Re: The McCanns family trip to Sagres 30th April

by jd 16.09.12 13:20

The Sagres article that was in the Express on 11th May 2007 says "Kate and Gerry McCann were driven at speed from their holiday apartment to a police station in Portimao to help officers examine the tapes after Mrs McCann again went to the local church to pray for her daughter."

Was this the car ride kate mccann complains about later in her bewk that the PJ were driving too fast?

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by jd 16.09.12 13:23

In the Sun article by John Askill, they appear to be the only ones who add to the story "The dad, Numo Lourenco, says Maddie was one of the tots snapped."

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by jd 16.09.12 13:26

On Pamalam's Guest Book page 10:

Date: 3/9/2009, 9:49 am, GMT +1
Name: Nuno De Jesus
Email: dej*s*s@********.de
Location: gremani
Number: 124
Thanks for your good work

Nuno Lourenco

Reply written by Pamalam at 3/9/2009, 9:52 am, GMT

Hi Nuno
Many thanks for your message

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by mrcibubur 19.09.12 6:57

Thanks for those who responded to my earlier posting. Forgive me if I am still confused.

Nuno Lorenco comes across as credible and I would tend to think he might be mistaken but he was clearly in Sagres on the afternoon of 30th April and saw people taking photos of young children (including his own?) which obviously aroused his suspicions. I am not sure that I have understood this part.

Who took photos of who? Lorenco of what we now understand to be the Polish couple taking photos themselves of children who were not their own? or just a photo of the blonde woman? Details of the Vehicle Renault Clio led Police to an Apartment in Burgau. The fact that the Building might have been owned by Robert Murats UNCLE is surely irrelevant - isnt it?

As for the McCanns, surely it is just a simple case of a child throwing a tantrum or something like that and a parent collecting the child 15 minutes after signing in and taking the child (Madeleine) back to the Apartment. The Twins were in the Creche. Why on earth would the McCanns have gone to Sagres on that day and at that time without all their children? Kate McCann makes no reference to Sagres in her book and I can only conclude, subject to what will obviously be gone into at a later date on Inquiry or Case re-opening, that the McCanns never left Praia de la Luz between 3.30pm and 5.20pm on that afternoon of 30th April.

is there any reference to the children having their 'high tea' on that afternoon?

There has been reference in the 'reporting' to a shopkeeper but this is totally unsubstantiated for want of a witness statement.

I think the Post response is correct that the events as we might understand them on 30th April at Sagres have been used to 'beef up' the idea of suspicions for child abduction. Oddly, in my view, Kate McCann makes no reference to this whatsoever in her book (the Seventh Witness if we can be bold and say that) but she does credence to Carole Trammer Fenn, niece of Pamela, who sighted a man leaving the back entrance of 5B between 4pm and 5pm on the afternoon of 3rd May.

I have yet to understand Robert Murats haste in returning to Portugal but I can comprehend that Jennifer Murat may well have summoned her Son to return to Portugal late into the night of 30th April, that it was she who collected Robert on the morning of Tuesday 1st April (the public holiday) and that her movements between 7.30pm and 10pm in regard to buying a few groceries at the local supermarket, have not been fully explained. Furthermore, Luz is a small place, a thousand people live there if i read correctly. Is is not inconceivable that Jennifer Murat and Pamela Fenn could or would have known each other, if long term residents there. I am not suggesting that they actually did and that it has any relevance to the disappearance of Madeleine but is is a point to consider when the chips are down and the McCanns needed to contact someone urgently between 7.15pm and 8.30pm to act as a go between in the removal and concealment of the dead body of Madeleine.

by Guest 01.11.13 17:35

Today, friday Nov 1st, travelling in Portugal, I chanced upon two Dutch senior citizen couples from the Algarve. Upper middle class.

After a while, I asked them for their opinion on the Maddie affair.

Without prompting they told me:

One of the Dutch couples had run into the McCann couple at a shopping centre or mall in Guia, while they were paying for their purchases at the Sara (?) shop.
The McCs were in the company of a number of people, speaking with each other in English.
They were pushing a twin buggy, with twin children, a boy and a girl inside.

This had happened days before Maddie was reported missing.
When they saw the english-speaking couple on TV, they immediately recognised them as the couple with the twins in the buggy from the shopping mall.

They were surprised to learn the missing child was another child of theirs, as they had only seen the toddlers in the twin buggy, and no sign of a third child.

This had happened in the afternoon in the town/village of Guia in the Algarve.

The Dutch who told me this had considered going to the police with this information, buth they had thought that it would not make a difference one way or the other.

All of them figured the child would be long gone (dead)

In fact, the other couple had heard so from someone who came to work at their place in the morning of the 4th of May, saying that the parents were involved.

Pretty early, isn´t it?

by Sockpuppet 01.11.13 17:38

Portia wrote:Today, friday Nov 1st, travelling in Portugal, I chanced upon two Dutch senior citizen couples from the Algarve. Upper middle class.

After a while, I asked them for their opinion on the Maddie affair.

Without prompting they told me:

One of the Dutch couples had run into the McCann couple at a shopping centre or mall in Guia, while they were paying for their purchases at the Sara (?) shop.
The McCs were in the company of a number of people, speaking with each other in English.
They were pushing a twin buggy, with twin children, a boy and a girl inside.

This had happened days before Maddie was reported missing.
When they saw the english-speaking couple on TV, they immediately recognised them as the couple with the twins in the buggy from the shopping mall.

They were surprised to learn the missing child was another child of theirs, as they had only seen the toddlers in the twin buggy, and no sign of a third child.

This had happened in the afternoon in the town/village of Guia in the Algarve.

The Dutch who told me this had considered going to the police with this information, buth they had thought that it would not make a difference one way or the other.

All of them figured the child would be long gone (dead)

In fact, the other couple had heard so from someone who came to work at their place in the morning of the 4th of May, saying that the parents were involved.

Pretty early, isn´t it?

And they have still not spoken to the police?

by Guest 01.11.13 17:42

Sockpuppet wrote:
Portia wrote:Today, friday Nov 1st, travelling in Portugal, I chanced upon two Dutch senior citizen couples from the Algarve. Upper middle class.

After a while, I asked them for their opinion on the Maddie affair.

Without prompting they told me:

One of the Dutch couples had run into the McCann couple at a shopping centre or mall in Guia, while they were paying for their purchases at the Sara (?) shop.
The McCs were in the company of a number of people, speaking with each other in English.
They were pushing a twin buggy, with twin children, a boy and a girl inside.

This had happened days before Maddie was reported missing.
When they saw the english-speaking couple on TV, they immediately recognised them as the couple with the twins in the buggy from the shopping mall.

They were surprised to learn the missing child was another child of theirs, as they had only seen the toddlers in the twin buggy, and no sign of a third child.

This had happened in the afternoon in the town/village of Guia in the Algarve.

The Dutch who told me this had considered going to the police with this information, buth they had thought that it would not make a difference one way or the other.

All of them figured the child would be long gone (dead)

In fact, the other couple had heard so from someone who came to work at their place in the morning of the 4th of May, saying that the parents were involved.

Pretty early, isn´t it?
And they have still not spoken to the police?

No

Guia is on the N 125, to the east of Pdl and Portimao, near a famous golf course and in the direction of the Spanish border (Huelva)

by **tigger** 01.11.13 18:26

To go to Sagres they had to have the use of a car.

There's also the waiter at Zaival beach who saw them allegedly at Easter.

So in Guia they were near a famous golf course. Gerry loves golf, went for a couple of trips to Portugal just for the golf.

hmmm. thinking

by Guest 01.11.13 19:25

Portia wrote:
Sockpuppet wrote:
Portia wrote:Today, friday Nov 1st, travelling in Portugal, I chanced upon two Dutch senior citizen couples from the Algarve. Upper middle class.

After a while, I asked them for their opinion on the Maddie affair.

Without prompting they told me:

One of the Dutch couples had run into the McCann couple at a shopping centre or mall in Guia, while they were paying for their purchases at the Sara (?) shop.
The McCs were in the company of a number of people, speaking with each other in English.
They were pushing a twin buggy, with twin children, a boy and a girl inside.

This had happened days before Maddie was reported missing.
When they saw the english-speaking couple on TV, they immediately recognised them as the couple with the twins in the buggy from the shopping mall.

They were surprised to learn the missing child was another child of theirs, as they had only seen the toddlers in the twin buggy, and no sign of a third child.

This had happened in the afternoon in the town/village of Guia in the Algarve.

The Dutch who told me this had considered going to the police with this information, buth they had thought that it would not make a difference one way or the other.

All of them figured the child would be long gone (dead)

In fact, the other couple had heard so from someone who came to work at their place in the morning of the 4th of May, saying that the parents were involved.

Pretty early, isn´t it?
And they have still not spoken to the police?
No

Guia is on the N 125, to the east of Pdl and Portimao, near a famous golf course and in the direction of the Spanish border (Huelva)

In the Netherlands, the case is just a side-line; nobody cares very much and, like I said, these two couples were convinced little Maddie is dead and nothing could bring her back.

They were nonplussed -puzzled- hearing about the existence of this forum and other fora, and the number of people who are unraveling every bit of info we are being fed on a day to day basis.

The way they told me -conversationally- was: 'Ja, die zijn we nog tegengekomen, weet je nog, met die twee kinderen in zo'n dubbel kinderwagentje, zo'n buggy; dat was toen in Guia, in dat winkelcentrum, daar stonden ze toen hun boodschappen bij Sara af te rekenen met een stel andere mensen' translating as: yeah, we ran into them, remember, with those two kids in a double buggy; it was in Guia, it was, in that shopping centre, they were there at the till paying for their purchases at Saras', and they were there in the company of some other people'

I told them this was new information, as there are no records of any visit to the east with or without Maddie previous to her disappearance; only to the west, to Sagres.

It might explain the trip to Huelva, all things considered: the poor child was left somewhere to the east, along the N 125, and her resting place was checked on the Huelva trip. Who knows? God only knows.

This whole case is getting more far fetched by the day

by Guest 01.11.13 21:47

Wat een verhaal.
What a story.
They should at least tell the police ...

by joyce1938 01.11.13 22:27

Wasn't there a day that one of the other couples took mad to give the parents a break ,so they may have gone out with just the babies?joyce1938

by Guest 01.11.13 22:34

If I remember correctly, that sounds like the holiday in 2005 with the Gaspars, the Paynes and others.

Madeleine was left with the Paynes for the day, I think.

by joyce1938 02.11.13 10:21

I just recall which holiday that took place ,you may be right,thanks for reply joyce1938

by Guest 02.11.13 17:40

Châtelaine wrote:Wat een verhaal.
What a story.
They should at least tell the police ...

I agree, told them so

Checked on local (Coimbra) mall today at the Zara, not Sara, outlet: according to staff there is no Zara at Guia, the closest is in Faro.
They do operate ATMs, not just cash
Upmarket fashion store

Just shows you have to do your homework first and only then put your info on the forum.

Blooper, sorry!

by Guest 02.11.13 17:52

Don't apologise, Portia.
Oh, and Zara, yes, I know them well. Bought my all-time-favourite shoulder bag there in Cannes some 10-years-ago and it's still "alive" and being admired. The best-ever I bought was a Chanel. Unfortunately my dogs at the time had good taste too and ate it ... censored

by juliet 02.11.13 18:52

Portia, I wonder which day the couple saw the mccanns. The twins were said to be in the creche all the time - and of course they "had no buggy".

by Guest 02.11.13 19:00

juliet wrote:Portia, I wonder which day the couple saw the mccanns. The twins were said to be in the creche all the time - and of course they "had no buggy".

They literally said: 'een paar dagen voordat dat kind verdween', i.e. a couple of days before the child (=Maddie) went missing

So not: the day before the child went missing; making that at least two days

But, seeing that there is no Zara shop at Guia (according to the Zara staff at Coimbra today) let's tread very cautiously here.
If they were wrong about the shop Sara/Zara, they may have been wrong on the location in Guia.

Though they were both adamant and clear in repeatedly naming the place Guia

by juliet 02.11.13 19:05

Portia, it is intriguing for sure.

by sami 02.11.13 19:09

Portia wrote:
juliet wrote:Portia, I wonder which day the couple saw the mccanns. The twins were said to be in the creche all the time - and of course they "had no buggy".
They literally said: 'een paar dagen voordat dat kind verdween', i.e. a couple of days before the child (=Maddie) went missing

So not: the day before the child went missing; making that at least two days

But, seeing that there is no Zara shop at Guia (according to the Zara staff at Coimbra today) let's tread very cautiously here.
If they were wrong about the shop Sara/Zara, they may have been wrong on the location in Guia.

Though they were both adamant and clear in repeatedly naming the place Guia

Was there a zara shop in 2007 that has perhaps since closed ?

by sami 02.11.13 19:12

Actually according to this there is one in Guia

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by Guest 02.11.13 20:28

Sami, thank you

So this means that the Dutch couple could be right. They seemed very down to earth to me, and they did not express any particular interest in the case.
It only remains to be seen if the Zara shop in Guia existed before May 3rd 2007

And what they sold to the English speaking group with twins -a boy and a girl in a double buggy- in the days before May 3rd 2007

Maybe these people used credit cards there.
It's a very posh, high priced fashion chain.

In the afternoon of one of the days of 28th of April - 1st of May 2007.
May 2nd being more or less out of the picture, as not being ' a couple of days before the disappearance of the child', but the previous day.

OK: if I wanted to throw you off the scent of a visit to the East, meeting as yet unnamed people there: would I not in my publications (say: a book on a version of the truth?) tell you of a family trip to the West, say, to Sagres, and stress my buying icecreams for my three children on a beach club or terrace there?

Just a thought

by sami 02.11.13 21:07

Portia wrote:Sami, thank you

So this means that the Dutch couple could be right. They seemed very down to earth to me, and they did not express any particular interest in the case.
It only remains to be seen if the Zara shop in Guia existed before May 3rd 2007

And what they sold to the English speaking group with twins -a boy and a girl in a double buggy- in the days before May 3rd 2007

Maybe these people used credit cards there.
It's a very posh, high priced fashion chain.

In the afternoon of one of the days of 28th of April - 1st of May 2007.
May 2nd being more or less out of the picture, as not being ' a couple of days before the disappearance of the child', but the previous day.

OK: if I wanted to throw you off the scent of a visit to the East, meeting as yet unnamed people there: would I not in my publications (say: a book on a version of the truth?) tell you of a family trip to the West, say, to Sagres, and stress my buying icecreams for my three children on a beach club or terrace there?

Just a thought

Anything we are told in the truthful book, we are told for a reason. The ice cream trip is there for a reason, without doubt. Sadly it is actually out of place, in that it is the only family occasion mentioned, so it only serves to highlight the lack of family time.

The other thing I remember about that ice cream trip and description in the book was that Kate made a big deal of Madeleine wanting to go back to the crèche after the big family trip. Something about that was odd for me at the time I read it. I put the trip down to being a cover for her being missing from the crèche.

by juliet 02.11.13 21:46

Was May 1 the day the Tapas9 have glossed over, apparently unable to remember much except that it was much the same as the other days?

by Rufus T 02.11.13 23:00

Portia wrote:
It only remains to be seen if the Zara shop in Guia existed before May 3rd 20007.

Seems it did, there are some reviews of the mall Shopping Algarve on trip advisor dating from Oct/Nov 2006, and they mention the Zara store.

by j.rob 03.07.14 18:56

The suspicious photographing incident from Sagres (on 30th April 07?) as reported by a concerned father who observed a couple taking clandestine photos of his 4 year old daughter on the beach brings to mind the very peculiar suspicious video-recording incident that Kate gives a (spun) account of in her book. Kate's version of the video- recording incident would have us believe that Nigel, the father of a 4 year old, tells some of the tapas (esp Kate and Russell it would seem) that recording his daughter planning mini- tennis on the Tuesday kid's club session made him feel like a 'dirty old man.'

I have written at length about how implausible Kate's account is. And if you look through police statements you may become suspicious that Nigel' concerns centered around members of the McCann group recording his daughter in a manner that made him feel uncomfortable enough for him to go up and remonstrate.

IF the Polish couple who were suspiciously taking photos of children on the beach a few days before were found to have any links with TM, then you might start thinking that getting hold of photos of 4 year old girls that week was something of a priority. Presumably, had the concerned father at Sagres not been savvy enough to get a photo of the suspicious couple's car registration, then there would have been no police lead to the apartment at Burghau about which there has been much speculation. And in which some interesting DNA was found.

Why is it that photos are such an extraordinary feature in this case?

Just some ideas.

by j.rob 04.07.14 15:36

Portia wrote:Today, friday Nov 1st, travelling in Portugal, I chanced upon two Dutch senior citizen couples from the Algarve. Upper middle class.

After a while, I asked them for their opinion on the Maddie affair.

Without prompting they told me:

One of the Dutch couples had run into the McCann couple at a shopping centre or mall in Guia, while they were paying for their purchases at the Sara (?) shop.
The McCs were in the company of a number of people, speaking with each other in English.
They were pushing a twin buggy, with twin children, a boy and a girl inside.

This had happened days before Maddie was reported missing.
When they saw the english-speaking couple on TV, they immediately recognised them as the couple with the twins in the buggy from the shopping mall.

They were surprised to learn the missing child was another child of theirs, as they had only seen the toddlers in the twin buggy, and no sign of a third child.

This had happened in the afternoon in the town/village of Guia in the Algarve.

The Dutch who told me this had considered going to the police with this information, buth they had thought that it would not make a difference one way or the other.

All of them figured the child would be long gone (dead)

In fact, the other couple had heard so from someone who came to work at their place in the morning of the 4th of May, saying that the parents were involved.

Pretty early, isn´t it?

But surely if the other couple had heard about Madeleine's disappearance from someone who came to work at their place to work on Friday morning, saying that the parents were involved, then the other couple, on learning about their friends' encounter with the McCanns at Zara, would have felt this might be important information to give to the police? Especially as it would appear that on that shopping expedition Madeleine was not accompanying the group?

Who was the person who came to work at the other couple's house on Friday with the belief that the parents were involved? How and why would they have formulated that opinion so early on? Did they also work or have friends who worked at Ocean Club?

If it was the McCanns and their friends that one of the couples spotted, I wonder what the were buying?

by j.rob 04.07.14 16:23

As others have noted Kate glosses over what they did on, I do believe, both Sunday and Monday. The inference from her book is very much that they followed the routine of the children going to the kids' clubs each day. There is only one day when she writes about an excursion of going to the beach - is that Wednesday? But compared with her descriptions of Saturday ( swimming in the freezing pool with Madeleine) Tuesday (taking photos of Madeleine playing mini-tennis and Thursday (all family allegedly sitting by pool at lunch time) The activities of Sunday and Monday are very much glossed over.

IF the McCanns were in a shopping centre at Guia (sp?) then presumably they could have been captured on CCTV plus there could be other witnesses.

Even if they weren't I am still intrigued by what the other Dutch couple said to you Portia.

by j.rob 04.07.14 17:35

mrcibubur wrote:Thanks for those who responded to my earlier posting. Forgive me if I am still confused.

Nuno Lorenco comes across as credible and I would tend to think he might be mistaken but he was clearly in Sagres on the afternoon of 30th April and saw people taking photos of young children (including his own?) which obviously aroused his suspicions. I am not sure that I have understood this part.

Who took photos of who? Lorenco of what we now understand to be the Polish couple taking photos themselves of children who were not their own? or just a photo of the blonde woman? Details of the Vehicle Renault Clio led Police to an Apartment in Burgau. The fact that the Building might have been owned by Robert Murats UNCLE is surely irrelevant - isnt it?

As for the McCanns, surely it is just a simple case of a child throwing a tantrum or something like that and a parent collecting the child 15 minutes after signing in and taking the child (Madeleine) back to the Apartment. The Twins were in the Creche. Why on earth would the McCanns have gone to Sagres on that day and at that time without all their children? Kate McCann makes no reference to Sagres in her book and I can only conclude, subject to what will obviously be gone into at a later date on Inquiry or Case re-opening, that the McCanns never left Praia de la Luz between 3.30pm and 5.20pm on that afternoon of 30th April.

is there any reference to the children having their 'high tea' on that afternoon?

There has been reference in the 'reporting' to a shopkeeper but this is totally unsubstantiated for want of a witness statement.

I think the Post response is correct that the events as we might understand them on 30th April at Sagres have been used to 'beef up' the idea of suspicions for child abduction. Oddly, in my view, Kate McCann makes no reference to this whatsoever in her book (the Seventh Witness if we can be bold and say that) but she does credence to Carole Trammer Fenn, niece of Pamela, who sighted a man leaving the back entrance of 5B between 4pm and 5pm on the afternoon of 3rd May.

I have yet to understand Robert Murats haste in returning to Portugal but I can comprehend that Jennifer Murat may well have summoned her Son to return to Portugal late into the night of 30th April, that it was she who collected Robert on the morning of Tuesday 1st April (the public holiday) and that her movements between 7.30pm and 10pm in regard to buying a few groceries at the local supermarket, have not been fully explained. Furthermore, Luz is a small place, a thousand people live there if i read correctly. Is is not inconceivable that Jennifer Murat and Pamela Fenn could or would have known each other, if long term residents there. I am not suggesting that they actually did and that it has any relevance to the disappearance of Madeleine but is is a point to consider when the chips are down and the McCanns needed to contact someone urgently between 7.15pm and 8.30pm to act as a go between in the removal and concealment of the dead body of Madeleine.

I find all this very weird. At what point did Lorenco go to the police with regard to his concerns about this couple? Give that it is alleged that the couple not only suspiciously photographed but also tried to snatch his four year old, presumably, if he is a completely neutral, unbiased witness, he would have gone to police that day or the next? Or did he only go when he heard about Madeleine's disappearance? And is it true that a cafe owner who happens to be related to Murat has captured the suspicious couple on CCTV? Was it actually at the cafe, then Talgarth the couple tried to steal his child? And not only that but the concerned father also gets a photo of the car registration??

wow!!

Sounds like a really significant 'sighting'. And backed up with some evidence, for once!

And what about the shop keeper who claims he saw Kate and Gerry there with Madeleine but pushing a single buggy? When exactly was that supposed to be?

But how strange that Kate makes no mention of it in her book!

by Erroll Garner 02.01.17 0:41

j.rob wrote:
Portia wrote:Madeline could've been at the creche that day - but not the twins?
As there are very few (real) holiday pics/vids after the boarding on the plane in UK, it's possible the girl "vanished" soon after landing?
Most parents with pre-school kids on holidays don't put the camera down for one minute - there are no other videos.
But surely if the other couple had heard about Madeleine's disappearance from someone who came to work at their place to work on Friday morning, saying that the parents were involved, then the other couple, on learning about their friends' encounter with the McCanns at Zara, would have felt this might be important information to give to the police? Especially as it would appear that on that shopping expedition Madeleine was not accompanying the group?

If it was the McCanns and their friends that one of the couples spotted, I wonder what the were buying?

by Erroll Garner 02.01.17 0:46

Guest wrote:The Dutch shop-keeper who said she had a sighting of Madeline (?) with a French woman and a Portuguese speaking man. She gave a report to the Police a month later, when she saw news reports but this was not given to the McCanns for another months. Wonder why it was kept back? Or did McCanns want to deny knowledge of it?

So how could she have been in Sagres, and at the creche at the same time??

GM never mentions this trip to Sagres as far as I can see. From his interview May 7th [snipped]

----- In the following days they always took breakfast at home, shopping the day before, generally maintaining the daily routine described above. When the children were at creche they had tennis classes, KATE at 09h15, he an hour later, from Monday to Thursday.
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Here's thelink to the Sagres trip
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And here's link for creche records April 30th same day as the Sagres trip
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Does anyone know of any of the Tapas 9 mentioning this trip??