Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

by j.rob 23.11.14 22:05

The police know what went on, imo. Why would Robert Murat - a bilingual police translator for Norfolk Police 'just happen' to appear on the scene that week and translate witness statements!

Wow! How amazing. A man who knows the area incredibly well and has many connections. What a coincidence!

And it just so happens that the McCanns are so pally with Leics police that they are on first name terms with Stuart Prior from Leics police and there is a lovely little symbiotic relationship going on, at least in the early weeks/months. With holiday-makers sending in their photos to Leics police. Nice!

Oh well, it all stinks.

Paid for by the British tax-payer! Yeah, great.

by BigRon 23.11.14 22:13

I think there had been a plan to stage the abduction with open shutters and whooshing curtains etc (probably on the following night) and each had rehearsed their lines but it all became forced and rushed with Kate's hysterical reaction.

People then enter the apartment and see no Maddie so the whole abduction story has to start from that moment - no time to prepare or corroborate stories so there's a hastily written reminder of the timeline scribbled down so they all know what they're supposed to say...

All their best laid plans as well...

"It's a disaster!"

by jeanmonroe 24.11.14 13:23

BigRon wrote:I think there had been a plan to stage the abduction with open shutters and whooshing curtains etc (probably on the following night) and each had rehearsed their lines but it all became forced and rushed with Kate's hysterical reaction.

People then enter the apartment and see no Maddie so the whole abduction story has to start from that moment - no time to prepare or corroborate stories so there's a hastily written reminder of the timeline scribbled down so they all know what they're supposed to say...

All their best laid plans as well...

"It's a disaster!"

Ah yes, my fave 'bugbear'.........the TWO 'hand written' timelines. (R O'B)

8:45pm.........'ALL assembled at poolside'......................TWICE!.

Except, of course, they were NOT all 'assembled' at poolside, at 8:45pm, were they?

Paynes, all THREE, were NOT 'there'

And JT even says that the 'writer' of timelines, her 'partner' R O'B, himself, was NOT 'there' until 9:00pm.

GM then 'pens' his name, personally, to the second R O'B 'timeline' sitting at same table as R O'B with DP, confirming that at '9:20pm JT sees stranger, walking with a child'

Yet, YET, HOURS after this 'timeline' is given to GNR/PJ, we have this,

Prior to the PJ arriving at 12:40/12:50 Russell O'Brien has written the timeline for them all, including, "Jane tanner sees stranger walking carrying child." He does this while Gerry McCann SITS AT THE SAME TABLE.

At three o' clock in the morning Jane Tanner informs Gerry McCann for the first time, about the existence of a possible abductor.

The nitty gritty.

4078 (Leic plod) “Sorry, was that on the night that Madeleine had disappeared?”

JT.“That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah”.

LP. "So when you went into Gerry and Kate’s apartment who else was there?”

JT. “Erm, I think there was Russ, I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who was the translator.

I can’t remember which, there was some, there was a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table.And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.

LP. “And how was Gerry at that point?”

JT.“Oh he was just, well obviously, obviously distraught.
And I think it was quite hard for me to be saying at that, you know, looking in his face and to be explaining what I’d seen, at that point was quite hard because, you know, Gerry was obviously standing there..."

LP. “And what was Gerry’s reaction to what you said?”

JT. “Well I don’t even know whether he took it in, I mean, he was just, he was, you know, obviously just standing there looking absolutely horrified, so”.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Prior to the PJ arriving at 12:40/12:50 Russell O'Brien has written the timeline for them all, including, "Jane tanner sees stranger walking carrying child." He does this while Gerry McCann sits at the same table.

AT THREE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING (4th MAY, 2007) JANE TANNER INFORMS GERRY MCCANN FOR THE FIRST TIME ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF A POSSIBLE 'ABDUCTOR'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO, GM who has 'penned' his name on the second 'timeline', (at 00:40/50 am) 4th May 2007, that INCLUDES JT 'sighting' is 'ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIED' to 'learn', at 3:00am, that JT has 'seen' a 'stranger walking, carrying a child' HOURS earlier!

So, 'jemmied, smashed, forced' shutter,'broken into' (thanks to Jill R) 'crib sheets' contradictions, discrepancies etc, and THAT'S only the 'first' night!

So you'd 'think' the only way from 'here' was UP, wouldn't you?

THEN we 'find' these two GEMS, almost a year LATER::

" Err in my opinion, you know, IF this was, IF there WAS any foul play bestowed on THEM" (McCanns)

RUSSELL JAMES O'BRIEN SIGNED Rogatory interview STATEMENT 08/04/08

and:

Person Interviewed: David PAYNE
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters,
Date of Interview: 11.04.08

"............you know because again this is something that we've talked about, you know, IF she (Madeleine) WAS abducted you know, sorry...."

Such a small 'word' IF, isn't it?

HOBBBBBSSS!

You'd 'think' they would have got their 'story' STRAIGHT/RIGHT, almost a year later, wouldn't you?

Imo, a badly written 'tale' and even more badly written ~~CRIB SHEETS~~ er, 'timelines'!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by j.rob 24.11.14 22:25

BigRon wrote:I think there had been a plan to stage the abduction with open shutters and whooshing curtains etc (probably on the following night) and each had rehearsed their lines but it all became forced and rushed with Kate's hysterical reaction.

People then enter the apartment and see no Maddie so the whole abduction story has to start from that moment - no time to prepare or corroborate stories so there's a hastily written reminder of the timeline scribbled down so they all know what they're supposed to say...

All their best laid plans as well...

"It's a disaster!"

Yes - the plan must have been to have jemmied shutters. So either somebody didn't do what they were supposed to - maybe got cold feet and bailed out, maybe got interrupted. And, because there was a last-minute panic, the McCanns and Tapas didn't have time to inform relatives at home that no-one had jemmied the shutters after all. 'A disaster' had occurred and the script was hastily rewritten. Incredibly badly, imo.

The fact that they made such a mess of the timelines and the fact that the shutters weren't jemmied suggests to me that something happened right at the last minute to mess up the script.

And that *something* has something to do with Jes Wilkins, imo. It is simply too much of a coincidence that BOTH Kate and Gerry AND Jane Tanner all claim that they saw Jes Wilkins pushing his pram around and that Jez just *happens* - according to the McCanns and Jane Tanner - to have bumped into Gerry right outside the McCanns apartment just after Gerry's alleged final check at 9.05pm. (And yet, amazingly, Jes did not see Jane Tanner or Tanner-man! And Jes and Jane Tanner think Jes was on the side of the road next to the apartment, whereas Gerry insists they were talking on the other side of the road!)

Jes Wilkins is/was implicated in some way in 'the script', imo. Maybe he was even supposed to 'jemmy' the shutters? Or maybe he arrived on the scene to prevent someone from 'jemmying' shutters? Or something.

Kate crying out: "the bastards have taken her" (was this at around 9.15pm?) this does not really make sense if the McCanns and Tapas are following a pre-arranged script. If 'the disaster' hadn't happened then surely Kate would have raised the alarm at 9.15pm (earliest witnesses hear commotion) by crying out that someone or several people had broken into the apartment and stolen Madeleine?

Not by crying out: "the bastards have taken her."

Someone or several people landed the McCanns in it right at the last minute, imo. That is 'the disaster' that Gerry speaks of I do believe. Something horrible did happen to Madeleine earlier in the week, imo, but 'the disaster' was other players pulling out at the last minute, imo.

Maybe this was a deliberate attempt (by certain elements in the media perhaps) to 'frame' the McCanns and expose certain things??

It has been suggested that Jes Wilkins and Bridget O'Donnell were friendly with the Naylors who were fellow guests there that week at Ocean Club and whose daughter Elizabeth attended the same kids' club as Madeleine was supposed to have attended that week (alongside Jes and Bridget's daughter). There are also suggestions that the Elizabeth N had a friend who attended the creche with her - Madalene - and that she could possibly have been used as a 'stand-in' for Madeleine McCann. Based partly on creche signatures looking similar despite supposedly from different parents.

Maybe the plan was for someone to be carrying Madalene R away from Ocean Club at around 9.15pm - in order to lend credence to the 'random mystery abductor' story. But that Madalene's R's parents started to feel uneasy about what was going on that week, and pulled out at the last minute?

Forcing the Mcs and Tapas to come up with a last-minute cobbled-together time-line with more holes than a colander.

I just can't believe it is a complete coincidence that Matt 'wakes up' Jes and Bridget at 1pm in the early hours of Friday morning (in the company of the OC resort manager) and tells them that Gerry saw him outside his apartment at 9.15pm and wants to know if he saw anything as Madeleine has been abducted.

Jes' response is: "You're joking." I think he means this quite literally.He can't believe what he is hearing. He is astonished. Because Gerry has completely landed him in it by saying that he bumped into him right outside the apartment with his pram at such a crucial time. He has implicated Jes in some way (and notice how long it took for anyone from TM to wake up Jes, despite Jes allegedly having bumped into Gerry at such a crucial time. Note too that many of the other OC guests were out and about looking for Madeleine. How come Jes and Bridget were fast asleep when all the commotion occurred, possibly as early as 9.15pm? I would suggest that they weren't asleep at all but wanted to pretend that they were.)

One way or another Jes is implicated in this, imo. And - when 'the disaster' happened, Gerry made damn sure that Jes would not be getting off scott-free.

Maybe the Riders became unhappy about what was going on that week. Or smelt a rat. Maybe there was a rumor that Madeleine had come to some harm that week. Or there was another 'agenda' which had been hidden from them (trafficking/abuse?)

Ideas only in this very strange case.

by **PeterMac** 24.11.14 22:47

Interesting.
And as always leads to another question.

If you are on holiday in an "apartment" resort and you meet a bloke once, who has a child in a pushchair of a similar age to some of yours -- - - -
HOW DO YOU KNOW WHICH IS HIS APARTMENT, So you can visit it at 1 / 2 / 3am, wake them up, and tell them there is nothing they can do to help ?

Oh, Hi, Call me Ishmael, nice child you have there. You need to take care, several people are watching our apartment and taking notes . . .
What is your apartment number and when do you leave them unattended . . . ? "

by **PeterMac** 24.11.14 22:59

mysterion wrote:The mastermind does not need to be GM.

And they employ a McMinister for Propaganda
Step forward Goebbels - Mitchell = Goebbel-chell Minister of Minitrue

WAR IS PEACE," "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY," "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
What was it GM said about confusion is good ?

by MissesWillYa 24.11.14 23:14

PeterMac wrote:
mysterion wrote:The mastermind does not need to be GM.

And they employ a McMinister for Propaganda
Step forward Goebbels - Mitchell = Goebbel-chell Minister of Minitrue

WAR IS PEACE," "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY," "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
What was it GM said about confusion is good ?

Sadly, your post reminds me of "Work makes you free."

by nomendelta 24.11.14 23:16

PeterMac wrote:
mysterion wrote:The mastermind does not need to be GM.

And they employ a McMinister for Propaganda
Step forward Goebbels - Mitchell = Goebbel-chell Minister of Minitrue

WAR IS PEACE," "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY," "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
What was it GM said about confusion is good ?

You need to add the McCann classic..."Confusion is Good"

by Liz Eagles 24.11.14 23:18

MissesWillYa wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
mysterion wrote:The mastermind does not need to be GM.

And they employ a McMinister for Propaganda
Step forward Goebbels - Mitchell = Goebbel-chell Minister of Minitrue

WAR IS PEACE," "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY," "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
What was it GM said about confusion is good ?

Sadly, your post reminds me of "Work makes you free."

Here's a new take on it "Charity work makes you free....get with the programme"

by j.rob 25.11.14 23:25

juliet wrote:If you check out the name Heselton, as seen on the bottom of the reservation list, it has an odd consequence. For A Heselton I tried Andrew (on google). Just another coincidence I am sure!

A coincidence, maybe. If this is the consequence you mean........

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Irrespective of who this person might be, it is always quite dangerous, imo, to objectify people especially if you are choosing to use the word 'deviant.'

.http://www.thefreedictionary.com/deviant

deviant (ˈdiːvɪənt)
adj
1. (Sociology) deviating, as from what is considered acceptable behaviour
n
2. (Sociology) a person whose behaviour, esp sexual behaviour, deviates from what is considered to be acceptable

by juliet 26.11.14 9:58

I am sure it is an odd coincidence jrob. The link I found was slightly different but had much the same result which of course reminds one of that McCann in-law. The name Andrew was a guess and Mr H might well be Aubrey or Alfred.

by j.rob 29.11.14 18:11

BigRon wrote:I have to agree with j.rob that the evidence is pointing to a premeditated plan to stage an 'abduction' where Madeleine is whisked away and then some time later there is the 'reveal' that she has gone. However, on 30th April Madeleine appears to have come to harm in the apartment, throwing all the plans into chaos. A hasty Plan B was concocted but even this was thrown into chaos due to an element they could not control.

1. Premeditation

A number of factors can only be explained away by a degree of premeditation that 'something' was going to happen on the McCanns' holiday week.
- the presence of photos of Madeleine ready for distribution. The McCanns claimed these were printed at MW reception but there was no printer capable of printing the pictures as brought to Portugal by K & G.

Is this a fact? I am sure it has been discussed here.

- the request by K&G for an extra bed to be in their apartment [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] NB this request does not relate to the Paynes if you look at the order of how the sheet is printed

I suppose you could argue that this was for a 'sleep-over' for her friend Ella, or something. I think it is odd that Kate in her book never once mentions any other children coming to their apartment. Or their children going and playing at another apartment, though.

- a possible meeting between Jane Tanner and Robert Murat at the Salsalito property in Burgau. Either that or Tanner has been there independently and Murat has strong connections to the property too creating at least an indirect involvement
- the speed at which websites & the Fund were created

The Fund certainly did appear with lightening speed.

- Gerry's video remark on the airport bus. If he was not there to enjoy himself then he had some kind of 'unenjoyable' task to perform

Yes. Although I think it also indicates that his idea of a holiday is not a week with his wife and three children!

2. The plan

Lots of guesswork here. Let us suppose...

The Naylors (possibly invited by Jez Wilkins) and the Riders are in Luz at the same time.

I like this theory because if there is any merit to it it strongly implicates Jez Wilkins in a pre-planned 'hoax' on quite a grand scale, imo.

It is vital that the Riders do not stay at MW because then their 'Madalene' will be seen and associated with them.

Maybe they were also not 'in' on it?

With Elizabeth Naylor at MW it is suggested that her best friend Madalene joins her at kid's club.

Perhaps the McScam needed to keep Madeleine out of the kids' club all week? There was a need for a high level of confusion about what Madeleine really looked like, perhaps. Or maybe Madalene was only suppose to 'stand-in' for a short time (Thursday, say) but that 'a disaster' happened and she was signed in instead of Madeleine for much longer out of necessity?

Let us also assume that the Riders 'pose' as the McCanns at the Millennium - they get free brekkie (!) and it's more convenient than their own hotel for the kids getting to kids' club.

I suppose it is possible that staff at OC were confused about what the McCann family looked like if they thought that Madalene R was Madeleine McCann?

Gerry goes down with Robert Naylor and signs both of the kids in at MW - creating an association with a similar 'Madeleine'.

As the Rider family are not staying at OC then they would not necessarily even have been aware of this. It is perfectly possible that Elizabeth N's friend Madalene had 'sleep-overs' in the Nylor's apartment with Elizabeth. Were Madalene's parents staying nearby in Luz? Maybe they didn't see much of their daughter that week?

This then creates a problem later with the whole Maddie/Madeleine thing as they would naturally not refer to a stranger's child as 'Maddie' but the little girl corrects them. This would be a high risk strategy as 3/4 year olds have the habit of telling the truth regardless of the circumstance. However, these are highly intelligent children who could almost have been handpicked from one of the most prestigious primary schools in the country. It has been pointed out that the Blair children have attended EN/MRs school.

It is most odd that Kate claims in her book that Madeleine did not answer to Maddie when there is considerably evidence that she was known as that and the early poster campaign uses the name 'Maddie' in the logo 'Search for Maddie'. There is something deeply suspicious going on here.

The McCanns decide to keep sightings of themselves as a family to a minimum. They eat in the apartment, making their own breakfast and lunch (why? you're on holiday!!). When they go out of an evening the children are tucked up in bed with checks being made infrequently. We know checks were infrequent because of the length of the crying incident overheard by Mrs Fenn.

Yes. Having both breakfast and dinner in the apartment when you are on holiday is weird. Madeleine would have been desperate to be with her friend Ella and the other children. The Mrs Fenn crying incident is a huge red flag, imo. What was going on? Why would the McCanns be so careless as to allow such incriminating evidence against them? It just doesn't make any sense. I can only think that a child woke up unexpectedly and was deeply disturbed by something to the extent of being inconsolable. I think this is why both Kate and Gerry downplay the Madeleine and Sean's alleged crying on Wednesday. This is a very sensitive area, imo, and maybe pivotal to understanding what went on that week.

At some point there is a plan for Madeleine McCann to disappear (probably to the large sprawling Salsalito property in Burgau) where she will be looked after possibly by Murat and his other half. Tanner has been there to check things over. There are outbuildings and Murat will be very familiar with the property. There may also have been a plan for Malinka to help with the creation of a website for a public campaign where there is a lot of money to be made. IVF is an expensive process, after all.

This sounds plausible to me. An alive and well Madeleine will be whisked away - allegedly abducted - in a fake abduction hoax designed to make everyone rich.

The extra bed may have been requested for M Rider (for a sleepover EN's parents could have purported to Joe Rider and Sarah Fox to have been with Elizabeth)? Maybe this could have created/reinforced the impression that Madeleine was IN 5A, still around later in the holiday in order that MBM could be safely hidden away in Burgau before the alarm was raised.

Yes - it is likely that M Rider would want to have sleep-overs with her friend. I imagine Madeleine would need to 'disappear' quite some times before the alarm was raised at 9.15pm (or 10pm) depending on which version of events you read.

3. The first problem

I do have a problem here with the timing of the crying reported by Mrs Fenn as she reports it happening on the evening of May 1st. Unless the crying was that of Madelene Rider, sitting on the spare bed in the children's room.

There's a thought. I suppose it is not impossible. But very, very risky to have someone else's child screaming their head off in your apartment alerting goodness knows who to the fact that a child is being left unattended in that apartment. Why would you want to risk that? Again, I believe a child (probably Madeleine) must have been woken up unexpectedly and deeply disturbed by something to the extent that she was inconsolable. Maybe there was even an adult in the apartment while the child was crying (Kate) but the adult was unable to console the child? Then, when Mrs Fenn heard patio doors open, another adult entered that apartment (Gerry?) and the crying stopped very abruptly. Far too abruptly given the hour and a quarter of anguished crying. A child would not stop crying so abruptly when the parents returned. The sobbing would continue for some time but get less pronounced. This is incredibly suspicious, imo. And highly suggestive of a certain scenario which I am now more and more convinced is what happened to poor little Madeleine that week. Ugh, horrible.

Activity seems to ramp up early on the morning of the 1st May, suggesting something happens late on 30th.

This is what makes the crying incident confusing as if it had happened on a previous evening then the time-lines would all fit in in terms of Murat flying out and the fake, imo, tennis ball photo allegedly taken on Tuesday.

Let us speculate.... K&G come in roaring drunk from the Tapas/Chaplin's on 30th and go straight to bed. They fail to see that their distressed daughter has fallen behind the sofa, clutching her beloved Cuddle Cat, hit her head and sadly died.

I think it is worse than an accident that was covered up but obviously this is of course possible. There may have been several incidents - something bad happened on Monday and something even worse happened on Tuesday, perhaps?

They wake in the early hours of the morning and discover her body (giving plenty of time for cadaverine to form). They want to open the windows to 'air' the apartment but Gerry in his rage cannot get the shutters in their room to open and almost breaks the handle off the shutters in the process. They put Maddie in the blue sports bag in the cupboard but she cannot stay there for long. They need to wash their clothes but cannot operate the damn machine. Workers are arranged to mend the shutters and KM casually asks how to work the washing machine at the same time. The plan is in disarray. Murat is summoned to Portugal. He books a flight early on 1st May and arrives I think around 10:30ish. Murat contacts his lawyer straight away. MBM at some point is moved to a freezer - the blue sports bag being placed in the flower bed whilst the patio doors are closed on the way out.

It is certainly of interest that Kate writes about maintenance men coming in to look at both the washing machine and the shutters on the Tuesday. Both highly significant to the story, imo.

4. The second problem

Plans have to be changed. There are texts and phone calls which are deleted later. The plan is going to be that an abduction HAS taken place but now it has to be to conceal MBM's death. NB Phone call made by KM to friend Amanda on 2 May - could the washing machine have failed in getting bloodstains out and some advice was being sought from their ex-cleaner?

And Amanda's husband works in medicine or the health service, I do believe. And knows about toxicology? Is this right?

At some stage the Riders become suspicious/unhappy that their child is spending time away from them. Maybe their 'Madalene' recounts the story where she cried for an hour and a half with no response. On the evening of the 3rd May they decide to reclaim their child. Joe Rider sets forth to go and find Robert Naylor who may even be in the McCann's apartment with Elizabeth and Madeleine or in one of the nearby Tapas 7's apartments. They insist on taking Madelene back to their hotel.

Not impossible. If Jez had hatched a plot along with TM and the Nylers too, perhaps (if, as has been suggested the Nylers had lost money in a banking crash). The Rider's may not have known quite what was going on. Or become suspicious. Or got wind that 'a disaster' had occurred and the hoax was getting darker by the minute. They wanted 'out' perhaps.

Joe Rider strides purposefully through the town, carrying his sleepy child, bumping into the Smith family on his way back to his hotel. When Kate goes to check all is well, Robert Naylor tells Kate that the Riders have had enough and 'reclaimed' Madalene. Kate comes running back to the table screaming 'They've taken her!'. A timeline is hastily written along lines already agreed for the plan which was supposed to take place the following night. GMs bumping into JW is unforeseen or not relayed to the group and makes JT's 'sighting' unbelievable.

This is possible. "The f****** b****** have taken her." That would be consistent with TM having been completely landed in it by third parties right at the last minute. The plan had been for Madalene to be seen being removed from the resort (ostensibly from apartment 5A) at around 9.15pm. The real Madeleine McCann having long since gone elsewhere. This 'sighting' of Madalene with (Gerry/Jez/other Tapas male/Naylor father/other TM friend acquaintance) provides the 'proof' of abduction of Madeleine McCann. And Kate the following day tells the social worker that 'a couple' took Madeleine. Which would be in line with this scenario if the Rider parents whisked their daughter away.

Sounds far-fetched, right? I believe RM said he had been dragged into "the biggest f***-up in history". And nobody's squealed.... because people had been in on a conspiracy to defraud from the start and people want to cover their own backsides. How much everyone would know about such a grand plan is questionable. I wonder if the Naylors have ever been spoken to by the PJ or SY? All this of course IMO and based on nothing more than trying to find connections between the myriad of random facts that exist in this most complicated case.

It's been a cat and mouse game, imo. I am convinced that Jes Wilkins (and his friends) hold one of the keys to unlocking the mystery. Jez et al 'have something' over TM. TM 'have something' over Jez et al. This has been played out in the media over the past seven years. With clues, warnings, threats, messages and 'tit for tat' games.

I was in the 'white-wash' camp but the genie is just too far out of the bottle, imo.

by j.rob 29.11.14 18:42

The whole thing is bound up with exposure about paedo rings, imo. As, indeed, was suggested by TM from the outset!

by jay2001 29.11.14 20:15

j.rob I also think there's something strange with the Jez situation. His short deposition on 4 May didn't mention Gerry only Rasta Man. When he was woken at 1am he was told there was nothing he could do and he didn't! He left on Sat 4 May and received a list of questions on Mon 7 May. He mentioned his 3 / 5 minute chat with G in those replies.

His wife wrote a syrupy article about her Month with Madeleine when I don't think she'd even met her. She certainly couldn't pick her out of a crowd of little blonde girls all in pink!

So many questions ~ so few answers. Endgame coming? Hope so.

by jay2001 29.11.14 20:16

j.rob I also think there's something strange with the Jez situation. His short deposition on 4 May didn't mention Gerry only Rasta Man. When he was woken at 1am he was told there was nothing he could do and he didn't! He left on Sat 4 May and received a list of questions on Mon 7 May. He mentioned his 3 / 5 minute chat with G in those replies.

His wife wrote a syrupy article about her Month with Madeleine when I don't think she'd even met her. She certainly couldn't pick her out of a crowd of little blonde girls all in pink!

So many questions ~ so few answers. Endgame coming? Hope so.

by Guest 29.11.14 20:31

[quote="PeterMac"][quote="mysterion"]The mastermind does not need to be GM.[/quote]

And they employ a McMinister for Propaganda
Step forward Goebbels - Mitchell = [i][b]Goebbel-chell[/b][/i] Minister of [b]Minitrue[/b]

WAR IS PEACE," "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY," "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
What was it GM said about [i]confusion is good[/i] ?[/quote]

1983 1/2

?

by Woofer 29.11.14 21:40

@ BigRon
"Joe Rider strides purposefully through the town, carrying his sleepy child, bumping into the Smith family on his way back to his hotel. When Kate goes to check all is well, Robert Naylor tells Kate that the Riders have had enough and 'reclaimed' Madalene. Kate comes running back to the table screaming 'They've taken her!'. A timeline is hastily written along lines already agreed for the plan which was supposed to take place the following night. GMs bumping into JW is unforeseen or not relayed to the group and makes JT's 'sighting' unbelievable. "

Do we have any pics of J. Rider ?

Pics of Madalene R and Elizabeth N here :-

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Last page under St Benedicts History Workshop.

A Sarah F is also mentioned at the end.

by missbeetle 29.11.14 22:32

Hey Woofer - they aren't brilliant pictures, though :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(snipped from Kikoratton's Twitter pages, with thanks)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(snipped from magmagroup.co)

Hope this helps.

by j.rob 29.11.14 23:03

jay2001 wrote:j.rob I also think there's something strange with the Jez situation. His short deposition on 4 May didn't mention Gerry only Rasta Man. When he was woken at 1am he was told there was nothing he could do and he didn't! He left on Sat 4 May and received a list of questions on Mon 7 May. He mentioned his 3 / 5 minute chat with G in those replies.

His wife wrote a syrupy article about her Month with Madeleine when I don't think she'd even met her. She certainly couldn't pick her out of a crowd of little blonde girls all in pink!

So many questions ~ so few answers. Endgame coming? Hope so.

And how could Jez be asleep with all the commotion going on? Everyone else seems to have been wide awake. And why would Gerry or someone from TM not have almost immediately knocked on his door some time after 10pm, if he had genuinely been wandering around the resort with his pram at such a crucial time that evening? And had genuinely 'just bumped into' Gerry?

And how come he and partner Bridget just go back to sleep after the Matt visit in the company of the OC resort manager which allegedly wakes them both up from a deep slumber? A TV drama documentary maker and a journalist and former producer for Crimewatch just go back to sleep while one of the biggest stories of the decade breaks around them?

Yeah, right. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

---------

So - just suppose.

There is a plan for a faked abduction. A Madeleine McCann lookalike will be removed from the resort later in the week and spotted in the process, thereby lending credence to the random mystery abductor story. The real Madeleine McCann will have been whisked away from OC prior to the raising of the alarm. Something goes wrong - Madeleine McCann wakes up one night very early on during that week and is inconsolable. One can only speculate on what might have woken her up and made her so upset.

Extra help is needed to sort things out and Robert Murat is summoned at the last minute arriving late on 2nd May. At the time he is summoned, there is still great uncertainty about what has happened/will happen that week, given that a 'disaster' is unfolding. By Tuesday night, Madeleine is so terrified of the dark and night-time after the earlier terrible ordeal that she cannot sleep and cries in distress for an hour and a quarter. She is inconsolable. As overheard by neighbour Mrs Fenn. *Someone* arrives back at the apartment (after drinking heavily?) and is furious about the commotion. It is enough to give the whole 'game' away. Madeleine is silenced very quickly at this point. A point of no return has been reached at this stage, imo. Madeleine's fate is sealed at this time I think. GM and KM are not on the same page with regards to this, I suspect. Only a few of the Tapas might know or suspect what really happened.

Murat arrives in the area late that night. Wednesday and Thursday all sorts of negotiations are going on. TM are hoping to go ahead with the original plan, despite the 'disaster' having occurred. Not all of those involved in the original plan are aware of the 'disaster' but there are suspicions from some quarters. At the last minute or quite late on several key players change their minds, pull out and/or conspire to wreck the original plan. TM have been 'double-crossed'. (Just maybe that was the idea all along.....?) The Madeleine McCann lookalike is whisked away from O.C prior to the 9.15pm planned staging of the faked abduction and in the panic no-one from TM remembers to jemmy the apartment shutters.

All chaos has broken loose as without the abductor with the Madeleine look-alike 'sighting' supposed to have happened at 9.15pm, and without the jemmied shutters, there is no evidence whatsoever that an abductor stole Madeleine McCann from her bed that night. In desperation, TM cling to the life-raft of the aborted plan. Jane Tanner's 'sighting' at 9.15pm is what is supposed to have happened in the faked abduction. Madeleine's mystery, random abductor spiriting her away. It also serves as a reminder to those who have double-crossed them at the last minute and landed them in the mire that this will not be forgiven or forgotten. Jane Tanner 'saw' what was supposed to have happened and it's in the police files. (The play can go on - even if it is in tatters and necessitates the Ambassador visiting the very next day to sort out the mess.)

It is imperative that there is a delay in the calling of the police. The very last thing that TM want is for either Madeleine or her stand-in to be found. Madeleine is not in a good place or a good way. And if the stand-in happens to be found by the Portuguese sardine munching police, and identified as the girl who was in the creche who staff thought was Madeleine McCann, the whole crazy hoax will unravel. In all its nuttiness and complexity.

There is only one thing for it. The blame must be pinned on everyone else. The Portuguese police must be portrayed as bumbling, Tweedledum and Tweedledee sardine-munchers. The McCanns portrayed as terrible victims of a terrible ~~last minute double crossing~~ crime. The gullible public must be milked for all they are worth. And the story will roll and roll. With 'sightings' of random mystery abductors here, there and everywhere. All over the world. As far away as OC as possible. As far away as TM as possible.

How does Smith-man fit into all this? The Smith-man 'sighting' is at 10pm. That is a highly significant time that night. Because while there is quite a bit of evidence to support an alarm being raised and commotion being heard at 9.15pm (independent eye-witness reports) in her book Kate is very clear that she raised the alarm at 10pm. So I think the alarm was *supposed* to be raised at 9.15pm and someone or several people either in TM or the wider circle DID raise an alarm at 9.15pm (maybe the double-crossers even raised the alarm then to really land TM in it??) TM are then left like headless chickens running around with no jemmied shutters and no-one prepared to stage the faked abduction.

So, it is possible that in all the panic Gerry or another of the Tapas males or someone else who is partly responsible for what happened to Madeleine that week carried out a staged abduction at 10pm in a desperate attempt to stick to the script of the aborted plan. With re-written timelines. Or it is possible, imo, that the Smith sighting was entirely fabricated in order to flag up the TM 'rewritten script'. It highlights the (faked) 'abduction' as having being hastily rewritten to 10pm (as it was, imo). It makes a mockery of Jane Tanner's Tanner-man abductor who we are supposed to believe staggered around Ocean Club and Luz resort for a good 45 minutes carrying nearly 4 year old Madeleine. Eventually finding his bearings, one must suppose - seemingly having gone around in circles - and spiriting her away to a hellish liar goodness knows where....

Except he was spotted at the 45 minute mark by the Smith family, allegedly. It's a wonder he didn't ask them the way our of Luz, for so long had he been doing his abducting.....yes, I do believe the Smith family were bought in to - eventually - shine a light on Gerry McCann. The man who, I suspect, is ultimately responsible for the death of his daughter. (Possibly in conjunction with several others).

All IMO only. Just a crazy theory on this crazy case.

by Woofer 30.11.14 8:28

missbeetle wrote:Hey Woofer - they aren't brilliant pictures, though :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(snipped from Kikoratton's Twitter pages, with thanks)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(snipped from magmagroup.co)

Hope this helps.

Thanks MissBeetle, I knew I`d seen that family one somewhere. Crikey ... Rider could almost be a twin of GM. BigRon`s theory beginning to make sense to me now.

by Guest 30.11.14 9:30

Fantastic posts BigRon and j.rob.

All in my own opinion.

by jay2001 30.11.14 12:40

Thanks for response j.rob! Nothing in this tragedy would surprise me and I hope to God we find answers soon. My only problem with your theory is the dogs. I know the Ambassador was involved immediately and the Mcs had an inordinate amount of Govt help, but I don't think it would have got so far as to let the UK police order cadaver dogs. Don't know who is being protected, but if it was a total cover up we'd never had heard of Madeleine McCann.

Got to go out shortly, but will re-read Jez statements ~ looking at the early days again is well worth re-visiting!

by jeanmonroe 30.11.14 13:23

'FALSE WALLS' ANYONE?

At McCann/Healy 'family' homes?

At T7 'family' homes?

At JW/RN/JR 'family' homes?

At a millionaire's Scottish Spa Hotel?

At a window washer's 'family' home?

At an ex-government spin doctor's 'family' home?

Let's face it, the McCann's don't seem to have had much luck, linking, child 'abductions' to their 'cause', have they?

The last SIX er, 'abductions' have all had parental 'involvement'

Greek Maddie, Irish Maddie, Shannon Matthews, Aussie Maddie, the one the McCanns had on their FB page ADMITTING 'abducted BY own MOTHER' and now this boy 'abducted' by own FATHER etc. etc.

by j.rob 30.11.14 13:59

Woofer wrote:
missbeetle wrote:Hey Woofer - they aren't brilliant pictures, though :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(snipped from Kikoratton's Twitter pages, with thanks)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(snipped from magmagroup.co)

Hope this helps.

Thanks MissBeetle, I knew I`d seen that family one somewhere. Crikey ... Rider could almost be a twin of GM. BigRon`s theory beginning to make sense to me now.

Especially when you consider how very different Gerry looks (particularly with regards to his hair style and colour) in the alleged 'final photo' supposedly taken on Thursday and then at the press conference on Friday - just one day later. Given that his daughter was allegedly abducted just 24 hours previously, why on earth was getting his hair cut and coloured such a priority?

It's a wonder he didn't have a manicure and pedicure done too before that press conference!

by j.rob 30.11.14 15:05

jay2001 wrote:Thanks for response j.rob! Nothing in this tragedy would surprise me and I hope to God we find answers soon. My only problem with your theory is the dogs. I know the Ambassador was involved immediately and the Mcs had an inordinate amount of Govt help, but I don't think it would have got so far as to let the UK police order cadaver dogs. Don't know who is being protected, but if it was a total cover up we'd never had heard of Madeleine McCann.

Got to go out shortly, but will re-read Jez statements ~ looking at the early days again is well worth re-visiting!

Yes, the sniffer dog results are compelling. I think there are several possibilities. One is that Madeleine was killed that week at Ocean Club. She had woken up one evening very early in the week and was highly distressed by something. This lead to the distressed crying episode as overheard by neighbour Mrs Fenn. Madeleine was inconsolable. Gerry returned back to the apartment furious about all the noise and lashed out, imo. A decision was made not to save her. Her dead body was placed in the blue bag inside the apartment. Possibly also moved to apartment 5J where the early sniffer dogs also alerted (although it is possible she had been alive in this apartment that week as well). Murat comes out at the last minute to help (possibly not knowing the precise nature of what is going on) as he has many property (and other) contacts and there is a desperate need to conceal Madeleine's body. Which, as Amaral suggested, was placed in a fridge/freezer. (Ugh, this is all so horrible.)

When it looks as though everyone has fallen for the 'abduction' story, the body is removed from wherever it has been stored (almost certainly Murat's property contacts would have been used for this I think) in the Renault car hired by the McCanns three weeks after the alleged 'abduction'. The Renault clocked up huge mileage so who knows where Madeleine's body finally went and what happened to it? If Madeleine died that week at OC, it is quite strange, imo, that they left it three weeks before they hired a Renault and then moved her body from wherever it had been stored to, presumably, a final resting place. Three weeks is quite a long time. Quite risky. I also wonder why Portuguese police didn't use cadaver sniffer dogs earlier on? Surely this would have helped the investigation dramatically?

Given that the sniffer dogs came from the UK, who made the decision to send them in? Was it because TM had completely messed up the script? They were being thrown to the wolves? Or perhaps there was still uncertainty in some quarters about whether Madeleine was alive or not? And this was designed to provide evidence that she wasn't.

I think there is also a possibility that Madeleine did not die that week. Again I think something horrible happened early in the week to Madeleine which necessitated a drastic change of plan. (I believe Gerry McCann and David Payne are implicated in this and possibly others too.) Again Murat came out to help as a 'disaster' had happened. Madeleine was at some stage placed into apartment 5J (the early sniffer dogs became very agitated outside this apparently empty apartment). She is then removed from OC alive but ill/abused/over-sedated or a combination thereof.

Madeleine may have been taken away by 'the couple' that Kate mentioned to social worker Yvette Martin. In the weeks that follow (before the McCanns hire the Renault) there is uncertainty about Madeleine's future. In the early media interviews Kate, at least, appears to not know whether Madeleine is dead or alive. Towards the end of May, during an interview (analysed by Dr Roberts) there appears to be confirmation from Gerry that Madeleine is dead. At around this time Clarence Mitchell and other family members also leak clues that Madeleine is dead. This would tie in, time-wise, with the hiring of the Renault.

(There is also a report of the McCann clan meeting somewhere all wearing black clothing despite it being hot and sunny which could suggest some kind of funeral/wake/remembrance? Can't remember the details.)

This version of events - of Madeleine having been removed from Ocean Club alive - would tie in more closely with the 'paedophile ring' scenario that the McCann's themselves flagged up as a motive for Madeleine's disappearance. I shudder to think who was holding her during this time and what happened to her. I suspect that she had been/was abused. A decision is made not to save her (I do believe this to have been the case, at whatever stage she died or was killed) and her body is brought back and placed in apartment 5A. It is then removed in the Renault by the McCanns.

If this is what happened, then there would have been negotiations going on during those weeks. (She may have received medical or other treatment given that TM obviously have huge medical networks). It is beyond dispute that there was very high level intervention after 'the abduction'. It may be that after 'the abduction' the McCanns and Tapas - having really messed up 'the script' - did not know exactly what was going to happen. There was uncertainty. It had been, as Robert Murat put it, "the biggest f***-up on this planet" and who was going to sort out the mess?

But, eventually, Madeleine's body is brought back to OC and placed in apartment 5A (This is really very macabre.) This would actually be quite consistent with a homicide case.

While they were swanning around in private jets being blessed by the Pope they never imagined that cadaver sniffer dogs would be brought in to the resort and to apartment 5A. The whole foundation of their story was based on the premise that Madeleine was alive and being held somewhere. And the Fund depended on this theory. Who would donate money to find a dead child?

Theories as always. But whatever did happen, poor little Madeleine was the victim of greedy and cynical adults. Really shocking and disgraceful, imo.