Latest News

[uppatoffee]

Josh Halliday ‏[ltr]@JoshHalliday[/ltr]  1m
Two officers have prized open a manhole in Madeleine McCann search area

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Josh Halliday ‏@JoshHalliday
  1m
Officers now lowering a black rod, presumably containing fibre optic cameras, into the sewer #madeleine

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Josh Halliday ‏

[ltr]@JoshHalliday[/ltr]

  1m
Officer in British police uniform on hands and knees inspecting the prized-open shaft and making notes

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

 If they find a body but also find a prior resting place, it rules out a stranger I would think.
 If they find a prior resting place and clues. but don't find a final resting place, I imagine the same.

Also, if something is found at this site then surely SY must have had a solid reason to focus on the area. That reason could also point the finger somewhere.

For example, when Kate told the PJ of her dream of Madeleine being buried on a hillside, if the PJ had found a body there they would not have just said 'lucky for us you had that dream Kate!'.

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Josh Halliday ‏[ltr]@JoshHalliday[/ltr]  1m
This manhole is about 20ft from where officers used ground penetrating radar yesterday #madeleine

[Tony Bennett]

Pyjmass could have had a top and bottoms on underneath. You see outerwear, that does not mean no clothes underneath.  Sedation could have ensured a non-waking child.

Absolutely fascinating, building on HelenMeg's speculation with two more 'could have's - piling speculation upon speculation upon speculation.

So let me amend the suggested dialogue I just gave to 1soapy (and yes I am going to call his idea 'ridiculous'):

 
"Look, you go out as a decoy, stick your three-year-old in pjyamas like Madeleine's, look, I know it's a bit cold, so look, put on some warm clothes underneath the pyjamas to keep her warm. This is going to work - trust me! - but, I know, what if she wakes up? Simple, just give her some more sedation than uusal, that should ensure she is a non-waking child. What to do after you've reached the beach? Er, don't worry, I'l think of something, I'll send you a text".

[russiandoll]

my last on this as it is off topic

  you propose a theory that involves one of the Tapas 7 parents volunteering for their young blonde daughter to be carried around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold night dressed only in pyjamas. 


 Tony, we believe that some if not all tapas told lies for the parents... why would this favour be such a big deal?

 No more from me to you on this issue even on another thread when you insult fellow members, once again being belittled for  their "ridiculous "  theories.. some of whom possibly think that your whitewash theory is ridiculous , but are too courteous and respectful to members here to say so.

[Guest]

Portuguese newspapers reported on Thursday that this site was a disused storage box where children used to play. The shaft, measuring around 5ft by 3ft (150cm by 90cm), was covered by mounds of earth and a corrugated iron sheet, which is thought to have concealed the hole for years.

Now, who would have known about that?

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

LATEST NEWS

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 3m
This manhole is about 20ft from where officers used ground penetrating radar yesterday #madeleine

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 4m
Officer in British police uniform on hands and knees inspecting the prized-open shaft and making notes

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 5m
Officers now lowering a black rod, presumably containing fibre optic cameras, into the sewer #madeleine

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 6m
Two officers have prized open a manhole in Madeleine McCann search area

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 59m
This is separate to two key sites where Madeleine McCann police have been focusing work in past four days

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 1h
DCI Redwood just visited a third site where five officers are clearing undergrowth using pickaxe, shovels and rakes

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 2h
DCI Andy Redwood, the officer leading the Madeleine McCann search, has arrived. Said "bom dia" to local cops but no word to media :-(

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 2h
Madeleine McCann search: two police sniffer dogs who searched for April Jones returned this morn to Praia da Luz scrubland

[Cristobell]

I agree. I think Smithman was Gerry and I think its far more likely he was carrying his daughter than anyone else
I don't subscribe to the decoy too convoluted and I think GM would be more than capable of switching into detached mode

I cannot think of a single logical reason for Gerry to have rushed through the streets carrying a child, except that he is a risktaker extraordinaire.  Imo, the chances of a man who looked exactly like Gerry, carrying a child who looked exactly like Madeleine at the exact moment it is claimed she disappeared are beyond reason.  I think it was Gerry in a panic, rushing to meet someone and the phone calls made in that area on 3rd May must have been of great interest to the police. 


The 'wanting so much to help' Jane Tanner obliged them with the decoy. 

[Tony Bennett]

As realistic as your conspiracy theory involving millions of pounds and from the very top of the powers that be, without a rational reason for what and why.

I've given my rational reasons many times over - in 21 words:

Rupert Murdoch
Rebekah Brooks
Clarence Mitchell
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown

Something nasty close to government and media elites being covered up

[j.rob]

Maybe Smithman is Gerry with another child, not as a decoy as such but rather as a shield or distraction in the event of him being seen, as he does a final check on the burial place he had sourced earlier in the day .

I thought that HelenMeg's 'decoy' theory about Smithman was about as convoluted as you could get, but evidently I was wrong, you have come up with something even more unlikely.

Like HelenMeg, though, you propose a theory that involves one of the Tapas 7 parents volunteering for their young blonde daughter to be carried around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold night dressed only in pyjamas. 

These two theories (yours and HelenMeg's) are theories without a shred of evidence, whereas at least my suggestion that Smithman was fabricated (whether or not you agree) does have a considerable amount of circumstantial evidence to support it.

I always thought the decoy theory was a bit crazy. What I find strange about the Smith sighting is that they did not immediately report it to police, as far as I can see. The police statements appear to be on 26th May. Nevertheless, it is clear that, from the moment they knew that Madeleine had disappeared, at least some members of the family made a connection between the child being carried that evening and Madeleine's disappearance. And they are certain that the child COULD have been Madeleine.

So why the delay in reporting this sighting to police?

And when they contacted police in September, stating that they thought the man carrying the child was Gerry McCann (after seeing him coming down the steps of the plane carrying his son in a similar manner). Why did they wait that long if there was even a hint of an idea that the man could have been Gerry?  

Was it possibly to help get Murat off the hook? Given that the Smiths clearly know him and Mr Smith stated with conviction that he was sure the man was not Murat?

If the Smith sighting is fabricated (and there were a lot of people in the group that night so that's a lot of people who have to make it up - or maybe they DID see someone carrying a child but it wasn't Madeleine or Gerry?!) then what was the reason for the fabrication? 

As realistic as your conspiracy theory involving millions of pounds and from the very top of the powers that be, without a rational reason for what and why.



I think it is beyond dispute that there has been a massive cover-up. The very high level support and so on. Plus an obliging media. And it has cost millions of pounds.

Talking of people wandering around that resort that evening at crucial times, I am still interested in Jez Wilkins and his pram. What was he doing in the toilets near the Tapas bar where he supposedly saw Rasta-man (not even mentioned in Kate's book).

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Jon Kay ‏@jonkay01
  7m
McCann Search: Officers have started opening-up manhole covers and are searching drains with probe devices. pic.twitter.com/V2CFySKqtH
Details


Jon Kay ‏@jonkay01
  1h
Day 4 in Madeleine McCann search. Officers return to investigate an area analysed with underground radar yesterday. pic.twitter.com/2b5PVtdY3z
Details

[Tony Bennett]

I agree. I think Smithman was Gerry

One person who shares your strong belief that there really was a 'Smithman' is of course D.C.I. Andy Redwood.

Indeed, he and the BBC spent a couple of million pounds (about £1 million each) to tell us just that - in a programme seen by 6.7 million people. He told the nation: Don't look for an abductor at 9.15pm, I've found that bloke. Look instead for someone seen by the Smiths who probably removed Madeleine from the apartment much nearer 10.00pm.

Without a shadow of a doubt, in promoting the 'Smithman' sighting so strongly (the McCanns having promoted him to a lesser extent already for the previous three years), Redwood does not for one nanosecond share the belief of many on here that Smithman was Gerry McCann. He thinks Smithman was the abductor.

(if, that is, he really believes in Smithman at all himself)

[Cheshire Cat]

my last on this as it is off topic

  you propose a theory that involves one of the Tapas 7 parents volunteering for their young blonde daughter to be carried around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold night dressed only in pyjamas. 


 Tony, we believe that some if not all tapas told lies for the parents... why would this favour be such a big deal?

 No more from me to you on this issue even on another thread when you insult fellow members, once again being belittled for  their "ridiculous "  theories.. some of whom possibly think that your whitewash theory is ridiculous , but are too courteous and respectful to members here to say so.

Subscribers to the 'Whitewash' theory also include Pat Brown and Goncalo Amaral!

[ShuBob]

When did Amaral subscribe to the whitewash theory? Has he spoken since the ground search in PdL started?

PS: I've never really subscribed to anything PB has said though I respect her opinion.

[Tony Bennett]

I always thought the decoy theory was a bit crazy. What I find strange about the Smith sighting is that they did not immediately report it to police, as far as I can see. The police statements appear to be on 26th May.

That's correct. IF they saw anyone at all, day after day, while Madeleine was at the top of news bulletins in Portugal, Ireland throughout that 13-day period, why did they all remain silent? Martin Smith himself was in Praia da Luz on 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 May and on each day (so it is claimed) he must have had a valid reason for not disclosing his sighting to the police. I can't think of one

Nevertheless, it is clear that, from the moment they knew that Madeleine had disappeared, at least some members of the family made a connection between the child being carried that evening and Madeleine's disappearance.

Actually, j.rob, that is NOT clear. It appears that their recollections were triggered by Peter Smith (allegedly) ringing up his father, Martin, on 16 May (13 days later) and saying: "Dad, do you remember seeing a man carrying a child in Praia da Luz before we left?"

And they are certain that the child COULD have been Madeleine. So why the delay in reporting this sighting to police?

One of several leading lines of circumstantial evidence that lead one to doubt whether their tale is true.

And when they contacted police in September, stating that they thought the man carrying the child was Gerry McCann (after seeing him coming down the steps of the plane carrying his son in a similar manner). Why did they wait that long if there was even a hint of an idea that the man could have been Gerry?  

Another good question.

Was it possibly to help get Murat off the hook? Given that (1) the Smiths clearly know him and (2) Mr Smith stated with conviction that he was sure the man was not Murat?

These two very factual matters that you have raised clearly give rise to that suggestion.

If the Smith sighting is fabricated (and there were a lot of people in the group that night so that's a lot of people who have to make it up - or maybe they DID see someone carrying a child but it wasn't Madeleine or Gerry?!) then what was the reason for the fabrication? 

The main inference to be drawn from their actions and inactions is that they were motivated to do what they did by their friendship with Murat. In addition, given that their description of Smithman matched that of Tanner's description Tannerman in no fewer than EIGHTEEN separate respects, we may also deduce that Murat - or someone else - gave him Tanner's description

I think it is beyond dispute that there has been a massive cover-up. The very high level support and so on. Plus an obliging media. And it has cost millions of pounds.

High level suppport, obliging media - Yes and Yyes.

Talking of people wandering around that resort that evening at crucial times, I am still interested in Jez Wilkins and his pram. What was he doing in the toilets near the Tapas bar where he supposedly saw Rasta-man (not even mentioned in Kate's book).

He said he needed a pee. He must have forgotten to have one before going out to gently wheel his 8-month-old baby to sleep in the buggy. Maybe his partner Bridget O'Donnell didn't fancy holding the baby, calmly walking him up and down, and speaking soothingly to him to get him to sleep.

[Cristobell]

Maybe Smithman is Gerry with another child, not as a decoy as such but rather as a shield or distraction in the event of him being seen, as he does a final check on the burial place he had sourced earlier in the day .

I thought that HelenMeg's 'decoy' theory about Smithman was about as convoluted as you could get, but evidently I was wrong, you have come up with something even more unlikely.

Like HelenMeg, though, you propose a theory that involves one of the Tapas 7 parents volunteering for their young blonde daughter to be carried around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold night dressed only in pyjamas. 

These two theories (yours and HelenMeg's) are theories without a shred of evidence, whereas at least my suggestion that Smithman was fabricated (whether or not you agree) does have a considerable amount of circumstantial evidence to support it.

Thank for your kind response.
The decoy idea seems absurd to me too.
The Smith sighting seems plausible .
Surely GM didn,t carry his dead daughter.
Just trying to marry all the posibilities together.
Truth is a rare visitor to TM hopefully justice will visit them.

'Surely GM didn't carry his dead daughter.'

I don't think you've thought this through. If (quite a big if, but not that huge) Smithman was GM, then of course he was carrying his dead daughter. He had a problem to solve, and, it seems, he solved it rather cleverly. Though perhaps fate is catching up with him now.

I agree, Gerry had to remove the body pdq, perhaps their plans were going awry?  I also have serious doubts about the timeline - that is the exact time the alarm was raised by Kate. The McCanns and tapas group all say 10.00pm, but some of the locals say it was earlier.  The sighting by the Smith family is fixed by their bar bill, 9.50 I believe, therefore they were cutting it very fine.  We must remember however, that they were all in a state of high anxiety, and as doctors 'overthinking' every possible scenario, especially if everything has gone wrong with Plan A.  They probably spent so long planning what they were going to do, that they did not notice the clock ticking away and were left with Plan Z, a mad dash towards the beach.  

The urgent need of the parents and the tapas mob to physically write down their alibis on the torn off cover of one of Madeleine's books in the aftermath, suggests panic.  I don't think they were trying to get the timeline straight for the police, so much as for themselves. Everyone knows, if you write something down, you are more likely to remember it.  This lot were sat round the table preparing for an exam the next day.

[Tangled Web]

Seeing as Smithman is still being discussed here, I have two questions if that's ok.

1) If 'Smithman' was Gerry carrying a 'decoy' child, surely somebody saw him returning with that child so where are the witness statements supporting this?

2) If 'Smithman' was Gerry carrying Madeleine, surely somebody would still have seen him on his return, even if empty handed. So where are these witness statements?

Witnesses will have been asked what/who they saw around 10 p.m in the vicinity.

Thanks.

Tangled Web.

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

LATEST NEWS

Joana Morais ‏@xklamation 54s
Diário de Noticias @dntwit reports that some inorganic material was found, it might be clothes or any other object. #McCann

[Research_Reader]

Was it possibly to help get Murat off the hook? Given that (1) the Smiths clearly know him and (2) Mr Smith stated with conviction that he was sure the man was not Murat?

These two very factual matters that you have raised clearly give rise to that suggestion.

How do we know that the Smiths know Robert Murat?

[Tony Bennett]

When did Amaral subscribe to the whitewash theory?

Er, Shubob, the whitewash theory, namely that the British government, the British police, the Foreign Office, the security services and MI5 were all collaborating to frustrate his investigation, and cover up something, was a thread running right through his first book on the case.

Should there have been any doubt about that, just to clinch it for once and for all, he then wrote a second book 'The English Gag'.

I am sure he has very very good legal reasons now for not speaking out too much about the current antics of Operation Grange - though I think he did appear on a Portuguese TV programme not long ago and I don't recall him endorsing Redwood's investigation then, do you?

[Naz_Nomad]

AHHH!!! I am cursing like a sailor. I had a look at the Mail and was surprised how far down the Search story was BUT then I looked at the comments which I usually ignore. TM must have brought in reinforcements to lament over the poor parents and the nasty Portuguese.
It is so upsetting.

I've found quite the opposite on Yahoo News. Usually, their are a half dozen "Pro McCann" , but in the last couple of days, almost all gone.

Re:- Daily Mail comments. I am absolutely appalled at many DM posters lack of basic knowledge of this case. I've seen posters slagging off the "Spanish Police" who hindered the search for "Mandy", for example. I'm sure others have seen stuff just as bad.

[Guest]

I have asked many times, please discuss Smithman on relevant threads. This is to discuss the dig and findings

[RIPM]

The way in which the body is laid to rest also gives clues as to who buried the child.  A parent for example, despite the heinous thing they are about to do, will ensure the body is wrapped and perhaps even given a treasured possession.  A stranger wouldn't bother with any niceities, in fact in most cases, they wouldn't bother to dig a grave, they would discard the body at the earliest opportunity.

"A Parent will ensure the body is wrapped"

I'm sorry but this is total nonsense.

If you seriously believe what you have written, check out the case of Fred West, a notorious British murderer and what he did to his own daughter, Heather.  Cutting her into chunks and putting her under his own patio, to name but one case of which sadly, there are many where parents have disposed of their children as rubbish.

 Your thoughts that a parent would show respect, is commendable but lacks reality and closed minds will never look objectively.

People do the most depraved things and that includes parents