Was Madeleine seen after Sunday?

HiDeHo wrote:There seems to be an issue about witnesses 'lying'.

I do not accuse any independent witness of lying.

This thread is NOT about whether witnesses lied.. It is about whether any of their statements are PROOF of Madeleine being seen during the week

In my research, I did not include T7 statements as I have explained on many other threads that their statements are riddled with discrepancies and therefore I could not claim a specific sighting of Madeleine by any one of them as PROOF.

Please DO NOT refer to any of the reason behind this thread or any of my comments to have ANYTHING to do with independent witnesses lying..

I reserve judgement on T7

Just because an independent witness may be mistaken, or does not provide specific proof does NOT mean they are lying.


DID THEY PROVIDE PROOF OF SEEING MADELEINE? ONLY FATIMA HAS DONE SO IN MY OPINION>

Can anyone show me ANOTHER statement that is PROOF Madeleine was seen is my challenge?

Verdi wrote:pennylane, if you look at facts from a different angle the same could be said of McCanns group of friends but if didn't happen did it?  One word from any key players or appendages could have brought their house of cards to the ground but it didn't happen did it?  The most obvious reason I can see for this anomaly is that they are being protected - in the same way as the McCanns themselves appear to have been protected.

Firstly, there is no indication to suggest that Catriona Baker was not previously acquainted with the McCanns or someone/s closely connected thereto.  It does appear strange to me that Catriona Baker was reported to have taken Madeleine's disappearance so personally, ostensibly only knowing the child for a few hours a day for a period of four days and on the surface having no responsibility for Madeleine's alleged disappearance - and then shipped off with the speed of light to another holiday destination - Greece!

Then, why did the McCanns invite Catriona Baker specifically to visit them at their home in November 2005, prior to the proposed rogatory interviews early 2008 to be conducted by Leicester Police (the McCanns local constabulary) and around the same time at the clandestine Rothley Hotel meet?  Lest we forget..

Processo Volume XI, pages 3030 to 3034

Faxed from Society of Attorneys 16 Oct 2007 to Ministerio Publico in Portimao.

GERALD PATRICK MCCANN and KATE MARIE HEALY, better identified in the documents referenced above, approach, very respectfully, to set forth and request, Sir, the following:

1 - Since the applicants stopped being considered witnesses, moving to suspects of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, witnesses central to the discovery of truth were not questioned, or re-questioned.

2 - With the recent investigations, witness interviews and interrogations of the applicants, new questions were raised and doubts aroused, broadening, in this way, the object of the investigation, as well as matters of fact considered relevant to the investigations.

3 - Indeed, the Investigation departed from confining itself to the disappearance of the minor, proceeding to embrace other matters, allegedly connected with her.

4 - It is therefore essential to hear these witnesses who can explain facts now very relevant, such as the way the couple treated their children, their personality and routine and, even, the reactions manifested by them after the disappearance and the consequent psychological and emotional state.

5 - So, and because it is believed essential and indispensable for the establishment of the facts and consequent discovery of the truth, they come to request the hearing of the following groups of witnesses, all present and with direct knowledge of the facts:

Group 1 (persons with whom the couple dined every night during the holidays)

    • David Payne, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Fiona Payne, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Diane Webster, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Russell O'Brien, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Jane Tanner, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Rachael Oldfield, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Matthew Oldfield, with address at ... and telephone no. ...

Group 2 (independent customers and employees of the Ocean Club who saw the behaviour of Kate and Gerry on the day of the disappearance):

    • Dan Smith, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Steve Carpenter, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Carolyn Carpenter, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Jeremy Wilkins, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Catriona Baker, with address at ... and telephone no. ...

Group 3 (people who saw and/or spoke with Kate and Gerry at the time they noticed Madeleine's disappearance):

    • Patricia Cameron, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Paul Seddon, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Michelle Thompson, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Emma Knights, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Alan Pike, with address at ... and telephone no. ...

Group 4 (people who knew the daily routine of Kate and Gerry and their relationship with their children before coming to Portugal):

    • Janet Kennedy, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Amanda Coxon, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Karen McCalman, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Patricia Cameron, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Sharon Lewin, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Hayley Plummer, with address at ... and telephone no. ...

Group 5 (persons closely involved in the routine of Kate and Gerry in Portugal after the disappearance of Madeleine and their emotional state)

    • Sandy Cameron, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Michael Wright, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Clarence Mitchell, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Linda McQueen, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Nicky Gill, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Justine McGuinness, with address at ... and telephone no. ...

Group 6 (Professionals who can confirm that there was no abnormality in the way Kate and Gerry treated their children):

    • Dr. Phil Hussey, with address at ... and telephone no. ...
    • Dr Ian Schofield, with address at ... and telephone no. ...

6 - It is certain that some of these witnesses have already been heard, at least once, in the investigation.

7 - But, at that time, the direction of the investigation was apparently different, [that being] the reason why some of these witnesses were not heard on the matters mentioned above, currently considered relevant to the prosecution of the investigation and who already were, furthermore, the object of actual proceedings, namely the questioning and the interrogations of the applicants.

We submit that, their testimony [being] essential to the discovery of the truth, and given that the witnesses designated above actually live in the United Kingdom, where they will be found, (except Dan Smith and Emma Knights who will be found in Portugal), it is requested further, under Arts. 229 and following of CPP, 145 and following of Law 14-4/99 of 31 August (Law of International Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters) and 3 and following of the European Convention on Mutual Legal Support in Criminal Matters, that a Rogatory Letter be expedited for them to be heard in the United Kingdom.

They ask that the request be granted

The Advocates
CARLOS PINTO DE ABREU
ROGÉRIO ALVES

Why would the McCanns consider Catriona Baker to be a viable witness, grouped together with their friends and close acquaintances ?  If we are to believe she only supervised Madeleine for a few hours during the daytime at the Lobster Club, how could she be considered to be an important witness?  Before anyone says she was invited as a sort of character witness - how the heck could she vouch for a couple of strangers she only encountered for a few seconds/minutes twice a day for four days?

There must be more to this than meets the eye.

pennylane wrote:@ verdi,

I too believe the McCanns/tapasniks are being protected (imo) by the Home Office, however, I don't think the Home Office has had the full on influence it wished to exert over the Portuguese investigation, hence the introduction of Operation Grange.

Verdi wrote:

pennylane wrote:@ verdi,

I too believe the McCanns/tapasniks are being protected (imo) by the Home Office, however, I don't think the Home Office has had the full on influence it wished to exert over the Portuguese investigation, hence the introduction of Operation Grange.

Yes, Goncalo Amaral - the proverbial thorn in the side!

pennylane wrote:

Verdi wrote:

pennylane wrote:@ verdi,

I too believe the McCanns/tapasniks are being protected (imo) by the Home Office, however, I don't think the Home Office has had the full on influence it wished to exert over the Portuguese investigation, hence the introduction of Operation Grange.

Yes, Goncalo Amaral - the proverbial thorn in the side!

Indeed verdi, an intensely sharp thorn that strikes fear at the very heart of Team McScam!

j.rob wrote:The vital time-frame is Sunday. After Sunday lunch-time the McCanns' deviated from the routine followed by the rest of the group and chose to have both breakfast and lunch alone in their apartment - so they say. There is not even any account of Madeleine or the twins having either breakfast at the Millennium or lunch at the Paynes apartment AFTER Sunday lunch-time.

Why would the McCanns alone deviate from the routine followed by the others? This is suspicious, imo. 

Something happened - probably on Sunday night once the vino had kicked in, perhaps. Someone lashed out, imo, with devastating consequences.

By the time of the alleged abduction, Madeleine was dead. Just because *something* happened on Monday it does not mean that Madeleine died then. I believe she died later on in the week but almost definitely by Thursday evening because otherwise Matt would not have flagged up the (irony?) of searching along Cemetary Road in his rogatory. His brain would simply not have leaked this if he had been genuinely searching for an alive child. Death would not be on his mind at all. The Mcs and Tapas would have been frantically searching for clues as to what had happened and who had taken her. 

Sunday *something happened*, Monday and Tuesday there may well have been frantic attempts to decide what to do or not to but by Wednesday a collective decision had been taken to follow a certain course of action.

The (faked) abduction went ahead on Thursday evening. I think it could possibly have been planned for slightly earlier in the week but extra time was needed by TM to sort out 'the disaster'. 

I

willowthewisp wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Verdi wrote:

pennylane wrote:@ verdi,

I too believe the McCanns/tapasniks are being protected (imo) by the Home Office, however, I don't think the Home Office has had the full on influence it wished to exert over the Portuguese investigation, hence the introduction of Operation Grange.

Yes, Goncalo Amaral - the proverbial thorn in the side!

Indeed verdi, an intensely sharp thorn that strikes fear at the very heart of Team McScam!

Hi Pennylane,This shows just how corrupt the UK Governments have been complicit in the cover up and I doubt very much that "Operation Grange" has been an investigation into the process, only one outcome"Abduction"?
We can only hope that the people of Portugal hold steadfast to their cause of trying to find the Truth of what happened to Madeleine McCann whilst on holiday April 28 -3 May 2007 at the Ocean Club Apartments,run by Mark Warner complex?
What ever evidence the UK police have acquired will be be put on the do not "Dust shelf" and probably given a D notice on National Security grounds?

j.rob wrote:In reply to Carry on Doctor (I like the name by the way).

I used to think that it was possible that on Thursday evening at the time of the alleged abduction  Madeleine was still alive. Not happy and well because I am sure something bad happened earlier in the week. But perhaps injured/ill/sedated/abused or a combination thereof.

She might have been taken to a 'safe house' somewhere in order to decide what to do, for instance. 

(But then the dog alerts suggest someone died in apartment 5A and a body had been in the Renault Scenic. So how could it be because apartment 5A was sealed off as a crime scene? Why on earth would anyone want to bring a body into apartment 5A after May 4th?) 

Tn the early media interviews I got the impression that Kate (and possibly Gerry) was not sure whether Madeleine was alive or dead. It is only towards the end of May that the language used and other indicators suggest that Kate, Gerry and Clarence Mitchell know she is dead. I do suspect that Kate was not quite in on ht whole picture. 

However, there are quite a few indicators, imo, that the Mcs and at least some of the Tapas knew that Madeleine was dead by Thursday evening.

1. David Payne in one rogatory claims he visited apartment 5A early that evening and all three children looked like angels. I think he even says something about being dressed in white. He over-embellishes how they all look so happy and well cared-for. Just way too much information here. If there was nothing suspicious he would not have been over-emotive like that. If he genuinely wanted to help a police investigation find an alive child, he would have been very factual, very to the point.

2. Matt in his rogatory flags up Cemetary Road not once but twice. He says that he noticed the name of the road at the time because is seemed a terrible (irony/coincidence). Death is on his mind. This suggests to me that at the time of the searching that night Matt knows that Madeleine is dead.

3. Kate and Gerry, when police arrive, are wailing as if they were Arabs in prayer. This must signify utter desperation. It suggests to me that their child is dead and they are terrified of what the police might discover.

4. Kate and Gerry call for a priest that night. You do that when someone is dead or about to die. One might theorize that they were unable to call a priest for the last rites so they did the next best thing.

5. The language used by Kate in particular is often strongly suggestive of a death, imo.

On discovering the open window and raised shutters: "Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no!"

"Madeleine's gone!"

"We've let her down."

In media interviews too, when describing the open window and whooshing curtains: "I just knew. She had been taken."

Kate describes how she went back to the Paynes apartment late that Thursday night or early that Friday morning and "the cold black night enveloped us all for what seemed like an eternity. Dianne and I sat there staring at each other, still as statues. 'It's so dark,' she said again and again. 'I want the light to come'. I felt exactly the same way. 

I think that this is the language of death. 

Kate writes how Gerry keeps saying to her: "Kate, we need to rest."

Why would you need to rest if you knew that an abductor had just stolen your child? That would be the last thing on your mind in the hours after 'the abduction'?

Joannep43 wrote:@j.rob imo interesting observations there in your posts.I agree with a lot that you have written.  I have been reading the Rogatory statements and what has jumped out to me is this... Each one of the Tapas group were asked how much they saw of Madeleiene during the week or when did they last see her.  What I find strange is that SOME of the Tapas group are not exactly certain when they last saw Madeleiene.  Some say they "think" a certain time or day was when they last set eyes on her.  It got me thinking that when anyone has lost a relative or someone we have spent time with, we always remember the last time we saw them.  We usually remember that last meeting,the last conversation,or glimpse of them with clarity.  Even decades later we still remember where we were when we last saw a particular person.Its usually etched in our memories, but not the case here with some of the Tapas group.