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COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

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COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by ekatae on 22.11.13 21:04

I watched this Crimewatch programme again and wondered. (since the Detective chose his words carefully), whether "..we are treating this as a pre-planned abduction.." might mean the same as we are treating this as a staged or false abduction - Just wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this?

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by ultimaThule on 22.11.13 21:14

@ekatae wrote:I watched this Crimewatch programme again and wondered. (since the Detective chose his words carefully), whether "..we are treating this as a pre-planned abduction.." might mean the same as we are treating this as a staged or false abduction - Just wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this?
IMO these two phrases are interchangeable and what was not said is more informative than what was said.  

In addition, 'pre-planned abduction' could relate to the theft of a dead body as well as a live one.

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by Guest on 22.11.13 21:15

I would think SY choose their words very carefully. As I've mentioned here before '"abduction" primarily means "removal" from the Latin for taking or leading away ... Thus a "pre-planned abduction" could mean anything, apart from an opportunist abductor, who saw his chance at a holiday apartment with the doors open ... But it definitely doesn't exclude anyone of the "party" to be involved. IMO, of course, as usual.

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by Guest on 22.11.13 21:17

SNAP, UltimaThule :-)

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by ekatae on 22.11.13 21:35

That is such a brilliant reply in such a short space of time.... very interesting.... It is such an ambiguous phrase I agree...but your insight into that phrase has made me think even deeper. Apologies for the typo by the way. Thank you.

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by comperedna on 23.11.13 11:41

I agree with the posts above. It has struck me that the word abduction could cover almost any removal of MBM from the flat, though I'm not sure the taking away of a body wouldn't be stretching the meaning a bit far. I think I have been barking up the wrong tree by pooh-poohing the idea of 'abduction' if it could cover a large number of different types and reasons for removal.
Also, I've been thinking that if Madeleine did die from choking on vomit after sedation and all the 'friends' were sedating their children for convenience it may well be true that Kate did not know about the removal (the others could have been protecting her about the details.)

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by J4MM on 23.11.13 15:45

At around 28 minutes Redwood said, "Madeleine McCann's disappearance does, on one reading of the evidence, have the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction".  My interpretation of that statement was that more than one reading raises doubts of a pre-planned abduction.
.
He goes on to say, "It's really important for us to eliminate any sightings that are innocent and nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance".  I understood that to mean they need to build a case as strong as possible in order to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

My glass is half full on this one.  smilie

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by Guest on 23.11.13 16:10

@J4MM wrote: [...]

My glass is half full on this one.  smilie
***
A votre santé drinks

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by J4MM on 24.11.13 21:39

Cheers!  drinks

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by noddy100 on 18.02.14 21:56

@J4MM wrote:At around 28 minutes Redwood said, "Madeleine McCann's disappearance does, on one reading of the evidence, have the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction".  My interpretation of that statement was that more than one reading raises doubts of a pre-planned abduction.
.
He goes on to say, "It's really important for us to eliminate any sightings that are innocent and nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance".  I understood that to mean they need to build a case as strong as possible in order to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

My glass is half full on this one.  smilie
Or it could mean he has only read it once and that is his initial interpretation

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by sharonl on 20.02.14 8:20

Assuming that we are discussing the possibility of pre-planning by the McCanns here, I very much doubt that her death was pre-planned otherwise more care would have been taken over blood spillage, the cadaver and DNA.  There would have been less contractions given that they would have had time to get their stories straight.

On the other hand, and this is pure speculation but nevertheless something to look at (no stone unturned) we have the possibility of a pre-planned abduction. If we consider the following:

1.  Portuguese Police suggested that Madeleine was not Gerry's natural daughter
2.  Kate said that she struggled to cope with a very difficult Madeleine
3.  There were rumours that Madeleine was to be handed over to a relative

With this in mind, we may want to look at these blogs:

http://www.wearenotmissing.com/

http://pactofsilence.blogspot.co.uk/

According to these blogs, children who were reported missing via NCMEC and PACT, were not really missing at all but were taken out of their home countries, legally,  by one parent who had gained custody of the child. 

Ernie Allen and Lady Catherine Meyer founded NCMEC, Allen was later tried for fake child kidnap fraud.

If any pre-planning was involved, we may wish to ask the question. "How long have team McCann been in association with Ernie Allen and these charities?

Pure speculation again, but leaving no stone unturned, was Madeleine meant to be handed over to a relative (biological father), whilst the McCanns & the charities claimed an abduction as they had (according to these blogs) done before?

Add to this, Gerry's comment "It's a disaster" which usually means, its all gone wrong.

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by Guest on 20.02.14 8:32

Sharonl, I don't believe in a pre-planned abduction.  However, the three points you raise are interesting in relation to the fact that MBM is a ward of court.

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Re: COULD A PRE=PLANNED ADBUCTION MEAN THE SAME AS A 'STAGED' OR 'FALSE' ABDUCTION?

Post by tigger on 20.02.14 9:04

Question 41 from the PJ: is it true that you've considered handing M over to a relative?

(Not litt. quote) main thing is 'a relative'.

I do think she was Gerry's child, i still think she was ill, possibly terminally ill.
That would have been a good reason to deny the health records.

My observations only, nothing tangible but they behaved within a very short while as if they were vindicated and free at last.
In other words, they'd earned it after four years of trouble.

So it is possible that she was to be handed over to a far-flung relative for the last months of her life, early in the holiday.
For there was no point in doing it later. A sub, looking much like the first two photographs released, would be in the creche.
A beautiful little princess was prepared for the media with a distinguishing mark that would ensure the real Maddie who had no such mark, would not be recognised.
The photographs released show such a variety in appearance that they could be different girls.

But there was an accident and the plan had never included the removal and hiding of a body.
Murat had to come earlier than planned, he'd been lined up possibly to come after the abduction to help with translation and spying on the PJ (which is exactly what he was caught doing by a PJ inspector).
By 3/5 5a was finally ready for the police. Cleaned and for some reason devoid of M's DNA.

The rest is a constant tweaking of the narrative, some or most of the changes generated by the unforeseen success of the media storm and the British public's generosity.
Perhaps the 'Fighting Fund' (such a good name) was intended to help the parents set up a European Amber Alert, the 'aliveness' of Maddie not needed for more financial help.
Imo the McCanns with their shaky story and the eagle-eyed PJ on the case were firmly pushed into a separate enterprise all their own.
Otherwise they'd have been ( officially or semi-officially) linked to Amber Alert Europe almost immediately.
Instead, the powers that were decided to see how things developed - and we know the rest.

All the above springs from my fertile imagination.  winkwink 


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