in the air because we have three possibilities ( there may be some more - who knows?) but as far as I am aware the current PJ think it is  one perpetrator and that the person resides in the U.K. A one off crime. SY are working the burglar theory ( all Portuguese?) and finally the non abduction by anyone ( Portuguese or otherwise) from the original investigation up to September 07. Between the two police forces they appear to be looking for a body and in this current search trying to find  something related to the removed and or remover(s) of said body. Mr Amaral talks of SY developing a " new thesis " which is
interesting as the current PJ have developed one too. That's a pretty interesting one but also is in need of additional credible evidence by the PJ also. Same applies to all the investigators current or past I think. It's the additional critical evidence that's missing. The key to unlock this mystery is around somewhere.

Every old sock has a an old shoe.

We await developments as ever.

All opinion as usual.

[jeanmonroe]

Anyone care to 'suggest' why the Met have NOT, at the end of their 'update' today, published the following, like they did in all previous 'releases'
--------------------------------------------------
Anyone with any information is asked to call the Operation Grange incident room on 0207 321 9251. Alternatively if you do not want to speak to us directly you can contact Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.

The Metropolitan Police Service continues to offer a reward of up to £20,000 for information leading to the identification, arrest and prosecution of the person(s) responsible for the abduction of Madeleine McCann from Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

They will have to 'update' the 'update'!
------------------------------------

[coati mundi]

I'm sorry but I had hoped against hope that the SY operations in PDL were serious and that they might have been based on some sort of intelligence that had led them the sites they have been searching. Further, I had hoped that they had had an idea of what they were looking for. It should either have been a body (based on clear intelligence as to where it might have been buried, or have been temporarily deposited) or items that might have been of forensic value that may have been discarded on those sites.

Instead, it seems to have been a kind of Yukon Gold Rush, in which they hoped that if they sifted enough soil, they might turn up with nuggets of precious metal.

I am not sure at all what the purpose of this search was (and incidentally I have recently heard ITV news declare that SY are on their way home) but I am fairly sure that it cannot have been anything to do with trying to establish whether or not a certain couple were in any way culpable in their daughter's "disappearance" (as all of the Press now refer to it).

I think that SY either had a remit that included an order not to consider the possibilty that the parents were in someway culpable, or that those who were given the remit to reopen the investigation simply could not imagine that possibility, and therefore ignored evidence that pointed in that direction. They don't have to have been suborned, they just have to have been seduced by the rubbish the media has produced over the last 6 years or so, and the position politicians of all parties have taken over the last 7 years or more.

As to circumstancial evidence, which many posters have referred to as a weakness in a possible case, the fact is that circumstantial evidence, if there is enough of it, can have a deadly effect when put together. If SY were serious about really re-investigating this case, they would have begun by interviewing the principal actors again. The list of those is obvious, including the PJ officers who attended the scene and those who investigated it. They should have begun from first priciples. Instead, they have tried to fit the case to the supposedly accepted version and therefore have conducted this farcical operation in PDL, the futility of which was summed up by the succinct (though somewhat lacking in spelling skills) message of thr PDL graffiti artist.

As Aleisteir Crowley is reported to have said on his deathbed "I am perplexed".

[lj]

Madeleine McCann: British cops are keeping Portugal's bars in business
BRITISH police hunting for Madeleine McCann are welcome in Portugal because they “drink lots of beer”, a bar worker said yesterday.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/383212/Madeleine-McCann-Investigating-British-cops-are-keeping-Portugal-s-bars-in-business

Thirsty work all that digging and searching under a hot sun.   

The Brit police having long boozy lunches, like Mr Amaral was accused of............... surely that can't be right.     Bacon sandwich  munchers too I bet!

 :iconbiggrin: 

They can't be that stupid or maybe they are not aware of all the comments at that time.

[lj]

11:58am, Wed 11 Jun 2014
Police 'unearth an object' at new McCann search site
ITV News Correspondent Martin Geissler reports from Praia da Luz:

martin geissler
@mmgeissler
 
Whitewash in the pipeline?

Or maybe it's just an em.....'object'?

If they found a sock in the snail,maybe this is the other sock.

Now THAT would be a miracle!

I want the person who found the other sock in my house: we are missing at least a hundred!

[maebee]

While I did post about what my legal friend said about circumstantial evidence yesterday and my hunch that this is what has allowed certain people sit comfortable to this point I would point out that circumstantial evidence has been enough to put people behind bars in the past. Joe O'Reilly was jailed in 2007  for the murder of his wife after mobile triangulation placed him in the vicinity of his home at the time his wife was murdered there and cctv footage showed a car like his travelling towards his house at a time when he said he was twenty miles away at work. So circumstantial evidence,can sometimes stick in a court. 

Joe O'Reilly

Hi VfI, I followed the case, as did a lot of Irish people. It was the phone triangulation that got him in the end (remember him on the Late Late show pleading etc, a la McCann).  We know that the Mcs deleted texts etc from their phones on May 3rd/4th 2007 (that would be the phones they didn't have, according to the pink one. It's hard to understand why today's technology cannot grab the Mcs phone's details from that date and put 2 & 2 together. Ok, I know, it's probably been done but can't be used. Poor Madeleine. If your 3 year old daughter had just been declared "missing", why would you be deleting stuff from your phone? If my daughter was missing I know that I would drop my phone and SEARCH for her. They never did:(

[fossey]

OPERATION GRANGE UPDATE

Operation Grange officers working alongside experts in their field from around the UK, the Policia Judicial and the Guarda Nacional Republicana today, Wednesday 11 June completed an eight day period of work searching specific areas of land in Praia da Luz.
At this time no evidence relating to Madeleine McCann has been identified. However it has given us an essential understanding of the activity on and people that have used this piece of land.
This was the first phase of this major investigation which has been agreed with the Portuguese following the four International Letters of Request submitted to date. More activity has been agreed and we expect that to commence shortly. In addition further requests are being compiled and will be submitted in due course.
The decision to search the “horse shoe” shaped piece of waste ground to the west of Praia da Luz and other sites was as a specific result of the UK’s investigation work to date.
The total area of land searched and surveyed was of approximately 60,000 sq metres and included all utilities, drainage channels and derelict buildings. 41 ground anomalies were identified initially by both aerial survey and ground analysis which were then investigated fully. These included three outside of the original area.
This deployment which was the largest ever undertaken by UK police overseas in a case of this type, highlighted the effective nature of the assistance given by the Portuguese authorities, for which the investigation team and family are very grateful.
The media’s understanding and co-operation following Assistant Commissioner Rowley’s pre deployment briefing has also been noted and appreciated.
There is still a substantial amount of work yet to be completed in the coming weeks and months, which again should be viewed as no more than normal operational activity in a case of this size and complexity. This recent work is part of ensuring that all lines of enquiry are progressed in a systematic manner and covers just the one hypothesis that she was killed and buried locally. This is the same as would be done in the UK for a murder or high risk missing person enquiry. The scientific support staff involved were there to provide the highest level of assurance that this area was searched to the highest possible standards.