Re: June 2007 - blog and diary.

by anil39200 07.02.12 16:20

So, it was to be a 'disappearance in the long term' ? So either the psychics were really good, or .......Mmmm. well they should know, they were there, none of us were. thinking

by **tigger** 07.02.12 16:38

Stella wrote:
tigger wrote:I see the sea bass as an excuse for the bad smell in the car - I think one of the books on forensics found in the villa had a piece about sea bass giving off cadaverine scent. That's why I think something happened between the 24th May and 8th June - the mention of sea bass.

Sea bass does not give off the scent of cadaverine, that's absolute nonsense.

From Dr. Roberts; 15/9/2011: quote
Instructively, the McCanns reaction was not one of flabbergasted disbelief. On the contrary, and despite Kate McCann's account of her scepticism as regards the dogs' capabilities, we have the pair of them tacitly acknowledging the status quo. Gerry, whilst 'researching the validity of sniffer-dog evidence' announced that 'Seany' (Kate's term) had taken an unexpected fancy to sea-bass (potentially a source of cadaverine-like chemical odour). Were the McCanns accustomed to preparing their meals on (or, like Bedouin, eating them off) the floor? And how did the mobile corpse come to sprinkle its presence throughout the apartment; everywhere except for the very bedroom from which it was 'taken'? Then of course there is the issue of the hire car, and all manner of things transported in the spare wheel well! Kate, it was suggested, moonlighted in her beach wear as a mortician during her tenure as a locum G.P. unquote.

I'm pretty sure I've read the reference to the forensic sciences book somewhere reputable on line as well.

by **tigger** 07.02.12 17:00

kikoraton wrote:I'm not sure that anyone has grasped my point about the possibility of a double ceremony, each on the wild Atlantic coast, but a thousand km apart. Followed by a "period of grieving".

I'm getting it now! Sorry - yes the very early appearance of suspect photographs of the children (8/5) (nobody else!) in Donegal and Kate's admission that it was the first time ever they had visited there, despite this very, very close family and despite us seeing nothing of the massive Easter reunion of 27 - 46 family members....
The interview with the Belfast Telegraph at around 40 days would be aimed at the religious angle there.
The Sagres reunion, yes- for the family. Didn't the Naylors have some Irish connection? Property development or such like?
Possibly Gerry is mixing up the dates on purpose? 11th for the Irish (would be printed on 12th?), 9th for the family.
Forty days back from the 9th is the 1st or night of 30th. From the twelfth makes it the 3rd. Neat.
Gerry has to mention it for the benefit of people who are reading his blog. Kate writes months, years later and it's gone. Somehow one wonders if those two ever speak to each other.

by jd 07.02.12 17:17

anil39200 wrote:
kikoraton wrote:I'm not sure that anyone has grasped my point about the possibility of a double ceremony, each on the wild Atlantic coast, but a thousand km apart. Followed by a "period of grieving".

I got it, and the timings make sense from the religious point of view. However, imo, the religious 'zeal' exhibited by certain parties seems to be of pragmatic design and added to the myths to put a sympathetic slant on things. The questioning of God comments seem to have been lifted from another publication I have read but I cannot remember where at the moment.

If the date was April 30th, the timings of the religious thing for 30 days would be the day they met the Pope....and when the butterfly miraculously landed on kate

by **tigger** 07.02.12 17:26

jd wrote:
anil39200 wrote:
kikoraton wrote:I'm not sure that anyone has grasped my point about the possibility of a double ceremony, each on the wild Atlantic coast, but a thousand km apart. Followed by a "period of grieving".

I got it, and the timings make sense from the religious point of view. However, imo, the religious 'zeal' exhibited by certain parties seems to be of pragmatic design and added to the myths to put a sympathetic slant on things. The questioning of God comments seem to have been lifted from another publication I have read but I cannot remember where at the moment.

If the date was April 30th, the timings of the religious thing for 30 days would be the day they met the Pope....and when the butterfly miraculously landed on kate

I think that's incidental because they had no control over that date. I must find the youtube clip because it wasn't exactly a personal audience, they were shoehorned in with a bunch of other people who each got about half a minute from the Pope.
Never saw the butterfly, did see the great man just managing to push others aside to shake the hand of the Pope. (Clarrie) Hilarious.
Press as good as gold, all photographs make it look as if the Pope was there for their benefit.
The days for obligation to the dead (I lived in France for a while and in the country it's mostly observed);
3 days prayer (if 30th on the 3rd PdL church)
12 days church service (special service in PdL church Sat. 12th - the jolly one)
40 days, family and friends remembrance/requiem. (9th june Sagres)
3 months, visit the graveside to say goodbye. (Huelva)

by jd 07.02.12 17:41

tigger wrote: I think that's incidental because they had no control over that date. I must find the youtube clip because it wasn't exactly a personal audience, they were shoehorned in with a bunch of other people who each got about half a minute from the Pope.
Never saw the butterfly, did see the great man just managing to push others aside to shake the hand of the Pope. (Clarrie) Hilarious.
Press as good as gold, all photographs make it look as if the Pope was there for their benefit.
The days for obligation to the dead (I lived in France for a while and in the country it's mostly observed);
3 days prayer (if 30th on the 3rd PdL church)
12 days church service (special service in PdL church Sat. 12th - the jolly one)
40 days, family and friends remembrance/requiem. (9th june Sagres)
3 months, visit the graveside to say goodbye. (Huelva)

There seem to be consistency there with these dates and the religious thing. If I remember rightly after the 40 day kates parents who were in PDL flew back to the UK the next day, after the remembrance/requiem perhaps? Their mobile phone activity was also consistent to these dates and these do not lie just like the dogs don't! I would have thought some government strings were pulled to get them to shake the Popes hand, I read clarrie the clown saying the butterfly was a sign Maddie was alive and came down to see them! Please don't laugh!! However, the butterfly is also another sign!!!!

re Huelva, this does seem to be a popular place. This is where allegedly Genaro acosta Gonzales ran too who allegedly was the 3rd partner in Murats new company Romigen. And Amaral was in Huelva when he received the call to say he was off the case

by **tigger** 07.02.12 18:53

Stella wrote:
tigger wrote:I see the sea bass as an excuse for the bad smell in the car - I think one of the books on forensics found in the villa had a piece about sea bass giving off cadaverine scent. That's why I think something happened between the 24th May and 8th June - the mention of sea bass.

Sea bass does not give off the scent of cadaverine, that's absolute nonsense.

Lifted from justice for maddie blog: quote:
If you Google "sea bass and cadaver odour" up come lots of scientific papers, many of which contain the name W M BASS in their references. This is how I found out about his book Death's Acre.

As Gerry had a number of forensic books as his bedtime reading it is not inconceivable that he knew all about WM Bass and his work at the Body Farm, including all about cadaver odour. unquote

I've just read one of those papers. I also wonder about the red Tshirt that was too big for Sean. I think that's what Maddie was wearing.
Putting the t shirt on Sean and mentioning the sea bass, must have made Gerry feel 'clever'. imo

by jd 07.02.12 19:03

tigger wrote:
Stella wrote:
tigger wrote:I see the sea bass as an excuse for the bad smell in the car - I think one of the books on forensics found in the villa had a piece about sea bass giving off cadaverine scent. That's why I think something happened between the 24th May and 8th June - the mention of sea bass.

Sea bass does not give off the scent of cadaverine, that's absolute nonsense.

Lifted from justice for maddie blog: quote:
If you Google "sea bass and cadaver odour" up come lots of scientific papers, many of which contain the name W M BASS in their references. This is how I found out about his book Death's Acre.

As Gerry had a number of forensic books as his bedtime reading it is not inconceivable that he knew all about WM Bass and his work at the Body Farm, including all about cadaver odour. unquote

I've just read one of those papers. I also wonder about the red Tshirt that was too big for Sean. I think that's what Maddie was wearing.
Putting the t shirt on Sean and mentioning the sea bass, must have made Gerry feel 'clever'. imo

Good work Tigger

by **tigger** 07.02.12 19:15

I've been looking for this - can't get HideHo's timeline properly aligned - missing the right half.

10th June Phone ping between Gerry and ROB who was about 28 km away.

Blog: Morning they went to mass, and quote: We drove up to Lisbon late this afternoon to catch a flight to Casablanca where embassy officials will meet us. unquote.

After Marocco a new phase had started? To decide what their roles were going to be.

16th is the visit to the zoo, when imo they look totally relaxed and relieved?

I believe the PJ connected this with a barn, and fibres which were found both there and in the Renault?

by Badboys 07.02.12 22:02

tigger wrote:
kikoraton wrote:I'm not sure that anyone has grasped my point about the possibility of a double ceremony, each on the wild Atlantic coast, but a thousand km apart. Followed by a "period of grieving".

I'm getting it now! Sorry - yes the very early appearance of suspect photographs of the children (8/5) (nobody else!) in Donegal and Kate's admission that it was the first time ever they had visited there, despite this very, very close family and despite us seeing nothing of the massive Easter reunion of 27 - 46 family members....
The interview with the Belfast Telegraph at around 40 days would be aimed at the religious angle there.
The Sagres reunion, yes- for the family. Didn't the Naylors have some Irish connection? Property development or such like?
Possibly Gerry is mixing up the dates on purpose? 11th for the Irish (would be printed on 12th?), 9th for the family.
Forty days back from the 9th is the 1st or night of 30th. From the twelfth makes it the 3rd. Neat.
Gerry has to mention it for the benefit of people who are reading his blog. Kate writes months, years later and it's gone. Somehow one wonders if those two ever speak to each other.

A robert naylor is associated with real property opportunities.

ainne might be a irish name(o'connolly? might be maiden name)

by dentdelion 07.02.12 22:17

Aine is the the Irish for Anne... one 'n' and with an accent or fada on the A

by Guest 08.02.12 9:01

jd wrote:
tigger wrote:
Stella wrote:
tigger wrote:I see the sea bass as an excuse for the bad smell in the car - I think one of the books on forensics found in the villa had a piece about sea bass giving off cadaverine scent. That's why I think something happened between the 24th May and 8th June - the mention of sea bass.

Sea bass does not give off the scent of cadaverine, that's absolute nonsense.

Lifted from justice for maddie blog: quote:
If you Google "sea bass and cadaver odour" up come lots of scientific papers, many of which contain the name W M BASS in their references. This is how I found out about his book Death's Acre.

As Gerry had a number of forensic books as his bedtime reading it is not inconceivable that he knew all about WM Bass and his work at the Body Farm, including all about cadaver odour. unquote

I've just read one of those papers. I also wonder about the red Tshirt that was too big for Sean. I think that's what Maddie was wearing.
Putting the t shirt on Sean and mentioning the sea bass, must have made Gerry feel 'clever'. imo

Good work Tigger

If you want the best, accurate advice there is, always speak to the expert. Not someone who has never trained a EVRD dog.

In Martin Grimes Rogatory Interview and Personal Profile, he tells you everything you need to know.

EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. (Not fish, pig)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD. A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat. The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample. There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Highly trained CSI and EVRD dogs can tell the difference between fish, pigs and humans.

by **tigger** 08.02.12 9:31

Stella wrote:
jd wrote:
tigger wrote:
Stella wrote:
tigger wrote:I see the sea bass as an excuse for the bad smell in the car - I think one of the books on forensics found in the villa had a piece about sea bass giving off cadaverine scent. That's why I think something happened between the 24th May and 8th June - the mention of sea bass.

Sea bass does not give off the scent of cadaverine, that's absolute nonsense.

Lifted from justice for maddie blog: quote:
If you Google "sea bass and cadaver odour" up come lots of scientific papers, many of which contain the name W M BASS in their references. This is how I found out about his book Death's Acre.

As Gerry had a number of forensic books as his bedtime reading it is not inconceivable that he knew all about WM Bass and his work at the Body Farm, including all about cadaver odour. unquote

I've just read one of those papers. I also wonder about the red Tshirt that was too big for Sean. I think that's what Maddie was wearing.
Putting the t shirt on Sean and mentioning the sea bass, must have made Gerry feel 'clever'. imo

Good work Tigger

If you want the best, accurate advice there is, always speak to the expert. Not someone who has never trained a EVRD dog.

In Martin Grimes Rogatory Interview and Personal Profile, he tells you everything you need to know.

EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. (Not fish, pig)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD. A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat. The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample. There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Highly trained CSI and EVRD dogs can tell the difference between fish, pigs and humans.

I have no doubt that Martin Grimes is right. However that was not the point of the sea bass comment I posted. As it is scientifically established that cavaderine odour can result from decomposing sea bass (and these papers were available at the time), Gerry may have thought to mention it in his blog for that reason. That was my point.
I don't doubt that highly trained dogs may be able to distinguish between different sources of cadaverine, but I do doubt whether Gerry knew this.

As this is about cadaverine, the story about the blood found in a fishing boat by Keela doesn't apply.
The 'pig, not fish' comment, I do not understand. I never said that the dogs were trained using sea bass.
There are very few dogs in the world trained to the standard of Eddie and Keela, therefore forensic manuals may well include information on substances that may be confused with human cadaverine. Most police dogs would not be up to these high standards.

Eddie alerted to the red T shirt - for me that means exactly the same scent as all the other locations where he alerted. Namely human cadaverine.

by kikoraton 08.02.12 9:44

Good work done here on those dates of religious significance - tho we're none of us convinced just how religious the McCs really were!
Robert Naylor - investment banking. The sort which loses the ordinary citizen's savings whilst the bankers come up smelling of roses (rather than sea-bass shark

). Known work experience Edinburgh and London, but may have business connections with Groby/Rothley. Wife Àinne née O'Connell. East London Irish apparently.

Why Huelva, tigger? Cos of the McCann trip there after 3 months? My guess is, she's buried in the Republic of Ireland.
Tigger: have you given any thought to my last PM to you? I know you've been busy.

by jd 08.02.12 10:04

Good work done here on those dates of religious significance - tho we're none of us convinced just how religious the McCs really were!

The religious aspect could be a smoke screen, you are right not sure how really religious they are as in other areas they don't behave like children of god!....But they are very big on dates and anniversary dates, and plan things ahead of time to mark an anniversary date of some sort. This is obviously one aspect of how their minds works and if they are religious then you can be sure they follow the religious dates too

My guess is, she's buried in the Republic of Ireland.

I've never thought if this before, what makes you think this? interesting. Ive always though buried somewhere in Portgual/Spain, in the sea or cremated with the ashes back in Rothley

by kikoraton 08.02.12 10:38

My hunch is no better than anyone's. But that family reunion in Donegal before the Praia holiday was pretty enormous. There must have been some reason for it. Farewell to a very sick Maddie? Plus the stuff we have been discussing on this thread - Gerry's blog addressing himself to the Irish people raised the thought in my mind that perhaps the Sagres meeting had a counterpart near Donegal. If the now-whooshed blog wasn't, in some respects, a heads-up to various groups or individuals, then what was it? I'm a geographic romantic - the idea of simultaneous ceremonies perched on the rocky headlands of Donegal and Sagres appealed to me!
Then, I've got this bee in my bonnet about M Paolo Maya Gonçalves and his transport company. Payne took three calls from him on the evening of 4 May. He's into logistics, in other words, computerized movements of goods around the world. And he didn't reply to my emails, which in my book makes him suspect!!
There is something else, but we don't want to make public too much of what we note.

by Guest 08.02.12 10:43

tigger wrote:I have no doubt that Martin Grimes is right. However that was not the point of the sea bass comment I posted. As it is scientifically established that cavaderine odour can result from decomposing sea bass (and these papers were available at the time),

Wrong. Human cadaverine cannot result from decomposing fish. Some smart arse with a Phd in diddly squat did a thesis of this and came up with the square root of a tree. It means nothing to this particular case. Eddie has only ever alerted to human cadaverine. So we need to keep these basic facts to the forefront on this particualr forum. We do not want to slip into the realms of confused information, now do we. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Gerry may have thought to mention it in his blog for that reason. That was my point. I don't doubt that highly trained dogs may be able to distinguish between different sources of cadaverine, but I do doubt whether Gerry knew this.

Confusion is always good, when hiding from the truth.

As this is about cadaverine, the story about the blood found in a fishing boat by Keela doesn't apply.

Oh, but it does. It serves to prove a point, that if one of Martin Grime's dogs can tell the difference between fish blood and human blood, then you can be absolutely sure that the other can tell the difference between human cadaverine and rotting fish.

There are very few dogs in the world trained to the standard of Eddie and Keela,

That's right. It was the British dog trainer, Martin Grime who was the first to create these types of dogs. This is why the FBI requested his services, shortly after the revelations from both Jersey and Portugal came to light, which led to his work finishing very swiftly in Yorkshire.

by **tigger** 08.02.12 10:50

jd wrote:
Good work done here on those dates of religious significance - tho we're none of us convinced just how religious the McCs really were!

The religious aspect could be a smoke screen, you are right not sure how really religious they are as in other areas they don't behave like children of god!....But they are very big on dates and anniversary dates, and plan things ahead of time to mark an anniversary date of some sort. This is obviously one aspect of how their minds works and if they are religious then you can be sure they follow the religious dates too

My guess is, she's buried in the Republic of Ireland.

I've never thought if this before, what makes you think this? interesting. Ive always though buried somewhere in Portgual/Spain, in the sea or cremated with the ashes back in Rothley

The religious angle is surely to soothe the consciences of the collective families. Good/bad Catholics may sin as long as one is suitably sorry and does penance. So all the obligations to the dead were fulfilled and can be proved to have been fulfilled. Even so, the Pope whooshed them from the Vatican website. I am not denigrating Catholics here, just the way that some RCs operate.
There is no actual proof of the family reunion in Donegal and it was the very first visit of Kate and Co. The Donegal angle is tenuous at best. All we have are three photographs of children, where imo Maddie's face was pasted in.
Too risky and complicated to bury her in Donegal. But romantic.
(Kiko you should read 'Facing the Ocean' by Barry Cunliffe - the close connection of people on the Atlantic seaboard from neolithic times onwards!)

Meanwhile I'm still trying to reduce things to as few people as possible and as few moves as possible. Always back to Dr. Ludke who said this plan must have been talked about a long time before the act.

by **tigger** 08.02.12 11:00

Stella wrote:
tigger wrote:I have no doubt that Martin Grimes is right. However that was not the point of the sea bass comment I posted. As it is scientifically established that cavaderine odour can result from decomposing sea bass (and these papers were available at the time),

Wrong. Human cadaverine cannot result from decomposing fish. Some smart arse with a Phd in diddly squat did a thesis of this and came up with the square root of a tree. It means nothing to this particular case. Eddie has only ever alerted to human cadaverine. So we need to keep these basic facts to the forefront on this particualr forum. We do not want to slip into the realms of confused information, now do we. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I never said that human cadaverine results from sea bass[/b]I said that cadaverine odour can result etc.

Gerry may have thought to mention it in his blog for that reason. That was my point. I don't doubt that highly trained dogs may be able to distinguish between different sources of cadaverine, but I do doubt whether Gerry knew this.

Confusion is always good, when hiding from the truth.

As this is about cadaverine, the story about the blood found in a fishing boat by Keela doesn't apply.

Oh, but it does. It serves to prove a point, that if one of Martin Grime's dogs can tell the difference between fish blood and human blood, then you can be absolutely sure that the other can tell the difference between human cadaverine and rotting fish.
Sorry, no because A can detect blood, it does not follow that his mate B can detect cadaverine. These are two separate issues and one does not follow from the other. Again, I have never said that Eddie can't detect between human cadaverine and rotting fish.

There are very few dogs in the world trained to the standard of Eddie and Keela,

That's right. It was the British dog trainer, Martin Grime who was the first to create these types of dogs. This is why the FBI requested his services, shortly after the revelations from both Jersey and Portugal came to light, which led to his work finishing very swiftly in Yorkshire.

This is the last I will post on this subject. Otherwise it will descend into an unseemly row which is pointless or indeed 'nonsense'.
Read my post before this one again please, I feel it sets my points out quite clearly.

This conversation should never have come about in the first place. All you have done is add to the confusion that is already out there, which is not helpful to this forum.

by Daisy 08.02.12 11:20

kikoraton wrote:
My guess is, she's buried in the Republic of Ireland.

It's not the first time this as crossed my mind. Such a huge family gathering is usually for some family event: Wedding, christening or funeral. Add to the mix - the mysterious McCann friend, pub landlord Joe Peoples - who also appears to be the local undertaker in St Johnston Donegal!

by jd 08.02.12 11:53

Just reading some of the early blogs in May. There is a lot about what they did with the twins etc and their days but hardly anything said about Maddie, just a vague we had a meeting here and there and ending we love you you Maddie kind of thing. You would never think Maddie is really missing reading them

My favourite is from 20th May 2007, the day before he went back to the UK to retrieve the pooslside pix & airport video

"Kate is a keen runner and in the last few days has tried to include a run in the
daily routine. Yesterday (Sat) at 7am we ran to the monument at the top of the steep cliff overlooking Praia de
Luz. We reached it in 19 minutes.:

Amazing!

by Daisy 08.02.12 12:10

tigger wrote:
Day 40 - 12/06/2007 - Tuesday
DAY GERRY USED Day 39 -12/06/2007
Tonight we have also gone to the church for prayers, as it is now 40 days and nightssince Madeleine was abducted.

It's the first time I've noticed this (thanks tigger).

Unfortunately I don't have time to post in full right now but I will come back to this later. So just to say the term '40 days & nights' is not merely christian terminolgy (biblical) it is found throughout many other religions & mystery schools - including the freemasons. The number 40 is deemed to be sacred & highly symbolic.

I've heard it suggested many times that GM's blogs were riddled with coded messages; I believe this to be true.

by Guest 08.02.12 13:20

Tigger, here's a clip of the Reuters report on the papal visit. I wonder if the butterfly incident actually happened or was just made up.

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by juliet 08.02.12 14:03

The McCanns or their apologists had various explanations for the smell of a dead body in the apartment: not only Kate and her six corpses and Sean's love of sea bass, but that Kate had some sort of woman's problem....I remember being rather shocked at how far Team McCann would go to explain away what the dogs had found.

by **tigger** 08.02.12 14:24

Jean wrote:Tigger, here's a clip of the Reuters report on the papal visit. I wonder if the butterfly incident actually happened or was just made up.

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Thank Jean, like you, I note a total lack of butterflies. Certainly unlikely in the middle of a square full of people and no greenery nearby. Perhaps part of the myth, together with reading the children stories at bedtime. Having seen Kate 'playing' with the twins in the kitchen in Rothley, I think she'd need an instruction manual.