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Maddie's clothes

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Post by tigger on 12.04.12 19:58

Maddie's clothes have long intrigued me.
For a little girl who's hair is often looking pretty perfect, her clothes don't seem to live up to that image.
As Kate tells us about the 'apricot dress' which is in fact pink - which she wears in the pool photo, I wonder why the pretty dress or skirt of just a few weeks ago in Donegal wouldn't have done as well. So I will post each set of garments that puzzle me in separate posts.

We start with the pyjamas:
Dr. Roberts, 'Dormant Issues' 2011

We have long known of the pink Disney outfit Madeleine was wearing when she was taken from the apartment. Kate's washing of the top after breakfast that Thursday illustrates just how little time it took to dry. We know also that the McCanns had a duplicate set (for Amelie) with them in PdL. They were shown to UK viewers of 'Crimewatch' before being taken on a tour of the European capitals at the end of May/beginning of June. We have also been told, by Olga Craig, writing for the Sunday Telegraph (27.5.2007), that when the McCanns moved to an apartment near to the one from which Madeleine was taken they "unpacked their missing daughter's clothes...laying out her pyjamas on what would have been her bed."

Self-evidently these pyjamas were not being worn by Madeleine at the time of her disappearance. They couldn't have been or they wouldn't have come back. Equally self-evidently, for something to be unpacked it must first be packed. These pyjamas (that's two pairs so far) obviously travelled in the luggage and, since they awaited Madeleine's return, they would have been clean (would anyone welcome their lost child home with dirty pyjamas?) Hence these pyjamas were neither the recently washed pair since departed with Madeleine, nor the unwashed pair thrown hurriedly into the back of the Renault Scenic hire car at the time the McCanns moved house.

But the McCanns say the fluids probably came from Madeleine's unwashed pyjamas and sandals which were carried in the boot when the family was moving apartments.'

To have been somehow soiled with Madeleine's DNA these unwashed pyjamas must have been worn earlier in the week. They could not have been worn by Madeleine after May 3, the day when Kate McCann saw fit to wash the pink pyjama top on account of an overlooked tea stain, whilst Madeleine's previously worn and unwashed pair remained - unwashed.
unquote

3 pairs of pyjamas?

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Maddie's clothes Empty Shoes

Post by tigger on 12.04.12 20:06

The cleaner Mrs. da Silva commented on the shoes the three children wore on the Sunday morning. Trainers with little pink lights along them.

1) Kate has never mentioned these shoes and I would have thought a toddler would be over the moon with such trainers.
2) It may be that those are the trainers in the playground picture but are they the same ones in the airport bus? No decoration on the side is visible.
3) In June, when the photograph of the family in the booth was taken, each twin is wearing different trainers (different soles visible) no lights visible.

In the tennis photo she should have been wearing trainers but is wearing scuffed sandals instead.

Does that mean: that the three children Mrs. Da Silva saw, were not the three McCann children?
Does that mean that the tennis photo isn't likely to have been taken at PdL? (the tennis court itself is probably not that of OC)

I've tried to find photographs of the twins post 3/5 wearing this type of trainer but haven't seen it. Why should they in any case have two pairs of trainers each? The booth photo can at best show one of the trainers in question. As the soles are different one of them is wearing another type of trainer.

That would make the twins possibly with: two pairs of trainers each.
Plus sharing Maddie's sandals.
Weren't there only the sandals available for DNA tests? But Maddie is shown with trainers in the playground

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Post by jay2001 on 12.04.12 20:27

So why did GM have to return to UK for dna? If there were sandals, trainers, jim jams why were the sniffer dogs given a towel that could've been used by the whole family?

What happened to the clothes worn by the pool on the last day? So many unanswered questions. There must be so much info that SY have to check so they can take as long as possible imo. Just get the right answers to this 'mystery'.
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Maddie's clothes Empty Dresses

Post by tigger on 12.04.12 20:32

Dresses:

The ‘apricot coloured’ dress Kate mentions, which is in fact pink.
She looks rather young in that photo.
The expense is mentioned as are Gap and Monsoon. One might expect people with their kind of income to buy at those stores in any case.

The red christmas dress - fits Maddie perfectly and with her hairdo, she looks perfect. This is Christmas 2005 I think.

The red dress in the kitchen photos is much too large, her hair is unkempt and it seems to be a party for the twins’ first birthday. Maddie looks a little too old for that so might it be the February 2007?
But the dress is highly unsuitable for the time of year.

The shoestring strap dress in the floor photograph and the ice cream photo. This does fit - but as it happens, both poses are extremely suggestive. The strappy dress only adds to the image.

Donegal dress or skirt. This was allegedly taken less than three weeks before the PdL holiday. It’s a very pretty dress with ruffles and she is wearing a fleece top.
questions: I think both photos have Maddie’s head pasted on and the child in question is younger which is why she is almost the same size as Sean.
This dress/skirt isn’t one I’ve seen in any other photograph. Which may lend weight to the theory that that body doesn't belong to Maddie.

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Maddie's clothes Empty Holiday clothes.

Post by tigger on 12.04.12 20:37

So far we've got the poolside dress.
The pink hat. (which Amelie wears in the poolside photo) possibly a white hat although that might be Amelie's.
The pink tracksuit plus possibly another pair of pink trousers.
The shoes that she was wearing with the tracksuit, probably trainers.
The shorts and t-shirt.
Three pairs of pyjamas.
A pair of sandals.
Possibly a pair of trainers with lights on the sides.

Although this is not correct as trainers of any kind were not available for the PJ. The sandals were allegedly shared with the twins.
So we have a child on holiday with shared sandals and three pairs of pyjamas. According to her parents who should know.
From the horse's mouth so to speak.

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Post by Ribisl on 13.04.12 7:07

Interesting posts Tigger. More inconsistencies implying untruthfulness. Reminds us again the odd fact that there are so few photos made public from that week even given that all the children appear to have spent most of their holiday in the creche or taking part in some activities with their staff.

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Post by tigger on 13.04.12 7:16

As a 'control' argument, what would one expect to find in the suitcase of a four year old on holiday for a week?

One pair of pyjamas - why more? Because there were laundry facilities and washing machines there. They expected it to be warmer than it was as well.
One pair of trainers and pair of sandals.
One tracksuit for probably most of the holiday and a spare pare of trousers.
One pretty dress. (for going out for a meal with the family)..
Three or four T shirts. One with long sleeves.
Shorts. Sun hat.
Bathing suit. Underwear for each day.


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Post by PeterMac on 13.04.12 8:10

@tigger wrote:As a 'control' argument, what would one expect to find in the suitcase of a four year old on holiday for a week?
snip Underwear for each day.
Probably not for each day. Three children makes it logical to plan to do at least a mid week wash, so I would guess only 3 pairs.

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Post by tigger on 13.04.12 8:41

@PeterMac wrote:
@tigger wrote:As a 'control' argument, what would one expect to find in the suitcase of a four year old on holiday for a week?
snip Underwear for each day.
Probably not for each day. Three children makes it logical to plan to do at least a mid week wash, so I would guess only 3 pairs.

Ah yes! I've overlooked the logistics with three children. Dr. Roberts also supposes that the twins might have had two sets of pyjamas, as Amelie's Eyore pyjamas were taken on a tour of Europe, she must have had a spare and so would Sean, being twins.

It gets more complicated: two sets of trainers for the twins too, unless they bought them new ones within two months and seven sets of nightwear in total.

It was cold, the T9 were wearing fleece jackets on and off. The Donegal photo shows the children with such jackets - why, if the parents had taken fleece jackets with them, wasn't there even a cardigan for Maddie in her skimpy dress? (from the book).


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Post by russiandoll on 13.04.12 9:10

One pair of pjs not enough imo, would pack two.
washing machine there but drying outside was the way...I doubt holiday resorts go to the expense of washer dryers in apartments and anyhow haven't we seen a photo of Kate hanging the washing on a clothes horse outside in Portugal? Given spillages and the weather, whilst they expected it to be warmer it is not hot in Spring in Portugal, 2 pairs of pjs sensible . No way was it warm enough imo to dry that pj top properly in the hours between washing and getting Maddie ready for bed early evening..anyway why would you put a possibly not bone dry top on a youngster when you had another with you ? ot, but the reason ROB gave for his annoyance over the lack of a request for fresh sheets after his child had been sick...he laboured the point that there was a washing machine in his apartment...well unless it had a dryer and unless he switched it on at 10pm, he would still have needed clean sheets for his child's bed. Putting the sheets in the machine does not mean he was able to wash and dry them and make up the bed with them immediately...why did he not simply say he planned for the child to sleep elsewhere as was probably the case, with him and his partner for example?

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Post by rainbow-fairy on 13.04.12 9:59

Thank you for putting this topic up tigger - much appreciated.
I'm wondering - if anyone knows or if we have any stock controllers or the like here - but do stores keep lists of their seasonal lines?
I ask because Kate made much ado about the choosing and buying of the 'extravagant' outfit. IIRC, a 'peach' smock top from Monsoon and white, embroidered shorts from 'Gap' or vice versa...
We know when Kate does this its either a red flag or a red herring -
So.
Is there any way of checking that these clothes were in these spring ranges in these stores in 2007?

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Post by Guest on 13.04.12 10:20

To me it seems clear that, as none of the outfits claimed to have been worn by Madeleine in PDL was ever put on public display, they were never there to be displayed.

Surely if they actually existed there, photos of them would have been splashed everywhere, perhaps modelled by another child to jog people's memories.
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Post by rainbow-fairy on 13.04.12 10:44

Jean wrote:To me it seems clear that, as none of the outfits claimed to have been worn by Madeleine in PDL was ever put on public display, they were never there to be displayed.

Surely if they actually existed there, photos of them would have been splashed everywhere, perhaps modelled by another child to jog people's memories.
You know, that's a good point Jean. I think the fact is, they did not want to jog anyone's memories - yes they courted the media, but with smokescreens only - poor Madeleine. Sad

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Post by Nina on 13.04.12 15:32

There is a photograph taken on the night of the 3rd showing a pile of clothes in the McCann's bedroom wardrobe, right underneath the blue bag that they didn't own Maddie's clothes 302873 I am assuming these were dirty clothes so apart from the morning rinse of the pj top no other washing seems to have been done, or Kate didn't tell us about any.

On the 5th some clothing was sent to the OC laundry,

Quote c/p,

Processos Vol III

Pages 560 -561

Witness statement

Vera María Mestre Fernandes Arez


Date: 2007/05/08

Occupation: Laundry Worker


Place of Work: Ocean Club

She has worked at the Ocean Club for six years with the function of cleaner in the rooms and apartments of Waterside Village and for the last 4 years her function is laundry worker. Her working hours are from 09.30 to 13.00 and from 14.30 to 18.00. The laundry, her place of work, is situated in the Ocean Club Gardens.

That as laundry worker her functions are to wash, dry all the linen from the rooms and apartments (sheets, towels and clothes from some of the clients) and from the Ocean Club restaurants (towels). All the laundry work takes place in the laundry where she works with three colleagues.

That she knows about the situation that occurred in the Ocean Club since 04/05/2007 at 09.30 as she was informed by a colleague from the laundry that a child had disappeared.

That she does not know the circumstances in which the girl disappeared only having heard about it in the press and from colleagues.

That she remembers that on Saturday 05/05/2007 having washed clothing belonging to the missing girl’s family and she checked that it was children’s and adult’s clothing. This service was carried out by her colleague Silvia Cravinho. That on the next day Sunday it was her colleague Bernadete Calado who went to deliver the clothing directly to the missing girl’s apartment.


That before that no clothing from the missing girl’s family had been washed and after that date there was no other washing of clothes from the family.

That she never had any contact with the family or with the missing girl as she never leaves the laundry except to have lunch.

That she did not notice anything strange on 03/05/2007. She did not notice anything strange on the days preceding this date and does not have any information about the disappearance.

No more is said. Reads, ratifies and signs.

There is also a list somewhere of what this clothing was but I need to go and look for that yet. I am very puzzled why none of thes items were not offered for the tracker dogs, rather than a towel that anyone could have used.

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Post by Guest on 13.04.12 15:39

Maddie's clothes Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQu5D40up-cp7QV6rLfGIz0InClRlmJ5mPqxJnEtZ_wRGYXEvkv9A
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Post by Nina on 13.04.12 15:45

And never knew this. Thanks to HiDeHo's excellent blog,

http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Goncalo-Amaral-Comments-by-Topic/Government-Intervention-1-952731.html

Also on 5th May 2007, two days after the announcement of Madeleine's disappearance, the police, according to Amaral, would commit an important error: "We were busy checking all the traces that came with the Ambassador. Traces that were moreover, found to be false".

New instructions from the regional national directorate of the PJ, given after the intervention of two British diplomats – Ambassador John Buck and Consul Bill Henderson – turned the investigator's attention away from the McCanns
.

Kate and Gerry McCann, for the first and only time, went to hand in clothes to be washed in the Complex laundry, including Madeleine's clothes, which the inspectors only heard about two days later. Too late, according to Amaral.

"At the time we had not established exactly which clothes Gerry was wearing on the night of the disappearance nor which clothes were handed in to be washed on 5th May", says Gonçalo Amaral.



It was by means of the statements by various members of staff from the complex, linked to the laundry service, that the inspectors were to learn that the McCanns had their children's clothes - those of Madeleine and also those of Sean and Amélie - washed.

"That would never have happened without the intervention of Mark Warner and, in particular, of the Ambassador. They took advantage of the space we gave them, It was a mistake on our part", admits Gonçalo Amaral.


"Last Saturday (05/05/2007) I received a bag of clothes brought in by Mark Warner staff, and was told expressly that these belonged to Madeleine's family – there was adult clothing (male and female) and children's clothing... ", states one of the laundry workers.

Although the laundry worker only remembers a pink skirt belonging to Madeleine, she has no uncertainty in confirming that there were also other clothes belonging to the small British girl, which has also been confirmed to the police by other colleagues.

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Post by tigger on 13.04.12 15:46

Thanks, the little striped coat hanging up is Amelie's - she's wearing it in Donegal.

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Post by Miraflores on 13.04.12 17:16

I have always thought it would be useful if someone could date the clothes that the children we wearing. If the Pink top that Madeleine was wearing in the last photo was only released as part of the Spring range in 2007 then we would know that the photo had to date from that year.

If it's an earlier year's range - well, we can't prove anything, except that they can't have been the clothes from Monsoon and Gap which were new and a bit of an extravagance but Madeleine would have looked so good in them.
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Post by tigger on 13.04.12 17:31

@Miraflores wrote:I have always thought it would be useful if someone could date the clothes that the children we wearing. If the Pink top that Madeleine was wearing in the last photo was only released as part of the Spring range in 2007 then we would know that the photo had to date from that year.

If it's an earlier year's range - well, we can't prove anything, except that they can't have been the clothes from Monsoon and Gap which were new and a bit of an extravagance but Madeleine would have looked so good in them.

You are clever! roses

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Post by EJW on 13.04.12 17:41

@tigger wrote:As a 'control' argument, what would one expect to find in the suitcase of a four year old on holiday for a week?

One pair of pyjamas - why more? Because there were laundry facilities and washing machines there. They expected it to be warmer than it was as well.
One pair of trainers and pair of sandals.
One tracksuit for probably most of the holiday and a spare pare of trousers.
One pretty dress. (for going out for a meal with the family)..
Three or four T shirts. One with long sleeves.
Shorts. Sun hat.
Bathing suit. Underwear for each day.




Sorry Tigger, but can I just give an example of what was in my childrens suitcase when we went abroad last year. At the time my stepdaughter was 4 and my boy/girl twins were 2 (coincidentally).

They each had 5 pairs of pyjamas, one pair of trainers, pumps and sandals.

My 4 yr old had approx 4 dresses and 4 pairs of leggings, shorts for every day, 2 T-shirts for every day (14), socks for every day and 10 pairs of knickers, 1 fleece, 1 hoodie and 2 cardigans, pair of jeans and pair of tracksuit bottoms, 3 skirts, one nightie and sleeping socks, one towelling hoodie beach robe, 1 swimming costume and an-all-in one sunproof costume, 2 sunhats.

I appreciate this is rather a lot of clothes, but nothing out of the ordinary and the twins had a similar amount of clothing. I did one wash midweek. Given the liberal application of suncream and the liberal consumption of ice cream and ice lollies it wasn't unusual to change t shirts twice a day and given the warmer climate i didn't want my children to be wearing their pj's more than once (something i do anyway at home, they never wear the same pair 2 nights on the trot).

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but i would of thought there would have been far more clothing available to give the sniffer dogs than a towel, which lets face it, whilst on holiday, could have been used by everybody in the apartment. I have also, again coincidentally been in the Algarve in May and it can be very windy and chilly and the pools very cold, as they are not heated. The late afternoons and evenings require a jacket or fleece which I would have thought GM would have known about given that he was a frequent golfing visitor!Maddie's clothes 847771 One other thing, it is, imo completely ridiculous that children would share the same toothbrush and the mere suggestion that this is the case is distinctly odd, given that the parents are doctors! That two children of 2 and nearly 4 would share the same sandals is again ridiculous, unless Amelie had extremely large feet or Madeleine had extremely small feet! My own two girls have a difference of 3 shoe sizes between their feet.
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Post by tigger on 13.04.12 18:38

EJW:
We're commenting exactly on how few clothes we know about. Partly because there are next to no photographs of Maddie during that holiday.
I still think that three sets of pyjamas for one week is too much.
The sharing is highly unlikely since Amelie is petite and the girl with the tennis balls is a lot bigger. Not possible!


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Post by EJW on 13.04.12 19:36

Thank you Tigger, that was kind of my point, there would be lots of clothes for a weeks holiday abroad and very little evidence of them. The sharing of clothes is in my mind a non starter and I can't think why this was suggested by KM. The difference in sizes between children of that age is imo a big one and they would not be sharing clothes, Amelie would be buried by Madeleine's tops or trousers. However, 3 pairs of pj's imo is not enough for a weeks hol's.Maddie's clothes 847771
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Post by Nina on 13.04.12 19:46

@EJW wrote:Thank you Tigger, that was kind of my point, there would be lots of clothes for a weeks holiday abroad and very little evidence of them. The sharing of clothes is in my mind a non starter and I can't think why this was suggested by KM. The difference in sizes between children of that age is imo a big one and they would not be sharing clothes, Amelie would be buried by Madeleine's tops or trousers. However, 3 pairs of pj's imo is not enough for a weeks hol's.Maddie's clothes 847771
Without putting too fine a point on it, it is the same as saying I went on holiday with three children and took three pairs of knickers/underpants.

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Post by EJW on 13.04.12 19:53

@Nina wrote:
@EJW wrote:Thank you Tigger, that was kind of my point, there would be lots of clothes for a weeks holiday abroad and very little evidence of them. The sharing of clothes is in my mind a non starter and I can't think why this was suggested by KM. The difference in sizes between children of that age is imo a big one and they would not be sharing clothes, Amelie would be buried by Madeleine's tops or trousers. However, 3 pairs of pj's imo is not enough for a weeks hol's.Maddie's clothes 847771
Without putting too fine a point on it, it is the same as saying I went on holiday with three children and took three pairs of knickers/underpants.



Sorry? I'm not sure i understand? 3 pairs of pj's for one child for a weeks holidays is not enough? It's not enough from my experience.
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Post by Nina on 13.04.12 20:35

@EJW wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@EJW wrote:Thank you Tigger, that was kind of my point, there would be lots of clothes for a weeks holiday abroad and very little evidence of them. The sharing of clothes is in my mind a non starter and I can't think why this was suggested by KM. The difference in sizes between children of that age is imo a big one and they would not be sharing clothes, Amelie would be buried by Madeleine's tops or trousers. However, 3 pairs of pj's imo is not enough for a weeks hol's.Maddie's clothes 847771
Without putting too fine a point on it, it is the same as saying I went on holiday with three children and took three pairs of knickers/underpants.



Sorry? I'm not sure i understand? 3 pairs of pj's for one child for a weeks holidays is not enough? It's not enough from my experience.
EJW, I am of the old brigade where my children had clean clothes on through the day and clean nightclothes on through the night. So if I only took three pairs of everything I would wash every day. We on the forum will have to agree to disagree on this, some think one pair of pjs is ok for a week, some think clean on every night. We are different, not correct not wrong just different. However I would hazzard a guess that we all to a man/woman wouldn't go out and leave three chuildren to whatever befell them, if in fact this did happen.

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