Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

by whatliesbehindthesofa 01.05.14 23:05

russiandoll wrote:WLBTS- I believe he did take a time out for a walk through certain streets in PdL, carrying a small fair haired girl in PJs.

The all clear was given and ACT 3 could begin. The " abductor " had been seen.

way off- topic sorry..... re FP I believe that she was in 5a early evening helping Kate with settling the twins down for the night.

And possibly sedating them so that everyone could be free to go about their business? I can't think of a more appropriate helper than Fiona for that activity.

by russiandoll 01.05.14 23:07

diatribe wrote:
mariola wrote:
What about the smith family sighting?

Its of no relevance to this case, if it were, our intrepid Inspector Redwood wouldn't be drawing attention to it. Every word and action that has emanated from the Met. Police has detracted from the involvement of the McCanns.

If Inspector Redwood encourages you to look around Tottenham, you can safely discount N. London and commence searching down the Old Kent Rd.

Why would Redwood do this in your opinion? Detract from McCann involvement?

by mariola 01.05.14 23:15

Andrew77R wrote:Where's the venue......

Andrew,the time between 4.30 and 7pm on the day of the third is crucial.Gerry tells David James Smith of The Sunday Times( beyond the smears ,16 december 2007 )that because of his achilles injury he has to rest .He hangs around the courts and is back at the apartment at 7pm.
No further mention of tennis.Strange given that the journo regards his article as a forensic examination of that days events.
Strange as this is contradicted by Payne,s evidence that Gerry is playing tennis when Payne visits Kate.

by diatribe 01.05.14 23:16

russiandoll wrote:
diatribe wrote:

Why would Redwood do this in your opinion? Detract from McCann involvement?

Because that's his remit, why else would he be chasing after all these other fictitious characters, burglars, spurious sex attackers et al? Why else would he feel the need to ignore the obvious and eliminate all the rest of the planet's inhabitants.

by Guest 01.05.14 23:19

mariola wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:Where's the venue......
Andrew,the time between 4.30 and 7pm on the day of the third is crucial.Gerry tells David James Smith of The Sunday Times( beyond the smears ,16 december 2007 )that because of his achilles injury he has to rest .He hangs around the courts and is back at the apartment at 7pm.
No further mention of tennis.Strange given that the journo regards his article as a forensic examination of that days events.
Strange as this is contradicted by Payne,s evidence that Gerry is playing tennis when Payne visits Kate.

Yeah i know.

I meant the venue as referred to by PeterMac earlier.

Snipped from his comment:

The venue . . . ?
Less than five minutes away. Address on application
With all facilities. (Commercial Fridges, freezers, outhouses, land, . . .you name it AND YES. The PJ DID execute a search warrant, but much too late.)

by whatliesbehindthesofa 01.05.14 23:19

mariola wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:Where's the venue......
Andrew,the time between 4.30 and 7pm on the day of the third is crucial.Gerry tells David James Smith of The Sunday Times( beyond the smears ,16 december 2007 )that because of his achilles injury he has to rest .He hangs around the courts and is back at the apartment at 7pm.
No further mention of tennis.Strange given that the journo regards his article as a forensic examination of that days events.
Strange as this is contradicted by Payne,s evidence that Gerry is playing tennis when Payne visits Kate.

If I'd injured myself, I would have gone and sat down in the apartment. I don't believe in miracles, and I don't believe Gerry's injury and rapid recovery.

by russiandoll 01.05.14 23:23

diatribe wrote:
russiandoll wrote:
diatribe wrote:

Why would Redwood do this in your opinion? Detract from McCann involvement?

Because that's his remit, why else would he be chasing after all these other fictitious characters, burglars, spurious sex attackers et al? Why else would he feel the need to ignore the obvious and eliminate all the rest of the planet's inhabitants.

If this is true, then it s not to protect a pair of doctors, for sure.

by mariola 01.05.14 23:31

PeterMac wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Actually, I do find these hints tantalising :) Is this venue referred to in the files?
Yes, it is.
I have no other source of information.
I wish . . . . . !
I work from the evidence we have.
I try to keep things simple - Occam's Razor.

As with DCI Redwood's revelation -
it came from something already in the files.

He only had to trace and identify the man and Tannerman as the only evidence available of Abduction - was blown right out of the water.
Which means no abduction.
Which means Madeleine was not alive when she left the apartment - which Redwood has since verified as the logical corollary of the above.
And as Kate has most recently intimated the McCanns have begun, publicly, to accept - but obviously for different reasons.

Peter he could have used the window of opportunity from 4,30 pm onwards to do his reconnaissnce work of the venue and moved
the dead body later that evening .This would accommodate the Smith evidence ,which to me seems credible.

by Guest 01.05.14 23:33

The venue . . . ?
Less than five minutes away. Address on application
With all facilities. (Commercial Fridges, freezers, outhouses, land, . . .you name it AND YES. The PJ DID execute a search warrant, but much too late.)

Do you mean Murat's mothers house which was searched on the 14th of May 2007.......

by Guest 01.05.14 23:37

Andrew77R wrote:
mariola wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:Where's the venue......
Andrew,the time between 4.30 and 7pm on the day of the third is crucial.Gerry tells David James Smith of The Sunday Times( beyond the smears ,16 december 2007 )that because of his achilles injury he has to rest .He hangs around the courts and is back at the apartment at 7pm.
No further mention of tennis.Strange given that the journo regards his article as a forensic examination of that days events.
Strange as this is contradicted by Payne,s evidence that Gerry is playing tennis when Payne visits Kate.
Yeah i know.

I meant the venue as referred to by PeterMac earlier.

Snipped from his comment:

The venue . . . ?
Less than five minutes away. Address on application
With all facilities. (Commercial Fridges, freezers, outhouses, land, . . .you name it AND YES. The PJ DID execute a search warrant, but much too late.)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Don't know to where PeterMac is referring, but this shows areas within 5 mins of Apt 5a. I'm sure all this area was searched thoroughly, a few places quite famously so... smilie

by diatribe 01.05.14 23:48

russiandoll wrote:
diatribe wrote:
russiandoll wrote:
diatribe wrote:

Why would Redwood do this in your opinion? Detract from McCann involvement?

Because that's his remit, why else would he be chasing after all these other fictitious characters, burglars, spurious sex attackers et al? Why else would he feel the need to ignore the obvious and eliminate all the rest of the planet's inhabitants.

If this is true, then it s not to protect a pair of doctors, for sure.

I agree, Russian, this aspect is a bigger mystery than what happened to Madeleine, although its not just two doctors, is it. Do you think that due to there being a party of doctors, the gov. help was initially offered to protect the reputation of the medical profession and that it snowballed from there.

Not only govs, but large organisations in general find it very difficult to admit when they are wrong and the longer the error transpires, the more difficult it becomes. I suppose Hillsborough is a classic example, Derek Bentley was another, then there were the Birmingham six, Guildford four etc. etc. where the victims of these miscarriages of justice had to wait until all the senior police officers and judiciary involved had either retired or become deceased before justice was finally served.

by mariola 01.05.14 23:53

FWIW I don,t think the body was moved from apt 5a on the evening of the third may .Mrs Fenn stated that she heard nothing from 5a all evening until 10,30pm.So if the Smiths and Mrs Fenn are to be believed,and i think they should,the body was moved to the venue by Gerry around ten but not from 5a.IMO

by diatribe 02.05.14 0:11

mariola wrote:FWIW I don,t think the body was moved from apt 5a on the evening of the third may .Mrs Fenn stated that she heard nothing from 5a all evening until 10,30pm.So if the Smiths and Mrs Fenn are to be believed,and i think they should,the body was moved to the venue by Gerry around ten but not from 5a.IMO

I think Peter is correct, the body was most definitely disposed of prior to the McCanns leaving for the Tapas bar. I can't subscribe to the aft. because as previously stated, I don't believe the McCanns would have confided in Catriona Baker and relied on her to provide a false alibi, although they may have persuaded her that it was later than she believed when Madeleine was collected from the Creche.

by Doug D 02.05.14 1:18

Mariola:

‘Peter he could have used the window of opportunity from 4,30 pm onwards to do his reconnaissance work of the venue and moved the dead body later that evening . This would accommodate the Smith evidence, which to me seems credible’

If you wanted to move &/or create the appearance of an abduction, would you seriously carry a dead body openly around the streets, not knowing who you might bump into, when there were several other live and safer options you could use?

It’s just nonsensical & far too risky.

If you want to go with Smithman and the creation of an abduction scenario, which makes for a logical story, it’s got to be using one of the other girls.

If you wanted to keep it from the others, although a bit small, Amelie dressed in pj’s would have looked good enough for the part and been easier to carry.

Carrying a ‘tennis racket’ around in a blue sports bag, whilst dressed in tennis gear during the afternoon makes far more sense.

by Bishop Brennan 02.05.14 3:53

Doug D wrote:

Carrying a ‘tennis racket’ around in a blue sports bag, whilst dressed in tennis gear during the afternoon makes far more sense.

Indeed it does. And it makes even more sense when you remember the PJ photo of that self-same blue bag, now back in the wardrobe of Gerry's bedroom - in the very spot where a few weeks later Eddie would bark to signal the presence of cadaver odour... nerdy

by russiandoll 02.05.14 8:25

quote mariola : " So if the Smiths and Mrs Fenn are to be believed, and i think they should, the body was moved to the venue by Gerry around ten but not from 5a.IMO "

For the Smiths to be telling the truth re what they saw, there needs to be a man fitting the description, also in the words of AR, a young girl whose description closely resembles that of Madeleine McCann. There does not need to be a deceased child in this man's arms.

I can think of one such little girl and also of 2 parents who were back and forth from their apartment during the timeline being investigated by SY.

by mariola 02.05.14 8:55

russiandoll wrote:quote mariola : " So if the Smiths and Mrs Fenn are to be believed, and i think they should, the body was moved to the venue by Gerry around ten but not from 5a.IMO "

For the Smiths to be telling the truth re what they saw, there needs to be a man fitting the description, also in the words of AR, a young girl whose description closely resembles that of Madeleine McCann. There does not need to be a deceased child in this man's arms.

I can think of one such little girl and also of 2 parents who were back and forth from their apartment during the timeline being investigated by SY.

Could he not have planned the removal of the body during the afternoon.Having found the secure apt with cold storage he then moves the body
when he thinks he will not be seen.He is rumbled by the Smiths.Why take the risk of being spotted with another child just to add to abduction theory.He had JT for that.

by russiandoll 02.05.14 9:01

Mariola, imo the man with the child wanted to be seen, but not as closely as he was.

Suggest we continue this on the appropriate thread as this is about the whereabouts of FP early evening 3rd.

Not surprising it has gone off-track, though as it feeds into the events of later on.

Imo to carry around a deceased child would be lunacy and this never happened.

by mariola 02.05.14 9:03

Doug D wrote:Mariola:

‘Peter he could have used the window of opportunity from 4,30 pm onwards to do his reconnaissance work of the venue and moved the dead body later that evening . This would accommodate the Smith evidence, which to me seems credible’

If you wanted to move &/or create the appearance of an abduction, would you seriously carry a dead body openly around the streets, not knowing who you might bump into, when there were several other live and safer options you could use?

It’s just nonsensical & far too risky.

If you want to go with Smithman and the creation of an abduction scenario, which makes for a logical story, it’s got to be using one of the other girls.

If you wanted to keep it from the others, although a bit small, Amelie dressed in pj’s would have looked good enough for the part and been easier to carry.

Carrying a ‘tennis racket’ around in a blue sports bag, whilst dressed in tennis gear during the afternoon makes far more sense.

doug, .i wasn,t suggesting he wanted create the appearance of an abduction,far from it .He had to move the body somewhere secure for the time being.Why couldn,t it be Maddie at the time of the Smith sighting?

by unchained melody 02.05.14 9:04

I see there's a tennis court at the Boavista Golf Club...

by mariola 02.05.14 9:07

russiandoll wrote:Mariola, imo the man with the child wanted to be seen, but not as closely as he was.

Suggest we continue this on the appropriate thread as this is about the whereabouts of FP early evening 3rd.

Not surprising it has gone off-track, though as it feeds into the events of later on.

Imo to carry around a deceased child would be lunacy and this never happened.

Thanks rd ,you answered my point to Doug.Agreed ,wrong thread.Still puzzled!

by **PeterMac** 02.05.14 9:14

Quite so.
And remember it was NOT a brilliant hot sunny day, as the Last Photo would have us believe. That was clearly taken on the Sunday.
It was rather cloudy - to use the English expression, - and fairly cool,
so lots of people would be indoors, rather than by the pool, and someone mooching around would possibly not be seen or noticed by anyone.

by Guest 02.05.14 14:03

russiandoll wrote:WLBTS- I believe he did take a time out for a walk through certain streets in PdL, carrying a small fair haired girl in PJs.

The all clear was given and ACT 3 could begin. The " abductor " had been seen.

way off- topic sorry..... re FP I believe that she was in 5a early evening helping Kate with settling the twins down for the night.

RD, why do you say 'settling down the twins', as Maddie 'must' have been in the appartment still? Why just the twins?

by Guest 02.05.14 14:12

Portia: I read rd's "settling down of the twins" as them being sedated. IMO MBM was dead at that time and they were preparing for the next act.

by mariola 02.05.14 16:17

russiandoll wrote:Mariola, imo the man with the child wanted to be seen, but not as closely as he was.

Suggest we continue this on the appropriate thread as this is about the whereabouts of FP early evening 3rd.

Not surprising it has gone off-track, though as it feeds into the events of later on.

Imo to carry around a deceased child would be lunacy and this never happened.

final word on this rd ,just to reply to your post.GM is a clown but he is not that stupid!imo