The McCanns family trip to Sagres 30th April

by Guest 22.10.10 16:00

Very strange we have hardly any photo's of Madeleine on that holiday. I first thought ah well the children were in the creche every am and pm of the holiday, so there would hardly be much time to take any. Then I remembered the family day out in Sagres, and why were there no photo's from that trip? Isn't that what you would do, it's a lovely little place, so I can't imagine why we have no pictures!!

But then I thought, hang on Madeleine was signed into the Creche on April 30th am and pm, but she is signed out 15 mins after she is signed in pm. Even if leaving the creche at 3.30 pm, by the time they got the stuff together, and headed off it must have been nearly 16.00 hrs pm. Hardly any time to travel the 16 or so miles there, and enjoy the day, which was nearly over. Then of course there was the half hour or more journey back, which if the children were put to bed at 7.30 every night hardly left any time at all to spend there.

Why would Madeleine suddenly be signed out after 15 mins that day?? If you were planning a trip like this you would surely have made your mind up by the morning, and not have signed her in at all that day, or at least not in the afternoon??

So how could she have been in Sagres, and at the creche at the same time??

GM never mentions this trip to Sagres as far as I can see. From his interview May 7th [snipped]

----- In the following days they always took breakfast at home, shopping the day before, generally maintaining the daily routine described above. When the children were at creche they had tennis classes, KATE at 09h15, he an hour later, from Monday to Thursday.
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Here's thelink to the Sagres trip
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And here's link for creche records April 30th same day as the Sagres trip
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Does anyone know of any of the Tapas 9 mentioning this trip??

by Guest 22.10.10 16:01

candyfloss wrote:Very strange we have hardly any photo's of Madeleine on that holiday. I first thought ah well the children were in the creche every am and pm of the holiday, so there would hardly be much time to take any. Then I remembered the family day out in Sagres, and why were there no photo's from that trip? Isn't that what you would do, it's a lovely little place, so I can't imagine why we have no pictures!!

But then I thought, hang on Madeleine was signed into the Creche on April 30th am and pm, but she is signed out 15 mins after she is signed in pm. Even if leaving the creche at 3.30 pm, by the time they got the stuff together, and headed off it must have been nearly 16.00 hrs pm. Hardly any time to travel the 16 or so miles there, and enjoy the day, which was nearly over. Then of course there was the half hour or more journey back, which if the children were put to bed at 7.30 every night hardly left any time at all to spend there.

Why would Madeleine suddenly be signed out after 15 mins that day?? If you were planning a trip like this you would surely have made your mind up by the morning, and not have signed her in at all that day, or at least not in the afternoon??

So how could she have been in Sagres, and at the creche at the same time??

GM never mentions this trip to Sagres as far as I can see. From his interview May 7th [snipped]

----- In the following days they always took breakfast at home, shopping the day before, generally maintaining the daily routine described above. When the children were at creche they had tennis classes, KATE at 09h15, he an hour later, from Monday to Thursday.
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Here's thelink to the Sagres trip
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And here's link for creche records April 30th same day as the Sagres trip
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Does anyone know of any of the Tapas 9 mentioning this trip??

ETA How did they ge to Sagres. They didn't have a car we are told, did they go by bus or taxi??

by russiandoll 09.10.11 15:07

Kate gives a reasonably full run down of activities from arrival 28th April until evening May 2nd [ she then devotes an entire chapter to May 3rd].

If the routine of their days in PDL had been disturbed by a trip out of the resort, why on earth does she not record this trip in her book? I have just posted in the tapas phone autopsy section a comment on the lack of info about 30 April as a memeber asked what Kate had said in her book about the activities on this particular date.
She says nothing at all about anything until evening when she briefly describes a trip to the supermarket for essentials then mentions tapas evening meal.
NO RECORD AT ALL OF WHAT SHE HER HUSBAND COMPANIONS OR CHILDREN DID DAYTIME 30 APRIL.

by **sharonl** 09.10.11 18:39

Did they really go to Sagres? Is this whole story nothing more than a red herring? Where were they really?

Why would a shopkeeper remember seeing the McCanns above all other visitors to the area? Where were the twins?

Gerry with a baby buggy - so they did have a buggy then?

The following extract from that blog sounds very McCann media

A shopkeeper in the town said she remembered them well. She said: "On the road into the town, Kate was holding Madeleine's hand. On the other side of the road was Gerry with a baby buggy. "I remember thinking it odd to see him with a baby buggy because I thought the little girl was too old to need one." She said it was the same day as the stranger taking photographs, although other witnesses said that happened two days later.

Either way, it seems possible that Madeleine's abductor was watching the beach at Sagres for some time.

Holidaymaker Nuno Lourenco, who is from Sagres but now lives in Germany, was sitting at a cafe with his German wife and their two children when he noticed a man taking pictures of his four-year-old blonde daughter and other children. He became so concerned at his behaviour that he took his own picture of the man - who was balding with long hair at the back - on his mobile phone.

by Guest 09.10.11 18:59

the press as early as 12 May 2007 were reporting that the family were in Sagres on 30 April:

Police were last night investigating whether Madeleine McCann was watched by her abductors three days before she was snatched.
Detectives have discovered that the McCann family went to the town of Sagres, on the southern tip of the Algarve, on April 30

A witness, Nuno Lorenco, said he saw a man following his family down the beach and taking "discreet" photographs. He said he challenged the man, who fled with a blonde woman in a Renault Clio.
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This could be the family trying to attach themselves to any suspicious activity in order to give the abduction theory more weight...

Only trouble with Sagres is, that the witness who saw someone following his family took the numberplate for the Renault Clio.
this led police to a couple who were staying in an apartment in Burgau
The apartment block in Burgau have links to Robert Murat - his father's company built the block and are rumoured to manage the block.
forensics from the apartment in Burgau were taken and hairs from Robert Murat and Jane Tanner, or from their maternal line, were found in the apartment..

I find the activities around 30 April intriguing and the pj files for this day contain some gaps in terms of phone records, creche records etc...

by TheTruthWillOut 09.10.11 19:31

Stewie wrote:

the press as early as 12 May 2007 were reporting that the family were in Sagres on 30 April:

Police were last night investigating whether Madeleine McCann was watched by her abductors three days before she was snatched.
Detectives have discovered that the McCann family went to the town of Sagres, on the southern tip of the Algarve, on April 30

A witness, Nuno Lorenco, said he saw a man following his family down the beach and taking "discreet" photographs. He said he challenged the man, who fled with a blonde woman in a Renault Clio.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This could be the family trying to attach themselves to any suspicious activity in order to give the abduction theory more weight...

Only trouble with Sagres is, that the witness who saw someone following his family took the numberplate for the Renault Clio.
this led police to a couple who were staying in an apartment in Burgau
The apartment block in Burgau have links to Robert Murat - his father's company built the block and are rumoured to manage the block.
forensics from the apartment in Burgau were taken and hairs from Robert Murat and Jane Tanner, or from their maternal line, were found in the apartment..

I find the activities around 30 April intriguing and the pj files for this day contain some gaps in terms of phone records, creche records etc...

The above in bold really troubles me because if the PJ have held back evidence from the 29th/30th April, why haven't they used it?

I can't think of a valid reason to do so. confused

I assume with the review team visiting Portugal in August, the PJ will have handed over anything they had on the 29/30th of April? *crosses fingers*

by Guest 09.10.11 19:56

TheTruthWillOut wrote:
Stewie wrote:

the press as early as 12 May 2007 were reporting that the family were in Sagres on 30 April:

Police were last night investigating whether Madeleine McCann was watched by her abductors three days before she was snatched.
Detectives have discovered that the McCann family went to the town of Sagres, on the southern tip of the Algarve, on April 30

A witness, Nuno Lorenco, said he saw a man following his family down the beach and taking "discreet" photographs. He said he challenged the man, who fled with a blonde woman in a Renault Clio.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This could be the family trying to attach themselves to any suspicious activity in order to give the abduction theory more weight...

Only trouble with Sagres is, that the witness who saw someone following his family took the numberplate for the Renault Clio.
this led police to a couple who were staying in an apartment in Burgau
The apartment block in Burgau have links to Robert Murat - his father's company built the block and are rumoured to manage the block.
forensics from the apartment in Burgau were taken and hairs from Robert Murat and Jane Tanner, or from their maternal line, were found in the apartment..

I find the activities around 30 April intriguing and the pj files for this day contain some gaps in terms of phone records, creche records etc...

The above in bold really troubles me because if the PJ have held back evidence from the 29th/30th April, why haven't they used it?

I can't think of a valid reason to do so.

I assume with the review team visiting Portugal in August, the PJ will have handed over anything they had on the 29/30th of April? *crosses fingers*

Just wanted to verify as my memory can play tricks on me...

Think Stella summed up whatwas missing elsewhere but can't find it now..
Not in pj files:

Tapas bookings sheet - missing for 29 + 30 april
Daily run report 30 April
Tennis booking sheet - 30 april
KM and GM phone records 30 april and 1 may

There are creche sheets for 30 april - this is the day Madeleine is signed in and out within 15 mins in the afternoon

Records may not be in the files as they don't exist or may have been withheld by the pj.... I would hope that if there they were withheld it was because they contained crucial info and would jeopardise future enquiries if made public to all.....

by **tigger** 09.10.11 20:25

I think, based on the phone pings, that the PJ were already aware that during that week some of the Tapas had the use of a car.

I've often thought that the timing of the release of the photographs such as the blue eyeshadow was by way of a message. If that photographs was taken on the 29th/30th in Burgau, I'm sure that the PJ will be interested.
Why does nothing about Sagres appear in the book?

I once saw something about a meeting of all the family in Sagres, just before K and G went off to Marocco. I'll try and find it.

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this is also link for the above Sagres trip.

by TheTruthWillOut 09.10.11 20:32

Thanks Stewie.

If that list of "missing" records is correct I hope the PJ do have them. Otherwise it looks like someone was specifically trying to get rid of records for the 29/30th April.

If the PJ don't have them, I can't believe they innocently went missing.............

by russiandoll 09.10.11 23:06

The only trip to Sagres referred to by the family was Gerry in a blog.....a trip made by the family after Maddie disappeared.
I think it is interesting that there is nothing about any daytime activities in the book re 30 April when every other day of the holiday is discussed in some detail, even though things happened that were part of a routine.
2 May mentioned as the tennis court photo is brought to attention of reader.
1 May mentioned and the trivia of repair to washing machine and main bedroom shutters mentioned.
part of an agenda imo.......shutters have to be established in reader's mind for what is to come on 3 May. And Kate mentions leaving workmen in 5a to carry out the repair........a further instance of accessibility of 5a for ocean club staff.she mentions also at this stage of the book that visitors and workers who had access to tapas are also could read the note in restaurant book that tables reserved for tapas group due to children being left unattended and therefore they were vulnerable.
Everything Kate writes is for a reason as is what she omits..... and 30th April is not described at all apart from a brief mundane reference to evening shopping followed by eating.
Every other day is described in some detail no matter how predictable it is for her or her readers....so why not this one?
here is her diary from McCann files :

Monday 30.04.2007

Breakfast apartment? apartment cleaning

Kids clubs:

Tennis 09.15-10.15 K

G 10.15-11.15

*? washing machine / blinds

Lunch - our apartment then → balcony F and Dave

Kids club?? beach

+ / - 16.00 K run 25 min.

16:30 Tennis lessons

High tea

18:30? tennis night for women

Recreational area

Afternoon: K and J Supermarket

Rest. - everyone[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Guest 10.10.11 9:27

Missing on the 29th April
Tennis list
Tapas list
Jellyfish crèche list for the morning session
OC daily run report

Missing on the 30th April
Tennis list
Tapas list
OC daily run report

Missing on the 2nd May
OC daily run report

Missing on the 3rd May
Jellyfish crèche list for the morning session

As you can see, the 29th was a very important day and I think I know why. winkwink

by Bebootje 10.10.11 10:06

So, did they or didn't they went to Sagres.
Where al those papers wrong in mentioning this visit?
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If not, why isn't this visit mentioned in Kates book?
If the sighting of Nuno Lorenco who spotted Kate Gerry and Madeleine is genuine, why weren't the twins with them?

by **Nina** 10.10.11 10:20

Were the twins in their creche that afternoon, or did they take just Madeleine, and why a buggy, she was supposed to be a live wire not a nearly four year old requiring to be pushed about.

Stella your list of missing info is very interesting, not just one item on one day but a number on a run of days. I do hope that this is on hold for further investigation.

by **PeterMac** 10.10.11 10:29

Nina wrote:Were the twins in their creche that afternoon, or did they take just Madeleine, and why a buggy, she was supposed to be a live wire not a nearly four year old requiring to be pushed about.
Stella your list of missing info is very interesting, not just one item on one day but a number on a run of days. I do hope that this is on hold for further investigation.

But they didn't have a buggy. They said so. That is why the Millennium was too far for them.

by **Nina** 10.10.11 11:04

PeterMac wrote:
Nina wrote:Were the twins in their creche that afternoon, or did they take just Madeleine, and why a buggy, she was supposed to be a live wire not a nearly four year old requiring to be pushed about.
Stella your list of missing info is very interesting, not just one item on one day but a number on a run of days. I do hope that this is on hold for further investigation.
But they didn't have a buggy. They said so. That is why the Millennium was too far for them.

Yes indeed so they went to the tapas bar less far, almost like at the bottom of their garden so why didn't they take the children there? They had no intention of taking their children anywhere with them day or night imo.

by russiandoll 10.10.11 11:52

Kate states in the book that they borrowed a double buggy May 1st to make a trip to the beach easier for the twins.

I also wonder about the Sagres sighting on 30th April. I can understand that after the media saturation a person recalled seeing the McCanns and Madeleine when her face and her parents' faces were all over the place , but the sighting seemed absolutely definite. Were there ever any remarks made by this witness about why the family were so memorable that he remembered them so easily? I recall the puzzlement over the buggy for a girl of her age but nothing else really.

It is not plausible that the one day when you deviate from your routine would be the one day you dont write anything about in a chapter devoted to a holiday! You dont mention a trip to a town like Sagres? I dont buy it.
So did it happen and like much of what Kate wants not to highlight, it is not merely glossed over, it is whooshed from memory?
If they did not go there, what was going on 30th April that needed to be whooshed from this chapter in which every day of the holiday was described to some extent?

by russiandoll 10.10.11 12:02

I see from creche attendance sheet for this date that Madeleine was absent for approx 3 hrs between am and pm attendance. Could this account for the trip to Sagres as it appears unlikely they would have gone on that trip after 3.30 when she was signed out after only 15 mins attendance at creche in the afternoon?

Also I can only find media reference to that Sagres trip 30 April...has anyone seen it referred to other than in a newspaper article?

by **tigger** 10.10.11 12:10

tigger wrote:I think, based on the phone pings, that the PJ were already aware that during that week some of the Tapas had the use of a car.

I've often thought that the timing of the release of the photographs such as the blue eyeshadow was by way of a message. If that photographs was taken on the 29th/30th in Burgau, I'm sure that the PJ will be interested.
Why does nothing about Sagres appear in the book?

I once saw something about a meeting of all the family in Sagres, just before K and G went off to Marocco. I'll try and find it.

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this is also link for the above Sagres trip.

I've just quoted myself, because I wondered that the shopkeeper in Sagres only saw Maddie and an empty buggy. Were the twins in the creche? They could always be collected by someone else of course.
If later that day photographs were taken on the balcony of the Burgau apartment, it's unlikely that the twins would have come on the trip.
Was the buggy because Maddy definitely looks drugged on the blue eyeshadow photograph?

The above link is interesting re the 5 weeks that John McCann mentions. Brain and mouth not always in sync.

by russiandoll 10.10.11 12:39

if I am reading them correctly[ bug eyed as doing a lot of cross referencing here and with pj files so sorry if I am mistaken].....

a.m.
Sean and Amelie signed in : 9.20 out 12.15
Madeleine signed in : 9.30 out 12.10

p.m.

Sean and Amelie signed in: 15.25 out 17.20
Madeleine signed in: 15.15 out 15.30

sorry if this has been posted before, but twins cared for in creche for best part of 2 hours when Madeleine was presumably with her parents and/or adult companions.
at risk of being boring, no confirmation of sagres trip 30 April, not in any witness statements as far as I can see or in book. But nothing about day's events 30 April in book...what on earth was happening in these 2 unaccounted for hours on april 30th? If I have missed this debate as I am new to the forum, excuse this post but I find these 2 unaccounted for hours and the silence in the book over the entire day troubling, especially as Kate comments in her book that she has her diary to refer to and ther is indeed a diary entry on mccann files for this date.. yet it's the only day she keeps stumm about !! This is a book about her missing daughter, is she and her husband decided to do something special with her and leave twins in creche....surely to God she would have written with love and tenderness about this in her book ??

something very very wrong here

by russiandoll 10.10.11 12:45

tigger... the twins were signed out 17.20 by Kate acc to pj files.
is 2 hours enough for a return trip to sagres and a look around?
there were 3 hours btw am and pm creche sign -ins for all 3 I think.
Kates diary makes no mention of a trip anywhere out of PDL they seem to have stayed at ocean club all day[ will check].
the most significant thing to me is the silence about that day in her book.
any suggestions as to why and what might have been happening? I am trying to be objective and rational.
I am not convinced at all they went to sagres.but how did the media get hold of this idea? was it planted ?

by **tigger** 10.10.11 14:51

russiandoll wrote:tigger... the twins were signed out 17.20 by Kate acc to pj files.
is 2 hours enough for a return trip to sagres and a look around?
there were 3 hours btw am and pm creche sign -ins for all 3 I think.
Kates diary makes no mention of a trip anywhere out of PDL they seem to have stayed at ocean club all day[ will check].
the most significant thing to me is the silence about that day in her book.
any suggestions as to why and what might have been happening? I am trying to be objective and rational.
I am not convinced at all they went to sagres.but how did the media get hold of this idea? was it planted ?

Have a look at the link on Sagres and John McCann in an earlier post here.
Then also keep in mind the PJ seem to have held back some evidence relating to that day. I did read that on the bases of the phone pings the PJ were sure that there was a car available during that week.
Why would the whole family have this 'meeting - picnic' for which quite a few people seem to have flown out? I'm not well up in the rules of the Catholic faith, but a sort of memorial meeting, four or five weeks after she died? It's worth keeping all these loose puzzle pieces in mind.

by Guest 10.10.11 17:53

EDIT - Ignore this post , it was more than one link in the last one, and one of them worked and one didnt:) My mistake :)

Sorry if someone already pointet out, but the last link for the creche records is not working or the page is gone..

candyfloss wrote:

And here's link for creche records April 30th same day as the Sagres trip
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Does anyone know of any of the Tapas 9 mentioning this trip??

by Guest 10.10.11 17:59

Who signed Madeleine in and out the last time on 30 April? Defently not Gerry as handwritings are very different. And it was a Mccann so it had to be Kate then,
But in her book she makes a big point out of the fact she never called her self Mccann, but Healy. And that it was first after the abductioon the media gave her the name Kate Mccann. So if that is true, then why did she signe the creche record with Kate Mccann instead of Kate Healy?

by Guest 11.10.11 10:23

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by Guest 11.10.11 10:28

Moa wrote:Who signed Madeleine in and out the last time on 30 April?
Defently not Gerry as handwritings are very different. And it was a Mccann so it had to be Kate then

The handwriting is consistent with Gerry's style and to assume, in your opinion, that if it is not Gerry it must be Kate, would suggest that you have not fully researched either of their handwriting styles properly.

by Guest 11.10.11 11:01

Stella wrote:
Moa wrote:Who signed Madeleine in and out the last time on 30 April?
Defently not Gerry as handwritings are very different. And it was a Mccann so it had to be Kate then
The handwriting is consistent with Gerry's style and to assume, in your opinion, that if it is not Gerry it must be Kate, would suggest that you have not fully researched either of their handwriting styles properly.

That might be true, I only looked on the two writings on this spesific creche record, and I dont think the two signings that day look like the same handwriting. ( I have not study their writings on other forms etc) And im sure its a K and not a G on the last signeout ?
My point was only if it was Kate on the last one, why write Mccann and not Healy...? That would lead me to believe that either Gerry or Kate did this signeout.
If I understand your post correctly your oppinion is that Gerry where signing both times that day? If thats correct it is even more questionable why he then wrote Kates name and not his own on the signout ?
There I got myself confused again....

by Guest 11.10.11 12:48

Moa wrote:
My point was only if it was Kate on the last one, why write Mccann and not Healy...? That would lead me to believe that either Gerry or Kate did this signeout.

Kate must have used both names back in the UK, a lot more frequently than people believe and what's wrong with that? Healey for her GP work, as she was known as Dr Healey and McCann for the family and children's school, as Mrs McCann, the Mother of Madeleine, Sean and Amelie. Quite why Kate made the comment she did, is beyond me. She was born a Healey, she married and became a McCann. I would think that anyone who uses two names, would often get confused with writing their name, especially under stress and not thinking properly. Women often sign a cheque with their old name, when it is issued in their new name and cheques often get returned to the signee. It's one of those things.

by Miraflores 11.10.11 13:12

Kate must have used both names back in the UK, a lot more frequently
than people believe and what's wrong with that?
Nothing - lots of women do this.
Healey for her GP
work, as she was known as Dr Healey and McCann for the family and
children's school, as Mrs McCann, the Mother of Madeleine, Sean and
Amelie. Quite why Kate made the comment she did, is beyond me. She was
born a Healey, she married and became a McCann. The only problem is that she quite categorically states in her book that she didn't change her name - Healey was who she was, and she only became McCann when the Press started calling her that.

by russiandoll 11.10.11 14:48

Stella your reply confused me so bear with me and please assist as I am going through creche sheets and find them v interesting.
The am and pm are both on 1 sheet for Maddie's group.looking at what you posted it appears that a different person signed Maddie in and out am and pm sessions.....can you please clarify what point you were making to Moa? I read it as Gerry am and Kate pm.
thank you !

I only posted my own thoughts on 30th april in this area of the forum because of the date....... am not sure there was a trip to Sagres as reported in some newspapers [curious how they got the story].
What has grasped me about this date is total silence from Kate about that day's events.
No mention in the book about the trip to Sagres which is documented elsewhere and which I believe was shortly before Morocco trip.[will check but book jumps from 7-10th June as far as I can recall ]

What concerns me is the notable change in routine on 30th April, and on that day Maddie was out of creche for a couple of hours when twins were attending theirs. that and the bizarre 15 min attendance.

Nothing strange about a child being taken out of creche by a parent, it is a holiday after all and there are things to do.
Madeleine was presumably under the supervision of an adult after 3.30 p.m....are there any independent witnesses to Maddie being around and about anywhere after 3.30 p.m.? [ apart from the sole shopkeeper sighting in Sagres?]
Kate's diary suggests family around ocean club area all day.

am still cross-referencing trying to get an idea of movmements...its quite laborious so will be grateful for any pointers.

by russiandoll 11.10.11 14:52

I agree, nothing surprising in carrying on maiden name for professional use after marriage and I am not surprised to see family name in creche records....[ although to i.d. her via passport used for holiday staff at MW would have her officially own as Healy maybe?]
anyhow for creche and other MW staff logical shed use family name McCann.
Only surprise is I recall seeing Healy on the creche sheets as well.....and she makes such a huge deal of it in her book.......as if name change signifies the new chapter of her life since her daughter disappeared.
the use of Healy in the creche records really puzzled me.