Police to search TWO new wasteland sites

[Clare]

Portuguese sources said Scotland Yard would shift its focus to new sites nearby on Wednesday after a two-day break for public holidays.
Yesterday the Sunday Mirror visited both spots, half a mile from where Maddie vanished in 2007.
One is an overgrown field surrounded by a 3ft wall.
A source said: “It was mentioned in the request letter Scotland Yard sent to Lisbon and has not been subjected to searches before.”
The other, the grounds of a derelict farmhouse with an old well, is a fly-tipping site.
Detectives are also set to quiz up to eight suspects when the search is finished.
It is understood three of them are local crooks and the rest worked at the Ocean Beach complex
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-police-search-two-3661500?

[jeanmonroe]

Anyone know how many, if any, ILOR's from the Portuguese authorities, asking to question possible POI's in the UK, have been turned down by the UK Government departments/courts?

ILOR's surely CAN'T have only been ONE way traffic, could they?

Given that in the 'conclusion' from PJ was their 'request' for 'new interrogation' of Arguidos, K&GM.

"So we suggest that the 'Autos' be sent to the EX.mo Sr. Procurador Geral da R'ublica [General Attorney], in order to:

G) New interrogation of the Arguidos Kate and Gerry McCann;"

Only ILOR's from UK to Portugal? (refused?)

I cannot believe that.

[Monty Heck]

Police will this week move the search for her to an area of overgrown wasteland along the coast in Burgau.

This is NOT what the other papers have been saying.
All the others have been saying the area was to the East, along the road towards Lagos
Burgau is to the WEST, - where the phone pings were, and where other significant places are to be found.

GMcC in his helpfully informative blogs took pains to publicise the couple's favoured jogging route which at the time seemed rather counter intuitive.  Why, if you are seeking privacy from an inquisitive press pack do you let the world know that each morning you will head off in a particular direction?  The unmade up road along the southern edge of PDL, which is a continuation of Rua de Calheta is a far more suitable (and generally favoured) jogging route, as can be seen here:
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&t=h&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=107657972631610969708.00000112a5a7d4674f98d

From the bottom left corner of the 'snail' all the way along the clifftops to Burgau is a network of traffic free paths complete with glorious ocean views.  No jogger in their right mind  pounds the village pavements or toils up the steep hill to the trig point as a regular route - now and again for variety only possibly.  Perhaps it was indeed a case of look over here, not over there when it came to those daily early morning runs, or indeed those runs which took place during the holiday week.  Quite a lot of ground can be covered and explored in a short time during a daily run, and people running regularly could have built up quite a reasonable knowledge of the surrounding terrain in a short time.  MO was vague to say the least concerning where he and K had got to on their apparently very random and never to be repeated 8 mile muscle loosener.  The group's apparent lack of knowledge of the surrounding area seemed to have been something of a get out of jail free card gifted by the initial investigation, but would that view be altered if found that their knowledge was in fact infinitely better than the PJ/Leicester ever gave them credit for?

[Clare]

I bet there are a few ex Ocean resort employees bricking themselves.

Looks like they may be made Patsy's by the UK's finest.

They will regret selling that joint for the rest of their lives.

I doubt it, UK cannot name Portuguese as suspects willy nilly or go and interview or to arrest them without sanctioned from Public Ministry.

The Papers are adding 2+2 and getting 5, just pure nonsense they are printing.

According to The Guardian, Portuguese Police have confirmed several suspects (as many as eight) are on the Met's interview list, that all the suspects are still resident in Portugal, and are 'mostly Portuguese. They also confirm questioning will not take place while take place during the current phase of the investigation due to finish "no later than next Friday".


The Portuguese police source also said no approval is required from prosecutors to question the suspects - the decision rests solely on the PJ - and that they would not be questioned as mere witnesses but immediately formally constituted as arguidos. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/07/madeleine-mccann-suspects-questioned-near-future-police

If true, this is good news. Let's assume that these suspects are indeed Portuguese, that they become arguidos and, in time, are tried. Guilty or innocent, as Portuguese people they will be very well aware that there is another thesis of how Madeleine came to disappear which has been detailed in a bestselling book by the original lead investigator into the case. I imagine their lawyers will want to speak to Mr Amaral about his reasons for these views and will call him as a witness. The reasons that so many people doubt the McCanns' story will need to be explored in full - those controversial initial phone calls and first police interviews; the bizarre unwillingness to answer routine questions; the inexplicable behaviour of the sniffer dogs and handler (who continued to be used in subsequent cases to convict people). All this, I would have thought, will need to be explained before other people can confidently be convicted of abducting Madeleine - and if they can all be explained, then I for one am very ready to hear these explanations.

Yes! Imagine the fiasco if the McCanns were called as witnesses, especially if the evidence against other suspects wasn't sufficiently strong.

[riskybuisness]

with all the people who are under suspicion , Wilkins guy walking the baby, the tanner  guy carrying his kid home and the tapas group all wondering about- how the hell the they  not bump into each other.  That block must have been like Piccadilly circus!

[stillsloppingout]

Police will this week move the search for her to an area of overgrown wasteland along the coast in Burgau.

This is NOT what the other papers have been saying.
All the others have been saying the area was to the East, along the road towards Lagos
Burgau is to the WEST, - where the phone pings were, and where other significant places are to be found.

GMcC in his helpfully informative blogs took pains to publicise the couple's favoured jogging route which at the time seemed rather counter intuitive.  Why, if you are seeking privacy from an inquisitive press pack do you let the world know that each morning you will head off in a particular direction?  The unmade up road along the southern edge of PDL, which is a continuation of Rua de Calheta is a far more suitable (and generally favoured) jogging route, as can be seen here:
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&t=h&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=107657972631610969708.00000112a5a7d4674f98d

From the bottom left corner of the 'snail' all the way along the clifftops to Burgau is a network of traffic free paths complete with glorious ocean views.  No jogger in their right mind  pounds the village pavements or toils up the steep hill to the trig point as a regular route - now and again for variety only possibly.  Perhaps it was indeed a case of look over here, not over there when it came to those daily early morning runs, or indeed those runs which took place during the holiday week.  Quite a lot of ground can be covered and explored in a short time during a daily run, and people running regularly could have built up quite a reasonable knowledge of the surrounding terrain in a short time.  MO was vague to say the least concerning where he and K had got to on their apparently very random and never to be repeated 8 mile muscle loosener.  The group's apparent lack of knowledge of the surrounding area seemed to have been something of a get out of jail fre card gifted by the initial investigation, but would that view be altered if found that their knowledge was in fact infinitely better than the PJ/Leicester ever gave them credit for?

Just a reminder once again the McCann's were NEVER FOLLOWED in Portugal , only the day they both appeared outside the Police Station did the heavyweight paps turn up . i Know snappers who were over there at the time .

[TheTruthWillOut]

with all the people who are under suspicion , Wilkins guy walking the baby, the tanner  guy carrying his kid home and the tapas group all wondering about- how the hell the they  not bump into each other.  That block must have been like Piccadilly circus!

If someone here as the time/will/skill, I would love to see a map with all the people and times to give a visual representation of just how ridiculous it would be for burglar(s) to panic, murder, hang around for ~1 hour, be seen ~45 minutes later still, but not be seen by anyone in the apartment block or by T9/Ocean Club guests/staff.

[worriedmum]

Although this was taken before then, SSO

[HelenMeg]

ttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651846/Search-Madeleine-McCann-new-site-hard-water-treatment-plant-linked-suspect.html

bringing Euclides Monteiro back into picture?

[jeanmonroe]

How come none of these 'suspects' didn't try to stop the 'burglator' carrying Madeleine off?   

Gang of '3' vs Gang of '5'

"squabbling" over which 'gang' was going to 'burgle' the unlocked apartment 5A.

[jeanmonroe]

ttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651846/Search-Madeleine-McCann-new-site-hard-water-treatment-plant-linked-suspect.html

bringing Euclides Monteiro back into picture?

Of course!

Trouble is, the Smith's said their 'Smithman' was WHITE!

[stillsloppingout]

Sorry more gloomy posts . My position has not changed , as i think its SY trying to fit there theory around a big show ,making several other persons aguidos is an interesting ploy .

 Here is why .. It dilutes the arguido status , so the stigma associated to Gerry and Kate is cheapened it lessens its value . so say eight more persons are made arguido , they will of course all be freed and released , and one more tricky stigma struck off the saintly pairs copy book into the bargain . Job done .

[Monty Heck]

I bet there are a few ex Ocean resort employees bricking themselves.

Looks like they may be made Patsy's by the UK's finest.

They will regret selling that joint for the rest of their lives.

I doubt it, UK cannot name Portuguese as suspects willy nilly or go and interview or to arrest them without sanctioned from Public Ministry.

The Papers are adding 2+2 and getting 5, just pure nonsense they are printing.

According to The Guardian, Portuguese Police have confirmed several suspects (as many as eight) are on the Met's interview list, that all the suspects are still resident in Portugal, and are 'mostly Portuguese. They also confirm questioning will not take place while take place during the current phase of the investigation due to finish "no later than next Friday".


The Portuguese police source also said no approval is required from prosecutors to question the suspects - the decision rests solely on the PJ - and that they would not be questioned as mere witnesses but immediately formally constituted as arguidos. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/07/madeleine-mccann-suspects-questioned-near-future-police

If true, this is good news. Let's assume that these suspects are indeed Portuguese, that they become arguidos and, in time, are tried. Guilty or innocent, as Portuguese people they will be very well aware that there is another thesis of how Madeleine came to disappear which has been detailed in a bestselling book by the original lead investigator into the case. I imagine their lawyers will want to speak to Mr Amaral about his reasons for these views and will call him as a witness. The reasons that so many people doubt the McCanns' story will need to be explored in full - those controversial initial phone calls and first police interviews; the bizarre unwillingness to answer routine questions; the inexplicable behaviour of the sniffer dogs and handler (who continued to be used in subsequent cases to convict people). All this, I would have thought, will need to be explained before other people can confidently be convicted of abducting Madeleine - and if they can all be explained, then I for one am very ready to hear these explanations.

Yes! Imagine the fiasco if the McCanns were called as witnesses, especially if the evidence against other suspects wasn't sufficiently strong.

There is a precdent to this scenario currently going through the Scottish courts.  In a case of the murder of a 16 year old schoolgirl in Greenock during the 1980s, the accused cited in his defence 49 former suspects in the case.  All of whom were investigated and ruled out at the time, but nonetheless a fair number of them at least were called to give evidence on oath, and the circumstances surrounding the possible involvement of each examined in court at the request of the defence. The case is therefore long running and noteworthy regarding the lengths to which the defence has been prepared to go to cast doubt on the accusaion against their client, and indeed may have been something of a ploy intended to deter the P Fiscal from bringing the case.  A case with only 3 former arguido would pose far less of a logistical challenge so you may indeed be right on this.

Slightly off topic, it does seem odd that the McCs are quoted as being encouraged (or whatever) by the current digs.  If nothing is found they are no farther forward.  If something is found which confirms their child is sadly dead, if they themselves are not once again under suspicion and someone else is accused, they may well find themselves in the position described above.

[stillsloppingout]

Although this was taken before then, SSO

Getty top agency ,snapper may have decided i need to file stock pics of Gerry actually SEARCHING !!

  But usually Because of the sensitivity of the case , the snappers used to get there shot in the morning or whenever there was a photo call ,  and then go to the hotels , maybe a snapper was nearby and got lucky or one did have a look so to speak . but as a rule they were left alone ; hence why they were allowed to do there magical mystery tour .

[Guest]

SY could get permission to interview everyone that was in praia de luz on one warm night in may but it changes nothing. They cannot arrest them. It is not their case. Unless we are suddenly to believe they and the PJ are singing from the same hymn sheet. Something has changed, The kay burley article says a lot to me. Not forgetting two weeks ago Sky News put a timeline on their website mentioning libel trial and eddie and keela among others. And Kay Burleys mention of the mccanns slating the media- afaik she asked people to message/tweet their opinions on this given that they courted the media when it suited them.

[jeanmonroe]

SY/Met/McCanns HAVE to keep up this 'pretence/show' until just after the libel case 'resumes' on June 16th?

[Monty Heck]

Police will this week move the search for her to an area of overgrown wasteland along the coast in Burgau.

This is NOT what the other papers have been saying.
All the others have been saying the area was to the East, along the road towards Lagos
Burgau is to the WEST, - where the phone pings were, and where other significant places are to be found.

GMcC in his helpfully informative blogs took pains to publicise the couple's favoured jogging route which at the time seemed rather counter intuitive.  Why, if you are seeking privacy from an inquisitive press pack do you let the world know that each morning you will head off in a particular direction?  The unmade up road along the southern edge of PDL, which is a continuation of Rua de Calheta is a far more suitable (and generally favoured) jogging route, as can be seen here:
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&t=h&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=107657972631610969708.00000112a5a7d4674f98d

From the bottom left corner of the 'snail' all the way along the clifftops to Burgau is a network of traffic free paths complete with glorious ocean views.  No jogger in their right mind  pounds the village pavements or toils up the steep hill to the trig point as a regular route - now and again for variety only possibly.  Perhaps it was indeed a case of look over here, not over there when it came to those daily early morning runs, or indeed those runs which took place during the holiday week.  Quite a lot of ground can be covered and explored in a short time during a daily run, and people running regularly could have built up quite a reasonable knowledge of the surrounding terrain in a short time.  MO was vague to say the least concerning where he and K had got to on their apparently very random and never to be repeated 8 mile muscle loosener.  The group's apparent lack of knowledge of the surrounding area seemed to have been something of a get out of jail fre card gifted by the initial investigation, but would that view be altered if found that their knowledge was in fact infinitely better than the PJ/Leicester ever gave them credit for?

Just a reminder once again the McCann's were NEVER FOLLOWED in Portugal , only the day they both appeared outside the Police Station did the heavyweight paps turn up . i Know snappers who were over there at the time .

Exactly.  Have never bought the "how could they have done anything under the constant glare of publicity" line.  There is no footage or shots of them at night, apart from the well publicised visits to the church.  After sundown the press seem to have been stood down, so few if any privacy issues for considerable amounts of time.  Add in babysitters available on tap leaving the couple free to go pretty much werever they pleased.

[jeanmonroe]

Popcorn wrote:
"Let's assume that these suspects are indeed Portuguese, that they become arguidos and, in time, are tried. Guilty or innocent, as Portuguese people they will be very well aware that there is another thesis of how Madeleine came to disappear which has been detailed in a bestselling book by the original lead investigator into the case. I imagine their lawyers will want to speak to Mr Amaral about his reasons for these views and will call him as a witness."

AND will call as a 'witness'

The (ex?) Assistant Chief Constable of the UK's Leicestershire Police who said (in a courtroom): “While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance”.

(Dr Kate McCann made ‘a tactical retreat’, after hearing 'THAT' )
-------------------------------------------------------------
'This investigation is ANYTHING but 'normal' and it has NEVER been 'normal' from the day Madeleine McCann 'disappeared'
BBC reporter in PDL.

[Guest]

SY/Met/McCanns HAVE to keep up this 'pretence/show' until just after the libel case 'resumes' on June 16th?

The libel trial wont resume on June 16th. It's postponed, no new date published..
kindest regards

parapono

[jeanmonroe]

Apparently, all these 'suspects' are MALE.

Can a 'ping' differentiate between WHO was using a particular 'mobile' at a certain time?

Male OR Female?

I don't think so, but who knows?

I use my OH's mobile, would that make ME a 'suspect' if police traced that 'ping' to my house?

Or just HIM?

[stillsloppingout]

Just a reminder once again the McCann's were NEVER FOLLOWED in Portugal , only the day they both appeared outside the Police Station did the heavyweight paps turn up . i Know snappers who were over there at the time .

Exactly.  Have never bought the "how could they have done anything under the constant glare of publicity" line.  There is no footage or shots of them at night, apart from the well publicised visits to the church.  After sundown the press seem to have been stood down, so few if any privacy issues for considerable amounts of time.  Add in babysitters available on tap leaving the couple free to go pretty much werever they pleased.

the ISO on digital SLR cameras in 2007 was only about 1000 iso tops, pushing it using a nikon d2x ] seven years ago in street lighting you could get grainy pap shots at night , but as the UK's desks were in the belief the family had really lost there child, it was deemed inappropriate to hassle them . as it would with any parents of a missing child . you had no reason to go "papping them " the desks would not have, because of this reason published those types of shots anyway, and believe me if the town was crawling with snappers at night there would have been more than just a sighting of smithman , if he exists [ which i doubt ] .

[Guest]

I bet there are a few ex Ocean resort employees bricking themselves.

Looks like they may be made Patsy's by the UK's finest.

They will regret selling that joint for the rest of their lives.

I doubt it, UK cannot name Portuguese as suspects willy nilly or go and interview or to arrest them without sanctioned from Public Ministry.

The Papers are adding 2+2 and getting 5, just pure nonsense they are printing.

According to The Guardian, Portuguese Police have confirmed several suspects (as many as eight) are on the Met's interview list, that all the suspects are still resident in Portugal, and are 'mostly Portuguese. They also confirm questioning will not take place while take place during the current phase of the investigation due to finish "no later than next Friday".


The Portuguese police source also said no approval is required from prosecutors to question the suspects - the decision rests solely on the PJ - and that they would not be questioned as mere witnesses but immediately formally constituted as arguidos. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/07/madeleine-mccann-suspects-questioned-near-future-police

If true, this is good news. Let's assume that these suspects are indeed Portuguese, that they become arguidos and, in time, are tried. Guilty or innocent, as Portuguese people they will be very well aware that there is another thesis of how Madeleine came to disappear which has been detailed in a bestselling book by the original lead investigator into the case. I imagine their lawyers will want to speak to Mr Amaral about his reasons for these views and will call him as a witness. The reasons that so many people doubt the McCanns' story will need to be explored in full - those controversial initial phone calls and first police interviews; the bizarre unwillingness to answer routine questions; the inexplicable behaviour of the sniffer dogs and handler (who continued to be used in subsequent cases to convict people). All this, I would have thought, will need to be explained before other people can confidently be convicted of abducting Madeleine - and if they can all be explained, then I for one am very ready to hear these explanations.

Yes! Imagine the fiasco if the McCanns were called as witnesses, especially if the evidence against other suspects wasn't sufficiently strong.

There is a precdent to this scenario currently going through the Scottish courts.  In a case of the murder of a 16 year old schoolgirl in Greenock during the 1980s, the accused cited in his defence 49 former suspects in the case.  All of whom were investigated and ruled out at the time, but nonetheless a fair number of them at least were called to give evidence on oath, and the circumstances surrounding the possible involvement of each examined in court at the request of the defence. The case is therefore long running and noteworthy regarding the lengths to which the defence has been prepared to go to cast doubt on the accusaion against their client, and indeed may have been something of a ploy intended to deter the P Fiscal from bringing the case.  A case with only 3 former arguido would pose far less of a logistical challenge so you may indeed be right on this.

Slightly off topic, it does seem odd that the McCs are quoted as being encouraged (or whatever) by the current digs.  If nothing is found they are no farther forward.  If something is found which confirms their child is sadly dead, if they themselves are not once again under suspicion and someone else is accused, they may well find themselves in the position described above.

Of  course if the McCanns were on trial their defence would be calling all the burglators, drug dealers and remaining living paedophiles etc to give evidence on oath regarding their possible involvement to cast doubt on the prosecution. How many persons of interest does AR have? It would be a fiasco.
So they have to be interviewed and excluded one way or another now that SY has gone down the route of identifying them.
Is this why they are waiting until after the digs to question these 8 people?
If they could possibly have information they should be questioned before.
It must surely just be an exclusion exercise.

[End]

SY/Met/McCanns HAVE to keep up this 'pretence/show' until just after the libel case 'resumes' on June 16th?

The libel trial wont resume on June 16th. It's postponed, no new date published..
kindest regards

parapono

Just as I expected       .......... 

[jeanmonroe]

I don't get why the MET did not 'insist' on er, 'interviewing' the X number of 'suspects' BEFORE their extremely expensive (UK 'unlimited' taxpayer funded) so far, fruitless, 'searches'

ONE of 'them' might have been able to 'lead' DCI Redwood to an EXACT 'spot', on the Snail, mighten he/she/them?

Butt, there again, 'This investigation is ANYTHING but 'normal' and it has NEVER been 'normal' from the day Madeleine McCann 'disappeared', has it?

as opined by a BBC reporter, earlier this week.

It didn't escape my notice, that the BBC reporter's 'comment' was NOT published ANYWHERE in the UK Madia.

[Monty Heck]

I bet there are a few ex Ocean resort employees bricking themselves.

Looks like they may be made Patsy's by the UK's finest.

They will regret selling that joint for the rest of their lives.

I doubt it, UK cannot name Portuguese as suspects willy nilly or go and interview or to arrest them without sanctioned from Public Ministry.

The Papers are adding 2+2 and getting 5, just pure nonsense they are printing.

According to The Guardian, Portuguese Police have confirmed several suspects (as many as eight) are on the Met's interview list, that all the suspects are still resident in Portugal, and are 'mostly Portuguese. They also confirm questioning will not take place while take place during the current phase of the investigation due to finish "no later than next Friday".


The Portuguese police source also said no approval is required from prosecutors to question the suspects - the decision rests solely on the PJ - and that they would not be questioned as mere witnesses but immediately formally constituted as arguidos. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/07/madeleine-mccann-suspects-questioned-near-future-police

If true, this is good news. Let's assume that these suspects are indeed Portuguese, that they become arguidos and, in time, are tried. Guilty or innocent, as Portuguese people they will be very well aware that there is another thesis of how Madeleine came to disappear which has been detailed in a bestselling book by the original lead investigator into the case. I imagine their lawyers will want to speak to Mr Amaral about his reasons for these views and will call him as a witness. The reasons that so many people doubt the McCanns' story will need to be explored in full - those controversial initial phone calls and first police interviews; the bizarre unwillingness to answer routine questions; the inexplicable behaviour of the sniffer dogs and handler (who continued to be used in subsequent cases to convict people). All this, I would have thought, will need to be explained before other people can confidently be convicted of abducting Madeleine - and if they can all be explained, then I for one am very ready to hear these explanations.

Yes! Imagine the fiasco if the McCanns were called as witnesses, especially if the evidence against other suspects wasn't sufficiently strong.

There is a precdent to this scenario currently going through the Scottish courts.  In a case of the murder of a 16 year old schoolgirl in Greenock during the 1980s, the accused cited in his defence 49 former suspects in the case.  All of whom were investigated and ruled out at the time, but nonetheless a fair number of them at least were called to give evidence on oath, and the circumstances surrounding the possible involvement of each examined in court at the request of the defence. The case is therefore long running and noteworthy regarding the lengths to which the defence has been prepared to go to cast doubt on the accusaion against their client, and indeed may have been something of a ploy intended to deter the P Fiscal from bringing the case.  A case with only 3 former arguido would pose far less of a logistical challenge so you may indeed be right on this.

Slightly off topic, it does seem odd that the McCs are quoted as being encouraged (or whatever) by the current digs.  If nothing is found they are no farther forward.  If something is found which confirms their child is sadly dead, if they themselves are not once again under suspicion and someone else is accused, they may well find themselves in the position described above.

Of  course if the McCanns were on trial their defence would be calling all the burglators, drug dealers and remaining living paedophiles etc to give evidence on oath regarding their possible involvement to cast doubt on the prosecution. How many persons of interest does AR have? It would be a fiasco.
So they have to be interviewed and excluded one way or another now that SY has gone down the route of identifying them.
Is this why they are waiting until after the digs to question these 8 people?
If they could possibly have information they should be questioned before.
It must surely just be an exclusion exercise.

As I understand it all of the witnesses previously under suspicion in the above case had been taken in and questioned by police, before being officially ruled out.  No-one so far, other than the former 3 arguidos in this case, is in that position.  Of the 8 to be questioned according to the media, some or all may be as witnesses rather than suspects. 

What I was saying in my original post is that, in bringing forward evidence that there had been a large number of other suspects in that case, the defence was allowed an unusual amount of licence.  Normally there might be one, two, perhaps three others cited.  It's unlkely any justice system would sanction defence questioning before a jury of every person on a police list of possible suspects, particularly if they were not of sufficient interest for official police questioning in the first place.