Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

[sami]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

That's an old forum myth.  The picture from an angle looks a bit like gloves but there were none.  Dead end there.  

Thank you Bishop. And the imaginary gloves weren't blue either. They were imaginary YELLOW.

 

I'm not opening the gloves debate again but there were surgical gloves in the bedside locker shown in the Martin Grimes video of the search of the villa.

[Cristobell]

The article in Sunday World is quite surprising - it is highly critical of operation Grange. Worth reading and not dismissing.
 
Officers searching scrubland around the Praia da Luz resort for the body of Maddie McCann, or a clue to her whereabouts, are still shooting in the dark, cold case specialist Alan Bailey told the Sunday World.
The former head of the Irish Cold Case unit claims that the Metropolitan Police search is far to wide and lacking direction and demonstrates a lack of commitment to the case, exclusively claims today.
“A four day search on three sites totaling 17 or so acres, lasting four days shows a lack of commitment. Either you are going to search the area fully and completely, or you are not. If you can exclude the scrubland and potential burial sites or areas where clothing of evidence may have been discarded within a square kilometer of the apartment where she was last seen, then it becomes a very different type of crime”, Bailey an eminent cold case investigator, told the Sunday World.
The specialist says that if she was abducted by a fixated preferential paedophile in an opportunist way, then local scrubland would be a place to abuse and get rid of evidence.
“Most of these kind of abductions are really wrong place, wrong time, and so, an opportunist predator could have spotted Maddie leaving her apartment searching for her mother, and snatched her immediately. These offenders don’t need much planning because they are always looking for an configuration of events to make their escape and snatch”, he said.
“An offender needs the child to present themselves, be lost and alone, for example. The environment must be suitable with a lack of CCTV cameras, and a lack of witnesses or potential witness is the third requirement of the opportunist snatch. If a full search of these sites were conducted then we could exclude this and concentrate on the more planned kidnap and snatch by a gang of paedophiles which is always the more unlikely scenario”, he said.
The investigator says that the Gardai would not have opened up the possibility of a breakthrough on the basis of such a wide search over such a short time. “We would have simply had an open ended search and not finished until we were confident that all the work was done and it cannot be done in four days after a gap of nearly seven years”, Bailey said.
The experience of the Gardai and the PSNI in the search for the disappeared from the troubles, has given these forces an expertise in searching for missing bodies and lost evidence.
“ We know from the disappeared that even when there are tip offs about the locations from those who actually, perpetrated the crimes then it is still very hard to find the bodies so this seems a very unrealistic and overly ambitious search by the Metropolitan Police", he said.
Despite indications of a breakthrough in the case, it is quite clear that the use of spades, pitch forks and some ground penetrating radar across three sites, one of which is over 15 acres, can only suggest that the Police are looking for a needle in a haystack.
One source close to the new investigators spoke of the concern among the team that the Met has made very little breakthrough despite the investment of more than 30 full time officers and nearly €10m in the investigation which was kick started last July after the intervention of the British Prime Minister.
Police sources say that search locations have been pinpointed by geographic crime profilers.
The sites were based on the distance that a child could have walked from
apartment 5a
where she disappeared from, or the distance where she could have been carried by a predator, and then perhaps abused or killed.
The investigators will be looking for either a piece of clothing or a body.
This line of enquiry suggests that the new investigators are unhappy with the quality of the original search but also that the new investigators, along with the original Portuguese Police team, believe that Maddie is no longer alive.
The McCann’s have long ignored this possibility understandably, but statistically; victims of child abductions are likely to be killed within days of kidnap.
“Victims of child abductions statistically are unlikely to survive the first 48 hours and the younger they are the more likely they are to be killed earlier. Those rare cases where abductees survive to be sex slaves are typically much, much older”, Professor David Wilson told the Sunday World.
http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/crime-desk/donal-macintyre-s-crime-cafe/mccann-search-lacks-commitment-and-direction-expert-claims

Can't agree Cheshire Cat, reads like negative propaganda coming directly from Team McCann.  Its only a couple of steps away from saying Madeleine is alive and findable.  It suits the McCanns if people think this search is nonsense.

Even if we believe SY were sticking a pin in a map, there is no way the Portuguese AG would grant permission to dig up a holiday resort in PDL on that basis - particularly during high season.

[Guest]

Does anyone remember a poster on the 3As who had a particular interest in the drains and tunnels in PdL? I think it was a woman, and she visited PdL to check out some of her theories. Can't remember the name.

Wicksy - it is Johanna, the blogger (Unterdentepich) who had this interest and has just posted some pictures of the drains/tunnels on MCF.
Her view is that this area was the first resting place, not where a body is likely to be found.

Thanks, alison. Yes, I remember the theory was that it was an initial hiding place. Maybe a drain which allows water to run off into the sea during heavy rainfall. I think she used a different name before. Harmony?

I can't retrieve my login details for MCF, and I've tried to join again but my membership hasn't been activated. :-(

Johanna is Jeanne darc on MCF.  Harmony was a separate poster who knew P Da L well.  I believe that she took Johnna round on one of her visits.   Harmony was a prolific poster but then disappeared.

[HelenMeg]

Does anyone remember a poster on the 3As who had a particular interest in the drains and tunnels in PdL? I think it was a woman, and she visited PdL to check out some of her theories. Can't remember the name.

Wicksy - it is Johanna, the blogger (Unterdentepich) who had this interest and has just posted some pictures of the drains/tunnels on MCF.
Her view is that this area was the first resting place, not where a body is likely to be found.

Thanks, alison. Yes, I remember the theory was that it was an initial hiding place. Maybe a drain which allows water to run off into the sea during heavy rainfall. I think she used a different name before. Harmony?

I can't retrieve my login details for MCF, and I've tried to join again but my membership hasn't been activated. :-(

Johanna is Jeanne darc on MCF.  Harmony was a separate poster who knew P Da L well.  I believe that she took Johnna round on one of her visits.   Harmony was a prolific poster but then disappeared.

I remember Harmony! from the 3As

I remember responding to her post with the words of Elton John or should I say Bernie Taupin

'Harmony - gee I really love you and I want to love you forever
and dream of my never never never ending Harmony!   '

and then apologising - those were the days

[aiyoyo]

Hi Aiyoyo no not all but he could have taken off his jacket. We would not want him to keel over with sunstroke.
The breeze here is deceptive and many people get signs of heat exhuastion especially early on in their stay.

He must be steaming hot in that suit. 30C temperature hot and dry it was reported.

[sofieellis]

Michelle Clifford ‏[ltr]@skynewsmichelle[/ltr]  7m
Forensic officers use wheelbarrow to remove soil from tented area in Praia Da Luz. Evidence bags also carried away from tent #mccann

[Shhh]

Back from work, see the police are poking around yesterday's hole & still not a word from tm.

I wonder who talked?

Say in thread earlier Patricia & sandy Cameron divorced.  When was this & anyone know why?  Is there a thread?

[Shhh]

Michelle Clifford ‏

[ltr]@skynewsmichelle[/ltr]

  7m
Forensic officers use wheelbarrow to remove soil from tented area in Praia Da Luz. Evidence bags also carried away from tent #mccann

You don't put soil in an evidence bag.  Wonder what it is

[worriedmum]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

That's an old forum myth.  The picture from an angle looks a bit like gloves but there were none.  Dead end there.  

Thank you Bishop. And the imaginary gloves weren't blue either. They were imaginary YELLOW.

 

I'm not opening the gloves debate again but there were surgical gloves in the bedside locker shown in the Martin Grimes video of the search of the villa.

Yes Sami, there were gloves in the bedside drawer and some in a box  on this video at 4.50....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N47AUYhD4Dg

[Cheshire Cat]

The article in Sunday World is quite surprising - it is highly critical of operation Grange. Worth reading and not dismissing.
 
Officers searching scrubland around the Praia da Luz resort for the body of Maddie McCann, or a clue to her whereabouts, are still shooting in the dark, cold case specialist Alan Bailey told the Sunday World.
The former head of the Irish Cold Case unit claims that the Metropolitan Police search is far to wide and lacking direction and demonstrates a lack of commitment to the case, exclusively claims today.
“A four day search on three sites totaling 17 or so acres, lasting four days shows a lack of commitment. Either you are going to search the area fully and completely, or you are not. If you can exclude the scrubland and potential burial sites or areas where clothing of evidence may have been discarded within a square kilometer of the apartment where she was last seen, then it becomes a very different type of crime”, Bailey an eminent cold case investigator, told the Sunday World.
The specialist says that if she was abducted by a fixated preferential paedophile in an opportunist way, then local scrubland would be a place to abuse and get rid of evidence.
“Most of these kind of abductions are really wrong place, wrong time, and so, an opportunist predator could have spotted Maddie leaving her apartment searching for her mother, and snatched her immediately. These offenders don’t need much planning because they are always looking for an configuration of events to make their escape and snatch”, he said.
“An offender needs the child to present themselves, be lost and alone, for example. The environment must be suitable with a lack of CCTV cameras, and a lack of witnesses or potential witness is the third requirement of the opportunist snatch. If a full search of these sites were conducted then we could exclude this and concentrate on the more planned kidnap and snatch by a gang of paedophiles which is always the more unlikely scenario”, he said.
The investigator says that the Gardai would not have opened up the possibility of a breakthrough on the basis of such a wide search over such a short time. “We would have simply had an open ended search and not finished until we were confident that all the work was done and it cannot be done in four days after a gap of nearly seven years”, Bailey said.
The experience of the Gardai and the PSNI in the search for the disappeared from the troubles, has given these forces an expertise in searching for missing bodies and lost evidence.
“ We know from the disappeared that even when there are tip offs about the locations from those who actually, perpetrated the crimes then it is still very hard to find the bodies so this seems a very unrealistic and overly ambitious search by the Metropolitan Police", he said.
Despite indications of a breakthrough in the case, it is quite clear that the use of spades, pitch forks and some ground penetrating radar across three sites, one of which is over 15 acres, can only suggest that the Police are looking for a needle in a haystack.
One source close to the new investigators spoke of the concern among the team that the Met has made very little breakthrough despite the investment of more than 30 full time officers and nearly €10m in the investigation which was kick started last July after the intervention of the British Prime Minister.
Police sources say that search locations have been pinpointed by geographic crime profilers.
The sites were based on the distance that a child could have walked from
apartment 5a
where she disappeared from, or the distance where she could have been carried by a predator, and then perhaps abused or killed.
The investigators will be looking for either a piece of clothing or a body.
This line of enquiry suggests that the new investigators are unhappy with the quality of the original search but also that the new investigators, along with the original Portuguese Police team, believe that Maddie is no longer alive.
The McCann’s have long ignored this possibility understandably, but statistically; victims of child abductions are likely to be killed within days of kidnap.
“Victims of child abductions statistically are unlikely to survive the first 48 hours and the younger they are the more likely they are to be killed earlier. Those rare cases where abductees survive to be sex slaves are typically much, much older”, Professor David Wilson told the Sunday World.
http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/crime-desk/donal-macintyre-s-crime-cafe/mccann-search-lacks-commitment-and-direction-expert-claims

Can't agree Cheshire Cat, reads like negative propaganda coming directly from Team McCann.  Its only a couple of steps away from saying Madeleine is alive and findable.  It suits the McCanns if people think this search is nonsense.

Even if we believe SY were sticking a pin in a map, there is no way the Portuguese AG would grant permission to dig up a holiday resort in PDL on that basis - particularly during high season.

 
I note similar criticisms to those made by Pat Brown in terms of the approach being taken to identify areas to search. I find it interesting that the method selected to identify sites to potentially excavate is consistent with the stranger abduction theory - the terms of reference of operation Grange. This statement stands out in particular:
 
"One source close to the new investigators spoke of the concern among the team that the Met has made very little breakthrough despite the investment of more than 30 full time officers and nearly €10m in the investigation which was kick started last July after the intervention of the British Prime Minister."

[Guest]

I'm trying to keep up, the thread is moving so fast I hope this hasn't been asked already.

I read (Guardian I think) that the SY search had till Friday unless anything significant had been found, but also that the Attorney General was considering 2 other sites to be searched.

Anyone know more about this?   Have SY been given permission to extend the search, both in time and situation, or has nothing been decided yet.

With the amount of work going on and the analysis needed, till Friday seems short indeed.

[Newintown]

I'm trying to keep up, the thread is moving so fast I hope this hasn't been asked already.

I read (Guardian I think) that the SY search had till Friday unless anything significant had been found, but also that the Attorney General was considering 2 other sites to be searched.

Anyone know more about this?   Have SY been given permission to extend the search, both in time and situation, or has nothing been decided yet.

With the amount of work going on and the analysis needed, till Friday seems short indeed.

I read somewhere this afternoon (can't remember where now) that the search has been given permission to go beyond Friday.

[Gillyspot]

Daffodil I don't have an answer to your question (sorry) but has anyone else noticed that the McCanns villa (moved to in July 2007) is only around 200m away from the "snail"?

[wicksy]

I'm trying to keep up, the thread is moving so fast I hope this hasn't been asked already.

I read (Guardian I think) that the SY search had till Friday unless anything significant had been found, but also that the Attorney General was considering 2 other sites to be searched.

Anyone know more about this?   Have SY been given permission to extend the search, both in time and situation, or has nothing been decided yet.

With the amount of work going on and the analysis needed, till Friday seems short indeed.

I read somewhere this afternoon (can't remember where now) that the search has been given permission to go beyond Friday.

BBC are saying:

British and Portuguese officers are on the third day of searching an area cordoned off in Praia da Luz. The BBC understands the search could be extended if necessary.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27693059

[DurhamGuy1967]

Daffodil I don't have an answer to your question (sorry) but has anyone else noticed that the McCanns villa (moved to in July 2007) is only around 200m away from the "snail"?

I'd wondered that, where is it?

[Guest]

Oh OK, thanks Newintown and wicksy.   So nothing official yet then by the sound of it?

[wicksy]

Back from work, see the police are poking around yesterday's hole & still not a word from tm.

I wonder who talked?

Say in thread earlier Patricia & sandy Cameron divorced.  When was this & anyone know why?  Is there a thread?

Trish Cameron at the libel trial:

(02.10.2013, 10:25 am) (Patricia Cameron née McCann) Trish Cameron. Divorced and a nurse by occupation. 
The Judge asks her where she was when Madeleine disappeared. TC answers she was at home at the time, she was married and living in .........  She thinks that she was the first person Gerald McCann called after Madeleine was taken. She says she spoke to her local police and then spoke with her mother. She managed to get to Praia da Luz by the 5th May 2007 and remained there for 3 months before returning to the UK.  She later returned to Praia da Luz. 

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t7903-libel-trial-day-6-witness-1-trish-cameron?highlight=trish

No idea when they got divorced, but yes, Sandy may well know stuff that he's now prepared to talk about.

She's a nurse, and was able to take 3 months off for a hol to support little bruv.

[Shhh]

Thank you Wicksy

[gbwales]

Daffodil I don't have an answer to your question (sorry) but has anyone else noticed that the McCanns villa (moved to in July 2007) is only around 200m away from the "snail"?

Is there a link to an aerial photo with that marked up which you know of?

[ChippyM]

The article in Sunday World is quite surprising - it is highly critical of operation Grange. Worth reading and not dismissing.
 
Officers searching scrubland around the Praia da Luz resort for the body of Maddie McCann, or a clue to her whereabouts, are still shooting in the dark, cold case specialist Alan Bailey told the Sunday World.
The former head of the Irish Cold Case unit claims that the Metropolitan Police search is far to wide and lacking direction and demonstrates a lack of commitment to the case, exclusively claims today.
“A four day search on three sites totaling 17 or so acres, lasting four days shows a lack of commitment. Either you are going to search the area fully and completely, or you are not. If you can exclude the scrubland and potential burial sites or areas where clothing of evidence may have been discarded within a square kilometer of the apartment where she was last seen, then it becomes a very different type of crime”, Bailey an eminent cold case investigator, told the Sunday World.
The specialist says that if she was abducted by a fixated preferential paedophile in an opportunist way, then local scrubland would be a place to abuse and get rid of evidence.
“Most of these kind of abductions are really wrong place, wrong time, and so, an opportunist predator could have spotted Maddie leaving her apartment searching for her mother, and snatched her immediately. These offenders don’t need much planning because they are always looking for an configuration of events to make their escape and snatch”, he said.
......
http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/crime-desk/donal-macintyre-s-crime-cafe/mccann-search-lacks-commitment-and-direction-expert-claims

Can't agree Cheshire Cat, reads like negative propaganda coming directly from Team McCann.  Its only a couple of steps away from saying Madeleine is alive and findable.  It suits the McCanns if people think this search is nonsense.

Even if we believe SY were sticking a pin in a map, there is no way the Portuguese AG would grant permission to dig up a holiday resort in PDL on that basis - particularly during high season.

 
I note similar criticisms to those made by Pat Brown in terms of the approach being taken to identify areas to search. I find it interesting that the method selected to identify sites to potentially excavate is consistent with the stranger abduction theory - the terms of reference of operation Grange. This statement stands out in particular:
 
"One source close to the new investigators spoke of the concern among the team that the Met has made very little breakthrough despite the investment of more than 30 full time officers and nearly €10m in the investigation which was kick started last July after the intervention of the British Prime Minister."

No-one knows the reason why they are searching this area, I think Pat Brown and this guy from the Irish cold case unit are speculating based on what the media has said including the 4 day search time, which is unconfirmed. I really don't think they have any basis to argue the current search centres around a stranger abduction.

  Without wanting to go too off topic, RE. the latex gloves that have been mentioned recently, the video where Gerry is packing the boot - it's totally subjective, for some people it looks like he may be wearing a yellowish glove, for others this is easily explained by the sunlight and shadow on his hand making it look like there is some kind of demarcation between 'glove' and hand.

 For me I think logic solves the possibility of Gerry wearing gloves here. 1) there was no reason to protect the things being packed in the boot from fingerprints as they allready belonged to the McCanns and would be covered in their prints, 2) It makes absolutely no sense for Gerry to be filmed wearing latex gloves if this was a 'sneaky' attempt not to leave his finger prints. The filming was I think done by a friend of the McCann's who was fully authorised and would not be trying to catch them out in anyway.

[Markus 2]

(02.10.2013, 10:25 am) (Patricia Cameron née McCann) Trish Cameron. Divorced and a nurse by occupation. 
The Judge asks her where she was when Madeleine disappeared. TC answers she was at home at the time, she was married and living in .........  She thinks that she was the first person Gerald McCann called after Madeleine was taken. She says she spoke to her local police and then spoke with her mother. She managed to get to Praia da Luz by the 5th May 2007 and remained there for 3 months before returning to the UK.  She later returned to Praia da Luz. 

Interesting the first person but maybe he was closer to her then others in the family or maybe she was aware of problems well before , and you wonder if true if she was the person asked to look after Madeline because kate could not cope. ?

[sonic72]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

That's an old forum myth.  The picture from an angle looks a bit like gloves but there were none.  Dead end there.  

[tiny]

They look at bit dirt-y

[Guest]

I always have a big box of latex gloves at home. I hope, that doesn't make me a suspect?
I agree with others that Gerry is not wearing a glove in the Jon Corner production and that it's a momentary "Spiel" of light.
Much more interesting about this particular part of the video, is what PeterMac spotted: the split second reluctance of putting a box on the spare wheel cover ...

[Markus 2]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

That's an old forum myth.  The picture from an angle looks a bit like gloves but there were none.  Dead end there.  

Most know gloves were seen but he was not wearing them in the video of him packing things in the car. That has been talked about for ever and all is just a play on light in that video.