Portugal Resident

by HelenMeg 12.08.15 14:15

Interesting comment from a reader of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Maria Versos • a month ago
Have someone questioned what where the McCanns doing, staying on a three star development in Praia da Luz ? Have you seen on the police photos, what this bare apartment looks like? I am a realtor, and my english clients of this level stay in 5 Star hotels or in Private villas and, anyway, if they have children and leave for dinner without them, they engage the services of a baby sitter.
Plus, in Portugal, children are most welcome in restaurants. Not having someone to look after them, the natural thing would have been to take them with.
The McCans situation was therefore terribly strange, to say the least.
And if you happen to be in Praia da Luz, just ask the waiters at the restaurant where they were that night, and they will tell you what kind of "life" the McCans were leading...!!!!!! you will be veeeeery surprised...I was...also strange is the fact that the McCans, faced with the death of their child, have called first Sky News and only when Sky News arrived at the place, was the police called! Conveniently organised, I would say.
We portuguese have no doubts whatsoever to what happened that night. I still hope that the true emerges one of this days and that punishement will be served.
I also know the McCans were supposed to be questioned separately (they had been before always questioned jointly) by the criminal police the morning after the night they flew from Portugal. Our criminal police was sure that Kate would "break down" and the truth would come forward. But they are extremelky influent people and got away with it.
And thank you so mych for supporting Amaral. He is a man of honour and is beeing penalised for doing his work. I am ashamed of the portuguese government behaviour in this case (allowing the McCans to flee from Portugal on the midle of the investigation).
Maria Versos

by Verdi 12.08.15 15:25

HelenMeg wrote:Interesting comment from a reader of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Maria Versos • a month ago
Have someone questioned what where the McCanns doing, staying on a three star development in Praia da Luz ? Have you seen on the police photos, what this bare apartment looks like? I am a realtor, and my english clients of this level stay in 5 Star hotels or in Private villas and, anyway, if they have children and leave for dinner without them, they engage the services of a baby sitter.
Plus, in Portugal, children are most welcome in restaurants. Not having someone to look after them, the natural thing would have been to take them with.
The McCans situation was therefore terribly strange, to say the least.
And if you happen to be in Praia da Luz, just ask the waiters at the restaurant where they were that night, and they will tell you what kind of "life" the McCans were leading...!!!!!! you will be veeeeery surprised...I was...also strange is the fact that the McCans, faced with the death of their child, have called first Sky News and only when Sky News arrived at the place, was the police called! Conveniently organised, I would say.
We portuguese have no doubts whatsoever to what happened that night. I still hope that the true emerges one of this days and that punishement will be served.
I also know the McCans were supposed to be questioned separately (they had been before always questioned jointly) by the criminal police the morning after the night they flew from Portugal. Our criminal police was sure that Kate would "break down" and the truth would come forward. But they are extremelky influent people and got away with it.
And thank you so mych for supporting Amaral. He is a man of honour and is beeing penalised for doing his work. I am ashamed of the portuguese government behaviour in this case (allowing the McCans to flee from Portugal on the midle of the investigation).
Maria Versos

Interesting indeed and well worth a wider audience thumbsup

.

However, I do wish if these people know something of value they would spit it out rather than dangle little hints to be interpreted or misinterpreted, depending on the individual. The comments imply that this person has spoken to waiters (are they still employed - I thought the tapas restaurant had closed?) and has inside knowledge of the investigation/public opinion (?), even though some of the comments are factually incorrect.

Broadly speaking though I have to agree!

by Carrry On Doctor 12.08.15 16:31

Reading between the lines, the author is insinuating swinging or the sharing of sexual partners. My thoughts exactly.

Not paedophilia for me, a tragic accident early on followed by a faked abduction up to protect careers and reputations. They absolutely would want to keep their kicks secret.

With thanks to the 'brothers' for all their assistance to date.

The truth will out.

IMO.

by whodunit 12.08.15 18:43

I have no idea how the accidental death of a child would have exposed alleged swinging activities of the parents.

Being exposed as swingers would have been embarrassing yes but in the event of the death of a child the prospect of exposure for swinging is not worth the risk of coming under suspicion for murder as the McC's have done by allegedly hiding the body and staging the abduction.

If the supposed abduction and consequent glare of the media spotlight didn't expose these alleged activities, how was a tragic but completely routine accidental death of a child supposed to have uncovered it? By calling in the authorities and going through with everything that is required of them under such tragic circumstances just who exactly was going to question them about swinging? Why should the authorities question the parents or even suspect them of swinging if the child obviously died as the result of an accident with no foul play suspected?

Even if they did report the death and even IF foul play was suspected why would the authorities automatically suspect SWINGING had anything to do with the murder? Is there any circumstances in which consensual adult swinging would cause the murder of a child?

For that matter, are there circumstances under which swinging would cause the accidental death of a child? Because adult swinging as the cause of death rather than fear of exposure of same is the only motive I could understand for why they would hide the body and cover up a purely accidental death. But then, if actual swinging/sex activities is the CAUSE of the death then it's not consensual swinging anymore it's something else altogether and a legitimate motive for covering up the death. Fearing THAT kind of exposure as a motive makes sense to me.

I mean, from any angle swinging as a motive for hiding the body of a child and staging her abduction just makes no sense to me.

by Verdi 12.08.15 19:15

whodunit wrote:I have no idea how the accidental death of a child would have exposed alleged swinging activities of the parents.

Being exposed as swingers would have been embarrassing yes but in the event of the death of a child the prospect of exposure for swinging is not worth the risk of coming under suspicion for murder as the McC's have done by allegedly hiding the body and staging the abduction.

If the supposed abduction and consequent glare of the media spotlight didn't expose these alleged activities, how was a tragic but completely routine accidental death of a child supposed to have uncovered it? By calling in the authorities and going through with everything that is required of them under such tragic circumstances just who exactly was going to question them about swinging? Why should the authorities question the parents or even suspect them of swinging if the child obviously died as the result of an accident with no foul play suspected?

Even if they did report the death and even IF foul play was suspected why would the authorities automatically suspect SWINGING had anything to do with the murder? Is there any circumstances in which consensual adult swinging would cause the murder of a child?

For that matter, are there circumstances under which swinging would cause the accidental death of a child? Because adult swinging as the cause of death rather than fear of exposure of same is the only motive I could understand for why they would hide the body and cover up a purely accidental death. But then, if actual swinging/sex activities is the CAUSE of the death then it's not consensual swinging anymore it's something else altogether and a legitimate motive for covering up the death. Fearing THAT kind of exposure as a motive makes sense to me.

I mean, from any angle swinging as a motive for hiding the body of a child and staging her abduction just makes no sense to me.

Well said - couldn't agree more, the mere idea of a swingers jamboree leading to the cover-up of a child's disappearance, not only by the group but half the UK establishment, is preposterous to say the least. Let's face it who really cares if they were screwing each other. When you think of what goes on in Westminster, wife/husband/partner swapping pales into oblivion by comparison.

I used to work with a bloke who was a self confessed swinger, he used to brag about his neighbourly exploits, his dutiful wife tagging along for ~~the ride~~ sorry, to keep the marriage on track. He attracted quite a few new recruits through his ripping yarns of jolly capers - takes all sorts!

by Carrry On Doctor 12.08.15 19:37

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Many thanks for your response.

There is no causation of death associated with swinging, or wife swapping (depending on how it is described). It happened to be, as I consider, going on when something happened to MBM. I am not insinuating in any way that this activity directly caused the death of MBM, but I do believe it was the backdrop to the holiday and was therefore circumstantial.

On the basis of the files and analysis of KM's statements, there is of course the possibility that MBM was struck in a fit of rage. Perhaps MBM walked in on something ?

I absolutely do think that TM et al wanted, at all costs, to cover up their sexual activities that week, which would have been exposed had they told the truth about how MBM really died. However MBM died (and they know exactly what happened IMO), they wanted to conceal what they were doing. So what was it ?

Was just about to post when I read Verdi's post (above). No surprise I disagree. The T9 have everything to lose if swinging was exposed in the context of the death of a child, so they have gone along with a cover up.

IMO

by whodunit 12.08.15 19:39

@Verdi---"When you think of what goes on in Westminster, wife/husband/partner swapping pales into oblivion by comparison."

And as a group they were intelligent enough to have thought this through. On a scale of importance swinging vs. death it is no contest. It's not like they were having orgies out in the open. All of their activities would have been in apartments or private villas. There is no way the cops would have suspected them of swinging, much less cared about their swinging, much less told the world about their swinging, in the case of an accidental death of a child in which swinging had nothing to do with it.

by whodunit 12.08.15 19:54

Carrry On Doctor wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Many thanks for your response.

There is no causation of death associated with swinging, or wife swapping (depending on how it is described). It happened to be, as I consider, going on when something happened to MBM. I am not insinuating in any way that this activity directly caused the death of MBM, but I do believe it was the backdrop to the holiday and was therefore circumstantial.

On the basis of the files and analysis of KM's statements, there is of course the possibility that MBM was struck in a fit of rage. Perhaps MBM walked in on something ?

I absolutely do think that TM et al wanted, at all costs, to cover up their sexual activities that week, which would have been exposed had they told the truth about how MBM really died. However MBM died (and they know exactly what happened IMO), they wanted to conceal what they were doing. So what was it ?

Was just about to post when I read Verdi's post (above). No surprise I disagree. The T9 have everything to lose if swinging was exposed in the context of the death of a child, so they have gone along with a cover up.

IMO

Well, the bold is the question. I just don't think swinging is it because I can't see how consensual adult swinging is exposed or even implicated by the death of MBM, be it a tragic accident or a deliberate act of murder.

Hiding the body implies the body itself exposes the reason for the cover up. The Ramsey's failed to dispose of the body and thereby exposed themselves to charges of sexual abuse of their child because of the autopsy findings. their money protected them from facing charges and apparently for many years it kept secret a multi count indictment for the cover up TM have so far evaded justice because of political interference and the money they raised from the public because they deliberately courted media exposure. Now why would they court the media if they and they alone were responsible for the death of MBM due to swinging and feared exposure?

by sammi1967 12.08.15 20:29

This article just looks like bait to invite speculation on issues that have already been covered numerous times. Nothing new and no substance to it whatsoever.

by HelenMeg 12.08.15 22:39

It was not an article - it was a comment from a Portuguese reader of the Portuguese Resident - providing, I think, an insight into what 'locals to PDL' really think.... which in my view is VERY interesting & informative as they are probably
party to a lot more information than us.

by Carrry On Doctor 12.08.15 23:06

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I too don't think that swinging caused the death of MBM, it just happened to be going on when she died....exact circumstances unknown. However, swinging/wife swapping being revealed in the course of an investigation would certainly be a significant factor in the decision to fake the abduction.

Many people on here think that swinging is no issue. They are right in the great scheme of things. But it is a big issue for the public image of a catholic family (and other families), who are successful doctors, with promising careers, social standing, and other children that have to live with the stigma.

Your point about 'why hide the body' can be viewed in a number of ways. I agree if MBM was drugged/assaulted/abused then they would want to hide the body to conceal this. But similarly, if she were 'abducted' and then found with wounds from just a fall (and no DNA/evidence from an abductor) then this could be as bad. Either way, the body must not be findable.

The swinging theory is shot down regularly, but personally I think it adds up.

Just my thoughts.

IMO

by Carrry On Doctor 12.08.15 23:11

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I too don't think that swinging caused the death of MBM, it just happened to be going on when she died....exact circumstances unknown. However, swinging/wife swapping being revealed in the course of an investigation would certainly be a significant factor in the decision to fake the abduction.

Many people on here think that swinging is no issue. They are right in the great scheme of things. But it is a big issue for the public image of a catholic family (and other families), who are successful doctors, with promising careers, social standing, and other children that have to live with the stigma.

Your point about 'why hide the body' can be viewed in a number of ways. I agree if MBM was drugged/assaulted/abused then they would want to hide the body to conceal this. But similarly, if she were 'abducted' and then found with wounds from just a fall (and no DNA/evidence from an abductor) then this could be as bad. Either way, the body must not be findable.

The swinging theory is shot down regularly, but personally I think it adds up.

Just my thoughts.

IMO

by Carrry On Doctor 12.08.15 23:23

Apologies, I seem to have posted twice.

I meant to add, there are many good commentators on this case. I keep close tabs on TextUSA, Blacksmith, Dr Roberts etc.

Whilst TextUSA is certainly an advocate of the swinging theory, I do disagree with her theory of death on the 3rd (IMO it happened much earlier). The point I want to make is that good work is being done to challenge, test, and chip away at the stories presented to us.

The version of events that survives all scrutiny will likely be the truth. I think and hope OG already know what this is. Time will tell.

In the meantime, all theories welcome for debate.

IMO

by whodunit 12.08.15 23:30

@Carry On Doctor---"I agree if MBM was drugged/assaulted/abused then they would want to hide the body to conceal this."

Yes, but then 'swinging' per se had nothing to do with the death and/or disappearance of MBM.

Were the Tapas 9 engaging in swinging? Maybe, who knows? But as a theory of the case it is non-operational imo.

by Carrry On Doctor 12.08.15 23:50

whodunit wrote:@Carry On Doctor---"I agree if MBM was drugged/assaulted/abused then they would want to hide the body to conceal this."

Yes, but then 'swinging' per se had nothing to do with the death and/or disappearance of MBM.

Agreed.

Were the Tapas 9 engaging in swinging? Maybe, who knows? But as a theory of the case it is non-operational imo.

It only explains why things are being covered up. IMO it is the glue that holds them all together........the gun that GM held to their heads at the time.

If TM's are outed as swingers then the T7 are too. Hence the pact of silence. Nothing more sinister than that.

IMO

by whodunit 13.08.15 18:42

@Carry On Doctor--"It only explains why things are being covered up. IMO it is the glue that holds them all together........the gun that GM held to their heads at the time.

If TM's are outed as swingers then the T7 are too. Hence the pact of silence. Nothing more sinister than that."

Again, it simply does not follow that the accidental death of a child would lead to the exposure of swinging among the group. I mean, how do you get from dead child = swinging? It's not something authorities would automatically assume much less investigate. Intelligent people would be able to figure that out even in the heat of an emergency situation.

If the entire group knew that Madeleine had died and agreed to a cover up of the death then it does follow that something sinister was going on. There is no reason why the entire group should know of the death other than something sinister was going on, much less why they should enter into a conspiracy of silence over something so serious, illegal and life destroying as covering up a child's death over something that would be temporarily embarrassing, at worst.

by Verdi 13.08.15 19:34

David Payne - Uncle David, everybody's pal, all round jolly good egg..

DP holiday organiser.
DP holiday negociator.
DP father of 2 very young children.
DP reported by the Gaspars for behaviour suggesting paedophilia.
DP vaguely recognized by Yvonne Martin from the past in connection with her profession.
DP Ocean Club apartment epicentre for group socialising.
DP the only one of the group to pack a working child monitor.
DP claimed to be the last to see Madeleine alive other than her parents.
DP who gave different times for his visit to apartment 5a on the evening of 3rd.
DP who bathes other peoples children.
DP always in the background but always up front.
DP who never checked on the groups children whilst they were dining.
DP who Gerry McCann said: "On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, (witness statement 10 May 2007).

..David 'pact of silence' Payne

by Liz Eagles 13.08.15 19:42

DP - missing from CrimeWatch extravaganza

by Gaggzy 13.08.15 19:59

Verdi wrote:David Payne - Uncle David, everybody's pal, all round jolly good egg..

DP holiday organiser.
DP holiday negociator.
DP father of 2 very young children.
DP reported by the Gaspars for behaviour suggesting paedophilia.
DP vaguely recognized by Yvonne Martin from the past in connection with her profession.
DP Ocean Club apartment epicentre for group socialising.
DP the only one of the group to pack a working child monitor.
DP claimed to be the last to see Madeleine alive other than her parents.
DP who gave different times for his visit to apartment 5a on the evening of 3rd.
DP who bathes other peoples children.
DP always in the background but always up front.
DP who never checked on the groups children whilst they were dining.
DP who Gerry McCann said: "On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, (witness statement 10 May 2007).

..David 'pact of silence' Payne

.... and in Kate's literary masterpiece, 'madeleine' (can't even capitalise the poor girl's name) she speaks about Madeleine's fear of pain. Maybe that was a play on words and she spelt his surname differently.

DP said in his rogatory statement to Leicestershire police that 'Madeleine was a child you could have a lot of fun with.' what

(was referring to her in the past tense, just like his missus at the recent bike ride, doing it 'in memory of Madeleine McCann).

What kind of man would say that to a copper about someone else's 3-year-old girl?

by Verdi 13.08.15 20:01

aquila wrote:DP - missing from CrimeWatch extravaganza

All donations gratefully received.

Good point - as I say always in the background but always up front!

by Verdi 13.08.15 20:07

Gaggzy wrote:
Verdi wrote:David Payne - Uncle David, everybody's pal, all round jolly good egg..

DP holiday organiser.
DP holiday negociator.
DP father of 2 very young children.
DP reported by the Gaspars for behaviour suggesting paedophilia.
DP vaguely recognized by Yvonne Martin from the past in connection with her profession.
DP Ocean Club apartment epicentre for group socialising.
DP the only one of the group to pack a working child monitor.
DP claimed to be the last to see Madeleine alive other than her parents.
DP who gave different times for his visit to apartment 5a on the evening of 3rd.
DP who bathes other peoples children.
DP always in the background but always up front.
DP who never checked on the groups children whilst they were dining.
DP who Gerry McCann said: "On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, (witness statement 10 May 2007).

..David 'pact of silence' Payne

.... and in Kate's literary masterpiece, 'madeleine' (can't even capitalise the poor girl's name) she speaks about Madeleine's fear of pain. Maybe that was a play on words and she spelt his surname differently.

DP said in his rogatory statement to Leicestershire police that 'Madeleine was a child you could have a lot of fun with.'
(was referring to her in the past tense, just like his missus at the recent bike ride, doing it 'in memory of Madeleine McCann).

What kind of man would say that to a copper about someone else's 3-year-old girl?

This kind of man?

DP rogatory interview April 2008:

"The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels.."

Make the blood turn cold.

by Carrry On Doctor 13.08.15 22:19

whodunit wrote:@Carry On Doctor--"It only explains why things are being covered up. IMO it is the glue that holds them all together........the gun that GM held to their heads at the time.

If TM's are outed as swingers then the T7 are too. Hence the pact of silence. Nothing more sinister than that."

Again, it simply does not follow that the accidental death of a child would lead to the exposure of swinging among the group. I mean, how do you get from dead child = swinging? It's not something authorities would automatically assume much less investigate. Intelligent people would be able to figure that out even in the heat of an emergency situation.

If the entire group knew that Madeleine had died and agreed to a cover up of the death then it does follow that something sinister was going on. There is no reason why the entire group should know of the death other than something sinister was going on, much less why they should enter into a conspiracy of silence over something so serious, illegal and life destroying as covering up a child's death over something that would be temporarily embarrassing, at worst.

In red.....

I cant be explaining myself properly.

I dont think swinging is responsible for the death of MBM, but I DO think, in the course of a police report into an accidental death (had they come clean), that swinging would have been exposed as something that was going on.

Taking into account the T9 careers, perceived status, self importance, children that have to live with the ridicule etc, I consider that the T9 DID fear being outed as swingers and this WAS sufficient reason for them to cover up an accidental death. I think that GM would have driven this concept home most forcefully in the days leading up to the faked abduction.

Many people disagree on the basis that swinging is no big deal, which is fair enough, but I think the T9 have a different mindset based on the importance they place on their careers and image. Based on what I have read, I don't think there was anything more sinister going on (such as MBM being sexually abused), but of course I could be wrong and am receptive to all arguments. But the purpose of this post is because I think you may misunderstand my argument.

Hope the above is clear.

IMO.

by whodunit 13.08.15 23:06

It is clear. I get what you're saying I just don't agree with it. It's you who are misunderstanding my point.

I'll put it as simply as possible:

The accidental death of a child is unlikely to uncover the swinging activity of the parents so there would be no need for them to cover up her death out of fear of exposure.

Parents: Oh dear, our child is dead. She fell behind the couch and hit her head.

Friends: Call the cops!! Call an ambulance!!

Parents: We can't. We're swingers. If we report her death everybody will find out about us. We must hide the body, stage an abduction, call the cops, and make a pact of silence never to tell what happened. Oh, and somebody ALERT THE MEDIA!

Friends: ARE YOU STUPID!!? NOBODY WILL FIND OUT ABOUT OUR SWINGING IF WE FOLLOW THE PROPER PROCEDURE!! ON THE OTHER HAND IF WE HIDE THE BODY, STAGE AN ABDUCTION, AND ALERT THE MEDIA JUST TO COVER UP AN ACCIDENTAL DEATH WE ARE ALL AT RISK OF EXPOSURE NOT TO MENTION LONG PRISON TERMS!! CALL THE COPS!! CALL AN AMBULANCE!!!

At least one of the friends would have bowed out of such an ignorant, unnecessary plan and alerted the authorities.

So by hiding the body, staging an abduction, alerting the media, and telling a bunch of obvious porkers the group actually took a greater risk of exposing their alleged swinging activities than they would have simply by reporting an accidental death. If this alleged accident had been reported to authorities this whole thing could have been over 8 years ago with no one the wiser. As doctors all of them very well knew this to be a fact.

by Carrry On Doctor 14.08.15 9:42

We agree to disagree whodunit, its nothing personal, but the mocking tone of your scenario is unnecessary.

Its just how I view it based on the extensive material available.

IMO

by HelenMeg 14.08.15 9:57

I think if the child died a very straightforward accidental death then yes, there was no need to cover it up - no need to avoid a post mortem etc etc. No matter whether there were swinging activities or not.

However, I dont think that the child did die in a straightforward accidental manner - or none of this cover up would have occurred. I dont think, for one moment, that the child was intentionally murdered either.
I do believe that there was a large party of people in PdL that week for an organised swinging week - I do believe that the 9 were there as part of that 'event' and it would seem that the child died
at the hands of one of the adults through a fierce exasperated smack causing her to fall off the sofa as she was getting in the way at a 'heated' moment. The smack / blow / shove was not intended to kill simply to deter her from what she was doing - was done in the heat of the moment. A post mortem would have highlighted the 'blow / smack' and the investigation that would have necessarily followed would have highlighted the swinging activities that were taking place. The high profile people that were there would have been exposed and it would have become a scandal reported in MSM. This owuld have been unbearable to those taking part and therefore it was decided, probably hastily, to cover up the death. Therefore no post mortem and investigation.
If the child had died accidentally, a fall whilst jumping about on a sofa, the injuries exposed in the post mortem would have been appropriate to that and there would have needed to be no investigation and no exposing of swinging.

So the death had to have involved something that would have caused further investigation or no need to cover up. All IMO