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The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

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The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by HiDeHo on 14.01.13 4:10

The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of Madeleine (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!



http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic30.html




Mark Harrison MBE
National Search Adviser
Homicide, Missing Persons, Mass Fatality Disasters



Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.


Although this needs a bit of patience to 'grasp' (for me anyway...lol) I think this could be one of the most IMPORTANT 'clues'....that the police files haven't told us directly.

Something I came across a week or so ago.

Mark Harrison, in his report from July 23rd 2007 where he was planning the locations for the cadaver and blood dogs to search said something VERY TELLING imo.

The files continuously tell us that Madeleine was at high tea in the tapas (according to witness statements which would need to be included as 'evidence' until proven otherwise) at about 5.30pm Thursday...Kate, Catriona, Gerry etc.

HOWEVER....Mark Harrison claims that he sent the dogs to search in the LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION which was NOT the tapas bar...but the CRECHE!

A search was scheduled for the CRECHE....that tells me there is NO confirmed sighting/knowledge of Madeleine at High Tea!!!! (correct me if my logic is incorrect)

THEREFORE...the last confirmed sighting was at the creche but...WHICH DAY?

My logic tells me that if Madeleine stayed to the end of the day, the nanny would walk her and the other children over to High tea meaning the TAPAS was the last confirmed location....

More logic..tells me that it must have been a day when the PARENTS picked her up early (before high tea)...and...the only day they picked her up early was MONDAY! The day that EVERYONE avoids and does not talk about...The day before the discrepancies started to happen (on Tuesday).....

It could (indirectly as the police have not included in the files but Mark Harrison would not be organising a search as the last confirmed location in the creche...if she was seen AFTER in the tapas at High Tea.) be a real indication that something happened to Madeleine on MONDAY...

I have not arrived at this possibility to prove my thoughts about Monday (because the discrepancies started Tuesday) but as it can be seen clearly...the last place that Madeleine was confirmed to be by someone other than T9 was at the creche!!

Does anyone else find this amazing?

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Nina on 14.01.13 8:24

@HiDeHo wrote:The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of Madeleine (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!



http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic30.html




Mark Harrison MBE
National Search Adviser
Homicide, Missing Persons, Mass Fatality Disasters



Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.


Although this needs a bit of patience to 'grasp' (for me anyway...lol) I think this could be one of the most IMPORTANT 'clues'....that the police files haven't told us directly.

Something I came across a week or so ago.

Mark Harrison, in his report from July 23rd 2007 where he was planning the locations for the cadaver and blood dogs to search said something VERY TELLING imo.

The files continuously tell us that Madeleine was at high tea in the tapas (according to witness statements which would need to be included as 'evidence' until proven otherwise) at about 5.30pm Thursday...Kate, Catriona, Gerry etc.

HOWEVER....Mark Harrison claims that he sent the dogs to search in the LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION which was NOT the tapas bar...but the CRECHE!

A search was scheduled for the CRECHE....that tells me there is NO confirmed sighting/knowledge of Madeleine at High Tea!!!! (correct me if my logic is incorrect)

THEREFORE...the last confirmed sighting was at the creche but...WHICH DAY?

My logic tells me that if Madeleine stayed to the end of the day, the nanny would walk her and the other children over to High tea meaning the TAPAS was the last confirmed location....

More logic..tells me that it must have been a day when the PARENTS picked her up early (before high tea)...and...the only day they picked her up early was MONDAY! The day that EVERYONE avoids and does not talk about...The day before the discrepancies started to happen (on Tuesday).....

It could (indirectly as the police have not included in the files but Mark Harrison would not be organising a search as the last confirmed location in the creche...if she was seen AFTER in the tapas at High Tea.) be a real indication that something happened to Madeleine on MONDAY...

I have not arrived at this possibility to prove my thoughts about Monday (because the discrepancies started Tuesday) but as it can be seen clearly...the last place that Madeleine was confirmed to be by someone other than T9 was at the creche!!

Does anyone else find this amazing?

With you all the way here HiDeHo .

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by AskTheDogsSandra on 14.01.13 8:43

So if the last confirmed location was the creche, how/why did the cadaver end up behind the sofa, in the flowerbed, in the wardrobe etc? huh

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by T4two on 14.01.13 9:44

snip... This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann...

So Mark Harrison did not consider Catriona Baker to be an independent witness

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by HiDeHo on 14.01.13 14:23

@T4two wrote:
snip... This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann...

So Mark Harrison did not consider Catriona Baker to be an independent witness


This report was done prior to the rogatories but AFTER all the 'sightings' of Madeleine at high tea (Pennington and others).

We KNOW that the police have a lot more info than they have made public and spent, I'm sure, many hours informally discussing with witnesses.

My opinion is that they KNOW that something happened to Madeleine before she went to high tea on Thursday and possibly another day.

They would not put time energy and resources into searching the creche with the cadaver dogs if she disappeared AFTER being at high tea (no matter what day)

This is a little 'gem' of information that was probably not meant to be released for public knowledge and there are probably many files that are not released that refer to her last known/confirmed location according to what they KNOW and not according to questionable witness statements.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by roy rovers on 14.01.13 21:34

Certainly consistent with a grand theory that would accommodate most of the facts in a believable narrative including Murat's 7am flight from Exeter on Tuesday 1 May.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Nina on 14.01.13 22:48

So are you saying that Madeleine died at the creche re the cadaver dogs to search there, or, that her body was stored there?

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by HiDeHo on 15.01.13 1:12

@Nina wrote:So are you saying that Madeleine died at the creche re the cadaver dogs to search there, or, that her body was stored there?

At this point he was only organising the searches with the cadaver blood dogs....they didnt have any idea of cadaver scent in the apartment at that time.

My point is that we are led to believe that Madeleine was at high tea....which obviously (or so it seems) was not a consideration otherwise there would not be any reason for the time and effort checking for cadaver odour in a place that she was known to be BEFORE going to high tea...

If she was at high tea they would KNOW there was no cadaver scent at the creche and they wouldnt claim the creche was the last confirmed location...they would have said it was the tapas restaurant.

To claim the creche as the last confirmed location and to search there with a cadaver dog means shewas NOT at high tea on Thursday and the timeline we are led to believe does not exist!

Please someone let me know if there is something I have overlooked in this logic!

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by aiyoyo on 15.01.13 5:14

HdH, well spotted.

Can only suppose Creche was allocated area for dogs search since that's the only other place (apart from the apartment) Maddie spent (or rather was abandoned in) most of the time during holiday.

Since we are not enlightened as to all of the areas covered by the dogs it's hard to say whether Tapas Bar was covered as well, only that Mark Harrison specified Creche as one area dogs should cover.

It is indeed bizarre. If Creche is deemed last place of independent witness, where does that leave David Payne's statement?
Could it be that DP, being family friend, is not considered by Police as independent per se.

Wonder what was the rationale behind including Creche in the dogs search when the scene of disappearance was set in the Apt by the main players?

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by HiDeHo on 15.01.13 6:04

Its been suggested that the 'creche' reference was that of the creche behind the tapas.

His recommendation was the creche to be searched but I cannot find any reference to the search being carried out...not that it would make a difference to 'last confirmed location' but could help to confirm which creche he was referring to.

It doesnt seem feasible to classify the high tea location as 'the creche' but with such major implications I would like some reference to confirm.

Mark Harrison MBE
National Search Adviser
Homicide, Missing Persons, Mass Fatality Disasters

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

This really doesnt sound like he is referring to the tapas area creche where they had high tea

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by joyce1938 on 15.01.13 10:47

this search with mark harrison ,wasnt with cadaver dogs was it

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Ribisl on 15.01.13 14:07

@HiDeHo
What makes a 'confirmed sighting' as opposed to 'unconfirmed' in this context?
My understanding would be that a confirmed sighting has to be backed up by corroborative evidence (such as creche record) or by a second independent witness.

JT's sighting is unconfirmed because nobody else saw the bundle man including GM and JW who were supposed to have been in the same area at the same time even though they didn't see her either. DP's sighting is unconfirmed because it's just his word and Kate's. When this report was written, PJ and MH probably considered the creche records to be corroborative evidence. But, like some of the researchers on this forum, they too must have concluded in the end that the creche records weren't so reliable after all.

The only reliable photographic evidence I see of Madeleine during this holiday is of her in the play area with Gerry, Sean and Lily. Philip Edmonds's photo never surfaced possibly because the blond girl was later identified as one of the ten blond toddlers at PDL at the time and not Madeleine.

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Post by Inspectorfrost on 15.01.13 15:42

The last independent sighting we know of is Cat Bakers at high tea at Tapas. Madeleine's creche was on top of the main reception, no where near the Tapas area. Why would that be the place of the last sighting? The nannies took the kids from the creche at the end of the day to eat at the Tapas area, after which the parents signed them out from there. I havent a clue why MH would recommend searching there. Pass.

I would guess MH was referring to the Tapas area as the MW creche, as the gatherings there were still part of the creche day. JMO.

I think for the last independent witness to see Madeleine, Cat Baker's first statement leaves alot to be desired.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by T4two on 15.01.13 16:02

@Inspectorfrost wrote:The last independent sighting we know of is Cat Bakers at high tea at Tapas. Madeleine's creche was on top of the main reception, no where near the Tapas area. Why would that be the place of the last sighting? The nannies took the kids from the creche at the end of the day to eat at the Tapas area, after which the parents signed them out from there. I havent a clue why MH would recommend searching there. Pass.

I would guess MH was referring to the Tapas area as the MW creche, as the gatherings there were still part of the creche day. JMO.


Perhaps as already suggested in an earlier post, Mark Harrison did not consider Catriona Baker to be a 100% reliable/independent witness. I seem to remember that she was spirited away at quite an early stage to a place only known to the McCanns and turned up later at the Rothley hotel meeting.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by monkey mind on 15.01.13 17:43

I’m sorry but the title of this thread isn't strictly accurate.

There isn’t even confirmed evidence she was in G5A . If there is can someone point me to it?

Perhaps the title of this thread would be more accurate if it read....

"The last confirmed location of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the crèche."

It’s a minor change but potentially a significant one.

I’m not sayin’, i’m just sayin’.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Guest on 15.01.13 18:54

@T4two wrote: [...]

Perhaps as already suggested in an earlier post, Mark Harrison did not consider Catriona Baker to be a 100% reliable/independent witness. I seem to remember that she was spirited away at quite an early stage to a place only known to the McCanns and turned up later at the Rothley hotel meeting.
***
IIRC Cat Baker was transferred by MW to Greece, she visited the McCanns at their home for tea some time november 2007 and went to work somewhere else as a nanny at a place "not disclosed" by the McCanns.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Inspectorfrost on 15.01.13 19:19

@T4two wrote:

Perhaps as already suggested in an earlier post, Mark Harrison did not consider Catriona Baker to be a 100% reliable/independent witness. I seem to remember that she was spirited away at quite an early stage to a place only known to the McCanns and turned up later at the Rothley hotel meeting.

Hi
According to her rogatory interview, Mark Warner moved her to a Greek MW resort on the 13th May (not within 24 hours as the Daily Mail exaggerated) which sounds about right as she was still in PT giving statements on the 10th May. The only time I have read the Mccanns wanted her location kept secret is in the Daily Mail article on her in October 07 where it was reported she was currently a live in nanny with a family after having eventually left MW.

I'm not sure why MH or anyone else in the early days would consider her not to be reliable/independent. In any case, if I am reading between the lines correctly, is there a theory here that Madeleine died at the creche? Hence the suggestion to run it over withthe dogs? If so, my brain would hurt too much trying to get around that one, with all the possible ramifications, so will pass.

big grin

I am sure both police forces knew what they were doing in any case and had reasons for each action if only to cover every possibility. In fact I think MH said at the beginning of the report that it was based on the sole possibility that Madeleine had been killed and concealed in PDL in areas already searched.

I hope they eventually get their man/men woman/women or both or discover something that might point to a woke and wondered scenario, anything.





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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by monkey mind on 15.01.13 19:22

Let’s look at a fact...

If we take the T9 out of the equation we are left with several people who tell us in all good faith that they saw Madeleine that week at one time or another.

Would that stand up in a court of law that they saw Madeleine McCann?

Absolutely not. It would be knocked down in a trice.

Why?

Because none of them actually *KNEW* Madeleine McCann.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Guest on 15.01.13 19:27

Very good point, Monkey Mind.

It's noteworthy too that there have been so few people outside the family who have commented publicly that they knew her even before May 2007.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Inspectorfrost on 15.01.13 20:00

Jean wrote:Very good point, Monkey Mind.

It's noteworthy too that there have been so few people outside the family who have commented publicly that they knew her even before May 2007.

Hi Jean. What do you mean/infer by that? From what I recall there have been loads of people who have talked about her.

Monkeymind, you asked if there was any evidence Madeleine was in flat 5a. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,as they say. Besides, what kind of evidence do you mean? If Madeleine was not in 5a, where was she after flying out to Portugal?


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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Inspectorfrost on 15.01.13 20:19

@monkey mind wrote:Let’s look at a fact...

If we take the T9 out of the equation we are left with several people who tell us in all good faith that they saw Madeleine that week at one time or another.

Would that stand up in a court of law that they saw Madeleine McCann?

Absolutely not. It would be knocked down in a trice.

Why?

Because none of them actually *KNEW* Madeleine McCann.

Surely a semi personal nursery carer for the best part of a week would remember. Its not just seeing a face or a name, its spending alot of time with them for the best part of a day every day.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by monkey mind on 15.01.13 21:04

@Inspectorfrost wrote:
Jean wrote:Very good point, Monkey Mind.

It's noteworthy too that there have been so few people outside the family who have commented publicly that they knew her even before May 2007.

Hi Jean. What do you mean/infer by that? From what I recall there have been loads of people who have talked about her.

Monkeymind, you asked if there was any evidence Madeleine was in flat 5a. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,as they say. Besides, what kind of evidence do you mean? If Madeleine was not in 5a, where was she after flying out to Portugal?

Inspectorfrost, I perfectly realise absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As for your latter point “where was she if she wasn’t in 5A?”

Did I say she was not in 5A?

No I did not. I simply pointed out that there is no independent evidence once the T9 are removed from the equation to say that Madeleine Mcann was in any of the places that any of the well intentioned people have said she was. None at all. Bearing that in mind let me point out some facts and see what questions they raise in my mind...

1. Madeleine McCann is alleged to have slept for five nights and lived, eaten and played in apartment 5A for 6 days when not at crèche.

2. No forensic evidence whatsoever was found in apartment 5A which can be identified as that of Madeleine McCann. 5 nights. 6 days. Not a single hair. 169 hairs retrieved from 5A not one belonging to Madeleine.

3. Yet hairs belonging to Russell O’brien, David Payne and Matthew Oldfield WERE indeed found in 5A, three men whose visits were at best fleeting and to a minimum.

4. In view of hairs being left by these 3 men would it be reasonable to expect to find many more from Madeleine rather than none?

5. If 3 temporary visitors to the apartment leave trace evidence, adults who are generally calm, and an energetic child leaves no trace which is more reasonable to infer, she was in there infinitely longer or for a time not exceeding that of these three men?

6. There is credible evidence that a cadaver was in more than one location in that apartment.

7. The PJ have been unable to account for neither that cadaver nor Madeleine McCann.

8. Could it therefor be reasonable to conclude there may be a possibility that cadaver odour relates to Madeleine McCann.

9. IF, that cadaver odour relates to Madeleine McCann who is still missing, and in view of the absolute lack of forensic evidence as to her presence, is it more reasonable to infer that the cadaver odour was deposited on the Thursday night or much earlier in the week?

10. If it was the end of the week why no evidence of her presence after 5 days and 6 nights?

11. If it was much earlier in the week how could all these well intentioned people be mistaken about the child Madeleine being seen here and there?

12. Clearly they were not.

13. But then we have established none of them actually *KNEW* Madeleine McCann.

14. These are just some facts and some questions they raise in my mind.


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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Lady-Heather on 15.01.13 21:42

It is my personal opinion, that Madeleine McCann did not attend creche. I realise that a child was signed in and out bearing her name, however.

Another very interesting question for me is why did the McCanns, and the other T7 parents, not pre-book a place at creche prior to their arrival, which appeared to be the norm for MW guests? How could they know or why did they take it for granted that a space would be available?

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by aiyoyo on 16.01.13 11:08

MH must have got the impression of confirmed last sighting venue from the Police.
It would appear no credence was given to the Tapas Bar sighting propounded mainly by Kate Mccanns and the Nanny.
The Police definitely know more than let on.

No matter where the last independent sighting was, even if it be the Creche, I still don't understand why the Creche was of interest to MH to use the ERVD dogs. Logic being if anything had happened to Maddie in the Creche, there wouldn't be any need for Mccanns & Co to stage the scene set in the Apt.

Despite his recommendation no one knows whether it was carried out, or if so, in which order - pre or post the Apartment search?

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