Carole Tranmer

Russiandoll suggested a new topic.
I believe CT is worth another look because she was called for a Rog. Int.

Imo her statement is full of anomolies.
I used the penthouse description to describe the type of apt. in that block with an amazing views. I did not say it was a direct quote from CT, if I had I would use quotation marks.
In the RI she says - " ..and it was the 2nd or 3rd floor, I am never certain, but I believe there is more than one apt." Mrs Fenn's apt. on the first floor was in a whole row of apt's just like the bottom floor. What she says does not make sense. It is obvious to all there is a long row of apt's including the Paynes and 5J.
As you go higher there are much less. What does she mean? "
DC1485 " And I know that you have pointed to the map, as you know, that you were on the third floor and he was here."
CT is asked to describe the layout of the terrace. It is like she is describing two different apt's combined.
The DC asks about younger members of the family. Mrs Fenn had no daughters so he asks about the grand daughters and all their names.
Who is he asking about? It must mean something to the police.


Stella I found it interesting too when she says her husband who is contracted by the EU , will have a book to write when he leaves.

a useful diagram by Stella.

5A	McCann	5G	Mrs Fenn	5K	Moyes	5P	empty ?	5R
5B	Oldfield	5H	Payne	5L	empty ?	5Q		5S
5C	empty ?	5i	empty ?	5M	empty ?
5D	Tanner	5J	?	5N
5E
5F
	the OC cleaner only cleans these apartments
	the cleaner said was occupied
	we know is privately owned
	presumed to be privately owned
	sniffer dogs Rex and Zarus independently show interest
	and cleaner confirmed it was not occupied

Things could be slotting into place
now !! When I created the chart above, I could not understand what I had
written on it, even though it was based on witness statements. The OC
cleaner stated a number of appartments that were occupied. She
specifically mentions 5G, now why would she mention that one, if this is
where Mrs Fenn actually lived. Was she just referring to apartments
that were being used as holiday lets? Could Mrs Fenn have been renting
out 5G? If so, who was in there on the 3rd?

Gr.	floor	1st	floor	2nd	floor	3rd	floor	4th	floor
5A	McCann	5G	Mrs Fenn	5K	Moyes	5P	empty ?	5R	Mrs Fenn?
5B	Oldfield	5H	Payne	5L	empty ?	5Q		5S
5C	empty ?	5i	empty ?	5M	empty ?
5D	Tanner	5J	?	5N
5E
5F
	the OC cleaner only cleans these apartments
	the cleaner said was occupied
	we know is privately owned
	presumed to be privately owned
	sniffer dogs Rex and Zarus independently show interest
	and cleaner confirmed it was not occupied

CT does not state that there is more than one apartment. See below. She seems to be placing her aunt's apartment on a particular floor, by estimating how many apartments are above her aunt's.
Looking at Stella's diagram, the floors have fewer apartments the higher you go. That is why IMO CT says as you mention......when you go higher they get less.
She might have made a simple error here by underestimating how many floors were above the floor her aunt lived on. Saying as she does that there is only one on top [ I assume she means floor] seems to place her a floor below the one on Stellas diagram.
At the end of this quote, is CT talking about access to her aunt's apartment from the entrance to the block?
This is so confusing I am wondering if we will get anywhere with this !!

[color:33a7=000000]She bought it in 2003 'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain,
but I believe that there is one more apartment

DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'

CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.

DC1485'Third floor.[color:33a7=000000]
[color:33a7=000000]
CT [color:33a7=000000]There

is only one on top,
therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment[color:33a7=000000]. Once there,
you take the elevator or the stairs.
There is no other
entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end.
There is no other access.

5G is in a long row. She seem to be describing a mixture of 2 different apt's. It is so hard to explain on line.


DC1485 says " ..you have pointed to the map, as you know, you were on the THIRD floor and he was here."
How can she point to the map and say 5G is on the THIRD floor.
We could understand semantics about ground, first, second, to describe 5G but in this RI the DC clearly says she points to the THIRD floor.

Could it just be a simple omission, has a word been left out, the word above for instance, as she is talking about not being certain which floor she is on - I think this could be the explanation.

She bought it in 2003 'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain,
but I believe that there is one more apartment ABOVE

Look at what the DC says, CT pointed to the map on the THIRD floor, pointed to not described.
The Dc is showing her a map not words. It's like she puts an X on the THIRD floor on the map.

Even with semantics about whether we call the first level of apartments ground or first floor.......the third floor is not where PF said she lived... her apartment is stated to be directly above the McCanns...that is either the 1st or 2nd floor if we go back to semantics. It is no higher than that.
I am trying my hardest to find out where CT is talking about......she definitely says in her RI there is "only one" above her aunt.
Either she is correct and her aunt is indeed on the third [ or fourth going back to semantics !] floor, not 5G therefore.
Or she is wrong and there is more than one floor above her aunt's apartment.
If her aunt was in 5G, then there are 3 floors above. CT has made one heck of a mistake.


Or and it is a big or......there is deliberate confusion going on.

Why did LP not press her to be clearer? The police in Portugal seem to want clarity as to who was where in relation to each other.
Did PF have her RI before CT, because if they had that info about 5G then LP should have been much firmer with CT about this 3rd floor no 20 carry on.

candyfloss wrote:Could it just be a simple omission, has a word been left out, the word above for instance, as she is talking about not being certain which floor she is on - I think this could be the explanation.

She bought it in 2003 'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain,
but I believe that there is one more apartment ABOVE

she might simply be underestimating how many floors are above her aunt. If PF was in 5G CT has underestimated quite a lot !

Russiandoll that is what I am saying. 5G semantics or not can not be on the THIRD floor as per the DC!

I have never disagreed with you ! How the heck are we going to work out what the heck CT was referring to in her RI?
I hate conspiracy theories......but I am bothered by the stuff in the RI that corroborates the McCann story...the crying child[ despite the date discrepancy] and even worse........the window being brought into it all with the talk of a burglar in her aunt's apartment. I wonder if there is stuff withheld from the files re all this.
Will re read again.

On another thread, sorry don't know how to link to it, Candyfloss gave a link with pictures that shows very well the whole block. The McCanns apt, Mrs Fenn above it and just one more above her, but then off to the right more floors with at the end what is classed as a cottage, end of terrace and this has more than one floor. I will try to bring the link over as it is an excellent group of photographs.



The link, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Nina wrote:On another thread, sorry don't know how to link to it, Candyfloss gave a link with pictures that shows very well the whole block. The McCanns apt, Mrs Fenn above it and just one more above her, but then off to the right more floors with at the end what is classed as a cottage, end of terrace and this has more than one floor. I will try to bring the link over as it is an excellent group of photographs.



The link, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

candyfloss sent me a good photo. what interests me now is your saying that some of the upper apartments are classed as cottages.this relates to a post of mine earlier today on the what was 5a used for thread, where I posted an ad for a cottage at waterside gardens..number 34..... has 2 floors.
CT referred to her aunt living at number 20, block 5G. and CT says this is an end apartment on the third floor.
INTERESTING.

russiandoll wrote:

Nina wrote:On another thread, sorry don't know how to link to it, Candyfloss gave a link with pictures that shows very well the whole block. The McCanns apt, Mrs Fenn above it and just one more above her, but then off to the right more floors with at the end what is classed as a cottage, end of terrace and this has more than one floor. I will try to bring the link over as it is an excellent group of photographs.



The link, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

candyfloss sent me a good photo. what interests me now is your saying that some of the upper apartments are classed as cottages.this relates to a post of mine earlier today on the what was 5a used for thread, where I posted an ad for a cottage at waterside gardens..number 34..... has 2 floors.
CT referred to her aunt living at number 20, block 5G. and CT says this is an end apartment on the third floor.
INTERESTING.

I'll put it here russiandoll if you can't upload it - it enlarges to a big size



[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I have just seen in her RI that CT says the man came out of the apt on the FIRST floor. I can't do a link but it is a few lines after she says where they stayed in Quarteira , Pinhal de Sol, (?) it is near the beginning. So using CT semantics we have -


First floor (the line starting with 5A)
Second floor ( 5G)
Third floor (CT points to here on the map for the DC)


This is strange, no wonder they called her in for a Rog Int!

The above link is in the RI, after the talk of meeting the Queen etc.

After reading all the 5a thread, and now this one, went off and read all the RI with Carole Tranmer. I was struggling to see the relevance of the floor she thought she was on, because after all, PF lived where she lived regardless or not if someone else could remember correctly. Where they said she lived, or what number flat, if different from the fact, alters nothing, just means CT has a poor recollection. In fact she had forgotten where she was staying in 2007 and the DC reminded her, presumably from the original notes. She also said she could never remember between 2 and 3rd floor.

If she had only been to OC 3 times, as per her RI, and her aunt lived there since 2003, that amounts to an annual visit to PdL. Bearing in mind she stays elsewhere, and said she did not stay in PF's apartment because of her age, not wanting to be a burden, this again reduces the likelihood of an accurate description. You can then further reduce this, if we take the 2007 visit as fairly typical, she made a couple of visits of a few hours. Pop out for some food, be engaged in conversation, also reduces her "knowledge" or familiarity, put a years gap in between these relatively minuscule visiting times and it becomes clear that as a witness recalling particulars of the apartments, it is next to pointless. In fact, the detective made reference to her good memory, because what she thought she remembered was remarkable when you actually break down actual time she realistically spent there. This is supposition based on my interpretation only, from the RI.

Then onto the suspicious man. Suspicious behaviour is all rather subjective. She states when she saw the man exit the gate he pulled it closed stealthily. What we don't know, and presumably she didn't either, was whether the gate was fully functional. By this I mean was correctly aligned on it's hinges. I have a waist height metal gate at the front of my house. It is old and worn and I generally close it as she describes as it has sagged and gets caught on the path. It also makes a terrible noise if you drag it and it is really annoying for other people to hear scraping sounds - being mindful of others, I always use the gate "politely" IYKWIM!! Now, if my assumptions are correct, and she was only ever at the apartment for a handful of hours a year, why would she know anything about the people staying or visiting there, the "normal" sights and sounds?

As to the comments about the view, again these things are always subjective. People often try to add grandiosity to their own surrounding, a bit of snobbery if you like, some people for example refer to gardens or small patches of ground as their "land", which is strictly true but a bit OTT and showy offy. Perhaps her description was a little that way?? Possibly her "relationship" to the Royals amounted to nothing more than a "hello, how are you today?" sort of exchange as opposed to really knowing them??

In all, having read the mammoth thread and the RI of CT, I really am genuinely at a loss to see the importance of it. All I can see is a very unremarkable statement from someone who doesn't appear to have ever spent enough time at the aunts apartment to create anything like a useful description a year down the line.

What am I not seeing for looking? Having invested a good couple of hours reading the thread and RI and thinking about it, I really can't see anything in her statement that is unexpected under the circumstances.

candyfloss wrote:

russiandoll wrote:

Nina wrote:On another thread, sorry don't know how to link to it, Candyfloss gave a link with pictures that shows very well the whole block. The McCanns apt, Mrs Fenn above it and just one more above her, but then off to the right more floors with at the end what is classed as a cottage, end of terrace and this has more than one floor. I will try to bring the link over as it is an excellent group of photographs.



The link, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

candyfloss sent me a good photo. what interests me now is your saying that some of the upper apartments are classed as cottages.this relates to a post of mine earlier today on the what was 5a used for thread, where I posted an ad for a cottage at waterside gardens..number 34..... has 2 floors.
CT referred to her aunt living at number 20, block 5G. and CT says this is an end apartment on the third floor.
INTERESTING.

I'll put it here russiandoll if you can't upload it - it enlarges to a big size



[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Yes, we now know it's a two storey apartment, with stairs down to the bedrooms & bathrooms. Not a style of living suited to a 80+ yr old suffering with arthritis.

Thanks for the pic Candyfloss, most helpful.

I have a theory about the numbering of the apt's and number 20. That's all it is though - a theory, so by all means shoot me down. I don't think it's unusual to have both a number & letter, the property. I stay in abroad uses both.

I assume the first block pictured above is also part of Waterside Gardens? If so, could the apts in this block be numbered oddly - no's 1-35 just say; then Block G5 numbered evenly, say 2-34, counting the McCann apartment no 2 then working along the passage, up to the next level stopping at the end one - Mrs Fenn's being numbered 20? Are there 5 apartments in each row on the 2 lower floors? I can't make it out for certain. If there is, then it would make sense of Mrs Fenn being number 20.

Hope I haven't made that too confusing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

For me it is important because CT and Mrs Fenn's statements were made public and the British media pulled the PJ to pieces over it. I wanted to show the anomalies that the PJ were privy too.
The focus was turning onto the McCann's more and more in mid August.
CT was important enough to be re questioned in 2008. Why was she asked about another female using the Fenn name? The PJ had someone in mind, imo.
We all see things differently and that is good for debate.

Daisy from memory there are more than five but I need to check.

Enlarging the photo and under closer inspection the pic clearly shows - the bottom 3 rows all have five apartments in each row. with only 2 apartments on the fourth level. The following info indicates this is ineed how the numbering system goes in block G. Starting at number two - the McCann apt, up to the 4th level penthouse, no 34

Thanks to russiandoll for this little snippett:

"where I posted an ad for a cottage at waterside gardens..number 34..... has 2 floors.
CT referred to her aunt living at number 20, block 5G" - She was correct it is number 20

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The McCann apt. is no. 2?

Praia wrote:The McCann apt. is no. 2?

Yes, if Mrs fenn is number 20 and the penthouse on the fourth floor is numbered 34, then it's logical to assume 5A is apartment 2?

Daisy from walking past the block alot, I thought there was at least 6 in each row.
No matter we think differently. I still think CT's statement had alot of holes. Why was she called back in 2008?
Have to go.

candyfloss wrote:

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CT talks about sitting under a cover, is this the blue cover just to the left of number 2.

“Well, there is a table, a sun umbrella, some chairs and potted plants and very little else; a part of the terrace is bigger than the other with the end part longer, more or less. The part where we sat was covered and has a big enough space for six people to sit, but I, I know that I was standing on the veranda when I looked down. I was not looking in this way, I was only snooping to see what was going on below. It was simply a look as follows, for this reason, I was looking below and was not properly, I cannot, I could not see very well”.

If you look directly down from that blue cover, you will be looking straight into the garden of 5b. CT talks of looking down to see blondie. The gate was to the rear not the side. She also mentions in her statement about not knowing which apartment the McCann's were in.