The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hi!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.


Jill Havern
Forum owner

Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by Ribisl on 08.04.12 20:19

Aiyoyo started this idea of gathering witness statements from the 3rd in order to trace Madeleine's exact whereabouts on that final day.

Kate's statement
Together we took Sean and Amelie back to the Toddler Club at around 2.40pm and dropped Madeleine off with the Minis ten minutes later. Ella was already there. Gerry and I had booked an hour-long couples' tennis lesson with the professional coach at three-thirty, and as the courts were unoccupied, we decided to have a knock-up for half an hour first. Near the end of our lesson, as I strove desperately to improve my substandard backhand, another guest appeared, and he and Gerry decided to have a game together.

Having arranged for Gerry to meet the children, I opted to go for a run along the beach, where I spotted the rest of our holiday group...
I wondered whether madeleine had been OK about staying behind at Mini Club when Russ of Jane had collected Ella...
I had finished my run by five-thirty at the Tapas area, where I found Madeleine and the twins already having their tea with Gerry...
Gerry was meeting Dave, Matt and Russell at 6pm for the men's social tennis night...
Gerry left (the apartment) just before six..."

From GM's witness statement 10th May 2007...............


They bathed the children, the deponent having left at 18H00 for a tennis game only for men, which was attended by: DAN, the tennis instructor; JULIAN, with whom he had played tennis several times; and CURTIS, with whom he had also played before.

During the afternoon of that day, the rest of the group, including the children, were at the beach, having returned at 18H30, the time at which he saw DAVID PAYNE next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, which he refused, as he had already been plying for about an hour and had to go back to his wife. Nevertheless, RUSSEL, DAVID and MATHEW stayed to play.

At around 19H00, he made his way to the apartment, finding KATE and the children playing on the sofa

Aiyoyo wrote
Gerry played a lot of tennis on 3/5 despite his injury.

According to those two statements, Gerry was hands on with Maddie on 3/5 – sent her to crèche, collected her, ate tea with her, bathed her, returned from tennis saw Kate playing with her on the sofa, yet when asked about his memorable moment with Maddie on the 3rd…he didnt mention any of these, he mentioned the “last photo”.
You would have thought his having tea with Maddie sans kate and sans the group would be the most memorable thing that would stick in his mind because that was almost pure time with his children.

K&G watched their children take tea on 3/5, then together they bathed their children, yet Kate said Wed, 2/5 was their last happy family day -doesn’t make sense at all. Were they not happy doing all that as a family of 5 on 3/5?

I couldn’t find the waiter/waitress statement anywhere about Gerry having tea alone with his children. You would have thought that must stick out for the waiter as Kate and the group weren’t there..

Why did kate deliberately mention Ella twice is a mystery. She said Ella arrived at the crèche ahead of Maddie; and that Ella left (or was collected) ahead of Maddie, and she was worried whether Maddie would be ok because Ella had already departed.
If Kate was so concerned about Maddie missing her friend Ella, why didn’t she take Maddie to the beach to join Ella and the rest of them, since she went to jog at the beach anyway?

Gerry seemed to be in a rush to join the Men that he left before 6.00pm even though he was probably in the m iddle of bathing the children, knowing very well those 3 other men were at the beach, and knowing very well those 3 could start without him – very strange!

IIRC Diane Webster said the mccanns were having a family day on 3/5, meaning they didn’t join in group activity. Leaving the children in the crèche while K&G played Tennis and Kate went jogging at the beach is hardly family day isn’t it?

So can we attempt at our own reconstruction of what Madeleine, Kate and Gerry did, when and where, that day based on available evidence?

____________________
There is a taint of death, a flavour of mortality in lies... Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad

Ribisl

Posts : 807
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-02-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by Ribisl on 08.04.12 20:20

Aiyoyo wrote:
oaquim Jose Moreira Baptista

Occupation: Waiter

Place of Work: Tapas Bar, OC

Time/Date: 18H50 2007/05/06

Portuguese National

Comes to the process as a witness. He has worked as a waiter at the Tapas restaurant since 12th Feb 2007. His shift is from 16.00 - 24.00 except for Saturdays when he works from 11.30 to 19.00. The clients who frequent the restaurant are mainly English tourists staying at the OC resort.


When asked he says that he clearly recalls the appearance of the girl's parents, he does not know their names, together with a group of English tourists who generally accompanied them, as for almost a week prior to the disappearance they would dine practically every day in the Tapas restaurant. On the occasions he saw the group dining at the restaurant he never saw the children.

When asked, he says he does not remember ever having seen Madeleine's face, which only happened when he saw her photograph after the disappearance.

I am trying to read through witnesses statements to find out who saw Maddie having tea with her dad on 3/5?
Apart from Creche staff, obviously it would have to be serving staff at Tapas, and cleaner or receptionist who might have seen her.
If no one else (apart from creche staff) had seen her, then that raises plenty questions. Far as I know cleaner were turned away by Kate on 3/5.

____________________
There is a taint of death, a flavour of mortality in lies... Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad

Ribisl

Posts : 807
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-02-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by Guest on 08.04.12 20:44


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Timeline according to PJ 57-page report summary, 21 July 2008

Post by Ribisl on 08.04.12 21:25

Madeleine's timeline for 03 May 2007
Time
Location
07:30 - 09:10
Breakfast/washing/dressing

Breakfast in the apartment and preparation for the 'Minis Club'
09:10
Madeleine arrives at the Minis Club

Madeleine arrives at the Minis Club at 09:10, brought by Gerry, according to nanny Catriona Baker.

The Minis Club is situated near the Ocean Club main reception - away from the pool, tennis courts and tapas bar area where the McCanns spent most of their time.
09:10 - 12:45
Minis Club activities

Catriona Baker states that in the same room as Madeleine, there were 6 other children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon (including Madeleine).

All the children from the Minis Club go to the beach that morning between 10:00 and 11:00, according to 24horas, based on Catriona Baker's account.

24horas continues: 'After arriving at the beach, little Maddie's group walked along the beach walk to an area where a red parasol and several sunshades were located. The children were prepared for a boat ride.

'For approximately one hour, Maddie and her mates rode in a small yellow catamaran, always under the attentive eyes of two employees.'
12:45 - 13:30
Madeleine collected from Minis Club

Madeleine is collected by Kate at 12:45 and taken for lunch back at the apartment, according to Catriona Baker's first statement on 5th May 2007.

However, when she was interviewed by Leicestershire Police on the 14th April 2008, Ms Baker stated she couldn't remember who collected Madeleine at lunchtime, nor who returned her to the creche afterwards.
13:30 - 14:50
Time beside swimming pool

According to the 'usual routine', at 13:30, with lunch over, the McCanns and the children would spend time beside the swimming pool.

Jane Tanner reports seeing the McCanns and children at the playground, beside the tennis courts, at 14:00. She says the McCanns stayed there until 14:40, when they took their children back to their respective clubs.
14:50 - 17:00
Madeleine returns to Minis Club

Catriona Baker, in her first statement in May 2007, says that Kate brought Madeleine back to the Minis Club at 14:50. But when interviewed later, in April 2008, she states that she can't remember who brought Madeleine back.

Ms Baker mentions that the children went swimming that afternoon but doesn't specifically mention Madeleine. It is unclear what she means by 'swimming', but presumably she means in a childrens swimming pool rather than the sea.

The PJ recorded the following statement from Tapas cook Manuela M.A.J. (contained on the DVD files): 'When asked she says that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approx 16h30, on 3 May 2007, when she was having dinner with the other children in their portion of the restaurant where the witness works, as happens every day of the week.'
17:00 - 17:30
'High Tea'

According to the usual routine, outlined by both Kate and Gerry, Madeleine had 'high tea' between 17:00 and 17:30 at the Tapas restaurant/bar under the parents supervision. However, this does not appear to have happened on the 3rd.

Given that Kate was observed jogging alone at 17:15 by Jane Tanner, it appears that neither McCann parent was there to 'supervise' their children's teatime on the 3rd. Kate and Gerry simply arrived to collect the children when they had finished their own sports activities.
17:30 - 17:40
Kate arrives to collect Madeleine

At 17:30, Kate collected Madeleine from the Minis Club.

Kate claims, when interviewed in September 2007, that Gerry was also there. She says they all headed back to the apartment at 17:40.
17:40 - 19:30
Bath/playtime/preparation for bed

The usual routine was for the children to be bathed before going to play for a while in the playground beside the Tapas bar. They would then return to the apartment and be prepared for bed.

We do know, from CCTV evidence, that the rest of the 'Tapas Seven', with their children, were at the Paraiso restaurant at 17:59 on 03 May and that neither the McCanns, nor their children were there.
18:30
The David Payne 'sighting' of Madeleine

David Payne is alleged to have checked on Kate and seen Madeleine in her pyjamas ready for bed. However, this crucial incident is not mentioned at all by Payne in his first police interview. Nor is it mentioned by anyone else, in their statements.
19:30 - 20:30
Madeleine put to bed

Madeleine is put to bed. Kate and Gerry wait until 20:30 before leaving for the tapas restaurant and bar
21:05 - 21:15
Madeleine asleep

Observed to be asleep by Gerry McCann
22:00 - 22:30
Madeleine reported missing

Madeleine is reported missing by Kate McCann
22:30
Query over time Madeleine was reported missing

Richard Bilton, on the BBC Panorama documentary says: "I have spoken to someone who was staying very close to flat 5A on the night of May 3rd. She says the first that she was aware of a missing child was 10.30 and she's sure of that because she says the BBC 10 o'clock news had just finished. She says that she heard Kate McCann sobbing, repeating over and over again: "We've let her down." She also says that she heard the first Portuguese policeman arrive and he said: "She must have walked out because there's no sign of a break in."

Note: Given the proximity to the event, this is almost certainly Mrs Pamela Fenn who lives in the apartment directly above the McCanns.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id28.html

____________________
There is a taint of death, a flavour of mortality in lies... Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad

Ribisl

Posts : 807
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-02-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Timeline according to PJ 57-page report summary, 21 July 2008

Post by Ribisl on 08.04.12 21:35

Kate McCann's timeline for 03 May 2007
Time
Location
07:30 - 09:00
Breakfast/washing/preparation of children

Breakfast in the apartment and preparation of children for their clubs.
09:00 - 09:30
At the tennis courts

According to Jane Tanner, Kate arrives at the tennis courts at 09:00, with Dianne Webster, and waits for Tanner to finish her lesson at 09:30
09:30 - 10:00
Tennis lesson

Kate has a tennis lesson, with Jane Tanner observing
10:00 - 12:30
Poolside

??? Towards the end of this time period it appears likely that Kate was poolside with Gerry and the tennis coach, Dan - observed by Bridget O'Donnell. (see Gerry's entry for more details)
12:30 - 12:45
Kate collects the twins

Kate collects the twins at 12:30 from the Kids Club beside the Tapas bar, according to Stacey Portz - the twins nanny.
12:45 - 13:30
Collection of Madeleine from Minis Club

Kate collects Madeleine from the Minis Club at 12:45 and returns to their apartment for lunch, according to Catriona Baker's first statement on 5th May 2007.

However, when Ms Baker was interviewed by Leicestershire Police on the 14th April 2008, she stated that she couldn't remember who collected Madeleine at lunchtime, nor who returned her to the creche afterwards.
13:30 - 14:50
Beside pool with children

According to the 'usual routine', at 13:30, with lunch over, the McCanns and the children spend time beside the swimming pool.

Jane Tanner reports seeing the McCanns and children at the playground beside the tennis courts at 14:00. She says Kate waved to her. The McCanns stayed there until 14:40, when they took their children back to the Kids Club.
14:50 - 15:45
Madeleine returns to Minis Club

Kate returns Madeleine to the Minis Club at 14:50, according to Catriona Baker in her first statement on 05 May 2007.

However, when interviewed in April 2008 Ms Baker states that she can't remember who brought Madeleine back.
14:50 - 15:45
More tennis?

??? - possibly preparing for/playing tennis with Gerry (see next entry)
15:45 - 16:30
Tennis with Gerry

Observed by Jane Tanner to be playing tennis with Gerry at 15:45 - this is not mentioned by either Kate or Gerry in their statements. Kate is reported to have left the tennis courts alone at 16:30.
16:30 - 17:30
Jogging alone

Jane Tanner says she saw Kate jogging alone on the beach at 17:15. This was the 'high tea' time for the children.
17:30 - 17:40
Collection of Madeleine from Minis Club

At 17:30, Kate collects Madeleine from the Minis Club, according to Catriona Baker. She also collects the twins at the same time, according to their nanny, Stacey Portz.

Kate McCann says in her statement to the PJ, on 06 September 2007, that she and Gerry met up around 17:30, at the crèche, to collect Madeleine, Sean and Amelie, who were just finishing their 'high tea'. They then headed back to the apartment with the children, at 17:40, and gave them a bath. Kate says that Gerry then headed back to the tennis courts, just before 18:00.
17:35 - 18:00
Time beside Tapas bar or straight return to apartment?

According to Catriona Baker, between 17:35 and 18:00, Kate went to the area near the Tapas bar and she took Madeleine with her.

However, Kate claims (see previous entry) that she returned immediately to the apartment with Gerry and the children at 17:40.
18:30
Shower/David Payne arrives

In her 06 September statement, Kate says she took a shower after Gerry had left and had just finished, around 18:30/18:40, when somebody knocked on the patio doors. Kate put a towel around herself, went to the doors and saw that it was David Payne. In her statement to the PJ on 07 September 2007, Kate says they spoke for 30 seconds and she told him that the children would not now be going to the playground area, as planned.

This incident is not mentioned by Kate or David Payne in their first police interviews.
19:30 - 20:30
Children put to bed/relaxing with New Zealand wine

The children are put to bed between 19:30 and 20:00. Kate stays in the apartment, with Gerry, to relax until 20:30. Kate says she took a bath (she'd only just had a shower!), did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with Gerry.
20:30 - 22:00
The Tapas meal/drinks

Time spent at the Tapas bar/restaurant (Meal served at 21:00 according to Tanner)
22:00 - 22:30
Kate checks and reports Madeleine missing

Kate undertakes a 'check' on Madeleine and discovers her 'missing'. Kate reportedly checks the apartment three times before she runs back to the Tapas restaurant, leaving the twins alone in an open apartment, to inform Gerry and their friends.
22:30
"We've let her down"

Kate McCann is heard sobbing, repeating over and over again: "We've let her down."

____________________
There is a taint of death, a flavour of mortality in lies... Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad

Ribisl

Posts : 807
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-02-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Timeline according to PJ 57-page report summary, 21 July 2008

Post by Ribisl on 08.04.12 21:37

Gerry McCann's timeline for 03 May 2007
Time
Location
07:30 - 09:10
Breakfast/washing/preparation of children

Breakfast in the apartment and preparation of children for their clubs.
09:10
Gerry takes Madeleine to Minis Club

Gerry arrives at the Minis Club with Madeleine at 09:10, according to Catriona Baker's first statement in May 2007. However, on 14 September 2008, she tells Leicestershire Police it was between 09:15 and 09:20.
09:10 - 10:10
???

??? - Not currently known what Gerry was doing during this period.
10:10 - 11:10
Tennis lesson No.1?

Jane Tanner says she heard, at 10:00, that Gerry had a tennis lesson from 10:10 to 11:10, although she didn't stay at the courts to see whether he attended. Gerry does not mention this in his statement.
11:10 - 12:45
Tennis with Jes Wilkins/poolside?

??? - Not specified in any statement what Gerry was doing during this period but it seems likely that this is the time Gerry played tennis with Jeremy (Jes) Wilkins, as described by his partner Bridget O'Donnell in her Guardian article.

She recounts how, after Gerry and Jes had finished playing, she and Jes sat by the pool and watched Gerry, Kate and the tennis coach, Dan, chatting about the following days tournament. She does not describe Madeleine or the twins being there so presumably this was before they had been collected for lunch.

There is no indication as to the time of this incident, so it is quite possible that it may have taken place in the early afternoon rather than late morning.
12:45 - 13:30
???

??? - Not currently known what Gerry was doing during this period.

Note: At this time Kate collects Madeleine from the Minis Club at 12:45 and returns to their apartment for lunch, according to Catriona Baker's first statement on 5th May 2007.
13:30 - 14:40
Beside pool with children

According to the 'usual routine', at 13:30, with lunch over, the McCanns and the children spend time beside the swimming pool.

Jane Tanner reports seeing the McCanns and children on the playground beside the tennis courts at 14:00. She says the McCanns stayed there until 14:40, when they took their children back to the Kids Club.
14:30
Twins return to Kids Club

Gerry takes the twins back to their Kids Club at 14:30, according to their nanny, Stacey Portz.
14:30 - 15:45
???

??? - Not currently known what Gerry was doing during this period. Possibly preparing for/playing tennis with Kate (see next entry).
15:45 - 16:30
Tennis with Kate

Observed by Jane Tanner to be playing tennis with Kate at 15:45 - this is not mentioned by either Kate or Gerry in their first statements. Kate left the courts at 16:30 but Gerry stayed on, according to information released from the DVD files by Gazeta Digital.
16:30 - 17:30
More tennis

Gerry stays on at the courts and plays with Julian, according to information released from the DVD files by Gazeta Digital.
17:30 - 19:00
Return to apartment for childrens bath?

??? - According to Kate McCanns statement to the PJ on 06 September 2007, she and Gerry met up around 17:30, at the crèche, to collect Madeleine, Sean and Amelie - who were just finishing their 'high tea'. At 17:40, they returned to their apartment, with the children, and gave them a bath - together, according to Kate. Kate says that Gerry then headed back to the tennis courts, just before 18:00.

We know from CCTV evidence that the rest of the 'Tapas Seven', with their children, were at the Paraiso restaurant at 17:59 on 03 May. Neither the McCanns, nor their children were there.

Jane Tanner reports that Russell O’Brien, Matthew Oldfield and David Payne left the Paraiso restaurant shortly after 18:00 as there was a "Men's tennis night" due to start at that precise time. When the men arrived at the courts Gerry was already playing.

Gerry himself, in his first interview in May, does not offer any clarity as to his whereabouts during this period, beyond stating that the usual routine was for the children to be bathed before going to play for a while in the playground beside the Tapas bar. They would then be returned to the apartment and prepared for bed.

It is very difficult to pin down exactly what Gerry was doing all day on the 3rd. From other peoples statements, we are left to presume that Gerry spent virtually the entire day, afternoon and early evening at the tennis courts.
18:30
Gerry asks David Payne to check on Kate

According to David Payne, at 18:30, Gerry asks him to have a look at Kate, to see if she needs any help to take the kids to the play area, near the Tapas bar.

There is no mention of this incident in any of the first statements, taken on 04 May 2007.
19:00 - 19:30
Gerry finishes tennis and returns to the apartment

At 19:00, Gerry starts a doubles match with David Payne, Russell O'Brien and Matthew Oldfield. Shortly after starting the game, Gerry decides he's had enough tennis and heads back to the apartment (at 19:20 according to Rachael Oldfield, closer to 20:00 according to Russell O'Brien). The tennis coach, Dan, takes his place in the game.
19:30 - 20:30
Children put to bed/relaxing

The children are put to bed. Kate and Gerry stay in their apartment to relax and get ready for the evening. They leave for the Tapas restaurant/bar together at 20:30.
20:30 - 21:05
The Tapas meal/drinks

At the Tapas bar/restaurant (Meal served at 21:00 according to Tanner).
21:05 - 21:20
Gerry checks on Madeleine

According to Gerry himself, in his first police interview, he enters the apartment using his key, the door being locked, and goes to the children's room. He notes that the twins and Madeleine were OK.

He then spends several minutes going to the toilet.

He leaves the apartment and bumps into Jeremy Wilkins, a man whom he had played tennis with, and has a brief conversation.

He then returns to the Tapas restauarant.
21:20 - 22:00
The Tapas meal/drinks continue

Gerry rejoins the group at the Tapas restaurant.
21:55
At approximately 21:55, Martin Smith and his family pass a man walking down the middle of the street, carrying a child, with the head against his left shoulder and the arms hanging down alongside the body, in light coloured or pink pyjamas, bare feet, pale skin typical of British and blond, shoulder-length hair; the girl is about 3-4 years old, about 1 metre tall.

After seeing TV coverage of the McCanns return to the UK, Mr Smith says he is 60-80% certain the man he saw was Gerry McCann.
22:00 - 22:30
Kate checks and reports Madeleine missing

Kate raises the alarm and Gerry returns to the apartment, with their friends. It is widely reported that this happened at 22:00 but, as detailed above, a close neighbour claims the alarm was raised closer to 22:30.

____________________
There is a taint of death, a flavour of mortality in lies... Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad

Ribisl

Posts : 807
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-02-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by Guest on 08.04.12 21:46

We have the letter or email from Phil Edmonds who said he had a picture taken of Madeleine with his children on 3rd May, it is somewhere on this forum, so googled and found it on link below...

Philip Edmonds claimed that on 3 May 2007 Madeleine was captured on a photo, together with his three boys. Despite the immense value this might have had in settling arguments about Madeleine's movements on 3 May, neither he nor the McCanns ever produced it.

http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/mccann-stella-and-one-of-her-major.html

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by Guest on 08.04.12 21:54

It is actually very strange that this photo was not produced. This may be the last photo. The boys faces could have been pix elated, it would at least gone someway to proving her whereabouts on 3rd May and the time the photo was taken.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Mrs Fenn

Post by uppatoffee on 08.04.12 22:26

Richard Bilton, on the BBC Panorama documentary says: "I have spoken to someone who was staying very close to flat 5A on the night of May 3rd. She says the first that she was aware of a missing child was 10.30 and she's sure of that because she says the BBC 10 o'clock news had just finished. She says that she heard Kate McCann sobbing, repeating over and over again: "We've let her down." She also says that she heard the first Portuguese policeman arrive and he said: "She must have walked out because there's no sign of a break in."

Did we know if Mrs Fenn spoke Portuguese? Or whether the Portugeuse Policeman said this in English? Just curious as I'd never heard this before!

uppatoffee

Posts : 626
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-09-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by tigger on 09.04.12 7:31

I also find it interesting that the ONLY two conversations - i.e. the only direct interaction reported - are on the 3rd of May.
The 'why didn't you come ..' and in the evening when she told Kate that she had learned a little dance and would show her the next day and Maddie told her as well that 'she'd had the best day ever'. Victorian melodrama isn't in it!
1) I don't believe any of this
2) a child does not wait to show you a dance or whatever they've learned or made - it's done NOW - 'look Mummy what I can do!'
3) a child of four does not have temporal awareness, she could have said that she wanted to do tomorrow what she'd done today, but not compared the highlights of her whole little life and decided that this day was the best so far.
Poor Maddie.

We have two 'conversations' to prove she was alive both in the morning and in the evening. We have David Payne backing up the 'threeness' and angelic appearance of the children that evening.
I'm more and more convinced that the crying was a trick and the abduction was meant to be the 2nd.
The whole narrative of the 3rd would then fit better. Their phone activity on the 2nd might point to this and the fact that they tend to skip over this 'last happy day as a family' in all their stories. Dr. Roberts wrote about this in '30 days'.

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.

tigger

Posts : 8112
Reputation : 26
Join date : 2011-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by tigger on 09.04.12 9:01

The first poster released on the night -the photocopied sheet with the handwritten message.

I'd never read it before:
Missing - 3 yr old, last night, please contact OC Luz. No name!!!!!!! Photograph probably 18 months out of date .. could be a boy even!

Could apply to nearly every toddler in the OC.

But why no name? Every poster for a lost cat gives the name - it would have been the only way to determine if a child you have seen might be Madeleine. By calling her name.

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.

tigger

Posts : 8112
Reputation : 26
Join date : 2011-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by Merrymo on 09.04.12 9:16

@Ribisl wrote:Aiyoyo wrote:
oaquim Jose Moreira Baptista

Occupation: Waiter

Place of Work: Tapas Bar, OC

Time/Date: 18H50 2007/05/06

Portuguese National

Comes to the process as a witness. He has worked as a waiter at the Tapas restaurant since 12th Feb 2007. His shift is from 16.00 - 24.00 except for Saturdays when he works from 11.30 to 19.00. The clients who frequent the restaurant are mainly English tourists staying at the OC resort.


When asked he says that he clearly recalls the appearance of the girl's parents, he does not know their names, together with a group of English tourists who generally accompanied them, as for almost a week prior to the disappearance they would dine practically every day in the Tapas restaurant. On the occasions he saw the group dining at the restaurant he never saw the children.

When asked, he says he does not remember ever having seen Madeleine's face, which only happened when he saw her photograph after the disappearance.

I am trying to read through witnesses statements to find out who saw Maddie having tea with her dad on 3/5?
Apart from Creche staff, obviously it would have to be serving staff at Tapas, and cleaner or receptionist who might have seen her.
If no one else (apart from creche staff) had seen her, then that raises plenty questions. Far as I know cleaner were turned away by Kate on 3/5.



Witness Statement

Maria Manuela Antonia José

Date: 06 – 05 - 2007

Place of Work: OC


She has worked at the OC, since 25 March 2006, in Luz, as a cook in one of the restaurants within the complex, called the Tapas Restaurant.

When she was informed about the disappearance she did not realise which child this was, it was only later, upon watching the television news that night and after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.

Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week.

She has no information that is of use to the investigation, and has nothing more to add, but repeats that the girl was with her parents on holiday at the resort, together with her two twin siblings.

She has no knowledge of any suspicious situation.

Reads, ratifies and signs.

Merrymo

Posts : 98
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-02-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by sami on 09.04.12 10:25

I had posted this on the David Smith thread, but Tigger asked me to copy it to here.


The independent witness is an interesting and important issue, imo. It
is something that i looked at, some time ago now, and did not have much
luck convincing myself anybody outside of the group said with certainity
they saw Madeleine that day. It is worth looking at in depth, for
sure.

Just with regard to those in the Ocean Club and Madeleine.
In my line of work we have a new in-take of students each September.
It takes a couple of weeks to put a face and a name together. The more,
let me say, boisterous students you will know immediately, the other
well behaved children take a little time. It is easy enough to
recognise and name them whilst within the school grounds. However,
during those first weeks meeting them outside of school it is often
difficult to remember who exactly they are. You know, of course, they
are a new student, but which one exactly is hard to determine.
Now
these children are older, in their teenage years, so have an individual
style, different hair cuts and colours, piercings etc. Usual teenagers.

I
suppose what I am trying to say in a very long winded way is that there
were numerous small, blond girls staying at the Ocean Club at that
time. Being realistic how many people would recognise Madeleine with
100% certaintity, having only seen her for but a couple of days. Why
would they even notice her, she would be just another small, blond girl
on holiday with her parents.

At that age, they are small, blond
and pink and often very hard to distinguish one from the other. In
fact, I would go so far as to say even the creche staff, unless they
specifically interacted and spoke to Madeleine, would just assume a
little girl to be Madeleine from afar and might not necessarily be
reliable. Likewise, the cleaners would not know her, once they saw
three children in the apartment, they would probably assume they were
all present and correct.

sami

Posts : 962
Reputation : 48
Join date : 2012-04-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by aiyoyo on 09.04.12 10:49

[quote="Ribisl"]Madeleine's timeline for 03 May 2007

Catriona Baker states that in the same room as Madeleine, there were 6 other children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon (including Madeleine).

I will have to check Stella fantastic creche thread to see whether the nr. of children in the creche as stated by CB is correct.


All the children from the Minis Club go to the beach that morning between 10:00 and 11:00, according to 24horas, based on Catriona Baker's account.
24horas continues: 'After arriving at the beach, little Maddie's group walked along the beach walk to an area where a red parasol and several sunshades were located. The children were prepared for a boat ride.
'For approximately one hour, Maddie and her mates rode in a small yellow catamaran, always under the attentive eyes of two employees.'
12:45 - 13:30
Madeleine collected from Minis Club

24 Horas reporting may not be accurate. I remember reading (not sure where now, could even be back in 3As days) that there was no boat trip on 3/5. It was not on schedule or was cancelled. They did have a boat trip but not 3/5. For that, we will have to look up PJ files for the days scheduled boat trip - I will have a go later, unless someone else can recall better..

Madeleine is collected by Kate at 12:45 and taken for lunch back at the apartment, according to Catriona Baker's first statement on 5th May 2007.
However, when she was interviewed by Leicestershire Police on the 14th April 2008, Ms Baker stated she couldn't remember who collected Madeleine at lunchtime, nor who returned her to the creche afterwards.
13:30 - 14:50

According to the kate's statement" Together we took Sean and Amelie back to the Toddler Club at around 2.40pm and dropped Madeleine off with the Minis ten minutes later."

Jane Tanner reports seeing the McCanns and children at the playground, beside the tennis courts, at 14:00. She says the McCanns stayed there until 14:40, when they took their children back to their respective clubs.

So Jane's statement here synchronized with kate's statement that together with Gerry, they took their children to afternoon creche.



The PJ recorded the following statement from Tapas cook Manuela M.A.J. (contained on the DVD files): 'When asked she says that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approx 16h30, on 3 May 2007, when she was having dinner with the other children in their portion of the restaurant where the witness works, as happens every day of the week.'
17:00 - 17:30
'High Tea'

This is not in accord with Kate's statement, who said that "Having arranged for Gerry to meet the children, I opted to go for a run along the beach, where I spotted the rest of our holiday group...
I wondered whether madeleine had been OK about staying behind at Mini Club when Russ of Jane had collected Ella...
I had finished my run by five-thirty at the Tapas area, where I found Madeleine and the twins already having their tea with Gerry...

So according to Kate she went to the bar after she'd finished jogging, and saw Gerry having tea with Madeleine and the twins, sans the T7 and their children since she'd run into them at the beach only moments earlier.
That begs the question - who were the "other children" the Tapas cook Manuela MAJ referred to? It cant be the rest of the group as they were at the beach.

So it cant have been crowded at tea time on 3/5 minus T7 and their children as the afternoon creche recorded only 4 children according to CB's statement. Again I will have to take a look at Stella's creche thread to confirm CB is correct.


According to the usual routine, outlined by both Kate and Gerry, Madeleine had 'high tea' between 17:00 and 17:30 at the Tapas restaurant/bar under the parents supervision. However, this does not appear to have happened on the 3rd.


That is partially correct, as the rest of the group was at the Beach.

Given that Kate was observed jogging alone at 17:15 by Jane Tanner, it appears that neither McCann parent was there to 'supervise' their children's teatime on the 3rd. Kate and Gerry simply arrived to collect the children when they had finished their own sports activities.
17:30 - 17:40
Kate arrives to collect Madeleine

This is not entirely correct 'cos according to Kate's statement, Gerry was dispatched to collect their children and she saw them having tea at the Tapas area when she got back from jogging.


Kate claims, when interviewed in September 2007, that Gerry was also there. She says they all headed back to the apartment at 17:40.

17:40 - 19:30
Bath/playtime/preparation for bed
The usual routine was for the children to be bathed before going to play for a while in the playground beside the Tapas bar. They would then return to the apartment and be prepared for bed.

Apparently that did not take place on 3/5, which is a break from norm then!


18:30
The David Payne 'sighting' of Madeleine

Not independent witness, so we can discount that.
Even though that visit, and the inconsistencies in kate and david's statements about that visit raised plenty questions, that could at most account for motive for that visit, or lack of visit but the mention of it for their agenda.

.
David Payne is alleged to have checked on Kate and seen Madeleine in her pyjamas ready for bed. However, this crucial incident is not mentioned at all by Payne in his first police interview. Nor is it mentioned by anyone else, in their statements.
19:30 - 20:30
Madeleine put to bed

Madeleine is put to bed. Kate and Gerry wait until 20:30 before leaving for the tapas restaurant and bar
21:05 - 21:15
Madeleine asleep

According to GM's witness statement 10th May 2007...............
"During the afternoon of that day, the rest of the group, including the children, were at the beach, having returned at 18H30, the time at which he saw DAVID PAYNE next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, which he refused, as he had already been plying for about an hour and had to go back to his wife. Nevertheless, RUSSEL, DAVID and MATHEW stayed to play.

At around 19H00, he made his way to the apartment, finding KATE and the children playing on the sofa"

[i]Maddie couldnt have been put to bed at 7.05 if Gerry made his way back from Tennis Court at 7.00, he would have arrived a few minutes and found Kate and the children playing on the sofa.
Also, for DP to arrive back at the Tennis Court at 7.00 he must left 5A only a few minutes earlier unless he detoured elsewhere.

Where did DP say he saw the mccanns' children all dressed in white? in the bedroom or on the sofa?
Not that this has anything to do with independent witness. I'm trying to establish whether his story tallies with Gerry. If he saw the children sleeping in their bedroom, how could Gerry arrived minutes later to find them playing on the sofa with Kate?

Two things stood out for me here:
DP said they were all dressed in white, angelic looking, but wasn't Maddie reported to be in "Pink" pyjamas when she was taken?

When Gerry headed off at 7.00 he said he couldn't be persuaded to stay on because he'd already played for on hour (presumably 6 - 7pm), but he also said the men arrived back from the beach at 6.30, so who was he playing with for the first 1/2 hour between 6.00 to 6.30 pm?
All very confusing their statements, no wonder the Police knew it's yarn they were spinning.


Since this thread is about independent witness, it's probably better to narrow it down to concentrate on daytime witnesses, and not look at anything past 6.30 (DP's visit).
Creche staff, kitchen staff, waiting staff, and receptionist and any other witnesses statements. So far apart from CB the nanny who claimed to have Maddie in the Creche on the 3/5 I have yet to come across an independent witness who can say definitely that the girl having tea at Tapas was definitely Maddie.

If even CB cannot remember which of her parents brought her in, was she brought in at all?
The waiting staff and cook not distinguishing the children might be normal as most children that age look alike from a distance, unless you are in close daily contact with them.
Also if all the parents were there with the children at tea, how do staff make out which child belongs to which parents unless the child was seated right next to their respective parents.
In the case of mccanns with three children, seeing the parents does not naturally mean it can be taken for granted all three children were there.

I suggest maybe posting up of independent witness statements will be useful to help narrow down who did and did not see Maddie during the daytime of 3/5.

Oh, just thought of it, if there was a boat trip on the 3/5 as alleged, surely the boatman must have been interviewed?
I dont remember seeing that. Anyone?.

aiyoyo

Posts : 9611
Reputation : 318
Join date : 2009-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by tigger on 09.04.12 10:57

The nanny who took the children to the beach for the boat trip initially said that Maddie cried and was afraid of water? Something like that.
Then in a later statement she said she wasn't sure it was Maddie.

No idea where to find this... pray2

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.

tigger

Posts : 8112
Reputation : 26
Join date : 2011-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by aiyoyo on 09.04.12 11:04

@tigger wrote:The nanny who took the children to the beach for the boat trip initially said that Maddie cried and was afraid of water? Something like that.
Then in a later statement she said she wasn't sure it was Maddie.

No idea where to find this... pray2

Me too, not too good at finding statements. Maybe Stella will come along and give us a helping hand, since she is brilliant at research.

aiyoyo

Posts : 9611
Reputation : 318
Join date : 2009-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by Guest on 09.04.12 11:14

@aiyoyo wrote:
@tigger wrote:The nanny who took the children to the beach for the boat trip initially said that Maddie cried and was afraid of water? Something like that.
Then in a later statement she said she wasn't sure it was Maddie.

No idea where to find this... pray2

Me too, not too good at finding statements. Maybe Stella will come along and give us a helping hand, since she is brilliant at research.

aiyoyo, Stella is no longer here. The question was asked just a couple of days ago and before that in March.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4664-a-good-question-from-womandotcom

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by aiyoyo on 09.04.12 11:39

@sami wrote:I had posted this on the David Smith thread, but Tigger asked me to copy it to here.


The independent witness is an interesting and important issue, imo. It
is something that i looked at, some time ago now, and did not have much
luck convincing myself anybody outside of the group said with certainity
they saw Madeleine that day. It is worth looking at in depth, for
sure.

Just with regard to those in the Ocean Club and Madeleine.
In my line of work we have a new in-take of students each September.
It takes a couple of weeks to put a face and a name together. The more,
let me say, boisterous students you will know immediately, the other
well behaved children take a little time. It is easy enough to
recognise and name them whilst within the school grounds. However,
during those first weeks meeting them outside of school it is often
difficult to remember who exactly they are. You know, of course, they
are a new student, but which one exactly is hard to determine.
Now
these children are older, in their teenage years, so have an individual
style, different hair cuts and colours, piercings etc. Usual teenagers.

I
suppose what I am trying to say in a very long winded way is that there
were numerous small, blond girls staying at the Ocean Club at that
time. Being realistic how many people would recognise Madeleine with
100% certaintity, having only seen her for but a couple of days. Why
would they even notice her, she would be just another small, blond girl
on holiday with her parents.

At that age, they are small, blond
and pink and often very hard to distinguish one from the other. In
fact, I would go so far as to say even the creche staff, unless they
specifically interacted and spoke to Madeleine, would just assume a
little girl to be Madeleine from afar and might not necessarily be
reliable. Likewise, the cleaners would not know her, once they saw
three children in the apartment, they would probably assume they were
all present and correct.

I have to say that is true 'cos I worked with young children, and with the start of each new academic year I struggle to recognise their faces or put names to faces until at least a few weeks later, and I take even longer to associate child to parents.

I would imagine unless the creche staff remains the same throughout the week ,a new nanny every day would struggle to distinguish the children, let alone associate child to parents.

As for cook, and waiting staff etc if waiting staff struggles to distinguish one blond child from the next, then cook stands a lesser chance if they had seen the child from a distance. That is not to say this is the rule, because of course there is exception to the rule.
Depends whether the cook/waiter/receptionist whatever has ever come into close contact with the child as in having conversation with the child. Someone who have had conversation with a child is more likely to remember the child or be aware of the child's identity.


aiyoyo

Posts : 9611
Reputation : 318
Join date : 2009-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by sami on 09.04.12 12:45

@aiyoyo wrote: I have to say that is true 'cos I worked with young children, and with the start of each new academic year I struggle to recognise their faces or put names to faces until at least a few weeks later, and I take even longer to associate child to parents.

I would imagine unless the creche staff remains the same throughout the week ,a new nanny every day would struggle to distinguish the children, let alone associate child to parents.

As for cook, and waiting staff etc if waiting staff struggles to distinguish one blond child from the next, then cook stands a lesser chance if they had seen the child from a distance. That is not to say this is the rule, because of course there is exception to the rule.
Depends whether the cook/waiter/receptionist whatever has ever come into close contact with the child as in having conversation with the child. Someone who have had conversation with a child is more likely to remember the child or be aware of the child's identity.


Aiyoyo, absolutely, there is always exception to the rule. I just feel in a holiday atmosphere everything is much more lax.

I holiday every year with another family, each of us having three boys all very similar ages. There have been many times when staff where we have been staying have remarked to me about my having six boys and all so close in age. The staff have got used to seeing me with a gaggle of six little boys under the age of 8 and to them the children all look very similar. They are all fair, blue eyed boys and people assume they are brothers and all mine because I am with them.

Now I make it easy for the staff. I have children with me 24/7! The staff never see me alone, the kids are not in a creche so they will see us all regularly, at the pool, playing football, eating at the restaurant. In fact they probably would not know me if they saw me without a child, during any given day I will range from having three to six children with me. Likewise for my friend on the days she takes them all to the shop etc.

I struggle to see any family time at all during the McCann holiday. It seems to me the only time parents and children were seen together in public was during drop off and collection from the creche. So really, how used were any of the staff to seeing the McCann family as just that - a family unit.

All in all in a holiday setting, people accept what they see and do not question it. Tourists are for the most part annonomous, almost faceless people to the locals. I do not for one second mean this to be an unkind statement about the Portugese people, we have had many wonderful holidays there. It is true for all holiday destinations. Tourists are transient people, coming and going, being replaced every seven, fourteen, twenty one days. They are just another plane load of people descending on to the resort.

In this case it is suddenly important but that is only with hindsight so unless there was a specific reason to have noticed the McCann family and in particular Madeleine during their stay, I think it will be hard to separate what has been assumed by staff (with the best of intentions) and what is fact - as regards sightings of Madeleine on that day.

sami

Posts : 962
Reputation : 48
Join date : 2012-04-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by Nina on 09.04.12 13:21

@sami wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote: I have to say that is true 'cos I worked with young children, and with the start of each new academic year I struggle to recognise their faces or put names to faces until at least a few weeks later, and I take even longer to associate child to parents.

I would imagine unless the creche staff remains the same throughout the week ,a new nanny every day would struggle to distinguish the children, let alone associate child to parents.

As for cook, and waiting staff etc if waiting staff struggles to distinguish one blond child from the next, then cook stands a lesser chance if they had seen the child from a distance. That is not to say this is the rule, because of course there is exception to the rule.
Depends whether the cook/waiter/receptionist whatever has ever come into close contact with the child as in having conversation with the child. Someone who have had conversation with a child is more likely to remember the child or be aware of the child's identity.


Aiyoyo, absolutely, there is always exception to the rule. I just feel in a holiday atmosphere everything is much more lax.

I holiday every year with another family, each of us having three boys all very similar ages. There have been many times when staff where we have been staying have remarked to me about my having six boys and all so close in age. The staff have got used to seeing me with a gaggle of six little boys under the age of 8 and to them the children all look very similar. They are all fair, blue eyed boys and people assume they are brothers and all mine because I am with them.

Now I make it easy for the staff. I have children with me 24/7! The staff never see me alone, the kids are not in a creche so they will see us all regularly, at the pool, playing football, eating at the restaurant. In fact they probably would not know me if they saw me without a child, during any given day I will range from having three to six children with me. Likewise for my friend on the days she takes them all to the shop etc.

I struggle to see any family time at all during the McCann holiday. It seems to me the only time parents and children were seen together in public was during drop off and collection from the creche. So really, how used were any of the staff to seeing the McCann family as just that - a family unit.

All in all in a holiday setting, people accept what they see and do not question it. Tourists are for the most part annonomous, almost faceless people to the locals. I do not for one second mean this to be an unkind statement about the Portugese people, we have had many wonderful holidays there. It is true for all holiday destinations. Tourists are transient people, coming and going, being replaced every seven, fourteen, twenty one days. They are just another plane load of people descending on to the resort.

In this case it is suddenly important but that is only with hindsight so unless there was a specific reason to have noticed the McCann family and in particular Madeleine during their stay, I think it will be hard to separate what has been assumed by staff (with the best of intentions) and what is fact - as regards sightings of Madeleine on that day.

and

____________________
Not one more cent from me.

Nina

Posts : 2658
Reputation : 223
Join date : 2011-06-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by russiandoll on 09.04.12 14:29

A poster said he/she was trying to find witness statement [s] confirming that Maddie was at children's tea with her father May 3rd late afternoon/early evening .

Merrymo highlighted the following as part of a response, the entire response was a quote from witness statement, therefore supposedly deemed sufficient to answer the above question

Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week.

Merrymo then quoted the following......
She has no information that is of use to the investigation, and has nothing more to add, but repeats that the girl was with her parents on holiday at the resort, together with her two twin siblings

How does this answer the request for info from a witness re Gerry being present at the childrens tea?
It is a general statement about Maddie being there with her family.
It actually gives more credence to the fact Gerry was not there...the witness states she was with other children, no mention of a parent.
As Merrymo did not comment on this statement from a witness, I am lost as to the reason for the post ; if it was supposed to confirm Gerry's presence, it did nothing of the sort.

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2011-09-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 09.04.12 14:41

@Ribisl wrote:Madeleine's timeline for 03 May 2007
Time
Location
07:30 - 09:10
Breakfast/washing/dressing

Breakfast in the apartment and preparation for the 'Minis Club'
09:10
Madeleine arrives at the Minis Club

Madeleine arrives at the Minis Club at 09:10, brought by Gerry, according to nanny Catriona Baker.

The Minis Club is situated near the Ocean Club main reception - away from the pool, tennis courts and tapas bar area where the McCanns spent most of their time.
09:10 - 12:45
Minis Club activities

Catriona Baker states that in the same room as Madeleine, there were 6 other children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon (including Madeleine).

All the children from the Minis Club go to the beach that morning between 10:00 and 11:00, according to 24horas, based on Catriona Baker's account.

24horas continues: 'After arriving at the beach, little Maddie's group walked along the beach walk to an area where a red parasol and several sunshades were located. The children were prepared for a boat ride.

'For approximately one hour, Maddie and her mates rode in a small yellow catamaran, always under the attentive eyes of two employees.'
12:45 - 13:30
Madeleine collected from Minis Club

Madeleine is collected by Kate at 12:45 and taken for lunch back at the apartment, according to Catriona Baker's first statement on 5th May 2007.

However, when she was interviewed by Leicestershire Police on the 14th April 2008, Ms Baker stated she couldn't remember who collected Madeleine at lunchtime, nor who returned her to the creche afterwards.
13:30 - 14:50
Time beside swimming pool

According to the 'usual routine', at 13:30, with lunch over, the McCanns and the children would spend time beside the swimming pool.

Jane Tanner reports seeing the McCanns and children at the playground, beside the tennis courts, at 14:00. She says the McCanns stayed there until 14:40, when they took their children back to their respective clubs.
14:50 - 17:00
Madeleine returns to Minis Club

Catriona Baker, in her first statement in May 2007, says that Kate brought Madeleine back to the Minis Club at 14:50. But when interviewed later, in April 2008, she states that she can't remember who brought Madeleine back.

Ms Baker mentions that the children went swimming that afternoon but doesn't specifically mention Madeleine. It is unclear what she means by 'swimming', but presumably she means in a childrens swimming pool rather than the sea.

The PJ recorded the following statement from Tapas cook Manuela M.A.J. (contained on the DVD files): 'When asked she says that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approx 16h30, on 3 May 2007, when she was having dinner with the other children in their portion of the restaurant where the witness works, as happens every day of the week.'
17:00 - 17:30
'High Tea'

According to the usual routine, outlined by both Kate and Gerry, Madeleine had 'high tea' between 17:00 and 17:30 at the Tapas restaurant/bar under the parents supervision. However, this does not appear to have happened on the 3rd.

Given that Kate was observed jogging alone at 17:15 by Jane Tanner, it appears that neither McCann parent was there to 'supervise' their children's teatime on the 3rd. Kate and Gerry simply arrived to collect the children when they had finished their own sports activities.
17:30 - 17:40
Kate arrives to collect Madeleine

At 17:30, Kate collected Madeleine from the Minis Club.

Kate claims, when interviewed in September 2007, that Gerry was also there. She says they all headed back to the apartment at 17:40.
17:40 - 19:30
Bath/playtime/preparation for bed

The usual routine was for the children to be bathed before going to play for a while in the playground beside the Tapas bar. They would then return to the apartment and be prepared for bed.

We do know, from CCTV evidence, that the rest of the 'Tapas Seven', with their children, were at the Paraiso restaurant at 17:59 on 03 May and that neither the McCanns, nor their children were there.
18:30
The David Payne 'sighting' of Madeleine

David Payne is alleged to have checked on Kate and seen Madeleine in her pyjamas ready for bed. However, this crucial incident is not mentioned at all by Payne in his first police interview. Nor is it mentioned by anyone else, in their statements.
19:30 - 20:30
Madeleine put to bed

Madeleine is put to bed. Kate and Gerry wait until 20:30 before leaving for the tapas restaurant and bar
21:05 - 21:15
Madeleine asleep

Observed to be asleep by Gerry McCann
22:00 - 22:30
Madeleine reported missing

Madeleine is reported missing by Kate McCann
22:30
Query over time Madeleine was reported missing

Richard Bilton, on the BBC Panorama documentary says: "I have spoken to someone who was staying very close to flat 5A on the night of May 3rd. She says the first that she was aware of a missing child was 10.30 and she's sure of that because she says the BBC 10 o'clock news had just finished. She says that she heard Kate McCann sobbing, repeating over and over again: "We've let her down." She also says that she heard the first Portuguese policeman arrive and he said: "She must have walked out because there's no sign of a break in."

Note: Given the proximity to the event, this is almost certainly Mrs Pamela Fenn who lives in the apartment directly above the McCanns.


[url=http://www.mccannfiles.com/id28.html
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id28.html[/quote[/url]]

Houston, we have a problem - yet more inconsitencies! I have just been reading 'Who took the tennis court Photo' - HiDeHo's video makes claims that from Rachel's statement, Maddie was at mini-tennis in the morning, she saw her. Yet the nanny claims they were all on a boat trip at the beach. Both cannot be true.

Yet more of Gerry's fabled 'confusion'.

____________________
"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.

rainbow-fairy

Posts : 1971
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2011-05-26
Age : 42
Location : going round in circles

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 09.04.12 14:43

@russiandoll wrote: A poster said he/she was trying to find witness statement [s] confirming that Maddie was at children's tea with her father May 3rd late afternoon/early evening .

Merrymo highlighted the following as part of a response, the entire response was a quote from witness statement, therefore supposedly deemed sufficient to answer the above question

Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week.

Merrymo then quoted the following......
She has no information that is of use to the investigation, and has nothing more to add, but repeats that the girl was with her parents on holiday at the resort, together with her two twin siblings

How does this answer the request for info from a witness re Gerry being present at the childrens tea?
It is a general statement about Maddie being there with her family.
It actually gives more credence to the fact Gerry was not there...the witness states she was with other children, no mention of a parent.
As Merrymo did not comment on this statement from a witness, I am lost as to the reason for the post ; if it was supposed to confirm Gerry's presence, it did nothing of the sort.

Par for the course with Merrymo's posts unfortunately

____________________
"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.

rainbow-fairy

Posts : 1971
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2011-05-26
Age : 42
Location : going round in circles

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by aiyoyo on 09.04.12 15:28

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm

3 to 6 Witness statement IntervieW008.04.18
Witness Statement of Catriona Baker April 18 2008

I never saw Kate or Gerry in a car in Portugal. I visited the family in their home at their invitation to see how they were getting along in November of 2007. That was the first time I saw them in a car.

On Thursday the 3rd of May 2007, I remember Gerry having accompanied Madeleine to the club between 9h15 and 9h20 in the morning. I do not remember who came to pick her up for lunch but after she returned in the afternoon for a dive/swim. These activities were realized with the other children. On this day I remember that we sailed and I saw friends of the McCanns on the beach, David and Jane. Around 14h45 Madeleine returned to the Minis Club on top of the reception but I do not remember who accompanied her. This afternoon we went swimming. Kate went to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar area and according to what I remember she was wearing sporting clothes and I assumed that she was practicing some form of athletics. It was around 15h25/18h00. I think that Gerry was playing tennis.


Few points:
This statement from Cat Baker taken on 18 April 2008 was post her visit to Rothley in Nov 2007.

She said "Kate went to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar, which btw sychns with kate's own statement that she went to the Tapas area after having finished her jog at the beach at 5.30 - coincidence?

I asked that because in the next line she said " It was around 15h25/18h00. I think that Gerry was playing tennis" - meaning this must have been the the time Kate arrived to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar. As she did not see Gerry, she " thinks Gerry was playing tennis" which effectively cancels out her testimony about having seen Kate at the Tapas Bar.

Cat Baker couldn't possibly have seen Kate there and not seen Gerry since Gerry was already there before kate,
because according to Kate's statement "she had sent Gerry to get the children as she opted to go for a jog, and arrived at the Tapas area at 5.30 (from the beach after she finished her jog ) to find Gerry having tea with Madeleine and the Twins".
So how can Cat Baker have seen Kate and not Gerry? Impossible!

She had assumed Gerry was playing Tennis, but according to Gerry's statement, both him and kate were bathing their children after tea, before gerry left just before 6.00 to join Men's tennis (according to Kate). So evidently he'd stayed at the tapas area with his children throughout from the moment he fetched them to taking them back to apt for bath. Who is lying here?

Isn't it strange no one witnessed Gerry alone having tea with his children (sans the group and the other children because they were at the beach) before being joined by Kate later?

Cat Baker's statement is very vague as though someone put her up to it. But I cant imagine why anyone would do that?

If Gerry was not at the Tapas area having tea with his children as Kate claimed, is Kate covering up for Gerry's movement?


aiyoyo

Posts : 9611
Reputation : 318
Join date : 2009-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Who saw Madeleine on the 3rd of May?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 09.04.12 15:39

@aiyoyo wrote:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm

3 to 6 Witness statement IntervieW008.04.18
Witness Statement of Catriona Baker April 18 2008

I never saw Kate or Gerry in a car in Portugal. I visited the family in their home at their invitation to see how they were getting along in November of 2007. That was the first time I saw them in a car.

On Thursday the 3rd of May 2007, I remember Gerry having accompanied Madeleine to the club between 9h15 and 9h20 in the morning. I do not remember who came to pick her up for lunch but after she returned in the afternoon for a dive/swim. These activities were realized with the other children. On this day I remember that we sailed and I saw friends of the McCanns on the beach, David and Jane. Around 14h45 Madeleine returned to the Minis Club on top of the reception but I do not remember who accompanied her. This afternoon we went swimming. Kate went to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar area and according to what I remember she was wearing sporting clothes and I assumed that she was practicing some form of athletics. It was around 15h25/18h00. I think that Gerry was playing tennis.


Few points:
This statement from Cat Baker taken on 18 April 2008 was post her visit to Rothley in Nov 2007.

She said "Kate went to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar, which btw sychns with kate's own statement that she went to the Tapas area after having finished her jog at the beach at 5.30 - coincidence?

I asked that because in the next line she said " It was around 15h25/18h00. I think that Gerry was playing tennis" - meaning this must have been the the time Kate arrived to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar. As she did not see Gerry, she " thinks Gerry was playing tennis" which effectively cancels out her testimony about having seen Kate at the Tapas Bar.

Cat Baker couldn't possibly have seen Kate there and not seen Gerry since Gerry was already there before kate,
because according to Kate's statement "she had sent Gerry to get the children as she opted to go for a jog, and arrived at the Tapas area at 5.30 (from the beach after she finished her jog ) to find Gerry having tea with Madeleine and the Twins".
So how can Cat Baker have seen Kate and not Gerry? Impossible!

She had assumed Gerry was playing Tennis, but according to Gerry's statement, both him and kate were bathing their children after tea, before gerry left just before 6.00 to join Men's tennis (according to Kate). So evidently he'd stayed at the tapas area with his children throughout from the moment he fetched them to taking them back to apt for bath. Who is lying here?

Isn't it strange no one witnessed Gerry alone having tea with his children (sans the group and the other children because they were at the beach) before being joined by Kate later?

Cat Baker's statement is very vague as though someone put her up to it. But I cant imagine why anyone would do that?

If Gerry was not at the Tapas area having tea with his children as Kate claimed, is Kate covering up for Gerry's movement?


Absolutely she is. IMO...

____________________
"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.

rainbow-fairy

Posts : 1971
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2011-05-26
Age : 42
Location : going round in circles

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum