Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

by Khalgregar 27.03.13 12:55

From Gerry's arguido statement of 7th September 2007:

"Moreover, he says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, completely uncovered, i.e. lying on top of the covers, with the soft toy and blanket, both pink, next to her head; he does not know if they were in the position that can be seen in the photograph attached to the files"

Now I am a parent, and I regularly check my children when they are sleeping. Children have a knack of getting out of bed-covers, so I usually have to tuck a leg in or pull the duvet up so they won't get cold.

If I saw my child not in the covers at all, I would lift them up and put them in the bed properly. Absolutely, 100%, this is something that I would do out of parental instinct.

According to various reports, it was quite cold in Praia da Luz that night. Why wasn't Madeleine tucked up to start with? Why didn't Gerry cover her up during his check, when he marvelled at how lucky he was?

by Khalgregar 27.03.13 13:02

Some possibilities:

1. Gerry and Kate knew that Madeleine had trouble sleeping, so as they had managed to get her to sleep left her where she was, so as not to ruin their evening. Therefore, in this case they ignored their parental instincts to cover her up so that she wouldn't get cold.
2. It was very warm in the apartment, so she didn't need putting back under the covers. For this to be true, it would have to be very warm indeed.
3. Neither Kate nor Gerry had the parental instinct to cover their daughter up properly.
4. The claim that Madeleine slept on top of the bed is not true.

by Guest 27.03.13 13:56

I certainly can't envisage putting a child to bed in this way, lying on top of the covers. I'm having to think back many years, mind you!

The police photo of what was claimed to be Madeleine's bed shows that it appeared not to have been slept in and so in my opinion the only way to explain that was by saying that she was on top of the covers.

Personally I do not believe that she was ever there at all on that evening.

by annemab 27.03.13 14:10

Given what I have read so far about the level of truth contained in any of their statements, I would guess number 4 is the correct answer. IMO! And what Jean says is probably the simplest and therefore most likely explanation IMO...

There is maybe another possibility though - I have a very wriggly 3 year old and, like the PP, I always cover her back up on a cold night EXCEPT when she has a fever and needs to cool down. I'm not totally up to speed as am relatively new to the forum, but I think I've read that some of the other children had a tummy bug - actually I know I've read that as I was shocked that one of the parents would leave their baby in a soiled nappy/ pyjamas/ sleeping bag overnight (WTF?!) - so could Madeleine have been ill and had a fever?

I give calpol when my LO has a fever (it's infant paracetamol, not a sedative as some have suggested) but it doesn't always work. Then again, I wouldn't leave them on their own, whether they were ill or not. But I would have thought even if you were happy to leave your children on their own you would surely think twice if they were ill? Sorry if I've gone off topic there.

by Khalgregar 27.03.13 14:16

Jean wrote:I certainly can't envisage putting a child to bed in this way, lying on top of the covers. I'm having to think back many years, mind you!

The police photo of what was claimed to be Madeleine's bed shows that it appeared not to have been slept in and so in my opinion the only way to explain that was by saying that she was on top of the covers.

Personally I do not believe that she was ever there at all on that evening.

The problem that I have with the idea that Maddy died before the 3rd - if that is your view Jean, don't let me put words in your mouth! - is that the whole 'cover story' seems rushed and full of errors. For example, why not ruffle the bed up to make it look like Maddy had slept in it? Why not engineer better evidence of the shutters being 'jemmied open'? My belief - that Maddy probably died on the evening of the 3rd - is formed mainly from two things. Firstly, that Kate's behaviour seemed to match that of a mother who had just lost her child, hysterical, grieving, unable to act. Secondly, if they had had time to plan the evening's events, they did it very badly, giving us 'loons' so much to doubt it. No, to me the whole affair looked like it was put together in a rush, in a half an hour. By the time the police arrived, they didn't have the opportunity to arrange the 'crime scene' better.

by pennylane 27.03.13 14:19

K said on This Morning ? words to the effect of 'you don't expect to put yer child in yer bed and have her taken.' I think K's brain was busy focusing on the 'taken' part of the story, and accidentally let slip where Madeleine was sleeping on the day/night the trauma occurred.

I believe M was put in her parents room following the crying episode on 1st, to prevent further disruptions to sleep and given a mild sedative. Perhaps something O'B had with him post Ella's recent foot op...?

jmho

by Guest 27.03.13 14:29

It wasn't "her bed" rather than "yer bed" was it? Deciphering whining Scouse is not always easy!

Certainly the silly cover story of regular checks does seem to have been thrown together in a panic and, if something happened earlier in the day or even before, the McCanns and friends could surely have come up with a more credible version of events.

Perhaps it simply never occurred to their over-inflated egos that, as respectable people (my elbow!), they would not be believed.

by pennylane 27.03.13 14:42

Jean wrote:It wasn't "her bed" rather than "yer bed" was it? Deciphering whining Scouse is not always easy!

Certainly the silly cover story of regular checks does seem to have been thrown together in a panic and, if something happened earlier in the day or even before, the McCanns and friends could surely have come up with a more credible version of events.

Perhaps it simply never occurred to their over-inflated egos that, as respectable people (my elbow!), they would not be believed.

Hi Jean [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

She definitely said 'in yer bed,' as I triple checked at the time....

I have always felt that M's demise happened on the 3rd. Nothing has altered my belief thus far that the planning was desperate and cobbled together at the last minute.

by Guest 27.03.13 14:48

Khalgregar wrote:From Gerry's arguido statement of 7th September 2007:

"Moreover, he says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, completely uncovered, i.e. lying on top of the covers, with the soft toy and blanket, both pink, next to her head; he does not know if they were in the position that can be seen in the photograph attached to the files"

Now I am a parent, and I regularly check my children when they are sleeping. Children have a knack of getting out of bed-covers, so I usually have to tuck a leg in or pull the duvet up so they won't get cold.

If I saw my child not in the covers at all, I would lift them up and put them in the bed properly. Absolutely, 100%, this is something that I would do out of parental instinct.

According to various reports, it was quite cold in Praia da Luz that night. Why wasn't Madeleine tucked up to start with? Why didn't Gerry cover her up during his check, when he marvelled at how lucky he was?

Slightly different version from KM, her witness statement 6th Sept 2007....

They also kissed Madeleine, who was already lying down. She was under the covers, she thinks, because it was a bit cold. She normally clutched the soft toy and if she wasn’t holding it then it was next to her, on the left. She remained lying down on her left side, with the soft toy and a pink blanket, which she thinks was covering her. The twins were laid down on their backs, covered with open weave blankets. She says that she doesn’t know if the children were in the same positions when they left the apartment.

It was around 7:15 p.m. when they put the children to bed and checked they were sleeping, she is sure of this

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by Guest 27.03.13 15:18

Kate's version actually sounds more believable but then we are left with the problem of unruffled covers on a bed which appears not to have been slept in.

by Khalgregar 27.03.13 16:44

Interestingly, a little further into Kate's statement:

'They talked while they drank, until they left for the Tapas restaurant at around 8.30-8.35 p.m. Before leaving they checked on the children, she doesn’t know who; however Gerry says it was him. She only knows the children were quiet. She doesn’t know if they were in their same positions. She says she is sure that they were asleep, because Gerry told her so and all was quiet.'

If it was Kate who checked, then it would be the last time that she saw Madeleine.

You would think she would be sure about the last time she saw her daughter.

EDIT: This bit of the statement actually changes the facts during the course of a few sentences. She says that 'she doesn't know who', and that Gerry says that it was him. However, only a couple of sentences later she seems certain who checked, because she says that 'Gerry told her so'. He would not have had to 'tell her so' if she had been the one who checked. Yet 'she doesn't know who'.

This leads me to suspect deception.

by Guest 27.03.13 20:30

I don't want to bore you all to death with my dogs, but ... if I go out for the night or whatever, leaving my dogs alone at home, I will be able to tell you weeks later, what was the last time I saw them, where they were, how they were and what they were doing [and everything I'd done to make them at ease, confident and comfortable until I would be back]. Period.

by Nina 27.03.13 21:34

Châtelaine wrote:I don't want to bore you all to death with my dogs, but ... if I go out for the night or whatever, leaving my dogs alone at home, I will be able to tell you weeks later, what was the last time I saw them, where they were, how they were and what they were doing [and everything I'd done to make them at ease, confident and comfortable until I would be back]. Period.

But Chatelaine we are dog lovers. Today I had to have one of my sweet dogs put to sleep and I will remember every moment of the time as I have done any animal that I have lost.

by Guest 27.03.13 21:50

Nina wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:I don't want to bore you all to death with my dogs, but ... if I go out for the night or whatever, leaving my dogs alone at home, I will be able to tell you weeks later, what was the last time I saw them, where they were, how they were and what they were doing [and everything I'd done to make them at ease, confident and comfortable until I would be back]. Period.

But Chatelaine we are dog lovers. Today I had to have one of my sweet dogs put to sleep and I will remember every moment of the time as I have done any animal that I have lost.

I'm very sorry to hear about your dog Nina Sad

by Guest 27.03.13 22:02

I'm so very sorry too, Nina.

The problem is, you love them so much and specially they love YOU so much, that it's so hard to lose them. After a while, I speak from experience and I'm sure you have it too, you're able to remember all of the good times as pain fades away [though never completely]. They're not your kids, not your family, maybe not even your friends, but they're these unconditional companions through life, who often know you better than you do yourself. I'll be thinking of you, whilst I am dreading the day that I will have to say goodbye again to one of mine [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Nina 27.03.13 22:06

Châtelaine wrote:I'm so very sorry too, Nina.

The problem is, you love them so much and specially they love YOU so much, that it's so hard to lose them. After a while, I speak from experience and I'm sure you have it too, you're able to remember all of the good times as pain fades away [though never completely]. They're not your kids, not your family, maybe not even your friends, but they're these unconditional companions through life, who often know you better than you do yourself. I'll be thinking of you, whilst I am dreading the day that I will have to say goodbye again to one of mine [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thank you. Sorry for going off topic.

by Guest 27.03.13 22:09

So sorry to hear you have lost your beloved dog Nina, I always cry when I read this but it gives me comfort..........

Rainbow Bridge

'There is a bridge connecting Heaven and Earth. It is called the Rainbow Bridge because of its many colors. Just this side of the Rainbow Bridge there is a land of meadows, hills and valleys with lush green grass.

When a beloved pet dies, the pet goes to this place. There is always food and water and warm spring weather. All the animals who have been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by.

The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind. They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. Her bright eyes are intent; her eager body begins to quiver. Suddenly she begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, her legs carrying her faster and faster. You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.

Then you cross the Rainbow Bridge together, never again to be separated.'

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by Guest 27.03.13 22:12

Now you've made me cry too, Candyfloss.

by Nina 27.03.13 22:12

And so to Madeleine on top of the covers, in a short sleeved pj top with just below the knee bottoms. No mention ever of a vest or panties underneath so must presume that is all she was wearing. It was a cool night, we have heard it was yet she wasn't gently lifted back into her bed under the covers which to be honest only looked like a sheet and a coverlet so not very much anyway, no blankets being used, usually to be found in the top cupboards of the wardrobes. Early May and it was cool at night, and no one to cuddle up to under the cold cotton sheets, didn't even cuddle her cuddle cat nor her pink blanket. And she was laid in the recovery position according to her father the heart consultant. My anger is brewing.

by Nina 27.03.13 22:15

Thank you Candyfloss. As we have stroked our pets as they die I always say to them 'see you at the Rainbow bridge' in fact when my beloved Bracken died, not very long ago, I was very ill and to him I just said, 'wait for me'.

by Guest 27.03.13 22:23

I'm still fighting back my tears. For you Nina, for Bracken, for my Amos, Estelle, Klein-Messie, Onyx et al.

But,
yes, back to the discussion: it was a cool night. Madeleine was
uncovered on top of the bedding and the twins were lying on their back
only covered with a open weaven cotton blanket ... My foot. Or to quote Jean: my elbow.

by **PeterMac** 27.03.13 22:24

Nina wrote:And so to Madeleine on top of the covers, in a short sleeved pj top with just below the knee bottoms. No mention ever of a vest or panties underneath so must presume that is all she was wearing. It was a cool night, we have heard it was yet she wasn't gently lifted back into her bed under the covers which to be honest only looked like a sheet and a coverlet so not very much anyway, no blankets being used, usually to be found in the top cupboards of the wardrobes. Early May and it was cool at night, and no one to cuddle up to under the cold cotton sheets, didn't even cuddle her cuddle cat nor her pink blanket. And she was laid in the recovery position according to her father the heart consultant. My anger is brewing.

Jane Tanner “it was quite a cold night” “It was actually quite cold”: and Kate McCann “It was so cold and windy”.
And JT went back to take one of her husband's / partner's fleeces.
Panorama documentary, 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann',
madeleine, by Kate McCann. p. 73

What heating was available in the apartment ? Does anyone know ? Don't even think about central heating, or underfloor !

They simply have not rehearsed the story properly. It changes by the minute.

by Khalgregar 27.03.13 22:29

Nina wrote:And so to Madeleine on top of the covers, in a short sleeved pj top with just below the knee bottoms. No mention ever of a vest or panties underneath so must presume that is all she was wearing. It was a cool night, we have heard it was yet she wasn't gently lifted back into her bed under the covers which to be honest only looked like a sheet and a coverlet so not very much anyway, no blankets being used, usually to be found in the top cupboards of the wardrobes. Early May and it was cool at night, and no one to cuddle up to under the cold cotton sheets, didn't even cuddle her cuddle cat nor her pink blanket. And she was laid in the recovery position according to her father the heart consultant. My anger is brewing.

I wouldn't feel too angry about it Nina, I don't think it is very likely at all that this is what really happened. Kate seems to be making it up as she goes along when making her statements - first she says that (she thinks) Maddy was under the covers, then (she thinks) she was just under a small blanket. She is lucky that she only had to give two statements, and the right questions weren't asked during the first.

by Guest 27.03.13 22:31

I know from experience that a house or apartment, built for "cool" in the hot season [stone floors, no central heating] even at 16 degrees C is freezing cold ...

by Khalgregar 27.03.13 22:32

PeterMac wrote:
Nina wrote:And so to Madeleine on top of the covers, in a short sleeved pj top with just below the knee bottoms. No mention ever of a vest or panties underneath so must presume that is all she was wearing. It was a cool night, we have heard it was yet she wasn't gently lifted back into her bed under the covers which to be honest only looked like a sheet and a coverlet so not very much anyway, no blankets being used, usually to be found in the top cupboards of the wardrobes. Early May and it was cool at night, and no one to cuddle up to under the cold cotton sheets, didn't even cuddle her cuddle cat nor her pink blanket. And she was laid in the recovery position according to her father the heart consultant. My anger is brewing.

Jane Tanner “it was quite a cold night” “It was actually quite cold”: and Kate McCann “It was so cold and windy”.
And JT went back to take one of her husband's / partner's fleeces.
Panorama documentary, 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann',
madeleine, by Kate McCann. p. 73

What heating was available in the apartment ? Does anyone know ? Don't even think about central heating, or underfloor !

They simply have not rehearsed the story properly. It changes by the minute.

This from Kate answers that one: 'She was under the covers, she thinks, because it was a bit cold.'

But not under the covers at all, but under a thin blanket.

Changes by the second ;-)