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by **Tony Bennett** 03.01.10 15:54

littlepixie wrote:I haven't read Martin Grime saying the dog alerts are unreliable from an intelligence point of view.

I just noticed this ad at the top of the thread:

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I wiondered if it was relevant to this thread?

by exempt 03.01.10 16:17

Tony Bennett wrote:Conclusion therefore: There was no blood on Cuddle Cat but Cuddle Cat had been in contact with a corpse that had been dead for at least 90 minutes.

No need to be facetious.

by Guest 03.01.10 16:18

Still you do not apologise Toony for misleading people for wrongly saying others had mentioned the Photographers name.
Yet you wanted others banned from doing the same.

by Stephanie 03.01.10 17:50

Tony Bennett wrote:
Stephanie wrote:I apologise Mr. B I was incorrect I take back my message to you , you DID not write that and I apologise , hopefully you can take my apology and excuse my mistake.
Not a problem at all stephanie, a simple mistake [we all make mistakes], a clear and nice apology [not needed but welcome], water under the bridge.

Glad you agreed with me that 'Raffle' was talking 'tosh' though

After having other posters point out your acceptance of my apology this evening I thankyou for understanding it.

I made a mistake after refreshing the page and accused you of something you had not done.

I thankyou for being so gracious and I didn't fail to notice the last comment, humour goes a long way at times.

Edited to add : yes it was needed,If you had accused me of writing something I had not I would be extremely annoyed if You had not apologised.

by Guest 03.01.10 19:32

Shame he cannot do the same when he is wrong. Sorry seems to be the hardest word.

by Slartibartfast 04.01.10 4:15

littlepixie wrote:I haven't read Martin Grime saying the dog alerts are unreliable from an intelligence point of view.

This what I said.

In this case there was no corroboration which according to Grime makes the alerts unreliable from an evidential and intelligence point of view.

This is what Grime said with respect to Eddie's alert

No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

As previously stated there was no corroboration for the cadaver dog alerts so that makes the alert unreliable from an evidential and intelligence point of view.

by preciousramotswe 04.01.10 12:17

Tony Bennett wrote:
jkh wrote:
miller wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:Conclusion therefore: There was no blood on Cuddle Cat but a corpse had been in contact with Cuddle Cat for at least 90 minutes.

I've read many times it may take about 90 minutes for a corpse to initially produce the cadaverine scent but don't think its been stated an item has to be in contact with a corpse for 90 minutes for the scent to be transfered once the scent is is existence. Apologies to mr. Bennett if wrong although I've just read another report by a dog handler which states the contact time can be far less than 90 minutes for a transfer of the scent.

I would agree with that - I also don't think it takes 90 minutes for something to transfer to something...otherwise if the dogs are to be believed and Maddie was behind the sofa, in the wardrobe, flowerbed, verandah etc then she would have to have been in all those places for 90 minutes each wouldn't she?

Unless Maddie was holding cuddlecat when/if she died then I guess it would take 90 minutes for cuddlecat to be contaminated.
I put it incorrectly, let me rephrase it:

Conclusion therefore: There was no blood on Cuddle Cat but Cuddle Cat had been in contact with a corpse that had been dead for at least 90 minutes.

Having viewed the video of the supposed 'alert' to Cuddlecat several times it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that some elements of the PJ and the prosecutors were unhappy with it and asked Grimes what the hell it all meant.
I have never before seen a dog 'alert' to something after previously having walked over it, played with, and chucked it in the air.

If you want to latch on to any of the alerts, I humbly suggest that it isn't the Cuddlecat one because it's obviously an extremely contentious bit of tape.

I would never even sieze a man's Jaguar on such flimsy grounds, let alone accuse him of murder.

by Guest 04.01.10 14:10

Tony Bennett wrote:I put it incorrectly, let me rephrase it:

Conclusion therefore: There was no blood on Cuddle Cat but Cuddle Cat had been in contact with a corpse that had been dead for at least 90 minutes.

That's your (wrong) conclusion, it sure wasn't the PJ's or AG's conclusion.
I'm sure a certain lawyers firm will be delighted to read it..

by Guest 06.01.10 10:52

Autumn wrote:

Oh come on, of course the McCanns knew that by allowing so many people into the apartment, they were contaminating the 'crime scene'.

The McCanns are doctors not Police Forensic Scientist. The Police are the oness who should shut down a crime scene

by Guest 06.01.10 18:51

Tony seems to have forgotten this thread since he has been shown to be wrong.

by Guest 06.01.10 18:57

rockyrobin wrote:
Autumn wrote:

Oh come on, of course the McCanns knew that by allowing so many people into the apartment, they were contaminating the 'crime scene'.

The McCanns are doctors not Police Forensic Scientist. The Police are the oness who should shut down a crime scene

The police can't shut down a crime scene, if they're not there can they? Gerry admitted in I think it was the Panorama programme that 12 people had been in. People were in and out of that apartment before the police were called. They did shut it down that evening and G & K had to move out of the apartment. There is a statement from the forensic officer on the mccannfiles.

by preciousramotswe 06.01.10 19:22

The PJ shut it down some time after their arrival, which was of course quite a while after the GNR.
But I would direct you to the thread where we were discussing Tanner and her Rogatory account of when PJ were told about her sighting.

At that point, everyone except Kate and another female were in the McCanns apartment, because that's where she told the police officer about what she had seen.
They had also all sat there writing out their 'timeline' of checks, with a PJ officer present.

Not so damn quick off the mark at clearing everyone out, were they hun? In fact they sat in there themselves.

by Guest 06.01.10 19:28

badmanners wrote:The PJ shut it down some time after their arrival, which was of course quite a while after the GNR.
But I would direct you to the thread where we were discussing Tanner and her Rogatory account of when PJ were told about her sighting.

At that point, everyone except Kate and another female were in the McCanns apartment, because that's where she told the police officer about what she had seen.
They had also all sat there writing out their 'timeline' of checks, with a PJ officer present.

Not so damn quick off the mark at clearing everyone out, were they hun? In fact they sat in there themselves.

Bit like locking the stable door after the horse had bolted eh? hun? Bit late after they had traipsed everywhere, and touched everything. And the reason they probably kept them all together was to take dna swabs to eliminate their dna.

by aliberte2 07.01.10 1:55

If You were In a Large Group Though and A Child Went Missing, Isn't that Logical Behavior? It Wouldn't have Destroyed Any Evidence except Fingerprints - Would Have Made it More Difficult, Surely, But the Fact is that the PJ Still Should Have and Could Have Done an Initial Forensic Investigation - And Didn't.

by Guest 07.01.10 19:18

candyfloss wrote:"And the reason they probably kept them all together was to take dna swabs to eliminate their dna."

No. Those swabs were taken days later.

candyfloss wrote:"they had traipsed everywhere, and touched everything"

Who's actually entered the children's bedroom, can you give us their names?

by preciousramotswe 07.01.10 20:40

candyfloss wrote:
badmanners wrote:The PJ shut it down some time after their arrival, which was of course quite a while after the GNR.
But I would direct you to the thread where we were discussing Tanner and her Rogatory account of when PJ were told about her sighting.

At that point, everyone except Kate and another female were in the McCanns apartment, because that's where she told the police officer about what she had seen.
They had also all sat there writing out their 'timeline' of checks, with a PJ officer present.

Not so damn quick off the mark at clearing everyone out, were they hun? In fact they sat in there themselves.

Bit like locking the stable door after the horse had bolted eh? hun? Bit late after they had traipsed everywhere, and touched everything. And the reason they probably kept them all together was to take dna swabs to eliminate their dna.

That's a rather poor reply if I may say so.

If you arrive at a scene you fear may have been contaminated, what do you do?
Clear them all out, seal the place off, and call in forensics?

Or sit down with them all, call up another few people so you can take their statements, and generally faff about until a senior officer tells you to pull your bloody socks up?

What is so hard about admitting that these cops didn't have a clear idea what to do with the scene?
Especially when it is the ONE thing that Amaral admits the PJ did wrong!!

by **Tony Bennett** 07.01.10 20:46

Molly wrote:Who's actually entered the children's bedroom, can you give us their names?

YES.

Who entered Apartment 5A on 3rd May and when?

I think if we take it there were three GNR officers who entered the apartment, then we have at least 18 people in the apartment so far.

I would like to suggest that we clarify when two other events that evening took place:

1. The scream, heard I think before 10.00pm, by at least one witness

2. The removal of the twins from Apartment 5A. When did this occur?

Then this is the likely sequence of events:

1. Kate McCann goes to Apartment 5A, some time before 10.00pm.

2. We know from one witness that Kate McCann is seen talking to another female on the balcony some time before 10.00pm. This is most likely to be Jane Tanner.

I suggest the scream takes place immediately before Kate McCann walks or rushes down to the Tapas bar.

Kate McCann then goes to the Tapas bar leaving Jane Tanner minding the twins.

So we have this possible sequence of people entering Apartment 5A:

1. Jane Tanner. At the apartment when the scream occurs and as Kate McCann raises the alarm. She moves out of 5A as Gerry and Kate return to the apartment.

2 & 3. Kate and Gerry McCann arrive first. They were there with ‘a female friend’ [I suggest Fiona Payne] when Amy Tierney arrived. Gerry McCann closed the shutters.

4 & 5. David and Fiona Payne. David Payne “didn’t actually enter too much into the room but I walked to the edge and you know there was, you know the twins were in their cots”- but Fiona says: “I think he was just mainly in the living room trying to put together what they should all be doing really, he was talking more to Gerry”. Fiona was there ‘with Kate and Gerry’ but ‘not immediately’. Fiona after entering the apartment was then with Kate in or near the apartment almost continuously for hours, until eventually they moved up to 5H.

6 & 7. Matthew Oldfield and Rachael Mampilly. Matthew Oldfield appears not to have gone sirect to the apartment in the first few minutes. Oldfield says: “If you ask me…I’m almost a hundred percent sure we didn’t go to the apartment” but later said: “I think we, at one stage, on one of the return visits, I did go into the apartment, just as far perhaps as the, erm, as the kitchen, and I could see them sat on the sofa, but they were in with the Police…that’s the only time I went back into the apartment”. Rachael Mampilly didn’t see the twins. Presumably they had been moved by the time she got there.

8. Dianne Webster. She stayed behind at the table for a few minutes and arrived some minutes later. She found Kate ‘in a state of shock’. Webster opened and closed shutters.

9. Russell O’Brien didn’t enter the apartment straightaway but immediately started searching. He went to the apartment later after the PJ arrived, there were PJ and GNR officers there when he arrived and others. Russell O’Brien wrote out the two timelines.

10. Amy Tierney was there. She saw the open shutters and windows, looked in the bedroom and the wardrobe (though Kate said she closed the window before dashing back to the Tapas bar.

11. Charlotte Pennington ‘sort of walked in’ and saw lots of people in the apartment but later said she searched only the patio area and didn’t enter the apartment.

12. Emma from Mark Warners came in.

13. Silvia Batista, Client Care Manageress from Mark Warners, came in. She says both shutters and windows were closed.

14, 15 & 16. GNR Officers - 3?

17 & 18. PJ Officers - 2 (’bald head’ and ‘baby face’ see Russell O’Brien statement)

by Guest 07.01.10 20:48

Jesus Christ

I can see now how those theories get you into trouble,,,,,they are always made up .

by preciousramotswe 07.01.10 20:54

A witness saw Kate talking to a woman on the balcony before the alarm was raised?
Can you give me a link to the relevant statement on the MCF, this is dynamite!!!

by Guest 07.01.10 21:12

What scream? What woman talking to Kate on the balcony? Where is this in the files?

by **Tony Bennett** 07.01.10 21:19

Chinagirl wrote:What scream? What woman talking to Kate on the balcony? Where is this in the files?

The scream is in the files, the witness statement of a Tapas waiter I think, the one who had a brief chat to Dianne Webster and saw Gerald McCann running about apparently looking before the scream was heard.

It'll take me a while longer to find details of the other witness.

by sunshine 07.01.10 22:24

So if Jane Tanner was left minding the twins why has so much been made of Kate leaving the twins alone with an abductor on the loose?

by Nits 07.01.10 22:31

badmanners wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
badmanners wrote:The PJ shut it down some time after their arrival, which was of course quite a while after the GNR.
But I would direct you to the thread where we were discussing Tanner and her Rogatory account of when PJ were told about her sighting.

At that point, everyone except Kate and another female were in the McCanns apartment, because that's where she told the police officer about what she had seen.
They had also all sat there writing out their 'timeline' of checks, with a PJ officer present.

Not so damn quick off the mark at clearing everyone out, were they hun? In fact they sat in there themselves.

Bit like locking the stable door after the horse had bolted eh? hun? Bit late after they had traipsed everywhere, and touched everything. And the reason they probably kept them all together was to take dna swabs to eliminate their dna.

That's a rather poor reply if I may say so.

If you arrive at a scene you fear may have been contaminated, what do you do?
Clear them all out, seal the place off, and call in forensics?

Or sit down with them all, call up another few people so you can take their statements, and generally faff about until a senior officer tells you to pull your bloody socks up?

What is so hard about admitting that these cops didn't have a clear idea what to do with the scene?
Especially when it is the ONE thing that Amaral admits the PJ did wrong!!

I agree if a Child goes missiing in the UK and the police arrive. Is the 1st thing they do treat the home as a crime sceen or question those that reported them missing. Someone with a bit of knowledge may know because I don't.

Nits

by flytrap 07.01.10 22:33

Just a little point. Silvia Batista is NOT and never has been employed by Mark Warner.

by flytrap 07.01.10 22:35

Tony Bennett wrote:
Chinagirl wrote:What scream? What woman talking to Kate on the balcony? Where is this in the files?
The scream is in the files, the witness statement of a Tapas waiter I think, the one who had a brief chat to Dianne Webster and saw Gerald McCann running about apparently looking before the scream was heard.

It'll take me a while longer to find details of the other witness.

I thought that was Kate McCann screaming from 5a when she discovered Madeleine was gone. As for the woman talking to Kate on the balcony....thats incorrect. I will await your information from the files.

E.T.A. Amy Tierney states the window was PARTIALLY open, not just open.