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Portugal Resident

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 14.08.15 12:27

I think you may be spot on in your theory HelenMeg, and MBM being struck resulting in non-intentional death has crossed my mind many times. An autopsy would need to be avoided, and others would have been 'persuaded' into playing along for fear of association whilst all being "into each other" (KM's words).

If I recall correctly, the PJ suggested that scenario at the time.

IMO

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by whodunit on 14.08.15 14:17

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:We agree to disagree whodunit, its nothing personal, but the mocking tone of your scenario is unnecessary.

Its just how I view it based on the extensive material available.

IMO

I wasn't mocking you I was merely highlighting the ridiculous nature of the thinking from their perspective that would have to go into staging such a scenario to cover up a death that was purely accidental.

Like HelenMeg I do not believe the child was deliberately murdered but I also think, as doctors, any one of them could have come up with or even staged a plausible scenario to explain away a deliberate 'blow/smack' as accidental--and gotten away with it too, just as they have gotten away with a staged abduction. To me it all comes down to the parents believing it was absolutely impossible to allow the deceased child to undergo a postmortem exam.

In any case, neither a pure accident nor an enraged blow/smack as causes of death explains the high level of political interference in this case.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by joyce1938 on 14.08.15 14:26

I wonderh ow long dp was actually in the apartment at his visit ,was it 30 seconds or 30 min ? that could b interesting < did a child see toomuch ? joyce1938

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by lj on 14.08.15 16:29

For a real swingers week bringing the kids would not be smart. The accommodations were not that fit to house kids and have your own "fun". So the link with swinging (making therefore the swinging important) might be very simple: they sedated the kids to be able to work on their own agenda and an accident under sedation happened, or as suggested Madeleine walked in on one of the meeting and was hit by one of the participants. I have no doubt that under real interrogation one of the 9 would have broken down and given everything up.  Somehow I think that sedation because "it was our vacation too mommie is so much into uncle Dave or whoever" would not do very well with either the Portuguese or the British community. Same for a slap with disastrous consequences. 
Somehow I still believe it is much simpler: Kate and Gerry doping up their kids (maybe the others did that too) just so they could get shit-faced at night.
Even they would realize that would add up to neglect and endangerment.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 14.08.15 18:44

@whodunit wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:We agree to disagree whodunit, its nothing personal, but the mocking tone of your scenario is unnecessary.

Its just how I view it based on the extensive material available.

IMO

I wasn't mocking you I was merely highlighting the ridiculous nature of the thinking from their perspective that would have to go into staging such a scenario to cover up a death that was purely accidental.

Like HelenMeg I do not believe the child was deliberately murdered but I also think, as doctors, any one of them could have come up with or even staged a plausible scenario to explain away a deliberate 'blow/smack' as accidental--and gotten away with it too, just as they have gotten away with a staged abduction. To me it all comes down to the parents believing it was absolutely impossible to allow the deceased child to undergo a postmortem exam.

In any case, neither a pure accident nor an enraged blow/smack as causes of death explains the high level of political interference in this case.

Thank you very much for this whodunit.

Re your comment highlighted in red. I do agree, it is very likely A PM examination had to be avoided. In my previous posts I have stated that swinging is a factor in their decision to cover up. I think HelenMeg is probably spot on in her thoughts about how all this came about. The initial incident may have been confined to a close party (of 4 perhaps), but the consequences of PM/investigation, and hence the revelation of wider swinging, would blight the others in the group.

I would understand some reluctance in the group to go along with the cover up (swinging is maybe no big deal), but GM would be very forceful in persuading doubters to go along with his plan.

As for high level of interference, we are all at a loss to understand this. It could range from dirt on someone higher up, or perhaps simply a brother in trouble (roaring like a bull) that needed shielding (as per the guidelines).

IMO

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by HelenMeg on 14.08.15 20:29

I must emphasise that my thoughts and beliefs on what occurred as outlined above are based on the analysis done by Textusa, which includes (amongst much more) indepth analysis of the Carpenter statement, searches done by the PJ on computer equipment, Tapas Quiz nights,  blue bag, Tapas bar round table myth, OC employees, other guests... well endless meticulous research.

It is pretty obvious that something was going on that week which involved guests at the OC complex and possibly ex-pats in PdL. It is pretty obvious that extra staff such as child care assistants were taken on for that week - It is pretty obvious that the guests we know about (exec media personnel / doctors / consultants etc etc) were more suited to staying in private chalets or hotels than a mediocre 'out of season' holiday apartment.  Even the emphasis on Tennis ... I think we ocuold safely substitute the word 'tennis' for adult activities.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by sonic72 on 14.08.15 21:13

How are the bar staff going to know if they're swinging or not? They're not exactly going to be getting it on in the tapas bar!

Would they be swinging with Payne's mother-in-law there?! 

Would they leave the kids home alone to go swinging with each other?


I dont know if there's anything in the swinging claims to convince me they were doing that.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by HelenMeg on 14.08.15 21:39

The bar staff would probably know what type of activities were going on and the reason for the 60 guests to be there on a low peak season week. It was shown that the OC may have hired extra staff  including child care assistants - an abnormally large amount for low season.  Of course any adult activities would take place in private pool areas / apartments etc but of course the staff would have some good idea of what was happening. 

I'm sure the kids were not left home alone - the alleged neglect was surely a myth created to ensure that an abunction could take place. The kids would have been cared for by OC nannies / child care / creche. Adult activities would not have taken place 24 hrs per day - just perhaps for 3 - 4 hours per day if one felt inclined. 

If one wanted to arrange a week of adult activities / swinging etc for affluent people so that a resort was occupied during low season - what would you do to attract the guests?.  I guess you would lay on childcare
and necessary staff to cater for the guests needs. You would ensure their privacy. After all, its just people having a good time, enjoying each other in private, something thats easier to do abroad than nearer to home. 
And that would have been that, until something very unfortunate and tragic happened -maybe someone lost their temper and lashed out? If death had to be investigated - suddenly all the guests that went to have a quiet discrete  'adult' time, not hurting anyone, would be thrown into the limelight and splashed in the tabloids. If you were, say a high profile politician or CEO - how would you feel about that? Suddenly your private life is out there for everyone to read about.  Perhaps your wife didnt know you were there, or maybe your teenage kids would suddeenly read about you in the news...  I can quite understand the urge to cover it up at all costs. And if you were a person of influence with connections you would call in a favour from friends in high places ....

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by whodunit on 14.08.15 21:49

@sonic72 wrote:How are the bar staff going to know if they're swinging or not? They're not exactly going to be getting it on in the tapas bar!

Would they be swinging with Payne's mother-in-law there?! 

Would they leave the kids home alone to go swinging with each other?


I dont know if there's anything in the swinging claims to convince me they were doing that.

As someone else mentioned why even bring the children on a 'swinging holiday'? What purpose was served by bringing children along on an 'adults only' holiday? Wouldn't you say that children 'cramp your style' if the point of your holiday is to swing with other adults?  It's not as if these people were poor and without resources. Any of the couples had the resources to hire a nanny to stay home with the kids, or they could have left them with grandparents or trusted friends. If no arrangements could be made then the simple solution would have been to stay home.

Yet, each and every couple brought their children on a 'swinging holiday' and then proceeded to do two extremely odd things concerning them: 1. Left them in chreche all day every day and never spent much time with them during the most logical time to spend with their kids if they meant to 'swing' at night. 2. When the couples really could have used the babysitting service to go out at night and 'do their thing' suddenly all of the children were left alone without supervision, even when they were ill.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by HelenMeg on 14.08.15 21:58

@whodunit wrote:
@sonic72 wrote:How are the bar staff going to know if they're swinging or not? They're not exactly going to be getting it on in the tapas bar!

Would they be swinging with Payne's mother-in-law there?! 

Would they leave the kids home alone to go swinging with each other?


I dont know if there's anything in the swinging claims to convince me they were doing that.

As someone else mentioned why even bring the children on a 'swinging holiday'? What purpose was served by bringing children along on an 'adults only' holiday? Wouldn't you say that children 'cramp your style' if the point of your holiday is to swing with other adults?  It's not as if these people were poor and without resources. Any of the couples had the resources to hire a nanny to stay home with the kids, or they could have left them with grandparents or trusted friends. If no arrangements could be made then the simple solution would have been to stay home.

Yet, each and every couple brought their children on a 'swinging holiday' and then proceeded to do two extremely odd things concerning them: 1. Left them in chreche all day every day and never spent much time with them during the most logical time to spend with their kids if they meant to 'swing' at night. 2. When the couples really could have used the babysitting service to go out at night and 'do their thing' suddenly all of the children were left alone without supervision, even when they were ill.
I am actually quite amazed that you appear to believe the children were left alone in the evenings? Can you not see that the fairy story of the children being left alone in the evenings whilst the parents dined out and checked them every half an hour was created in order to give the abduction some credibility? I thought we had moved on from the 'neglect' myth by now...
Please can you confirm whether you really believe the children were left alone and that the checking scenario took place. If you do believe this, do you believe it because Kate and Gerry and the Tapas 7 told you so?

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by whodunit on 14.08.15 22:11

@HelenMeg--"I am actually quite amazed that you appear to believe the children were left alone in the evenings? Can you not see that the fairy story of the children being left alone in the evenings whilst the parents dined out and checked them every half an hour was created in order to give the abduction some credibility? I thought we had moved on from the 'neglect' myth by now..."

No, I actually do not believe it but what I think was going on at night with the children is probably different from what you think was going on. We know for a fact that babysitting services were not used. So were they all staying in with their kids at night, minding their own business? Not according to the 'swinging theory'.   Did they drag the kids along to their 'adults only' orgies? Well, where do the swinging theorists claim the children were kept at night?

"Please can you confirm whether you really believe the children were left alone and that the checking scenario took place. If you do believe this, do you believe it because Kate and Gerry and the Tapas 7 told you so?"

As far as I can tell the 'checking scenario' was not even acted out for the Tapas bar staff, at least not in the ridiculous 'up and down jack in the box' fashion the crimewatch program claimed. It was just something that was said to give the abduction scenario a thin veneer of supposed credibility. Which it actually did not at all.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by HelenMeg on 14.08.15 22:20

@whodunit wrote:@HelenMeg--"I am actually quite amazed that you appear to believe the children were left alone in the evenings? Can you not see that the fairy story of the children being left alone in the evenings whilst the parents dined out and checked them every half an hour was created in order to give the abduction some credibility? I thought we had moved on from the 'neglect' myth by now..."

No, I actually do not believe it but what I think was going on at night with the children is probably different from what you think was going on. We know for a fact that babysitting services were not used. So were they all staying in with their kids at night, minding their own business? Not according to the 'swinging theory'.   Did they drag the kids along to their 'adults only' orgies? Well, where do the swinging theorists claim the children were kept at night?

"Please can you confirm whether you really believe the children were left alone and that the checking scenario took place. If you do believe this, do you believe it because Kate and Gerry and the Tapas 7 told you so?"

As far as I can tell the 'checking scenario' was not even acted out for the Tapas bar staff, at least not in the ridiculous 'up and down jack in the box' fashion the crimewatch program claimed. It was just something that was said to give the abduction scenario a thin veneer of supposed credibility. Which it actually did not at all.
Hey - we know for a fact that babysitting services were not used????? No we dont - although depends what you mean by babysitting.  The creche girls could be paid to take care of the children in the evenings etc.

Anyway, Facebook users. I have been told that Matt Oldfield has posted his recent holiday biking pictures. I cant see them as dont use facebook.  Is it an invasion of privacy to suggest that someone take a look as they have been posted publicly for all to see....? Apparently they tell me it  looks like he has moved on since 2007 - in more ways than one!

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 14.08.15 22:25

hi  Matt Oldfield. I know you read here a lot. How's your conscience doing these days?

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by whodunit on 14.08.15 22:28

@HelenMeg--"Hey - we know for a fact that babysitting services were not used????? No we dont - although depends what you mean by babysitting.  The creche girls could be paid to take care of the children in the evenings etc."

They all claimed to have left their children alone in the apartments at night and used a combination of baby monitors and checking. If there is proof they actully did use any of the babysitting services, night creche or individual girls, wouldn't Amaral or someone else have contradicted them by now?

In any case, the Portuguese, at the height of the Casa Pia high society pedo ring scandal, might indeed have had their own ideas about what was going on at that time.

@Get'emGonçalo---"Matt Oldfield. I know you read here a lot. How's your conscience doing these days?"

Yeah, and are you or are you not related to the late Maurice Oldfield, former head of MI6 who was implicated in the cover up of Kincora CSA scandal?

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 14.08.15 22:32

Sir Maurice Oldfield....yet another Sir.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by Guest on 14.08.15 22:42

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:hi  Matt Oldfield. I know you read here a lot. How's your conscience doing these days?
I'm sure Matt's keen to join in the discussions. Don't hold back, but don't break any forum rules.  big grin

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by sammi1967 on 14.08.15 22:55

@HelenMeg...ok so it was a comment as opposed to an article. That doesn't change anything though ....it still just invites the same speculation that has been covered over and over again and offers no new facts. That's all I was saying. You only have to read the ongoing thread to see that it's not produced anything of any value. Any one of us could post a comment on any article or site implying we know more than we do and it means absolutely diddly squat.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by Verdi on 14.08.15 23:06

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:hi  Matt Oldfield. I know you read here a lot. How's your conscience doing these days?
And one for Russell O'Brien   hi

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 15.08.15 6:39

@Verdi wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:hi  Matt Oldfield. I know you read here a lot. How's your conscience doing these days?
And one for Russell O'Brien   hi

And Jane Tanner - I know she reads here too splat

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by HelenMeg on 15.08.15 13:10

If they all read here then that indicates that they all have a need to watch over their shoulder...and always will until the truth finally emerges.   If they had simply told the truth 8 years ago in the rogatory statements 
they  would have no need to read what people are discussing and worry when they get too close to the truth. 

Thos people will never get closure or be able to live their lives in a normal and carefree manner. They will always be bound by this case and the knowledge that one day the truth will emerge. We only have to read their rogatory statements once again to see how difficult it was for them to utter a straightforward truthful sentence. ERR, err, err, err... so err...

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by lj on 15.08.15 14:50

And the biggest challenge is still to come: when their children reach teenage years they will search for themselves, and these fairy tales stories the parents told them won't be blindly accepted anymore. 
Kate might have been protected by Portuguese law when she said "no comment", I doubt Sean and Amelie or Eve or any of the other children will take that for an answer.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by whodunit on 15.08.15 18:35

@lj wrote:And the biggest challenge is still to come: when their children reach teenage years they will search for themselves, and these fairy tales stories the parents told them won't be blindly accepted anymore. 
Kate might have been protected by Portuguese law when she said "no comment", I doubt Sean and Amelie or Eve or any of the other children will take that for an answer.

I have a very uncomfortable feeling that Sean and Amelie and the other children will know the answers very well without having to ask and would know very well never to ask.

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by Nina on 15.08.15 18:56

@whodunit wrote:
@lj wrote:And the biggest challenge is still to come: when their children reach teenage years they will search for themselves, and these fairy tales stories the parents told them won't be blindly accepted anymore. 
Kate might have been protected by Portuguese law when she said "no comment", I doubt Sean and Amelie or Eve or any of the other children will take that for an answer.

I have a very uncomfortable feeling that Sean and Amelie and the other children will know the answers very well without having to ask and would know very well never to ask.
How old  are all  the  Tapas children now?

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by PeterMac on 15.08.15 20:39

@Nina wrote:
How old  are all  the  Tapas children now?
Some of them are 10.
One of them did not make it to 4 !

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Re: Portugal Resident

Post by Nina on 15.08.15 21:20

@PeterMac wrote:
@Nina wrote:
How old  are all  the  Tapas children now?
Some of them are 10.
One of them did not make it to 4 !
sad How old is Tanners eldest, she  must be 11 or 12? Oh delight an hormonal teenage girl,  enjoy Jane.

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