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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 13 Mm11

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The Coronavirus Debate

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Post by Verdi on 21.11.20 15:02

The infantilising of the population over Covid is both medieval and immoral

Terrifying people then locking them up has profound political and social implications

Janet Daley
21 November 2020 • 1:00pm



Even by the standards of weirdness that we have come to expect in this strange time, one event last week stood out.

At an official press briefing, Dr Susan Hopkins, medical director of the Test and Trace programme, warned that for every day of freedom the country was allowed over the Christmas holiday season, it must expect two days of further restrictive measures (effective lockdown).

This seemingly authoritative pronouncement was, oddly, contradicted within hours by Public Health England which said that Dr Hopkins had misspoken: it would not require a mere two days of restrictions to make up the ground for one day off – it would take five days. That would mean that a break from Christmas Eve to the following Bank Holiday Monday would necessitate a lockdown stretching to the end of January.

My first thought was, how could anyone, in these unprecedented circumstances, have such specific (if conflicting) figures to hand as predictions for how long the consequences of a Christmas break would last? What kind of computation could this possibly involve? Or did they just pluck numbers out of the air? It reminded me of the improbably precise figures presented by Project Fear, back in the day, on how much Brexit would cost every UK household.

Even more significant was the almost immediate contradiction of a government official by a government body. This may have been surprising and inept but there was something oddly commonplace in the tone of it. It was a refrain that might be familiar to many households: one parent tells a teenage child that if he plans to go out for yet another night with his friends, he will be grounded for a week. The other parent immediately tops this with the commandment that any more nights out will mean, not just being confined to the house, but being required to clean his room every day for two weeks.

There is a recognisable kind of power struggle going on. But the people who are out-doing each other’s strictures are not frazzled parents trying to deal with a recalcitrant child: they are arms of government, or advisors to whom governmental authority has apparently been delegated. And the children are all of us.

This was unmistakably not intended as a helpful warning: it was a threat from people who believed they had the power to carry it out.

I really wonder what is going on here. I think I understand perfectly well what the “warnings” (threats) from some other interested parties mean.

The teaching unions who, at various moments, demand school closures, and the GPs’ representatives who say they will need more money if they are to carry out vaccination programmes are just doing the usual public sector muscle-flexing. You can expect to hear a bloodcurdling chorus of this if a public sector pay freeze is announced next week.

But where is this latest thing coming from? In whose interest is it to compete for Most Alarming Prediction of the Week, especially when the public mood is being uplifted by a wave of unexpectedly good news about vaccines? Or is that it? Is this designed to be an antidote to optimism? Perhaps the competing advisors see themselves as waging a contest to be more socially responsible than each other?

If so, they may need some lessons in message management, because this does not come across as righteous and helpful to those who are currently living, to quote Thoreau, lives of quiet desperation. It looks, in fact, suspiciously unsavoury: like a mean-spirited, insensitive insistence on priorities which quite deliberately take no interest in the feelings and needs of most people, being conducted by officials who are accountable to no one, perhaps not even elected ministers.

Matt Hancock was said to have been taken completely by surprise by this latest scarefest delivered by “the science”, which tells us something we already knew about the government’s grip on its advisors. Presumably, they are now in an outright battle for dominance. So here we are again, awash in a sea of competitive pessimism just when the headlines every day announce the beginning of the end of this whole nightmare. (And please Boris, if you had any plans to call it the “end of the beginning” – don’t even think about it.)

The infantilising of the people which began with terrifying them and ended with locking them up, has enormous political implications which are a matter for general moral and social debate. They are not the province of scientific experts who have no more authority in these matters than any other informed citizen. Now – with these latest developments – we are getting right to the heart of it. The extraordinary good news about the vaccines, and the effect it is having on public morale, is not just about a likely practical solution to the pandemic. It is about restoring faith in the power of human ingenuity, in progress generated by reason and self-belief.

There has been something almost medieval about the fatalism of the past year: a sense of powerlessness and defeat at the hands of an inexplicable evil which had to be appeased by the sacrifice of freedom. This resignation was fuelled (perhaps not deliberately) by the inculcation of fear. Make no mistake, this enforced anxiety was resented at least as much as the actual restrictions on normal life – and may well, in the end, turn out to have done more lasting damage. (Worry over the safety of the miraculous new vaccines is almost certainly a manifestation of this neurotic obsession with avoiding risk.)

I’m not criticising the actual policies here – whose correctness will have to be judged by history – but the tone and mood which has surrounded them. This country has an estimable history of coping with danger in ways that have maintained popular support even through the most extraordinary privations and dangers. Now, a population that sang its way defiantly through the Blitz is told that it should continue to hide from its loved ones over Christmas or face being grounded for another month – or until the experts (now the only grown ups) say otherwise. This isn’t just a health crisis any more.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/21/infantilising-population-covid-medieval-immoral/

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Post by Verdi on 21.11.20 15:08

I wonder if there will come a day when we don't see or hear the word 'coronavirus' or the scientific brand name, 'COVID-19'.

lalala

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Post by JimbobJones on 21.11.20 16:31

This isn’t just a health crisis any more."


empathy





HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa! . . . . It never was! Half right I guess. It's better than not right at all. 
Is it  s  l  o  w  l  y  dawning on some "journalists" that all is not well in the world?
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Post by AnneBarnard on 21.11.20 18:44

One thing that's bugging me lately (and apologies if this is more suited to the political thread) -  is that, up here in Scotland we have the same dictatorship (in fact I would say Sturgeon is far more a dictator than Boris Johnson will ever be) but yet, all the comments and videos I've seen, e.g. the Talk Radio youtube videos posted here, etc, they all denounce the Conservatives and Boris Johnson's policies on the coronavirus (and rightly so), but they never mention that Sturgeon (and whatever-his-name-is-in-Wales) are also decreeing where we go and who we meet and how many people we can visit at Christmas, etc. etc.

Which is perhaps (although I couldn't be sure) leading to the odd perception that Sturgeon is "handling the crisis" better than Boris Johnson.  Because any public criticism never seems to be aimed at her, but only at the Johnson government.

And it is, quite frankly, pissing me off - because up here in Scotland we are being treated like children over this coronavirus, being told we MUST NOT leave our Tier 4 areas, etc, etc, and must not cross the border into England (which smacks of "Independence by decree" in my book), etc.

I wish the "alternative media" outcry against what is happening would include the whole of the UK, and not just England.

angry2

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Post by Jill Havern on 21.11.20 18:58

Alex Belfield does a live phone-in on Sunday and Wednesday evenings at 9pm...why don't you try to phone him and have a chat about it?

0115 888 21 69

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Post by Ron-scotland on 21.11.20 23:09

@AnneBarnard wrote:One thing that's bugging me lately (and apologies if this is more suited to the political thread) -  is that, up here in Scotland we have the same dictatorship (in fact I would say Sturgeon is far more a dictator than Boris Johnson will ever be) but yet, all the comments and videos I've seen, e.g. the Talk Radio youtube videos posted here, etc, they all denounce the Conservatives and Boris Johnson's policies on the coronavirus (and rightly so), but they never mention that Sturgeon (and whatever-his-name-is-in-Wales) are also decreeing where we go and who we meet and how many people we can visit at Christmas, etc. etc.

Which is perhaps (although I couldn't be sure) leading to the odd perception that Sturgeon is "handling the crisis" better than Boris Johnson.  Because any public criticism never seems to be aimed at her, but only at the Johnson government.

And it is, quite frankly, pissing me off - because up here in Scotland we are being treated like children over this coronavirus, being told we MUST NOT leave our Tier 4 areas, etc, etc, and must not cross the border into England (which smacks of "Independence by decree" in my book), etc.

I wish the "alternative media" outcry against what is happening would include the whole of the UK, and not just England.

angry2



For all my adult life I have supported independence for Scotland and, by default, the SNP. But at next year’s election I really don’t know what I’m going to do because I cannot in all good conscience bring myself to put my X against the SNP candidate, on the back of the nonsense we’ve had to put up with this year. 

Earlier in the year I decided I’d write to the First Minister to explain why I thought her entire approach to the epidemic was wrong but I quickly realised it was utterly pointless and I’d just end up on some police list of agitators, so I haven’t bothered. Every single day I feel like going outside and screaming at the top of my lungs that “I DO NOT CONSENT TO THIS!” but I know that, apart from alarming the neighbours, it wouldn’t achieve anything. I feel completely powerless against a government that is determined to remove our civil liberties. I believed in the SNP as the liberator of Scotland but they have turned into authoritarian tyrants of the worst kind. It’ is depressing and disheartening.
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Post by Verdi on 21.11.20 23:38

Ron_scotland wrote: It’ is depressing and disheartening.

It's politics!

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Post by Verdi on 22.11.20 0:51


Lockdown to end on December 2 but stricter tiers on the way


More areas to be placed in higher tiers than before lockdown in PM’s 'Covid winter plan', to be announced on Monday

The Coronavirus Debate - Page 13 Telemm39
[I wish someone would ^^^]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/11/21/lockdown-end-2-december-stricter-tiers-way/

....................

Geeeez, this saga makes Eastenders look good. Can't wait for the next episode - more of the same depressing gloom and doom with a backcloth of dingy brown to maintain the mood.

A winter plan? Is that much the same as the spring plan .. the summer plan .. the autumn plan? Will the winter plan lead to another spring plan and another summer plan and another ....

Naughty children - behave or you will be punished!

The daily rate of recorded infections is increasing beyond control - apparently. So clearly confinement, mask wearing and social distancing isn't working.

You don't need to be a genius to realise a deadly highly infectious disease will spread rapidly no matter what precautionary measure are taken. You can't flatten the curve or contain the spread or any other cliché to keep Mr Virus alive and kicking, he will do his worst whether you like it or not - if he existed in the first place of course.

Wake up world - the virus is not real, It's a calculated hoax designed to control world population.

Don't be a victim!


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Post by Verdi on 22.11.20 1:09

I saw a news report the other day, suggesting how home life will be after COVID-19

The picture was a 2.4 family lounging about their lounge bemasked and two broomsticks apart per person.

What utter rollox!  Apart from being unsociable, totally impractical and unworkable, it won't make the slightest bit of difference.  If an infectious disease is there it will spread no matter what precautions are or aren't made.

For crying out loud, stop treating people like a herd of imbeciles.  It might come as a surprise, we are quite capable of making our own assessment of situations, how to cope with situations and making our own decisions how to live.

Now bugger off and leave us alone!

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Post by BlueBag on 22.11.20 8:09

@Verdi wrote:The daily rate of recorded infections is increasing beyond control - apparently.  So clearly confinement, mask wearing and social distancing isn't working.
Or... there is something wrong with "the daily rate of recorded infections".

Actually it's a no-brainer.

Tests x fp = cases.

Where fp = false positive rate.

Direct correlation no matter what anyone does.
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Post by Verdi on 22.11.20 13:34

Coronavirus: ‘Normal’ life will resume by Easter

Boris Johnson will outline a road map tomorrow to bring back “normal life” by Easter next year. It will leave “most people” unable to mix with family and friends before then, except for a brief period at Christmas.

The prime minister will confirm an end to the national lockdown on December 2 but announce plans for three new tiers of local restrictions, which will all be tougher than those in place in October.

The tiers will be suspended for between three and five days over Christmas, to allow families to celebrate, but will then be reimposed between January and March.

Tens of millions of people will be told on Thursday that they are in tier 2 or tier 3, where they will be banned from mixing with other households indoors. As well as making the tiers tougher, more areas will be placed in the higher tiers to keep the virus under control. “Most people will be in tier 2 or tier 3,” a senior government source said. “The tiers get switched off over Christmas and then switched back on again.”

The length of the Christmas “armistice” is being thrashed out between Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister, and the devolved administrations running Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. “A lot of people will need to go from England to Scotland or to Wales, so the rules need to be the same,” one official said.

Read on: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-normal-life-will-resume-by-easter-3g9hnjb8c

I know how serious this is but ....spit coffee

The latest ripping yarn is the introduction of a road map to recovery, a means to switch tiers (should that be tears?) on and off and a Christmas armistice and a good old thrashing between his Premiership and his left foot man - you couldn't make it up could you?  

A typical day in the life of politics, yesterday's gone and tomorrow will never come. That's what makes it all so pointless.

Now I've got face-ache.  Think I'll creep out and poke someone with me broomstick.

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Post by AnneBarnard on 22.11.20 14:39

Nice to know that this "deadly virus" will stop attacking people for between three and five days over Christmas, isn't it.

rolleyes

Jeezus.



Do some people still believe this shit?

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Post by Jill Havern on 22.11.20 15:17


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Post by Jill Havern on 22.11.20 16:08


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Post by kaz on 22.11.20 17:36

“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI_pkvlp2q4”

Maybe we should all be a little more assertive.
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Post by JimbobJones on 22.11.20 17:46

Has anyone been stopped by the street corner staasi yet? You know, the so called  "covid marshalls". The wannabe policemen, without even enough IQ to realise it is not such a good idea to alienate your fellow members of public for monetary gain . . . . ?
Well, if you do get approached by one of these trainee anal warts, why not do the following.

As soon as they approach you and utter the immortal words "Excuse me, sir (sonny, or mate, depending on how superior they are feeling) can I have a little chat . . ."  YOU tell them the following word for word, this is very important, say this:
"If you want to speak to me you must answer a couple of my questions first, do you understand?"
The word "understand" is very important, if they do not say "yes" just ignore them as is your right and carry on your way. If they DO say "yes" to your question then they have voluntarily "stood under" YOUR authority, you can then issue THEM a written or verbal demand for payment, for an amount you feel adequate to cover your time and inconvenience.
Your second question should be to take their ID, followed by a question ensuring their body cam is switched on, so the judge can laugh at them when you take them to court for failure to make Whole, regarding the aforesaid verbal contractual agreement.
The least it will do is put the shit right up them, and you might even make a few bob in the process.
lol4
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Post by Verdi on 22.11.20 20:34

@AnneBarnard wrote:Nice to know that this "deadly virus" will stop attacking people for between three and five days over Christmas, isn't it.

rolleyes

Jeezus.

Do some people still believe this shit?

Aha yes, limited freedom for a few days but hell, you're going to pay the penalty in the following months. Those few days of familial bubbles will endanger lives - so say they!

No pass the parcel, no food and drink sharing, no snuggling together in front of the telly, no you know what, no boxing day sport, no walking out to burn excess calories.

I'm going down the pub - oh no I can't, it's closed for the duration innit.

Happy New Year!




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Post by Verdi on 22.11.20 21:07

More and more people are now speaking out about this travesty in main stream media as well as social media, yet still the government plods on with it's laughable daily, if not hourly, updates of what we, the people, are allowed and not allowed to do.  One word frequently bandied about .... banned!  

The government has no authority to ban people from doing anything, any more than they can tell us what we can or can't do.  They seriously need to take a step outside their microscopic land of make believe, take a look in and realise just how stupid these makeshift regulations are.

We are not legally bound to follow their orders - not even morally bound if truth be known.

I can't understand why some people still think 'the virus' is a reality - it's not, it's an elaborate hoax to control.  The new normality they so glibly talk of is indeed their plan for our futures, any form of normality will not happen - any resemblance of a decent life will be over if the people don't stand against it.

I can go along with change if it means improved living conditions but taking away every aspect of my freedom I cannot and will not tolerate.  There are no grounds nor legality for compliance - obedience.

The plandemic is devious, dangerous, life threatening and downright friggin' illegal.  They know full well they can't just take over the world so they've planned this fictitious 'virus' to create fear and hysteria and thus turn the populace into a mass of molten lava - in short, mindless slaves to their agenda.

There is no place in the 21st century for communism or any other form of dictatorship.  Is that what you want?  It's what they want you to think you want, tempting you with manna from heaven if you comply, an idyllic life on earth with no cares and every consumable available by simple request.  Sorry but life ain't like that and it never will be no matter how they try to make you think otherwise.  

The worm must turn before it's too late.

It's so devious, they can't force you to take the vaccination so they scare you into thinking you must - it's mind control of the worst imaginable.  Chinese torture doesn't compare to this monumental hoax.

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Post by Verdi on 22.11.20 23:53

Another voice of reason..

This isn't the end of lockdown. It's the next phase of a ruinous cycle of illogical restrictions


Now the Government has set itself on a course of suppressing the virus at the cost of all other concerns, there is no easy way out

Ross Clark
22 November 2020 • 3:38pm

If there is anyone still labouring under the delusion that lockdown mark two was going to be a short, sharp "circuit-breaker", and that we could then go back to something a little more like normality, they are going to be rudely awoken on Monday when the Prime Minister announces what will "replace" lockdown when the current rules expire on 2 December.

The answer, it seems, will be a rebadged lockdown. While it will be described as a return to tiers, those tiers will be made tougher and more of us will find ourselves shunted into the top tiers. The result is that most people will be forbidden from mixing with family and friends until Easter – save for a brief truce over Christmas.

It is exactly, in other words, as I predicted here on 26 October. A semi-free Christmas is being used as the thin, dangling carrot which is supposedly going to help us resign ourselves to many months of isolation.

We’ve seen plenty of modelling and dodgy graphs seeking to justify lockdown, but where is the remotest sign that the Government has properly considered the deleterious effects on the human spirit of being denied social contact for so long? All we seem to get in response to this issue is Matt Hancock popping up on the Today programme now and again to tell us: yes, I know it’s tough but we’ve got to protect vulnerable people.

Who does he think he is protecting with such a lengthy and extreme regime? Certainly not my wife’s nonagenarian friend, who has grown so lonely isolated in her care home room since the spring she keeps saying that she wants to "wake up dead".

For a brief moment a month ago, it looked as if Maureen from Barnsley – who memorably told a reporter on the street that she didn’t "give a sod" about Tier 3 restrictions and valued living over the simple preservation of life – might influence a change of thinking. But no, even as she spoke, government advisers were drawing up plans for a full lockdown, backed up by the infamous 4,000 deaths a day claim. Maureen has been well and truly stuffed back in her box.

If not Maureen, then maybe Rishi Sunak’s spending review, revealing the true fiscal horror precipitated by lockdown, might just reset the debate. The Chancellor, who has been warning about the economic consequences for months, is going to be a little harder to keep in his box.

The reality, as he will surely explain, is that while the Exchequer might just stretch to a few more emergency handouts for the NHS, the Alice in Wonderland fiscal polices of the past few months really are going to have to come to an end. Sadly, though, Sunak seems outnumbered in a cabinet which for the most part has internalised the arguments of its Left wing critics, that debt doesn’t matter. It is as if the country is being run by Viv Nicholson – the 1960s pools winner who announced she was going to "spend, spend, spend", before descending into bankruptcy, misery and drink.

The announcement of successful vaccine trials ought to be good news. The trouble is, though, that for now it has emboldened the Government’s drive to lock us down. Just a little longer now, goes the thinking, and we can all have a jab and then it will all be over. Yet already government scientists are telling us it might not be until next summer before we can all get inoculated. In the meantime the Government is pressing ahead with its madly expensive plan to test the entire population for Covid every week – in spite of warnings that the tests are not reliable enough and it could lead to hundreds of thousands of people a week being ordered to self-isolate for no reason thanks to false positives.

And if the vaccine doesn’t quite eliminate the disease? There is no strategy for that. Now the Government has set itself on a course of suppressing the virus at the cost of all other concerns, there is no easy way out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/22/isnt-end-lockdown-uk-remains-trapped-ruinous-cycle-illogical/


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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 13 Empty Re: The Coronavirus Debate

Post by Verdi on 23.11.20 0:17


Self-isolation to be scrapped for Covid case contacts, Government reveals


Under new plans, contacts of those who test positive infected will take daily tests for a week and not be made to stay home

By Laura Donnelly, Health Editor 22 November 2020 • 10:30pm

Self-isolation will no longer be required for contacts of positive Covid cases under plans announced by the Government on Monday.

Instead, contacts of those who test positive will be asked to undergo daily tests for seven days, and allowed to go about their business in the meantime.

Ministers will say that the current system – which was criticised by the Government’s own advisers as “massively ineffective and hated” – will be dismantled nationwide in January, if pilot schemes succeed.

As well as ending the self-isolation system, it could form part of an exit strategy from tiered restrictions. Poor adherence to the current system of isolation – requiring people to stay home for 14 days – is one of the key drivers of infection rates, which has pushed areas into higher tiers. Officials hope that people will be more likely to comply with quick tests that free them from restrictions, than to adhere to two-week quarantines.

The plan to end self-isolation is part of a wider mass testing strategy which could also see care home residents allowed to receive frequent visits from their loved ones.

Tests will be rolled out for visitors to care homes, allowing family members to hug and hold hands. If that pilot scheme in 20 homes is successful, from next month every care home resident in the country will be allowed to have up to two visitors who can be tested twice a week.



The Prime Minister will say the new system of repeat testing for contacts of positive cases, which will begin being piloted in Liverpool on Monday, would help the country to “get the virus back under control”.

Under the current system, those with a positive result are required to stay home for 10 days, while their “close contacts” must stay home for 14 days. There is no limit for the number of times people can be asked to self-isolate, meaning that individuals can be repeatedly told to spend two weeks in isolation.

There are also no exclusions for those who have already had the illness, including Boris Johnson, who is in currently self-isolation which is due to end this Thursday.

Boris Johnson is expected to detail the testing plans – part of “Operation Moonshot” – as he sets out a new tier system on Monday, and plans for the relaxation of restrictions over Christmas.



Areas that fall into the highest tiers will also be given early access to expanded testing to give them “a direct route out of the toughest restrictions”. Officials said the Liverpool pilot scheme, which has seen more than 200,000 people tested, has contributed to a substantial fall in Covid cases.

Warning that Britain is “not out of the woods yet” despite a flattening in new cases, the Prime Minister will say: “The virus is still present in communities across the country, and remains both far more infectious and far more deadly than seasonal flu.

“But with expansion in testing and vaccines edging closer to deployment, the regional tiered system will help get the virus back under control.”

Hope among horror: What now for care homes abandoned to Covid?

According to a National Audit Office report, 25,000 people were discharged to care homes without a coronavirus test between March 17 and April 15

Care homes have been on the frontline of the UK’s battle against the pandemic, with at least a third reporting coronavirus related fatalities to date.

The Health Secretary has insisted that the Government “threw a protective ring” around the social care sector, but by the end of May close to 13,500 people had died from Covid-19 in residences in England and Wales. In Hong Kong, that figure is zero.

Sarah Newey discovers the devastating impact on one. Read more here.

On Sunday, 18,662 infections and 398 deaths were recorded. However, the death figure was inflated by 141 cases which should have been added to Saturday’s figure of 341.

Health officials said: “Crucially, visitors will be able to have physical contact, such as a hug or holding hands, with their loved ones.”

Daily testing for those in close contact with positive Covid cases will rely on “lateral flow” tests, which give results in less than 30 minutes.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/22/self-isolation-scrapped-contacts-covid-cases-government-reveals/

....................

eek affraid

Reading this I seriously don't know whether to  laugh  or  cry3 .

I find it so hard to accept that adults assigned to govern what was once the greatest empire on earth, are only able to conduct themselves in a fashion akin to Jackanory.

It's truly pathetic.

Care homes?  Sorry but the residents are there for a reason - they are ill and need 24/7 care.  They are vulnerable, living on borrowed time, so why are the government and it's health officials using the sick as leverage to justify their irrational stringent illegal juvenile orders?

Enough of this tomfoolery.  Shut down the country, re-open the country and the farce will take-up where it left off, shut down the country, re-open the country and the farce will take-up where it left off - so on and so forth ad-infinitum.

A vaccine will not make any difference, they are playing games with our lives. This will never end unless we, the people, stop it by not succumbing to their dictate.

Listen to the critical thinkers - the knowledgeable, not some clown who clearly thinks it's jolly good larks to be obeying his own orders by himself-isolating!!!

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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 13 Empty Re: The Coronavirus Debate

Post by Verdi on 23.11.20 1:00

Boris Johnson to ease Covid lockdown with Christmas shopping spree

Johnson will set out new three-tier system as restrictions ease on retail, gyms, pubs and restaurants

Boris Johnson is to announce the return of Christmas shopping, gyms and outdoor sport across England as the government prepares to lift lockdown.

The prime minister will set out details today of a three-tier system of restrictions to come into force on December 3. He is expected to say that non-essential retail sales can resume across England, enabling people to do their Christmas shopping even if they live in high-infection areas.

Mr Johnson’s cabinet met last night to sign off the plans. In a victory for exercise enthusiasts, gyms are expected to reopen and outdoor sport will be allowed in all tiers.

The 10pm curfew on restaurants and pubs is likely to change to 11pm. Households will still be banned from mixing indoors in higher-infection areas, including hospitality venues and private homes.

Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister, is hoping to conclude talks this week with the devolved governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on allowing families to get together for a five-day period over Christmas.

The Cabinet Office said yesterday that restrictions on household mixing would be relaxed “for a small number of days” across the UK, allowing people to visit family in any part of the country. Sources suggested last night that up to three separate households would be allowed to meet, rather than four.

Mr Johnson is expected to tell MPs today: “The selflessness of people in following the rules is making a difference. The virus is not spreading nearly as quickly as it would if we were not washing our hands, maintaining social distance, wearing masks and so on.

“And in England, where nationwide measures came into effect at the start of this month, the increase in new cases is flattening off. But we are not out of the woods yet. The virus is still present in communities across the country, and remains both far more infectious and far more deadly than seasonal flu.”

Britain recorded another 18,662 coronavirus cases yesterday, down by 19 per cent in a fortnight; there were 398 deaths over a 24-hour period. The daily total includes 141 deaths omitted from Saturday’s government figures in error.

Despite the reopening of shops and gyms, restrictions in many areas are expected to be tougher than before the second lockdown in England. Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, said yesterday that the tiers would be tightened up.

The government is to forge ahead with its Operation Moonshot plan by enlisting the military to carry out mass-testing in regions under the toughest restrictions. Mr Johnson is expected to announce that a scheme piloted in Liverpool, where 30-minute tests have been made available to all, will be expanded to all Tier 3 alert areas. It is also understood that contacts of people who test positive will be offered a test each day for a week; they will need to isolate only if they are found to have the virus.

Many of the government’s scientific advisers believe that shopping is relatively low-risk if managed well, but that indoor socialising is far more dangerous.

Stephen Brett, a professor of critical care at Imperial College London who sits on the government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies SPI-M modelling subgroup, said that ministers had been briefed on how households could form bubbles for festive meals.

“One approach might be to say, OK well you declare who’s in your Christmas bubble, but you have to stick to it. What you can’t do is have a Christmas Day bubble and a Boxing Day bubble and a New Year’s Eve bubble,” he said.

Tiers before lockdown

Under the present three-tier system, introduced before the second lockdown, the following rules apply:

Tier 1
“Rule of six” if meeting indoors or outdoors. Pubs and restaurants shut at 10pm.

Tier 2
Household mixing banned indoors; “rule of six” applies outdoors. Pubs and restaurants shut at 10pm.

Tier 3
No household mixing indoors or in some outdoor spaces. Pubs and bars must serve food to be able to serve alcohol; those not serving food must shut.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/shops-to-reopen-on-december-2-as-pm-prepares-end-of-covid-lockdown-gqgfrgq6w

angry2

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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 13 Empty Re: The Coronavirus Debate

Post by Verdi on 23.11.20 1:07

Here we go here we go here we go ..

Fears rise over threat from coronavirus mutations


With global hopes pinned on vaccines to hammer the virus, a specialist group is tracking how it evolves and adapts.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fears-rise-over-threat-from-coronavirus-mutations-js7g9ssq3

....................

Oh and yet another novel humdinger - 'hammer the virus' !?!

The coronavirus has been with us since the dawn of mankind, estimated at 7 million years ago - yet somehow mankind has survived and developed throughout the centuries, without the need to vaccinate or shut down the world.

For crying out loud, get a grip.  This is a hoax!

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Post by BlueBag on 23.11.20 7:35

The Coronavirus Debate - Page 13 Quote-if-you-want-a-vision-of-the-future-imagine-a-boot-stamping-on-a-human-face-forever-george-orwell-22-12-10
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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 13 Empty Re: The Coronavirus Debate

Post by Jill Havern on 23.11.20 10:55

The Coronavirus Debate - Page 13 Ps10

https://twitter.com/NeilFindlay_MSP/status/1330577635282448390

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Post by Verdi on 23.11.20 12:16

If you weren't confused before, try reading this confused ..

What the new Covid tier system means for pubs, shops, and church services


A mixture of good and bad news, but the revamped restrictions will hit those in Tier 3 hardest

By Harry Yorke, Political Correspondent and Gordon Rayner, Political Editor 23 November 2020 • 11:25am

Church and other religious services will resume across England next month under a revamped tiers system, as Boris Johnson seeks to salvage the festivities leading up to Christmas.

The Prime Minister will confirm a return to the regional system from December 2, which will see restrictions on pubs and restaurants tightened while they are relaxed in other areas including grassroots sport.

Christmas shopping will also be given the go-ahead with non-essential retail reopening in all three tiers to ensure people are able to buy presents for loved ones.

However, restrictions on household mixing are expected to continue until the end of the month, when Mr Johnson is expected to introduce a five-day window for families and friends to socialise in bubbles of three households.

Church services

The Prime Minister will today confirm that church services including Christingles and midnight mass will be able to take place in all three tiers.

However, Christmas carols and hymns will remain on hold for now, with the Government expected to reach a final decision in the coming days as to whether they are safe to go ahead.

The number of people permitted to attend church together is also set to be determined by the level of restrictions on household mixing in areas.

In tier one areas, groups attending religious services are therefore expected to follow the rule of six - with larger families exempt - while in tier two and tier three areas, they are likely to be asked to remain confined to their own household bubbles.

The relaxation applies to all places of worship, including temples, mosques and synagogues.

It comes after the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Rev. Justin Welby, faced a backlash during the first lockdown for banning priests from entering their churches, prompting him to later row back on the instruction.

The Archbishop has taken a tougher stance during the second lockdown, but has faced renewed criticism after The Telegraph revealed he intends to take a three-month sabbatical next year for “spiritual renewal.”

Confirming the resumption of church services last night, a senior Government source said: “We know important places of worship are for communities across the country.

“We recognise that measures have been put in place to reduce the risk for those who wish to come together for communal worship. We know it has been a challenging year for everyone and places of worship are a huge source of comfort for many, that is why we have listened and they will remain open across all tiers.”

Hospitality

Pubs and restaurants in tier three areas will be limited to takeaway and delivery services only from next month as part of a tightening of regional restrictions.

Under the previous system, pubs and restaurants which served substantial meals were permitted to stay open in “very high alert” level areas. However, the changes will mean that customers will be banned from dining in all together.

Meanwhile, venues in tier two areas will now be required to serve meals if they wish to stay open, meaning traditional ‘wet’ pubs will be required to shut.

Last night Kate Nicholls, the chief executive of UK Hospitality, warned the additional measures were “absolutely catastrophic” for the industry and would “undermine the long-term viability of the sector as a whole going forward.”

Pub curfew

Diners and pub-goers will be given more time to finish their meals and drinks under the new system.

Venues in tiers one and two are expected to have to abide by a new closing time of 11pm, with last orders called at 10pm. The change will mean that people are able to exit venues over a longer period of time.

It comes after Government sources and scientists expressed alarm that the previous rule may have inadvertently increased the chances of transmission, as people flooded out onto the streets and public transport at closing time.

However, Michael Kill, chief executive of the Night Time Industries Association, warned it would only lead to “mass ordering” prior to service ending, adding that it risked recreating the traditional “happy hour” that has since been ditched.

Speaking to Sky’s Sophy Ridge programme on Sunday, Prof Calum Semple, a member of the Scientific Advisory Group on Emergencies (Sage), said of the curfew: “History has got a lot to teach us, in the years of prohibition they tried to change the hours, they tried to say you could only drink if you had a meal, and everyone is very inventive and finds ways around it.

“Fiddling at the edges of something like drinking-up times or pubs' closing times is simply not an effective mechanism."

Sport and other leisure activities

Outdoor sports such as golf and tennis are expected to restart in all tiers, as are amateur team sports such as Sunday-league football.

Following the launch of the Telegraph’s Keep Kids Active campaign, Government sources confirmed that children’s sports would also resume from December.

One told this newspaper that ministers had been “deeply uncomfortable” with the decision to stop children’s sport during the second lockdown, with scientists and public health experts warning of a mental and physical health timebomb.

Gyms are expected to reopen in all three tiers, following a series of rows between ministers and regional northern mayors when the system was originally implemented.

While Liverpool originally agreed to close gyms in the city, the decision to keep them open in other tier three areas quickly led to them being reopened.

Cinemas are set to reopen in tiers one and two, although insiders said that they would have to remain shut in tier three. Theatres are also unlikely to reopen for the Christmas Panto season.

Non-essential retail

Christmas shopping will be given the greenlight this year as the Government attempts to give hard-up highstreets across the country a major boost.

Non-essential retail, including fashion, toys and gadget stores will reopen their doors when the second lockdown ends on December 2.

It follows concern that many people, including elderly people who are unfamiliar with online shopping, could struggle to purchase presents for friends and family.

Socialising

Restrictions on household mixing are expected to stay largely the same. Under the original tiered system, people living in tier one areas were required to comply with the rule of six both indoors and outdoors.

However, Government sources suggested last week that tier one could be brought closer in line with tiers two and three due to concerns among scientists that measures in the lowest level are proving ineffective.

In tier two areas, the ban on household mixing indoors is expected to continue, although it is unclear whether the rule of six will still apply outdoors.

The same applies for tier three, where people were permitted to meet in groups of six in public outdoor spaces such as beaches or parks, but not in private gardens.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/11/22/will-revamped-tiered-system-look-like/


laugh cry3 laugh

Well that's cleared-up at least some of the minor detail! I look forward to a government officially published Code of Practice as a source of reference - will it be available for purchase on Amazon I wonder?

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