Mrs Fenn on 3rd May

Newintown wrote:

j.rob wrote:Perhaps of note is that Kate does not deny that one of their children was crying on Tuesday night. But she claims it is Amelie.

Kate claims that "only two minor aspects of that evening stand out as differing from the norm". 

This suggests to me that there were major aspects of that evening that mark it as being anything but normal.

"The first was that Russell didn't join us for dinner. Evie wasn't well so he stayed with their girls in the apartment and Jane took his meal to him."

I presume this is Kate accounting for the one place at the dinner table that was empty as recorded by Ms Chekaya (and maybe others). I also suspect that it was important to claim that there was at least one Tapas child who was unwell that week to allow for, possibly, extra washing and cleaning going on. And for other Tapas comings and goings sometimes carrying (supposedly?) sick/sleeping children.

"The second was that some time in the early hours Madeleine came through to our bedroom, complaining that Amelie was crying and had woken her up. Gerry checked on Amelie, who settled quickly, and we let Madeleine jump into bed with us."

Hmmmm......well. My take on this is that at no time 'in the early hours' of Tuesday night/Wednesday morning did Madeleine walk into the McCann's bedroom. She did not wake up in the early hours hearing Amelie crying. Nor did Madeleine 'jump' into Kate and Gerry's bed then.

IMO

The bit that could possibly be true (!) is that Amelie, or Sean, or both, were crying that night. But, on the other hand, Kate may simply have flagged up that a child was crying that night to provide 'cover' for the crying that Mrs Fenn reported. But by claiming it was Amelie, she refutes Mrs Fenn's testimony that the crying sounded like it came from a child over two. (in other words from Madeleine) . And by claiming the crying happened 'in the early hours' she refutes Mrs Fenn's testimony that the crying happened from 10.30pm until 11.45pm.

And by claiming that Madeleine was woken up by Amelies crying and 'jumped into' bed with Kate and Gerry, Kate minimizes the significance of the crying incident as heard by Mrs Fenn and minimizes any negative outcomes from it on Madeleine.

Sadly, I also believe that Madeleine was not capable of  'jumping' that night or the next day either....

I'm sure Ms Chekaya would have remembered seeing KM at the table, with her blond hair and attractive face, and I'm sure KM would have introduced herself as KATE, GERRY'S WIFE, if Ms Chekaya was getting too friendly with GM.  As you say, the Tapas 9 always seem to come up with a story to fill in any gaps they hadn't thought of previously i.e. that Russell was the one missing from the table.  Who would know what Russell looked like except for the Tapas 9, but I'm sure Chekaya would DEFINITELY remember KM being at the table if she was.

Good point! 

"When questioned, she said that they talked of banalities and she did not notice any aspect or behaviour that was out of the ordinary.
When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleine's father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person."

It would be very interesting to hear the testimony of every diner at the restaurant that evening and of everyone who was present or participated in the quiz night (on either night). 

Including staff. Often other staff (such as sports instructors etc) join in with these types of evening activities.

As far as I am aware I have not read a single testimony that mentions the quiz night. Either on Sunday or on Tuesday.

Which is odd. Because Kate, in her book, mentions other social activities in the evening. You would think that one of the other guests would have mentioned the quiz night.

Kate merely writes: "Sometimes in the early evening there would be a light-hearted tennis event: Monday was 'ladies night', for example and on Tuesday there was 'object tennis.'

And of course Kate writes about the events of Thursday evening when Gerry apparently meets Dave, Matt and Russell at 6pm for the men's social tennis night. And David Payne, apparently, puts his head around the patio door at 6.30pm asking if he could give Kate a hand taking her children up to the play area.'

But no mention of the dreaded quiz night from anyone, it would seem, apart from the hapless Ms Chekaya who could hardly deny it, I suppose. 

Surely this could be an  'elephant in the room'. If you have watch the interview with the Irish journalist who becomes extremely animated when he questions Kate about 'some kind of row' that she and Gerry had during that week. That interview made me suspect that this is a very sensitive area indeed.

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Watch how he rubs his hands together as he asks the Mcs about some sort of a 'row'. He's been itching to ask that question, imo, and he positively gloats as he watches their responses.

So I wonder if word got back from other guests that week (especially those who worked in media/films/PR etc of which there seem to be a disproportionate amount) that the roses were not exactly trailing around the door of Mc Apartment 5A that week, even prior to the arrival of the ugly/pimple/monster/Tanner bogey-man on Thursday evening?

(And GM sulking in the corner of the airport bus saying: 'f**k off, I'm not here to enjoy myself' would certainly seem to indicate that a week on holiday with his wife and three children and a group of other young families is not his idea of fun.)

As far as I am aware I have not read a single testimony that mentions the quiz night. Either on Sunday or on Tuesday.

Correct.

The quiz night.

It all started here.

Kate slept in the kids room after the quiz night.

Ask the Gerry.

PeterMac wrote:

From my reading there is almost no one, except K and G, who say she was alive on 3rd.

I think here we must bring up this paragraph from AnnaEsse's translation of Dr Amaral's 'The Truth About A Lie':

On the fateful day of May 3rd, the attendance register at the play centre indicates that Madeleine arrived at 9.10, accompanied by her father. Her mother came to fetch her at 12.25 for lunch and took her back at 2 o'clock. After jogging on the beach and going to fetch the twins, she collected Maddie at 5.30pm. From that moment on, no other person saw the little girl, apart from her parents and their friends. What happened then in the apartment remains a mystery.

Elsewhere, Dr Amaral has confirmed his view that he accepts as gospel the nanny's evidence that Madeleine was at the high tea at around 5.30pm. Amaral does not seem however to count the 'David Payne visit at 6.30pm' as true: "No other person apart from the McCanns saw Madeleine after 5.30pm".

Amaral was therefore convinced, as we see from his statement (and he has since confirmed this on a number of occasions) that the McCanns did have high tea with the children and the nanny at around 5.30pm and that Madeleine died in the apartment after 5.30pm.  As has been discussed on here before, the nanny's evidence is suspect and there are a number of inconsistencies about what the various witnesses say about this 'high tea' (if it ever took place at all, that is).  

Further, Amaral holds that Martin Smith's sighting was genuine and that it was probably Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine that the Smiths saw.

In terms, he says: Madeleine alive at 5.30; died after that; probably Gerry was carrying Madeleine's body to the beach". 

All I will and can say on these matters is that on these specific points above, I part company with Dr Amaral's views of the relevant evidence.

I'm wondering why km says in her book that it was the Wednesday night she slept in the children's room?
Why does she say Wednesday night is the only night they stayed out later, 11:50, and gm stropped off without her?

An aerobic instructor from the resort entertains the dinner guests at Tapas with a ‘Quiz’. At 9.30 p.m. the game ends, and Gerry invites her to their table, where she stays for half an hour.
---------------------------------------

Does anyone know where the aerobics instructor SAT at the T9 'table'

I don't think she'd be 'standing' at their table, for half an hour.

NEXT to G, opposite G?

As MO and R O'B left for their 'checks' at 9:30/9:35pm that would leave only GM/DP at the table, with 6 ladies.

I wonder what they 'talked' about with Ms Chekaya.

Sports bras?

palm tree wrote:I'm wondering why km says in her book that it was the Wednesday night she slept in the children's room?
Why does she say Wednesday night is the only night they stayed out later, 11:50, and gm stropped off without her?

I do remember a quote by a bar tender, although I haven't got a link, that he was fed up with the Tapas group as they were always in the bar until 11.30 p.m. after his shift had finished.

Perhaps someone on the forum has that statement saved; I could kick myself that I never saved anything from the early days with regard to the Tapas 9 statements and newspaper articles.  It never occurred to me that we would still be here over 7 years later discussing the same things.

"Elsewhere, Dr Amaral has confirmed his view that he accepts as gospel the nanny's evidence that Madeleine was at the high tea at around 5.30pm. Amaral does not seem however to count the 'David Payne visit at 6.30pm' as true: "No other person apart from the McCanns saw Madeleine after 5.30pm"
-------------------------------------------------------------
So, WHY did DP say this?

To: Ricard Paiva
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

Leicester Police Constabulary

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there.
------------------------------------------------------
1700 hrs (5 o'clock) ?

Cannot 'remember'

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

He WAS at the BEACH, then cafe, from 4-6:15pm, so he says in his 'rog'!

HE MUST HAVE GOOD EYESIGHT THEN, TO SEE MADELEINE, 'for the LAST time' at 5pm! (FROM the beach!)

But THEN he DOES er, um, 'suddenly remembers' seeing Madeleine at 1830hrs (6:30 pm)

An HOUR and a HALF.......LATER! (when GM 'asks' him to 'check' K and the 3 kids)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And we ALSO have this from DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL

"I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."
---------------------------------------------------

FP WENT to the McCann apartment at around 1900hrs (7 o'clock) on the 3rd May.

Strangely FP does not 'mention' seeing the three little 'angels' (M&twins) when she went to McCanns apartment, at around 7pm, dressed in their predominately white, pyjamas, as her husband had 'seen' when he 'visited' the McCanns apartment at 1830hrs, to check on K and the 3 kids as asked by GM.

Perhaps the new book will possibly give us the definitive account of FP/DP 'visits' to the McCann apartment on the 3rd May, 2007
.
Or NOT?

eta:

13-Processos Volume XIII, Pages 3909-3915  
Document missing from DVD: Processo Volume XIII, Page 3909.
In a memorandum dated 24 October 2007 (Processo Volume XIII, Page 3909) reference is made to a document written by Dr David Payne which document had been read carefully by British Detective Constable Mike Marshall, the author of the memorandum.
The document written by Dr Payne is not in the DVD.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder WHAT was 'in' the document, WRITTEN by DP?

Must have been 'something' er, um, 'special' for it to NOT be released into the public 'domain' like other 'files', don't you think?

Maybe the document, WRITTEN, by DP, actually, contains the 'material truth, the few things, that he knows are relevent and pertinent to establish the material truth' about what may have happened to a 'missing' child.
--------------------------------------------------------------
DC 1485 MESSIAH : Leicestshire Police.

1485 "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth''

DP reply "Err the, there are a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up.'

1485: "Okay.............."
------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps Swan and Summers will definitively 'enlighten' us about THAT!

or NOT!

palm tree wrote:I'm wondering why km says in her book that it was the Wednesday night she slept in the children's room?
Why does she say Wednesday night is the only night they stayed out later, 11:50, and gm stropped off without her?

Possibly party to take any kind of attention of there being a tiff or row on Tuesday evening.

Possibly to explain how or why there was an unslept bed in the McCann parents's bedroom one morning or several mornings. (Maybe Kate developed a revulsion for Gerry at a certain point during the holiday, if not before....and/or vice versa, of course.). Or that someone had slept in the spare bed in the children's apartment one morning or several mornings. 

Monday and Wednesday were the days the cleaner came in to the apartment to clean/change sheets as well I presume (was it a double bed, or twin beds pushed together?)  So I imagine the cleaner would have been asked questions about beds slept in/not slept in and so on. 

Possibly to forestall any awkward questions about the Mcs having had any kind of disagreement during that week, in the event that someone had suggested that they had (maybe overhearing noise or noticing a coldness between them or something). By mentioning a little 'tiff' Kate downplays an event that could have been highly significant.

And this is probably less suspicious than stating flat-out: 'We had a perfect week up to Thursday and not a single cross word was said.'

An eye-witness or several may have seen Kate or Gerry stomping off, or Kate storming off somewhere else, for instance. 

In her book, for that evening, Kate mentions the possibility of the 'abductor' having gone into the apartment that evening to do some kind of 'dummy run' or to try to take a child that night, but not succeeding. So going back the following night - ie: Thursday.  She cites the 45 minute period between the last check and them returning to the apartment at 11.50pm as a possible time when 'something sinister could have happened'. In other words, linking this period with the crying incident when Madeleine and Sean cried and when, on Thursday morning, Madeleine asked her parents why they did not come when they cried. The suggestion being that it could have been during this period that the abductor tried to steal a child but that the children woke up and he was disturbed. 

There is always a reason for everything written in the book. And quite often the statement does contain a kernel of truth, imo, embedded in a web of obfuscation.

Newintown wrote:

palm tree wrote:I'm wondering why km says in her book that it was the Wednesday night she slept in the children's room?
Why does she say Wednesday night is the only night they stayed out later, 11:50, and gm stropped off without her?

I do remember a quote by a bar tender, although I haven't got a link, that he was fed up with the Tapas group as they were always in the bar until 11.30 p.m. after his shift had finished.

Perhaps someone on the forum has that statement saved; I could kick myself that I never saved anything from the early days with regard to the Tapas 9 statements and newspaper articles.  It never occurred to me that we would still be here over 7 years later discussing the same things.

I know Newintown, I read that too, that the bar tender never got to finish his shift on time. It's strange though that km mixed up Tuesday and Wednesday night saga. Red flag, although nearly every word from t9 are red flags!
IMO

jeanmonroe wrote:"Elsewhere, Dr Amaral has confirmed his view that he accepts as gospel the nanny's evidence that Madeleine was at the high tea at around 5.30pm. Amaral does not seem however to count the 'David Payne visit at 6.30pm' as true: "No other person apart from the McCanns saw Madeleine after 5.30pm"
-------------------------------------------------------------
So, WHY did DP say this?

To: Ricard Paiva
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

Leicester Police Constabulary

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there.
------------------------------------------------------
1700 hrs (5 o'clock) ?

Cannot 'remember'

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

He WAS at the BEACH, then cafe, from 4-6:15pm, so he says in his 'rog'!

HE MUST HAVE GOOD EYESIGHT THEN, TO SEE MADELEINE, 'for the LAST time' at 5pm! (FROM the beach!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And we ALSO have this from DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL

"I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."
---------------------------------------------------

FP WENT to the McCann apartment at around 1900hrs (7 o'clock) on the 3rd May.

Strangely FP does not 'mention' seeing the three little 'angels' (M&twins) when she went to McCanns apartment, at around 7pm, dressed in their predominately white, pyjamas, as her husband had 'seen' when he 'visited' the McCanns apartment at 1830hrs, to check on K and the 3 kids as asked by GM.

Perhaps the new book will possibly give us the definitive account of FP/DP 'visits' to the McCann apartment on the 3rd May, 2007
.
Or NOT?

eta:

13-Processos Volume XIII, Pages 3909-3915  
Document missing from DVD: Processo Volume XIII, Page 3909.
In a memorandum dated 24 October 2007 (Processo Volume XIII, Page 3909) reference is made to a document written by Dr David Payne which document had been read carefully by British Detective Constable Mike Marshall, the author of the memorandum.
The document written by Dr Payne is not in the DVD.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder WHAT was 'in' the document, WRITTEN by DP?

Must have been 'something' er, um, 'special' for it to NOT be released into the public 'domain' like other 'files', don't you think?

Maybe the document, WRITTEN, by DP, actually, contains the 'material truth, the few things, that he knows are relevent and pertinent to establish the material truth' about what may have happened to a 'missing' child.

Perhaps Swan and Summers will 'enlighten' us about THAT!

And what about the 100 second call logged to the Met Police (child abusive team?) late at night on Friday 4th May? Which David Payne can't remember? That is not recorded in any of his police statements, is it?

Seems like quite a few of the statements got changed from the initial reports to police on Friday (for instance the Tapas group and also Jez Wilkins statements) and then later reports once the ducks had been lined up and/or Mitchell did a bail out operation.

IMO

j.rob wrote:

palm tree wrote:I'm wondering why km says in her book that it was the Wednesday night she slept in the children's room?
Why does she say Wednesday night is the only night they stayed out later, 11:50, and gm stropped off without her?

Possibly party to take any kind of attention of there being a tiff or row on Tuesday evening.

Possibly to explain how or why there was an unslept bed in the McCann parents's bedroom one morning or several mornings. (Maybe Kate developed a revulsion for Gerry at a certain point during the holiday, if not before....and/or vice versa, of course.). Or that someone had slept in the spare bed in the children's apartment one morning or several mornings. 

Monday and Wednesday were the days the cleaner came in to the apartment to clean/change sheets as well I presume (was it a double bed, or twin beds pushed together?)  So I imagine the cleaner would have been asked questions about beds slept in/not slept in and so on. 

Possibly to forestall any awkward questions about the Mcs having had any kind of disagreement during that week, in the event that someone had suggested that they had (maybe overhearing noise or noticing a coldness between them or something). By mentioning a little 'tiff' Kate downplays an event that could have been highly significant.

And this is probably less suspicious than stating flat-out: 'We had a perfect week up to Thursday and not a single cross word was said.'

An eye-witness or several may have seen Kate or Gerry stomping off, or Kate storming off somewhere else, for instance. 

In her book, for that evening, Kate mentions the possibility of the 'abductor' having gone into the apartment that evening to do some kind of 'dummy run' or to try to take a child that night, but not succeeding. So going back the following night - ie: Thursday.  She cites the 45 minute period between the last check and them returning to the apartment at 11.50pm as a possible time when 'something sinister could have happened'. In other words, linking this period with the crying incident when Madeleine and Sean cried and when, on Thursday morning, Madeleine asked her parents why they did not come when they cried. The suggestion being that it could have been during this period that the abductor tried to steal a child but that the children woke up and he was disturbed. 

There is always a reason for everything written in the book. And quite often the statement does contain a kernel of truth, imo, embedded in a web of obfuscation.

Thank you j.rob, with all this confusion, something sinister must have happened, but IMO it wasn't an abductor who's to blame. I so hope something's found for evidence to put those criminals where they belong.
IMO

quote''And what about the 100 second call logged to the Met Police (child abusive team?) late at night on Friday 4th May? Which David Payne can't remember? That is not recorded in any of his police statements, is it?''

Where can I find this please?

PeterMac wrote:

Hicks wrote:I think that Madeleine died some time on Thursday during the day, possibly late afternoon, early evening. There are just too many witnesses who saw her that day, they all can't be lying.

Too many ?

From my reading there is almost no one, except K and G, who say she was alive on 3rd.
And they rather mess it up by Mitchell's insistence on the forged Last Photo, with the altered date, - prima facie evidence that something was not right -
Kate being sent on the run, the Tapas group being sent down to the Paraiso, and everyone else being made to get out of the way.
Then the family spirited away to the apartment - Madeleine being carried - just before the tapas group can make it back from their first and last tea time on the beach
The Payne "visit" is so full of holes and inconsistencies that one is allowed to doubt it happened at all.

Too much detail given by K and G. And almost nothing by anyone else.
But I am sure the new book will make it all clear !
Yet another "Version" of the truth, in fact.

You are probably correct PeterMac, however, the following did claim to have seen Madeleine on the 3rd May.

Catriona Baker- claims to have spent six hours in total with Madeleine
Philip Edwards- claims to have taken a photo of Madeleine along with his sons.
Tapas cook Manuela m Jose-  claims to have seen Madeleine having her dinner at 16.20 
Charlotte Pennington- claims to have had direct contact with Madeleine, reading her stories.
Emma Wilding- claimed to have seen GM book Madeleine in to the crèche, then saw her again in the afternoon.

I know that each of the statements taken from the above could easily be called into question, but collectively, I can't be 100% certain they were all mistaken.

Hicks wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

Hicks wrote:I think that Madeleine died some time on Thursday during the day, possibly late afternoon, early evening. There are just too many witnesses who saw her that day, they all can't be lying.

Too many ?

From my reading there is almost no one, except K and G, who say she was alive on 3rd.
And they rather mess it up by Mitchell's insistence on the forged Last Photo, with the altered date, - prima facie evidence that something was not right -
Kate being sent on the run, the Tapas group being sent down to the Paraiso, and everyone else being made to get out of the way.
Then the family spirited away to the apartment - Madeleine being carried - just before the tapas group can make it back from their first and last tea time on the beach
The Payne "visit" is so full of holes and inconsistencies that one is allowed to doubt it happened at all.

Too much detail given by K and G. And almost nothing by anyone else.
But I am sure the new book will make it all clear !
Yet another "Version" of the truth, in fact.

You are probably correct PeterMac, however, the following did claim to have seen Madeleine on the 3rd May.

Catriona Baker- claims to have spent six hours in total with Madeleine
Philip Edwards- claims to have taken a photo of Madeleine along with his sons.
Tapas cook Manuela m Jose-  claims to have seen Madeleine having her dinner at 16.20 
Charlotte Pennington- claims to have had direct contact with Madeleine, reading her stories.
Emma Wilding- claimed to have seen GM book Madeleine in to the crèche, then saw her again in the afternoon.

I know that each of the statements taken from the above could easily be called into question, but collectively, I can't be 100% certain they were all mistaken.

Hicks, I'm inclined to agree with PeterMac, there is no conclusive evidence of Madeleine presence on 3rd May.  To take your examples one by one in the order given:

The testimony of Catriona Baker is questionable.  There are circumstances outside of her position as nanny at the Ocean Club crèche, that cast doubt on her veracity.  Like the unaccountable visit to Rothley in November 2007.
Philip Edward's claim is open to doubt, where is the photograph he took of his sons featuring Madeleine?  It is not in the PJ files released in the public arena so does it really exist?
How would a Tapas cook be in a position to positively identify a child probably own seen briefly a few times, if at all?
The conflicting stories allegedly emanating from Charlotte Pennington show her to be nothing but a fantasist.
Emma Wilding as far as I know was not responsible for the daily care of MBM so again I think it unlikely that she would be familiar enough with the child or her father to be taken too seriously.

worriedmum wrote:quote''And what about the 100 second call logged to the Met Police (child abusive team?) late at night on Friday 4th May? Which David Payne can't remember? That is not recorded in any of his police statements, is it?''

Where can I find this please?

If it was David Payne's phone, are we sure it was David Payne making the call...?

Here, worried mum:

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From what I can see online about the specialist crime directorate,  they dealt with a number of specialist crimes including child abuse, serious organised crime, and kidnapping.  Do we know exactly why David Payne called this number? Playing devil's advocate,  could it have been to report a serious crime that occurred such as 'abduction' or 'kidnapping'? Although if that was the case, it's curious that he would not want to talk about having done it.