Alan D. Elsdon - My Theories

Didn't the "contact" who arrived from Britain on the 1st of May, go to the end of the world that night?

Is it being implied Gerry temporarily hid Madeleine's body and the "contact" then went and removed her?

Any body weighed down properly will remain on the seabed for five or more years. In that time, with the exposure to the elements and sea creatures, it will become part of the seabed - nothing would remain that could surface.

So why didn't Gerry throw Madeleine, weighted down, into the water, what was the reason for the "contact" to attend?

Am I reading something wrong?

even the most balanced weighted body will surface someday, unless it is in warm seas such as Arabian sea, however Aegean / Mediterranean & Atlantic are cold seas / ocean and how did they removed Maddie's body without taking any attention that's one of the questions that I keep asking to myself (not that I believe into McCann's, they are evil for what they have done to their daughter) and without being seen.   How did the body was disposed without taken any attention..

Blue bag?

Jill Havern wrote:Blue bag?

I suppose so, a sports bag, won't take any attention.

Missing blue bag, missing pink blanket...

that land's end is quite a attraction for tourists. end of the e9 grand randonnee, lots of activity in fishing, diving sailing, walking. seen from the beaches below, or the lighthouse. 

also a place people who go by in a boat, or plane would look to. 

there is a dirt road, does not look easy drivable with a ordinary car, if it is even allowed at all. by footh it is not an even path, and not done in little time. 

and the wind would not have made it very easy to get a blue bag into the sea. 

all those tracks on google means feet of people.

land's ends in europe are usually pretty busy. 

also that blue bag is not very likely to fit out with enough weight to keep a small body down to the seabed. 
you have to throw it at least so far, that it gets out of the tide zones. the sea or ocean will take a lot, but gives back a lot too. 

there is a small stream that is pushed from the bassin of cadiz that follows the coast of portugal to the north. the atlantic  stream pushes that from the westside up. 
looks like a big risk that what is thrown into the sea at that crossing point of bassin of cadiz to atlantic to end up on the rocks or beaches up north in portugal. 

why would you choose that risk, when there are ships and yachts at hand, or easier just travel over land by car. in 2007 there were no boundaries on land. and if you had help, it must have been easy to find a ferry to the uk, only the overnight ferries do bookings on people, the others let you pay for car plus a max in passengers. they only look for more then paid for not less.  

and as long as the uk was the country to assist there would be no problems. outbound travel by road or ferry never had any control in these years. 

so why would throwing a bag of a scenic spot on the rocks looks like a good and safe way to get rid of a body?

It can't have been the blue bag they threw into the sea on the 1st of May, it was photographed in 5a in the early hours of 4th May.

I have always believed her body been brought back to UK one way or the other and had private burial either in an unmarked grave or under a false name. 

But since the government is involved one of the helpers might hop into a boat throw her body somewhere into the ocean or they paid someone handsomely a fisherman etc they got rid of the body, a fisherman boat won't take any attention.

your right, the 'blue bag' was still there on the third.

but any bag of that size would not do it.

look at this drone video, from 6 minutes in, that part of the coast come in vision. 

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it simply does not look like a site to do something secretly. 

2007 was the last year before the economy made a downfall, and spring, mostly from easter on, was the time the grey haired tourists fled the wetter, to spain and portugal coasts in masses. portugal was very cheap and that bunch would travel with campers and caravans to just that type of places. 

also if you look at the strength of the waves out there, you could not simply use some local rocks and stones to fill in a bag, that was usable to transport a small body over to the cliffs itself, and be trusted it will stay down to the seabed. 


the moment you accept the mccanns had assistance, and this was a professional form of assistance, meaning little law and formalities to get in your way. there is no need for secretly travels to a lands end, to walk on difficult footing with your dead child on your back or in your hands. 
that is no simple way to do something. 

all mister x had to do was drive up to 5a and load up the body in the car and drive of. if mister x was a pro, he had the knowledge and capabilities to get a body out there. if mister x was a helper of amateur status it could work. 

if you can arrange to get pay as you go phones on the steps of the police offices in portimao, on 4 mai, a car on 3 mai or before that would also possible. the pj looked into that. but nobody had anything to say about a car and the mccanns, and all people around including the portuguese are strangers to the tourists. 

for a inside amateur job, i would look into direct family. wasn't there a sister of gerry with a house in spain, does anyone know where such a house could have been. 

if you have to set up a story, most of what was needed to be happen, would have taken place before 22.00 hours of 3 mai 2007. from that time on the puppets must have been on the right places. 
looking in who became the helping hands after 3 mai, would not tell, were and what they have done before that date. 

if holiday families could travel in 2 days driving from the netherlands to the algarve coasts, a helper could do the same. the problem is there are no true borders anymore on europe mainland. and flying in to any other airport from the uk by a charter is also just some hours. rent a car and go on to portugal. 

if the assistance exits from family or known people, let's call them the amateur bunch, this would not give an explanation for the massive boots on the ground from official uk sources. 

and really if only transport of a body out of portugal was a pro job, there was no need for so much assistance from those boots on the ground as well. secret service is just that, working in silence, in secret. 

so even assistance does not explain that massive uk input.

to bird;

the portuguese investigation did not go downhill after the dogs, it was never started to go uphill from the start.

between 22.00 and 23.00 hours on 3 mai, there was a kind of drive in party in 5a. from 4 to 7 mai half of the uk officials were flown in. 

ever heard of an ambassador that made it happen that all clothes from a potential crime scene would be washed. 
the whole jane tanner fixes robert murat was a british excursion. 
praia da luz became a second gibraltar, a full british aperock. 

the dogs came in after advise of mark harrison, but who did tell the pj of mark harrison. 

the british boots did know all the portuguese had, there is no need to set up the crime scene in 5a. that investigation never had a chance to go uphill. 

the portuguese did never something to keep the mccanns in portugal, they did go back with the whole family to a christian of a child of friends in the uk. the traveled halve the world. the mccanns could have just decide to not going back. the uk could easily have decided to not extradite then to portugal. 

the circus acts were not needed. so why did they happen?

The disposal of a corpse leads to the obvious questions - who when and why?

Aside from the factitious Germanman which has far exceeded the level of sensibility, who when and why would anyone elect to dispose of a little baby corpse in such a barbaric manner?

I wouldn't trust Gerry and Kate McCann further than I could socially distance them but even they couldn't treat their baby daughter in that way - could they?

Of course anything is possible, well almost, but I feel it wise to stick to evidence and plausibility before galloping into the realms of the surreal, as tempting as the journey might appear to the curious.

Of course it's possible a corpse could be given to the ocean, if heavily weighted it would eventually be devoured by ocean life and it's remains - if any, scattered in the ocean bed but would any loving parent be capable of such an act?

But crime can be solved without A corpse and that is where this mystery lies I believe. With or without corpse this mystery will never be solved - it's buried deeper than the deep sea scrolls. It will never ever be solved through the eyes of the law.

That is where the mystery lies - the case itself is comparatively straightforward, at least in terms of routine policing.

I'm aonished so many British authorities, past and present, have failed to acknowledge the glaringly obvious - or am I?

Suspicion surrounding the McCann faction is totally warranted in my view but I do believe before the tragic event late April and early May 2007, the McCanns did love and cherish their child.  Which make the subsequent actions even more curious.  Religious or not, I believe disposal of the body was done with respect and care for a little three year old child.

Psychopaths are capable of anything but I don't feel it reasonable to think Gerry nor Kate McCann fall withing that category - self preservation springs to mind.

A corpse can be disposed of in so many ways that could be considered undetectable in the short/long term .... there is no such thing as the perfect crime.  

The crime needs to be buried along with the corpse - this I believe to the be case with missing Madeleine McCann.

Why?

Money speaks volumes but sometimes morals prevail, especially when a little child is the focus. Under the circumstances, who could agree to be contracted to perform such a gross act of indecency?

I've only visited the Algarve once, although many years ago admittedly. I hired a car to travel around, one destination being World's End - a popular tourist attraction by name alone for obvious reasons. I venture to suggest disposal of a corpse in such an open space that attracts tourists from across the globe would be risky indeed.

Criminals work better in crowds where they can operate undetected, or remote locations away from prying eyes.

My thoughts have always been with the media focus. The Portuguese police were very unhappy about media attention to the case, it was their policing policy at the time. The McCann faction however used the media to their advantage, negative and positive publicity it mattered not, Just as long as the media followed the case. Whilst the cameras were rolling and journalists stomping the streets of Luz - who knows what was going on in the shadows.

A good investigative journalist worth it's salt would detach itself from the mainstream dictate and follow the evidence. That would be the only route to follow. In the case of missing Madeleine McCann this did not happen - they all followed the press agency lead. Where did that lead? In a labyrinth of deception - that's where it led!

Does anyone care?

Yes.we do and that's why we are here over fourteen years down the line.

onehand ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])
Yes, places like "End of the World" are huge tourists attractions. If you view the Helder Afonso video (9:13 minutes) of Cape St Vincent, you will see numerous tourist buses in the parking area next to the lighthouse. You will also see a small group of people walking on the edge of one of the the cliffs.
But, you will not see one vehicle or person on "Cliff 1249", because it is off the main road and visibly too dangerous to visit. Those footpaths and vehicle tracks appear to have been made over the years and not accessible to the tourists who arrive in buses ... with personal safety foremost in their minds.
Even tourists in taxi's or hired vehicles, would rather stick to the safer road leading directly to the lighthouse from which magnificent photographs and videos can be taken.
The condition of the dirt road, the winds, temperature of the sea and its currents, these would be the least of concerns at the time. The main object would have been to accomplish the gruesome but easy task. The best times would have been around sunset or early morning, when most were still in their beds.
Even if the body did surface a year or two later .. how could any specific person ever be linked to the deed?
In terms of risks, my theory involves far less risks than the transporting of a body in a hired car weeks later in or around Algarve or to Spain. The idea of a road and ferry trip to Britain is a nightmare. In terms of "being respectful", that disappeared the moment those involved decided to keep Madeleine's death a secret to protect their own future's.

I don't believe for one second Madeleine's body was ever in the hire car.

I believe the cadaverine scent Eddie detected was transfer scent.

The blood Keela detected was minute, not in keeping with a body being transported in the boot.

if there is a grand randonnee route it is not seen as unsafe, those wandering routes could be difficult or hard at times, but are not unsafe. the are very popular also. 

google earth would not likely show always people. google earth is no reality at all. 

look for amsterdam in the netherlands, in reality you would hardly see any disposal container that have not any waist around it, on google earth it is very hard to find one that is not seen in the wanted perspective. 
the same with ugly bikes in heap or rows, very common in reality, not on google earth. 
so do not trust on google earth to much, to see how busy it could be. 

a quick search in google pictures tells another story in what people do around and on that cape. 

if it was a unsafe place, portugal had just done the same as any other country, put in a fence and some signs with forbidden, or restricted in at least 3 languages. there would certainly not have been a grand randonnee route. 

pro assistance would not go for a place like that. 

i don't know if you have traveled europe in those years yourself, but traveling with such a load to a place that was suited for burial was easy. it is not strange to have a big cooler with you. there was no border control anymore. even if you were hold up by police or customs inland, they did not search a vehicle like before schengen. only show your identity card or passport and driver's license, sometimes insurance card for the car and it was going again. as long you were a eu citizen, you have all the rights to be where you wanted. 

a pro job from a eu government could have been traveling with a diplomatic passport. meaning no officer of law would have tried to touch you or your belongings. 

there was no need anymore to keeping book of who you had in your accommodation. also you could rent accomodation upfront. pro job means no restrictions from law. from such a kind of help, you expect they know how to travel. 

even now, half of the expat population in europe is illegal, some already for years. 

if you look at the numbers for transport in human traffic, protected animals and plants, drugs, and everything that is illegal, these are enormous, why would a body be difficult or risky. 

i agree with verdi, i do not see the mccanns as people who would push the body of their daughter over a cliff.

i never got a feeling the dead of madeleine was by their hands, or actions, not in a direct way. i can understand, that an accident without the parents responsibility, could give a complete different frame of mind in parents. if they have no reason to feel guilt to it, and for an outsider that would look different, being abroad, different laws and rules. they could have concluded that keeping silent and let the body go in silence, with absence of the child by missing and abduction, became the reality for them. 
it would means they made a choice and still keeping on in following that choice.

keeping on with their story is a one way road, no going back. what keep them doing it at the start, is still keeping them going. the true story will, and now even more, destroy their social and professional life.  

besides accidental, the death itself could also have been natural. and that could have been far more prone to made a decision to set up a abduction. the heart doctor with a career that was already going up to the top, missing a heart problem in his own child, would not have been very welcome. 

but a theory is one thing, i would like to see the facts and circumstances.  everything you do leaves something behind. let's start easy, which phones did gerry use to reach his contact in the uk. the pj has the records for the full week. how and when did gerry get out of the reach of those phone listings, and how could he have knowledge of what they could trace. 

as a former officer of the law, you know very well, that theories are nice to have, that possible means you have to look into those possibilities, but without any facts and circumstances, every theory become void.

onehand (# 116), the attached Helder Afonso video (9:13 minutes), gives a truly realistic insight into the "End of the World" and daily tourist activities. The few people who venture away from the parking area obviously do so at their own risk. There are no fences or restrictions to prevent people from reaching the ends of the cliffs.
Despite the parking area being full of buses, cars and people, you will notice that on "Cliff 1249" at the same time, there was absolutely no activity.
Although Google Earth is a useful tool, I agree it is not ideal on its own in these circumstances. That's one of the reasons I viewed the video, to obtain a more realistic and "on the ground" feeling for the area.
Regarding the urgent calls to the UK, they would never have been made from the private cellphones of persons who might later become 'suspects' in the disappearance of Madeleine. Most likely, secure cellphones would have been used in Sagres or elsewhere on 30 April 2007 and thereafter - not to leave any records.

Can I just ask, where is the concrete evidence that the McCann's ever visited the end of the world area?

Without definite proof of this, I'm afraid it's a non starter.

crusader .. the visit of the McCanns to Sagres on 30 April 2007 was widely reported in the reliable British media. There is your 'concrete evidence' that they were a mere 7 kilometers away from the "End of the World", just days before Madeleine went 'missing'.
Strangely, Kate made no mention of this trip in her book, Madeleine. One has to wonder why she and Gerry prefer to erase the town Sagres and 30 April 2007 from the minds of curious people.
Many dreams are based on facts and in the dream Kate had shortly after Madeleine was abducted, she told Gerry of "seeing Maddie lying cold and mottled on a big grey stone slab".
If this was a normal 'innocent dream' Kate had, then why would Gerry be so quick to say the dream never happened? Is it because below "Cliff 1249" at the "End of the World", lies an almost identical 'big grey stone slab' in the sea?
But crusader, if you regard my theory as a 'non-starter', that's what theories and debates are all about, people sharing their different opinions in a civil manner. You probably won't be wasting any more of your time following my take on the mystery, so allow me to thank you for your participation.

crusader wrote:I don't believe for one second Madeleine's body was ever in the hire car.

I believe the cadaverine scent Eddie detected was transfer scent.

The blood Keela detected was minute, not in keeping with a body being transported in the boot.

Apart from any other factor, the smell of death can't be brushed under the carpet nor washed away or dissipated by air - like leaving a a car boot open. If a corpse had been transported in the Renault Scenic, I would expect a canine response to be more than videoed by Martin Grime's crew. The scent of death knocks you back, not something you will ever forget and that's without dogs!

My opinion is the same as the dog alerts in apartment 5a Ocean Club and the villa later occupied by the McCann family - in particular the clothing. As I've said many times in the past, if Kate McCann had been wearing the harlequin trews when handling the body of her dead child, would she be so hard hearted - or stupid enough to continue wearing the same trews throughout the summer of 2007 and on their return journey to the UK in September 2007?

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Highly unlikely I venture to suggest. The cuddlecat alert has also been questioned by me in the past, apart from cuddlecat's rise to fame being pole position of Kate McCann's 'must have' fashion accessory, I don't think the toy was Madeleine's comfort toy - if it had been it would be tattered, torn and very grubby! Kate McCann washed it? Nah - no loving mother would do that.

The specialist dog appeared to me to be playing with the toy, although I know many disagree with me. Yet again individual observation.

The forensic evidence in this case has been metaphorically washed scrubbed and hung out to dry more times than cuddlecat. I think it started it's life intact - in the custody of the PJ but then it was foolishly handed over to the British authorities who just can't resist the opportunity to meddle.

Bird131 wrote:crusader .. the visit of the McCanns to Sagres on 30 April 2007 was widely reported in the reliable British media. There is your 'concrete evidence' that they were a mere 7 kilometers away from the "End of the World", just days before Madeleine went 'missing'.

And there lies the clue - widely reported by the British media!

The subject has been discussed extensively here on CMOMM in the distant past, if I remember rightly the alleged visit on 30th April 2007 was debunked.   I'll see if I can find it.

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No offence was meant by me and I'm sorry if it came across as such.

I like concrete evidence and facts.

Just because it was reported in the UK press as fact, it does not make it true.

I would love your theory to be true and goodness knows you have far more experience in these matters than me.

I will continue to research the McCann visit to Sagres, amongst other things, but what I have read up to now about the visit doesn't prove they were there, and I will continue to follow this thread and comment when I see fit.

Verdi wrote:

crusader wrote:I don't believe for one second Madeleine's body was ever in the hire car.

I believe the cadaverine scent Eddie detected was transfer scent.

The blood Keela detected was minute, not in keeping with a body being transported in the boot.

Apart from any other factor, the smell of death can't be brushed under the carpet nor washed away or dissipated by air - like leaving a a car boot open.  If a corpse had been transported in the Renault Scenic, I would expect a canine response to be more than videoed by Martin Grime's crew.  The scent of death knocks you back, not something you will ever forget and that's without dogs!

My opinion is the same as the dog alerts in apartment 5a Ocean Club and the villa later occupied by the McCann family - in particular the clothing.  As I've said many times in the past, if Kate McCann had been wearing the harlequin trews when handling the body of her dead child, would she be so hard hearted - or stupid enough to continue wearing the same trews throughout the summer of 2007 and on their return journey to the UK in September 2007?

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Highly unlikely I venture to suggest.  The cuddlecat alert has also been questioned by me in the past, apart from cuddlecat's rise to fame being pole position of Kate McCann's 'must have' fashion accessory, I don't think the toy was Madeleine's comfort toy - if it had been it would be tattered, torn and very grubby!  Kate McCann washed it?  Nah - no loving mother would do that.

The specialist dog appeared to me to be playing with the toy, although I know many disagree with me.  Yet again individual observation.

The forensic evidence in this case has been metaphorically washed scrubbed and hung out to dry more times than cuddlecat.  I think it started it's life intact - in the custody of the PJ but then it was foolishly handed over to the British authorities who just can't resist the opportunity to meddle.

I believe there were 2 cuddle cats, One Kate holding is the secondary one.
I don't believe McCann's ever loved Maddie either. 
They loved their twins more than Maddie
whatever scent Kate had on her trousers is a transfer scent, might not be directly from handling Maddie's corpse.
McCann's knew they are untouchable so she just wore the same trousers, oh look if it really had my my daughter's scent on my trousers do you think I'd wear it?   
Both G & K had no parental bones in their body towards Maddie, maybe she was not the perfect, example child.

Bird131 wrote:crusader .. the visit of the McCanns to Sagres on 30 April 2007 was widely reported in the reliable British media. There is your 'concrete evidence' that they were a mere 7 kilometers away from the "End of the World", just days before Madeleine went 'missing'.

NO. They were never in Sagres that week.

As I've demonstrated elsewhere in my many analyses of the fake Nuno Lourenco story of his daughter 'nearly being kidnapped' on Sagres beach by Wojcek Krokowski, the entire Sagres story was generated by the McCann Team's publicist who, probably around Thursday 10 May, fed the media with the two elements of this story: (1) the 'nearly kidnapped claim' of Lourenco and (2) th4 cafe owner who was supposed to have seen the McCanns walking near Sagres. As far as I know that cafe owner has never been traced. If she has, I still say her story is bogus.

These stories appeared in the British media IIRC on Saturday 12 and Sunday 13 May. 

It is a great shame that this ridiculous thread hasn't been locked by now, to prevent further rubbish accumulating.