The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hello!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

When posting please be mindful that this forum is primarily about the death of a three year old girl.

Regards,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

Carole Tranmer

Page 4 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by cbeagle on 23.09.15 15:43

@Tony Bennett wrote:

I have reviewed this thread and as it's been well over 3 years since the last post, it's certainly overdue for an update.

The central issue, as with so many other witnesses in this case, is whether both Pamela Fenn and her niece, Carole Tranmer, are witnesses of truth.

[*** CORRECTED BELOW In analysing their statements, the first thing to note is that neither came forward until over three months had elapsed since Madeleine was reported missing].

[*** CORRECTION Now amended so as to read: In analysing their statements, the first thing to note is that it was not until 18 August that anybody had heard of them].

Could you explain that more?

Carole Trammer made a statement on 8th May 2007 to Leicestershire Police, so she came forward within a few days.

How can her statement be analyzed to say she didn't come forward for over three months?

cbeagle

Posts : 82
Reputation : 27
Join date : 2014-08-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Tony Bennett on 23.09.15 15:57

@cbeagle wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:

I have reviewed this thread and as it's been well over 3 years since the last post, it's certainly overdue for an update.

The central issue, as with so many other witnesses in this case, is whether both Pamela Fenn and her niece, Carole Tranmer, are witnesses of truth.

[*** CORRECTED BELOW In analysing their statements, the first thing to note is that neither came forward until over three months had elapsed since Madeleine was reported missing].

[*** CORRECTION Now amended so as to read: In analysing their statements, the first thing to note is that it was not until 18 August that anybody had heard of them].

Could you explain that more?

Carole Trammer made a statement on 8th May 2007 to Leicestershire Police, so she came forward within a few days.

How can her statement be analyzed to say she didn't come forward for over three months?
You are quite right, Carole Tranmer did make a statement early on. I cannot be sure if Mrs Fenn also did at the time.

I have made a correction to my post on the previous page.

Thanks for pointing out the error

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


Tony Bennett
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 14235
Reputation : 2449
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Harlow, Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by sallypelt on 23.09.15 16:19

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:This is an extract from Carole-Anne Tramner's statement  to the Leicester Police, on 22.4.2008:

CT'After arriving home, Sunday morning we woke and read the Times Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's apartment and the notice about the missing child.*** I did not want to believe it and for this reason telephoned her and said: 'Did you see'' to which she responded 'It was been an inferno, terrible since both of you left'. After this I spoke with my cousin, whose son is at Sandhurst and told her 'What do you think we should do, do you think'' because at this time I remembered that I had seen something. It did not come to me right away but afterwards I told my husband 'Well, I saw that funny situation, you know'that type of behavior of the individual, with a sneaky aspect' to which he responded, 'Well you should talk to the police', and I said 'Yes, but it is likely that it has nothing to do with it'. After, we thought a bit more about it and I telephoned my cousin who is at Sandhurst and he told me that I should call the police and tell them. I did exactly this. I telephoned the Windsor police and told them, more or less, what I had told him and to my family. They told me that they would give me a number to call the Leicester police. We passed by the Windsor squadron but it is clear that no one was there so I called the Leciester police and told them basically what I had seen. They told me, well'thank you, we are going to get in touch with you, and after that everything happened. This is what happened, more or less.

***  So, it wasn't until they "arrived home" and read it in the Times Newspaper, on the SUNDAY, that CT learned about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?? The whole world knew about the child's disappearance by the Saturday. So, Mrs Fenn never phoned her niece to tell her about Madeleine going missing?

Stop feeding us BS.

@ sallypelt   Well done, thanks for picking that out.

It is a bit reminiscent of Martin Smith being jolted into life by his son Peter's "Was I dreaming?" moment.

I think IIRC Carole Tranmer says she was in Praia da Luz the very same week that the McCanns were there.

Have a careful look at what she says about her stay, the reasons for it, and about her alleged visits to Mrs Fenn on both the Sunday and Thursday (in the Rogatory Statement - it takes a while to digest on a first read through) and see what you make of it.

Her 'balcony photograph' could have been taken anywhen.

Given what you have posted above, I am not convinced that she was in Portugal at all that week.

And the claim that she witnessed her 81-year-old aunt diving to grab the burglar by the ankle as he leapt out of the window - with a 15-foot drop in front of him - gives me a real good belly-laugh every time I think about it  

Sorry for the late response. I have been working away in my kitchen making TRADITIONAL Cornish pasties  tongue

Tony, from what I read earlier, CT and her husband were in Portugal looking for property, as they were intending to move there, They are probably there now, as there is nothing to say they are now in the UK.

sallypelt

Posts : 3362
Reputation : 597
Join date : 2012-11-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by sallypelt on 23.09.15 16:43

Guest wrote:Here is a list of all the questions put forward to Carole Tranmer.  There is some very interesting, specific line of questioning in that interview, that might open up other lines of enquiry..

Name, date of birth and address

occupation, I believe, you are retired

What was your occupation before retirement

Did you like what you did

Do you have children

You have no children, therefore, do you live alone with your husband

How long have you been married

In the same location

Same house, yes

You told me that you worked at Windsor Castle

Did you know the Queen

Personally or

How did that happen

And did you speak to the Queen or Philip

And Diana, did you know Diana

What I am about to ask you Caroline, is to make an introduction, that you tell me a bit about yourself and how you managed or organised your stay in Portugal during the time of the disappearance

Could it have been Pinhal do Sol

Did they visit you at work

Were they at all unaccommodating

The fact that they came to visit you

I would like to clarify in your statement On the 28th of May, 2008 my husband and I, Chris TRANMER, caught a flight to Portugal to spend a week of holidays in the eastern Algarve and in addition, to look for properties to buy. 'We stayed in a location called Quarteira, is that so

Well then, it was after, after the disappearance of Madeleine, was it not

Let me show you what you said, where I want to arrive, ma'am, you returned to Portugal after the disappearance of Madeleine

So that date is incorrect

April, this is it then

It says here, Saturday, the 28th of May

And here it says May, thus this statement is incorrect, right

Good. Let us clarify the statement collected on the 8th of May, relative to the dates referred to

In fact it should be Saturday, the 28th of April

Good, then in relation to the date, everything is now correct

Yes, good. Relative to what you said happened on Thursday, your statement states that Thursday, the 3rd, you went to visit your aunt. Therefore, you saw her on Sunday

And after that you went in search of properties

Passing through the eastern Algarve, right

Thursday, the 3rd of May

You returned to your aunt in Praia. Now tell me from where you were coming and tell me about that day

This was on Sunday, right

This on Thursday, I understand

It was a two hour trip then

Speak to me about the apartment where your aunt lives

It is obviously called, given its location, the Ocean Club, right

How long has she been there, in that apartment

ground floor... ground floor, first floor

Third floor

Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right

And when you enter, give me a description of the apartment

When you are on the terrace, to which direction are you turned

Who else lives there

And who else lives with her

And you can confirm that it is block 5G

And the name of, and the number of the apartment, 5G

Apartment 20

Waterside Gardens

Very good. When you look outside, as you mentioned a while ago, when you spoke of the view at which you were turned when you enter the terrace, tell me, what do you see below that area

Okay. And did you see anyone else; you know what day it was; the day you were there, on Thursday. Do you know if there were more tourists in that block of apartments

Was there anyone who called your attention, think, think well about the location and where you were on this day

Besides the individual, obviously

When you speak of a celebration, was it was a barbeque or a bunch of people in good moods

When you were there, did you visit the supermarket

Try to position yourself during the second visit; given what happened on Thursday, think about the hour you arrived. Think about whether someone welcomed you when you exited the car. Ok

And did you go on foot or by car

How long did the journey take

Okay. What was the restaurant called

It is a restaurant that serves fish

On top of the hill

Did you go to the Tapas Bar with your aunt

And the courts, did you visit the tennis courts

You did not use the pool

And the crèche did you go to the crèche zone where the children were

Okay. How many times were you there exactly

Okay. When you were there how was the temperature

The (inaudible) people. What I will do next Carole, is to show you a part of a map, okay, and I will ask you to outline some parts as well

You spoke, you spoke of, of, of another man you saw

You saw him leaving your aunt's terrace

This, this is a map, it only covers the Luz area and he have here, if you can imagine, or even see exactly, the block of apartments.

This is rua estreita

The passageway, right., point me to the direction from which the individual came.

And if you could show me in the way a camera captures an image. From, from which apartment did he leave and to where did he go and where were you

Look to the bottom where you were looking, if you want. You were looking to the bottom to the right and downwards, but this is not towards the lower apartment but is actually slightly to the right and there is her veranda and finally, here on top, for I would say that here there is a small gate, for this reason it was not this apartment in the end, that is what I wanted to say, you know

No, it was not the first gate

How many gates are there in total

Okay, and your direction was this way, following the passageway or to the other direction towards the shrubs

In the inside

Would you mind making me an outline, please

If you would, if you make it, if you could make the same one as this block here

And after, please mark an X in the location where you saw this man leaving

And after where, where is the gate in relation to the area from where he left.

And can you tell me if he came out of an apartment or was simply exiting the complex

From an apartment

Did the gate give direct access to the apartment

In your opinion, is it possible that he was leaving his apartment, next to the last apartment

Yes and after you saw him leave, what happened

With caution

So what you are saying is that he looked first in your direction' He looked to you, but he was not positioned. This way

Then he looked to the left

And after he cautiously and slowly pushed it and afterwards looked to the right, and continued walking

He then went in this direction to the street, here, this street



Along here in this direction towards the supermarket

Then on your map, where do you believe you saw him for the last time

Yes, then, the last location at which you saw him, he would have been, would it be possible that the last time you saw him, he was passing the apartments in direction of the street

I am not here to put words in your mouth, or ideas in your head Carole, but it is possible that the last time you saw him he was only passing through, as I have already indicated from the location of the McCann apartment. The last time you saw him was passing by the McCann apartment then

Then Mrs. Tranmer, what happened first, did you lose sight of him or did he disappear from your line if sight

So you turned

You turned

With your back to him

Then before you turned, he was still visible

And you as well

This is great, it is great, it is clear, okay. I am going to now try to ask a series of questions that the Portuguese police would like to ask you, okay

Perhaps you have already answered before but what I want you to do, it to respond with as much detail possible. Good, the first questions is ' do you attest to you statement given to the British police in May of two thousand'eight of may of 2007. Do you attest to the statement that was made on this day to the police, the same statement that I showed you on the 8th of May

This statement is yours

I will only, it is not necessary to read, but I am going to show you as it is necessary to confirm your statement and that it is your statement

Okay, thank you, and the only anomaly is the incorrect date

April

Well, I am going to help you refresh your memory a new and back to when this individual appeared

You have already stated that is was on Thursday because this was the day you visited your aunt

And at what time, I need to come to a definitive time with the hours

What do you think, it was not after the... and it was not before the



I assume that I was there, I was there between...we were there around 11, 10 or 11. We took my aunt, we must have left around 11h30, a quarter to noon, and in order to go to the restaurant. Now it may have been a bit early. We had a coffee before we left and really strange to me is the feeling that it could have happened then'I feel that it was when we returned and were drinking coffee

Then you mentioned previously, you said before that you left around 6h30

So, let us recap

How much time

Then for a total of three hours, and there were (inaudible) for three hours, yes

Good, you left around 8h30, sorry




What time before this did you see the individual

It does not matter that you are trying to guess, it does not matter that you guess

Well, we have already been at this for one hour and have made good progress. We are moving along very well. It is very difficult

You were there two hours

To go to the restaurant

Okay, I think I am happy that you saw this individual in the afternoon

Did anyone visit your apartment


So our window is between

3:30

And if I were to give you hints, because you could ask yourself this, was it at the beginning of your stay, close to 3:30

More, more than 5:30

Well think, think about the possibility of 3:30, would you say 4:30

Well, given the window of between 3:30 and 4:30



Okay, and you told me that you were on your aunt's terrace

Okay, and what is there on the terrace

Then it was not a specific look below, we will call it a glance

Then was it necessary to look more furtively

Okay, your path was like this, when you were in the apartment and walked out, can you see the direction on the terrace



How much time to get there from you room

From the door or from where

So leaving the apartment one must get up but if one is seated on the terrace

And if sitting next to the terrace wall

Can you see, is it possible for people to pass through the top and below

Okay. To jog your memory to remember the topic of conversation, I mean, you confirmed that the individual called your attention but after that you turned to speak with your husband. Can you remember what you said to your husband

Was this individual accompanied by anyone



Okay, the next thing is the description, this will be difficult for you, I know, but try and remember as much as possible even if they are details that may appear... ohh. Assume that I know nothing

Presuppose that I have just entered this investigation, that I do not know about your previous statement; that I know nothing about this individual

Could you give him an age

And his aspect

And when he walked, did he have any particular walk or limp

You told me he did not have tattoos; was he wearing any jewellery

And his T-shirt, you spoke to me about his T-shirt, did it have an inscription

And the T-shirt, did it have buttons or was it simply something that went up to the neck

Yes, and was it loose-fitting

Did it fit him loosely

And he was well-shaven



Yes without a beard or did you notice anything else

Spectacles

He did not use sunglasses



Okay, and for how long did you think you saw him

And I know that you pointed to the map, as you know, that you were on the third floor and he was here, this is, rua estreita, as you revealed

And how, what is your opinion; are you good at measuring distances

You refer to the top of the double-decker, the double-decker until the end

I though you said that you were capable of being precise

Have you looked here to outside

Is it roughly the same height

Are the apartments have high ceilings or low-ceilings

They are higher than this

Or it could be, we are speaking, if I told you 30 metres, twenty meters, thirty metres, 40 metres, which do you think it would be'

Feet and inches

Yes, because there we were also on the top of a hill

And the temperature, you told me that the temperature was cold but it was sunny on this day or were you covered

It seems to me that you would recognise this individual were you to see him again

Okay, and you told me, when we were speaking of his behaviour, you told me that he left and shut the gate very slowly after himself, that he had to turn. With both his hands

He turned and pulled the gate, he pulled or pushed the gate closed

Because it opens from the inside

Yes, then when you saw him leave, he had to pull the gate in his direction

Okay, and you told me that he was doing this stealthily, what do you mean by stealthily

This was the photo-sketch that you reproduced

Yes, I was intrigued that the reason for his sunglasses

Then you are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made

No, but the hair is the same

I know that the image is not very good

The format of the face is the same, the format of the mouth is the same

But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch

No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin

Well, do you remember the name of the person who made the photo with you

Tasmin, does that have any significance for you



Yes, from Reading

Well, there must be some confusion. I would like to finally ask you regarding your aunt, Pamela FENN

Speak to me about her

Yes... where she used to live, you told me that she moved there in 2003

So she still has family in England

Where do they live

Is there anybody in the family called (inaudible), any younger member called FENN

They are all FENN

And girls

So there are no girls with the name FENN

And the children

They are all FENN'S. What are their names

Okay. Finally Carole, I would like to go over with you the photos you brought with you, which you showed to me before the interview

Please clarify for me, when these were taken, who took it, and...

If we select this photograph, I will show it to you, okay

This one shows you



Yes

Oh, that one... hummm. Where the McCanns stayed

That is the gate where you saw the individual

Where you stood



I will (inaudible) see something. Image 50590 okay, that I what I will call it

Image 0590 is one of your pictures

And you are looking below

And tell me where is the gate, in relation to the rest

To your right

At what time of the day do you think this photograph was taken

It was taken on Sunday

I will make copies of these photographs, later, after completing your statement.

And I have this as your proof and evidence

Right, okay

I will see what I (inaudible) can do with them



Okay, I will get up for two minutes and ask my colleague if any fact has escaped me

Hello, I have returned. I apologise for the length of my absence (inaudible), my colleague was trying to get a better quality photograph copy, the one I showed him was very, very light, wasn't it

Does this bring back memories

No, but if you could imagine him without sunglasses, is it very difficult

This was made by another witness, who affirms having seen a man who corresponds to his description but...

Okay, but this one

What did he do

He was from Reading

Did he leave a card or another contact

Is the name recognisable

Where did they go

They went to your office

How many of them were there



I am not suggesting that he, he

Yes, I am not suggesting this, simply
, I want you to help me find him

You told me that he was young
He was in his youth

You have a fantastic memory, did you know that


Good, I will ask you to contact us first, unless you have a preference

And call me after or

I keep all my appointments and if there is anything, because when I was working, I was better organised compared to when I do nothing

Because
he must have said his name and the visit and you may have made a note in your agenda

Okay. Some questions that were asked of me need clarification, first you told me everything that you saw when he was at the gate. In what direction he was looking when he exited; when he was preparing to leave; when he began walking through the gate and consequently, already outside the gate

How much time, how much time did he look to the left

Like he was stopping to look

Did someone else see him



You would not have stayed there and

Very good. Is there anything else you would like to add, given that eleven months have passed when you first spoke of this

Had you seen anyone prior, anyone at all, leaving by that gate before

And do you remember if it was occupied at that time

Was there anyone there, who perhaps put out clothing

Do you know if your aunt knew of anyone staying as a guest, or mentioned that someone was staying there





Questions from the Letter of Request:
XV - Interview to the witness CAROLE ANNE TRAMMER, PAMELA FENN'S niece, who lives in the apartment above the one used by the McCANN family, to be identified by the Requested Authority. She should be asked the following questions :

* Do you confirm your Statements, taken by the British Police in the United Kingdom, on 8th May, 2007 ?

* On what day, in what place and at what time did you see an individual nearby the apartment from where MADELEINE McCANN disappeared (please locate it on a map or sketch it) ?

* Where were you at the time you saw that person ? Did anyone else see him too ?

* How would you describe him ? How was he dressed ?

* What were his actions ? At what point were you no longer able to see him ?

* What was his behaviour like ? Where was he looking at and how was he doing it ?

* Do you recognise him in the photo-fit made by the witness TASMIN SILENCE, which is enclosed to the Letter of Request ?

* Any further questions deemed useful, necessary or pertinent in view of the previous replies.

This was posted back in 2012 by "Guest"

This is snipped from the above:

"I would like to clarify in your statement On the 28th of May, 2008 my husband and I, Chris TRANMER, caught a flight to Portugal to spend a week of holidays in the eastern Algarve and in addition, to look for properties to buy. 'We stayed in a location called Quarteira, is that so"

The date has been corrected to 28 April. But surely it should be 2007, not 2008? However, CT is giving the reason why she's there in Portugal, which is "  to look for properties to buy. 'We stayed in a location called Quarteira, is that so"

sallypelt

Posts : 3362
Reputation : 597
Join date : 2012-11-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Verdi on 23.09.15 20:35

I think the statement allegedly made by Carole Tranmer to Leicester Police on 8th May 2007, should be viewed with caution.  If you carefully read the rogatory interview of 22nd April 2008, with the ever present DC Messiah, there doesn't appear to be any confirmation that a statement was taken by Leicester Constabulary on the 8th - even more ambiguous is the alleged sketch of the individual with a sneaky aspect fiddling about with the gate outside apt. 5a.

Before reading the following, first ask yourself why Carole Tranmer contacted her cousin whose son is at Sandhurst to ask what she should do.  If you think you have important information to impart that involves the disappearance of a a young child, wouldn't the natural course be to contact the police?  Why did Tranmer seek the advice of her cousin whose son is at Sandhurst - is that relevant in some way to MBM's disappearance?

Read on..

[color:991e=000000]After arriving home, Sunday morning we woke and read the Times Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's apartment and the notice about the missing child. I did not want to believe it and for this reason telephoned her and said: 'Did you see'' to which she responded 'It was been an inferno, terrible since both of you left'. After this I spoke with my cousin, whose son is at Sandhurst and told her 'What do you think we should do, do you think'' because at this time I remembered that I had seen something. It did not come to me right away but afterwards I told my husband 'Well, I saw that funny situation, you know'that type of behavior of the individual, with a sneaky aspect' to which he responded, 'Well you should talk to the police', and I said 'Yes, but it is likely that it has nothing to do with it'. After, we thought a bit more about it and I telephoned my cousin who is at Sandhurst and he told me that I should call the police and tell them. I did exactly this. I telephoned the Windsor police and told them, more or less, what I had told him and to my family. They told me that they would give me a number to call the Leicester police. We passed by the Windsor squadron but it is clear that no one was there so I called the Leciester police and told them basically what I had seen. They told me, well'thank you, we are going to get in touch with you, and after that everything happened. This is what happened, more or less.

CT'Thus, this was when I called them, that is when you, sir, called me.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'After that, you booked a meeting time so that someone could come and speak with me

DC1485'Yes.

CT'And I was working temporarily (inaudible) for the Royal Borough of Maidenhead.

DC1485'Did they visit you at work'

CT'Yes, they came to the office as they asked me what would be easier and I told them that it would be easier if they could come to me so that I would not miss too much work and'

DC1485'Yes.

CT'Then, I arranged a room and they came to visit.

DC1485'Wonderful.

CT'Mmm

DC1485'Were they at all unaccommodating'

CT'No.

DC1485'The fact that they came to visit you.

CT'No, no, truthfully, I am only trying to help.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'An after having spoken to them, I received a call from someone in Reading asking me to help in trying to create what they called an 'identi-kit'.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'They asked me 'if it was possible' and I responded 'yes, of course' and they came from Reading. I reserved another room for them and it was in this way that everything happened, and'

~~~~~~

Dinner gong just gone off..  What follows indicates a very bit question mark over the veracity of the Reading squad which makes me wonder about this alleged statement taken by Leicester Police on 8th May 2007.  She also made a statement on 28th May and a very brief statement on 15th May 2008 in addition to April 2008?

Must dash...

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

Verdi

Posts : 4152
Reputation : 2543
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Tony Bennett on 23.09.15 21:28

@Verdi wrote:I think the statement allegedly made by Carole Tranmer to Leicester Police on 8th May 2007, should be viewed with caution.  If you carefully read the roI think the statement allegedly made by Carole Tranmer to Leicester Police on 8th May 2007, should be viewed with caution.  If you carefully read the rogatory interview of 22nd April 2008, with the ever present DC Messiah, there doesn't appear to be any confirmation that a statement was taken by Leicester Constabulary on the 8th - even more ambiguous is the alleged sketch of the individual with a sneaky aspect fiddling about with the gate outside apt. 5a...What follows indicates a very bit question mark over the veracity of the 'Reading squad' which makes me wonder about this alleged statement taken by Leicester Police on 8th May 2007... 
@ Verdi

Thank you very much.

I think that when I posted this morning and wrote that the first time Carol Tranmer and Pamela Fenn contacted the police it was August, I did actually have in mind that the so-called 'Reading police officer's visit' might be a fabrication.


'cbeagle' was right to correct me, on the face of what s/he read (so I made the correction), but as you very rightly inform us there is a very big QUESTION MARK hanging over this alleged visit and any statement to Leics Police on 8th May.

IIRC D C Messiah probes Carole Tranmer on this point and CT says the police officer came on his own with a laptop. But these days, on most similar investigations, police officers invariably come in pairs.  
 
And surely if she had made a statement to Leicestershire Police, there would be a statement released in the PJ DVD? Her statement, in view of its importance, would surely have been despatched immediately to Portugal (unless your name's 'Gaspar' and you have evidence about members of the Tapas 7 inserting a finger I and out of their mouths and doing circular motions around their nipples, in which case the order goes out: "Wait till Gordon Brown's got rid of Amaral".

I trust when your dinner has gone down, no doubt helped on its way (looking at your avatar) by what I imagine will be a generously-sized glass of best port (Portuguese of course), you will be able to give us all the benefit of your further considerations   

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


Tony Bennett
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 14235
Reputation : 2449
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Harlow, Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by skyrocket on 23.09.15 22:13

@Verdi

The statements were as follows:

1. 8 May 2007 - Carole Tranmer statement to Leics Police.

2. 22 April 2008 - Carole Tranmer Rogatory to DC Ivor Messiah of Leics Police.

Including this comment made by DC Messiah:


DC1485  'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.


3. 15 May 2008 - Statement made by DC Ivor Messiah to accompany Tranmer Rogatory.

4. 28 May 2008 - No statement. This was the date noted incorrectly in the 8 May 2007 statement as the date the Tranmers arrived in Portugal. Corrected in 22 April 2008 Rogatory, to 28 April 2007.


@Tony Bennett

I believe the lone young man with the laptop was actually the mysterious person from Reading who made the photo-sketch of the individual Carole Tranmer states she saw on the Mc's steps, rather than the police officer from Leics Police who took her original statement in May 2007.

With regard to her statement not appearing in the PJ files released - there are over 30 statements which don't appear (and probably considerably more). Makes you wonder what she did say in the original that warranted it being kept under wraps by the PJ.

skyrocket

Posts : 489
Reputation : 452
Join date : 2015-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Tony Bennett on 23.09.15 22:31

@skyrocket wrote:@Verdi

The statements were as follows:

1. 8 May 2007 - Carole Tranmer statement to Leics Police.

2. 22 April 2008 - Carole Tranmer Rogatory to DC Ivor Messiah of Leics Police.

Including this comment made by DC Messiah:


DC1485  'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.


3. 15 May 2008 - Statement made by DC Ivor Messiah to accompany Tranmer Rogatory.

4. 28 May 2008 - No statement. This was the date noted incorrectly in the 8 May 2007 statement as the date the Tranmers arrived in Portugal. Corrected in 22 April 2008 Rogatory, to 28 April 2007.


@Tony Bennett

I believe the lone young man with the laptop was actually the mysterious person from Reading who made the photo-sketch of the individual Carole Tranmer states she saw on the Mc's steps, rather than the police officer from Leics Police who took her original statement in May 2007.

With regard to her statement not appearing in the PJ files released - there are over 30 statements which don't appear (and probably considerably more). Makes you wonder what she did say in the original that warranted it being kept under wraps by the PJ.
That is very helpful, thank you.

So, unless Verdi thinks different, there was indeed a Carole Tranmer statement to the Leics Police on 8 May, but it didn't appear on the DVD either:

(a) because it was never sent, or
(b) it got 'lost in the post', or
(c) was one of the statements withheld from the DVD

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


Tony Bennett
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 14235
Reputation : 2449
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Harlow, Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Verdi on 23.09.15 23:09

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:I think the statement allegedly made by Carole Tranmer to Leicester Police on 8th May 2007, should be viewed with caution.  If you carefully read the roI think the statement allegedly made by Carole Tranmer to Leicester Police on 8th May 2007, should be viewed with caution.  If you carefully read the rogatory interview of 22nd April 2008, with the ever present DC Messiah, there doesn't appear to be any confirmation that a statement was taken by Leicester Constabulary on the 8th - even more ambiguous is the alleged sketch of the individual with a sneaky aspect fiddling about with the gate outside apt. 5a...What follows indicates a very bit question mark over the veracity of the 'Reading squad' which makes me wonder about this alleged statement taken by Leicester Police on 8th May 2007... 
@ Verdi

Thank you very much.

I think that when I posted this morning and wrote that the first time Carol Tranmer and Pamela Fenn contacted the police it was August, I did actually have in mind that the so-called 'Reading police officer's visit' might be a fabrication.


'cbeagle' was right to correct me, on the face of what s/he read (so I made the correction), but as you very rightly inform us there is a very big QUESTION MARK hanging over this alleged visit and any statement to Leics Police on 8th May.

IIRC D C Messiah probes Carole Tranmer on this point and CT says the police officer came on his own with a laptop. But these days, on most similar investigations, police officers invariably come in pairs.  
 
And surely if she had made a statement to Leicestershire Police, there would be a statement released in the PJ DVD? Her statement, in view of its importance, would surely have been despatched immediately to Portugal (unless your name's 'Gaspar' and you have evidence about members of the Tapas 7 inserting a finger I and out of their mouths and doing circular motions around their nipples, in which case the order goes out: "Wait till Gordon Brown's got rid of Amaral".

I trust when your dinner has gone down, no doubt helped on its way (looking at your avatar) by what I imagine will be a generously-sized glass of best port (Portuguese of course), you will be able to give us all the benefit of your further considerations   
Had to give up on the port during March 1884 - plays havoc with ones hallux!

Firstly I apologize for the messy post, it was OK when it left me but somehow took on a life of it's own before appearing.  So to continue..

From my experience of dealing with the law (on the right side of course), police officers turn up in person to have a poke around (as you say, always in pairs) and ask local questions but if a formal statement is required then a witness is asked to visit the local police station for this purpose.  There must be at least one hundred miles between Leicester and Windsor (Tranmer's location), Leicester police will not travel down to Windsor to interview a witness, they will request the nearest station to interview the witness/s on their behalf.

So, according to the rogatory interview, she contacted Windsor police who gave her a number to call Leicester police.  She (we) then passed by Windsor squadron (is she referring to police or the airforce - I don't honestly know), it was clear no one was there, so she called Leicester police and told them basically what she saw - having already been told to do so by Windsor police/squadron.  She then goes on to say:  "They told me, well'thank you, we are going to get in touch with you, and after that everything happened."  What everything is she referring to I wonder?

I can see no evidence that an interview took place between Carole Tranmer and Leciester police.  At best she may have telephoned them to report the individual with the sneaky aspect (Tannerman?) but even that's doubtful considering the alleged visit by some shady character from Reading, armed with a laptop and little else to recommend him - even Tranmer doesn't seem able to verify his authenticity.

Somewhere along the line she said that she heard rumblings about a missing child at the airport (IIRC - presumably Faro) but it didn't occur to her that the individual with the sneaky aspect that she saw in the broad light of day fiddling about with the gate leading to apt 5a might have some connection, yet when they read the Sunday Times after waking on the following Sunday, alarm bells started ringing, enough to call her cousin whose son was at Sandhurst?  Didn't Peter Smith say much the same thing about hearing news of a missing child at the airport?

Things don't add up in my view.  Leicester Constabulary have played a major role in this saga, starting with Stuart 'call me Stu' Prior very early in the official PJ investigation;  failure to produce vital information required by the PJ;  withholding information concerning the McCann couple and their daughter;  rapidly disappearing off the scene when things were not looking good for the McCanns;  administering the UK rogatory interviews by careful management of the questions to be asked and how they were asked (many at the request of the McCanns) - to name but a few.

It has been suggested by some internet case enthusiasts, that the Leicester police files relative to the case of MBM are confidential and not be be shared with the world at large.  This I agree with in principal but..  the primary investigator in this case was and still is, the Portuguese, therefore any information the UK authorities may possess that relates in any way shape or form, should be forwarded to the Portuguese - including any formal written statement or informal verbal statement by  Carole Tranmer.  Although I'm quite sure not all the PJ case files were released into the public arena, I can't see any reason why Carole Tranmer should be excluded if indeed it ever transpired.

I'm sure there's a lot more to cover (or uncover) in due course.

ETA: 

Witness statement of Pamela Fenn PJ Files - 20th August 2007

On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece CAROLE during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCANN apartment, a situation which has been told to the police, her cousin even made a photo fit.

(she doesn't specify whether this is the she cousin with the son at Sandhurst, the he cousin that is at Sandhurst or some other cousin.  Thought that was a job for the police!)

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

Verdi

Posts : 4152
Reputation : 2543
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by sharonl on 23.09.15 23:25

When did Leics Police actually get involved in this case?

Carole says that Windor police told her to contact Leics police.  Would they really have told her to do that before Leics police became involved? Or would they have interviewed her and forwarded her statement to the Portuguese Police?

____________________
"WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER" - Rebekah Brooks to David Cameron

sharonl


Posts : 3658
Reputation : 497
Join date : 2009-12-29

View user profile http://www.cold2012.org.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Verdi on 23.09.15 23:33

@sharonl wrote:When did Leics Police actually get involved in this case?

Carole says that Windor police told her to contact Leics police.  Would they really have told her to do that before Leics police became involved? Or would they have interviewed her and forwarded her statement to the Portuguese Police?
Preecisely! thumbsup

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

Verdi

Posts : 4152
Reputation : 2543
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by cbeagle on 24.09.15 0:58

So, unless Verdi thinks different, there was indeed a Carole Tranmer statement to the Leics Police on 8 May, but it didn't appear on the DVD either: wrote:
(a) because it was never sent, or
(b) it got 'lost in the post', or
(c) was one of the statements withheld from the DVD

If it was c), then is there any legal guidelines on what can and cannot be released once the investigation was closed?

Ie. under what Portuguese law was the evidence released with portions of it withheld?

cbeagle

Posts : 82
Reputation : 27
Join date : 2014-08-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by skyrocket on 24.09.15 8:56

@CBeagle

We know for certain that quite a lot of statements haven't been released. I started a thread a few months ago to collate any statements that members felt were missing from the files - missing items might actually give a better indication of who actually saw/said anything of real relevance. Perhaps ALL the good stuff has been held back. Would seem sensible otherwise any suspects would be given all the time in the world to come up with 'explanations'. I don't know what the legal process for this is - whether it needed a court order for instance.

@Verdi - I think possibly that you've used a misquote copied from elsewhere regarding what Mrs Fenn stated - she actually said 'her family member even made a photo fit' rather than cousin.


Although I have no reason per se to doubt Mrs Fenn's words, a couple of things do bother me. Her words make it clear that she thought or knew that 'the parents' were absent on the evening of 1 May when she heard a young child crying, which she attributed to possibly one of three things: a nightmare; another destabalizing factor; or an attempted burglary. She states that she was worried but that the crying stopped when the parents arrived via the patio door, although she 'didn't see them'. She would know that the patio door was therefore unlocked. She also tells of an incident the week before when a burglar attempted to get into her own apartment. 

If she assumed the children were on their own (because of the persistent crying or because she had possibly seen the Mc's leaving for the tapas), and particularly in light of the burglary revelations, why didn't she contact night reception and inform them, just to be on the safe side? This becomes even a bigger question for me at 11.45pm when she heard the patio door opening but she didn't actually see the parents. Why did she assume it was 'the parents'? Why did she assume it was someone entering and not leaving? She was accepting that the door must have been unlocked. Why did she not have very loud alarm bells ringing? Later, during interview, why did she not make a comment to the police about the Mc's leaving the patio door unlocked (re: lack of security) and say something along the lines of 'who would do that with young children in there on their own all night'?


The only possible explanations I have is that, like many elderly people living alone, Mrs Fenn had a vantage point from which she used to watch the comings and goings and was aware of a lot more than she revealed. Was it possible from the set up of her apartment? It looks like she would have to be on the balcony to have any clear view of use of the patio doors? She makes it clear that she knew who the family were by sight as she had seen them 'in the street', so she was obviously observing during the day. Again, this makes it seem odd that she didn't intervene on the 1 May - she would have known that there were 3 young children in 5A and anything could have happened when she heard the prolonged crying. Did she actually see KM return at 22.15pm (suggested by the phone records) before the crying started? Did she know the children were not alone? Was it KM crying 'Maddie' rather than MBM crying 'daddy'? I don't know.


Perhaps Mrs Fenn was just a polite, 'old-fashioned' lady who didn't like to be seen to be poking her nose in too much, or getting involved. 

skyrocket

Posts : 489
Reputation : 452
Join date : 2015-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Verdi on 24.09.15 13:00

@skyrocket

My source for Pamela Fenn's witness statement was mccannfiles.com - I quoted word for word.  I am however more inclined to accept the mccannpjfiles translation by Innes, which as you say identifies a family member, not specifically a cousin.  A more reliable source confirmed by the copy of the original document in Portuguese.  It's really a moot point anyway, fact remains that she claims a photofit was made by a family member.

I am aware of DC Messiah's words relative to a statement allegedly made by Tranmer sometime in May 2007, which I deliberately ignored.  If you read through Tranmer's rogatory interview very carefully apart from the origin of the alleged May 2007 interview being very unclear, you will see that she is very unsure of the days/dates during her trip/s to Portugal, ostensibly in search of property (quite possibly through the agency of R Murat).  She also puts much emphasis on her movements on the Sunday and Thursday - which eventually turns out to be 3rd May.  Haven't got time to elaborate but this caught my eye..

DC1485'Okay. And did you see anyone else; you know what day it was; the day you were there, on Thursday. Do you know if there were more tourists in that block of apartments'

CT' No, that is to say, there were more people in the pool zone. There were more people around. I believe that it may be possible some were swimming, or even playing tennis. I cannot remember.

DC1485'Was there anyone who called your attention' Think, think well about the location and where you were on this day.

CT' On that day'

DC1485'Besides the individual, obviously.

CT' Besides him...

DC1485'Yes.

CT' No one comes to mind. The one thing that I do remember is that some celebration was going on, but I don't know if it was the Sunday or the Thursday. There was some celebration, next to the pool. I do not know if it was the families, the guests of the complex, but there was something. The only thing I can say is that it could have been Sunday or Thursday. I cannot remember and for this reason I would like to leave out this detail.

DC1485'When you speak of a celebration' was it was a barbeque or a bunch of people in good moods'

CT' Well, it appeared to be a celebration, you know, with all the people in good moods and a lot of noise' not much noise but people were laughing and I do not know if this was on Sunday or Thursday.

DC1485'Yes.

CT' This detail I will not mention since I am not certain if it was Sunday or Thursday. Yes, and I don't want to confuse my recollection with this.

DC1485'Yes.

CT' Mmm, but I believe that there is nothing more. I cannot remember anything more about anyone; nothing more about this.



I don't recall anyone else mentioning this poolside activity.

~~~~~~

NB:  This rogatory interview was conducted by the same DC Messiah that allowed a particular comment made by David Payne to go unnoticed..

1485 "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth''


Reply "Err the, there are a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up.'

1485 "Okay. And finally, Mr PRIOR....
   

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

Verdi

Posts : 4152
Reputation : 2543
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by sallypelt on 24.09.15 13:39

This is copied and pasted from SteelMagnolia's Blog. (May she rest in peace, knowing that her work is of such value, today):



Kate McCann you are a spiteful woman and I must right this wrong on behalf of Mrs.Pamela Fenn.

Kate McCann has insulted the memory of Mrs.Pamela Fenn. Kate has been deceitful and time and time again as bloggers, we have seen her story change to suit her moments. BUT today I must speak-up for a lady who can no longer defend herself ,a lady who has died , Mrs.Fenn, also a witness to the nights events of May 3rd and reported  incident from the evening of May 1st.


Kate hated Mrs.Fenn, this is obvious by the words she has written in her book. Why did Kate hate Pamela? I have posted here Mrs.Fenns police witness statement and you will see for yourself Pamela was very kind to the McCanns enquiring whether they wanted to use her phone to call the police. Gerry said  the police had already been called, Gerry lied, at this point no one had notified the authorities.


The reason Kate disliked Mrs Fenn , she had told the police she heard a child screaming for over an hour on May 1st proving the McCanns did not check their children as often as they would like the world to believe.


Kates words taken from her book:

MRS FENN(REFERRED TO AS THE LADY UPSTAIRS) DID ENQUIRE AS WHAT ALL THE NOISE WAS ABOUT, and was informed A CHILD WAS MISSING,  she replied according to Kate ' IS THAT ALL' OR SOMETHING SIMILIAR AS IF A CAN OF BEANS WAS MISSING.

Here are Mrs Fenns words taken from her statement as you can see they are not the cruel harsh words Kate McCann would like her readers to believe...

 I hope by rectifying this terrible wrong Mrs.Pamela Fenn will now be allowed to rest in peace.



She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below.




At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.


As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.

That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.

She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCanns apartment, situation which has been told to the police, her family member even made a photo fit"
 

During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. 


Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously.


Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted.

When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below.


 She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios.

At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.



She said that after the mothers shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl.

She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognise the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search.


When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors. She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

sallypelt

Posts : 3362
Reputation : 597
Join date : 2012-11-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Guest on 24.09.15 20:26


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Verdi on 24.09.15 20:36

One thing I find very strange about Fenn and Tremnar is their peripheral standing in this case - would be key witnesses, plenty to say but nothing constructive to say to assist furthering the initial official investigation. 

As Tony said when regenerating this subject..   "In analysing their statements, the first thing to note is that it was not until 18 August that anybody had heard of them."   Not that they were unknown (as some have misinterpreted) - that would be ridiculous - but they were unheard of, this is of course true as regards public knowledge of the case as it progressed during the summer of 2007.  The Portuguese secrecy law was waived in some respects, not perhaps by the Portuguese but by a UK representative who claimed to have spent nigh on twenty four hours a day with the McCann couple - you guessed it, Clarence Mitchell!  So, Pamela Fenn and her niece were indeed unheard of in the public domain until the media blitz of August 2007.

By coincidence Pamela Fenn was burgled just prior to MBM's disappearance, no forced entry just an intruder hurling himself from her bedroom window - no other details available.  Her niece, just happened to be hanging out with her husband on Fenn's balcony (discussing political issues) on Thursday 3rd May 2007, when a suspicious man was exiting the gate and stone stairway leading to the apartment occupied by the McCann family - think i've got that right.  This I believe is the man seen by Tranmer (without known corroboration) as drawn up by the mysterious Reading personage who visited Tranmer's work place ..




Press reports suggest that Tranmerman strongly resembled Tannerman even though Tramnerman apparently had a shock of very blond hair - so far not so good?  So moving on to Readingman, no resemblance to Tannerman nor to Tranmerman but Tranmer emphatically denies having helped with the image because the man she saw didn't wear glasses as portrayed by Readingman.  Like the other eye witnesses, over a period of time her memory recall improves significantly even though only seeing the suspects briefly - a few seconds!

I can understand people thinking that Pamela Fenn was an innocent elderly woman, just caught up in the McCann scam but looking at all the available evidence, is her story and that of her niece built on concrete or shifting sands?  The emphasis on Sunday 29th and Thursday 3rd May (once the lapse of memory was ironed out), Fenn being a member of the local residents association, a Brit no doubt known locally as was Robert Murat, living above the apartment occupied by the McCann family - is it really likely that the PJ didn't knock on her door during the first hours asking questions?  I doubt it!  Was she even there on Thursday 3rd May?  Is it strange that she first came to public attention in August 2007 after the UK government Media Monitoring guru spent so many hours in the company of the McCann family, their friends, Leicester police, the diplomatic corps etc.,  even though her niece apparently gave a statement to Leicester police early May 2007, who are not subjected to Portuguese secrecy law ?

Food for thought..

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

Verdi

Posts : 4152
Reputation : 2543
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.09.15 10:26

@Verdi wrote:[PART SNIPPED]

By coincidence Pamela Fenn was burgled just prior to MBM's disappearance, no forced entry just an intruder hurling himself from her bedroom window - no other details available.  Her niece, just happened to be hanging out with her husband on Fenn's balcony (discussing political issues) on Thursday 3rd May 2007, when a suspicious man was exiting the gate and stone stairway leading to the apartment occupied by the McCann family - think i've got that right.  This I believe is the man seen by Tranmer (without known corroboration) as drawn up by the mysterious Reading personage who visited Tranmer's work place...




[REST SNIPPED]
MORE ON CAROLE TRANMER AND PAMELA FENN - ARE THEY WITNESSES OF TRUTH?

Following on from Verdi's post, I want to raise some further issues about whether we can rely on either Carole Tranmer of Pamela Fenn as witnesses of truth.

And of course, if there is clear proof, or at least a strong suspicion, that either have lied about part of their stories, then doubt is cast on the entirety of their stories.

I want to look at what Carole Tranmer...


Carole Tranmer - from her Facebook page, today, 25 September 2015



and Pamela Fenn have to say about Carole Tranmer's stay in Portugal, referred to also by sallypelt above.

According to Carole Tanmer's Rogatory Statement [18 April 2008]:

1. She and her husband stayed in Quarteira 'in  the eastern Algarve'

2. Praia da Luz is very much in the western Algarve - the distance from Quarteira is at least 50 miles and well over one hour's drive

3. The stated purpose of her visit was to 'look for property' in Portugal, presumably with a view to moving to Portugal [Rogatory Statement: "But our trip was in reality to look for a home, as we would like to live there one day".

4. Yet she spends two whole days, so she says, visiting her aunt in Praia da Luz, on the Sunday and - it might be said conveniently - on Thursday 3 May.

5. As her Facebook page (see above) makes plain, she is still very much in England, 8 years later

6. She refers to her husband in her statement, who was 'contracted to work for the European Union' and 'had so much information about goings-on in the E.U. that he was going write a book about it. The statement about her husband seems vague. I can't find any reference anywhere to her husband. Do we actually know who he is and what he does/did for a living at that time?

7. According to Carole Tranmer, she did the 100-mile-plus round trip from Quarteira to Praia da Luz that week 'to visit her aunt'. Yet according to the first report about Mrs Fenn and Carole Tranmer in the Sun:

QUOTE>>>  Expat Pamela Fenn told them she disturbed a burglar at her apartment about three weeks before Maddie vanished. She is now to give a formal statement to Portuguese officers. A friend said: "She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her before”. Pamela also said her niece, who stayed with her the week Maddie disappeared, spotted somebody fitting the description of a man seen carrying a child away under a blanket. The pal added: "He was acting suspiciously."  >>>UNQUOTE

8. Both can't be right. Either Carole Tranmer stayed with her that week. Or she didn't.  

9. In her statement to the PJ - in the police files - Mrs Fenn states:

QUOTE >>>   When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.   >>>UNQUOTE

10. The Sun report (18 August 2007), two days before she made her statement, told us this:

"Expat Pamela Fenn told them she disturbed a burglar at her apartment about three weeks before Maddie vanished. She is now to give a formal statement to Portuguese officers. A friend said: "She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her before”. Pamela also said her niece, who stayed with her the week Maddie disappeared, spotted somebody fitting the description of a man seen carrying a child away under a blanket. The pal added: "He was acting suspiciously."

11. So, in her formal witness statement - made well over 3 months after Madeleine was reported missing - she says the burglary happened 'the week before'. In the Sun we are told it was 'three weeks before'. Other reports of this burglary refer to 'two weeks' and 'several weeks' before. The dates for when this burglary is supposed to have taken place are, frankly, all over the place.

12. But perhaps most significantly of all, reports of this burglary state that Carole Tranmer was present during this burglary and witnessed it. But, contrary to that:

A. Carole Tranmer never refers to that during her Rogatory Interview or anywhere else
B. When D C Messiah of Leics Police gives her an opportunity to talk about it during the Rogatory, she doesn't follow what he's referring to - so her moves on - and
C. On her own evidence, Carol Tranmer says nothing about having been in Portugal before 28 April 2007 that year;

QUOTE from Rogatory: "I went to visit her for a week in February in 2004. It was my first time in that place but we had already been in Luz before that when we went to Portugal as tourists. After that, we went a second time with my husband and stayed in (inaudible) a small fishing village about 10 minutes from Luz. We have already been in Portugal many times, but to visit Luz only three times". 

Indeed she affirms that she (and her husband) booked their holiday in Portugal for the exact same week as the McCanns and the Tapas 7 - and were not there prior to that.

Something is very wrong with the evidence of both Mrs Fenn and Carole Tranmer.

Indeed reading through what they both say makes me wonder if Carole Tranmer was even there that week.  

+++++

Finally, @ Verdi, a possible correction   

In your post, you referred to the sketch above as being the one drawn up by Carole Tranmer.

However, if I've read her Rogatory Statement correctly, it seems that this man with the sunglasses was NOT Carole Tranmer's sketch, but that of Tasmin Sillence. Would you agree?

I would further ask your opinion on this. Is it possible that the mysterious man from Reading with his laptop and his clearly mixed-up pictures of various suspects and 'persons of interest etc. could be a member of the McCann Team and not a police officer at all?     

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


Tony Bennett
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 14235
Reputation : 2449
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Harlow, Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by kaz on 25.09.15 14:26

Pamela also said her niece, who stayed with her the week Maddie disappeared, spotted somebody fitting the description of a man seen carrying a child away under a blanket. The pal added: "He was acting suspiciously

But Tannerman wasn't carrying a child away under a blanket was he? That 'blanket' causing trouble again.

kaz

Posts : 369
Reputation : 322
Join date : 2014-08-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by skyrocket on 25.09.15 15:34

Confusion - the hunt for Tranmerman!

The Express 22 May 2011:


Earlier this month the Sunday Express (8 May) published a photofit of a man seen acting suspiciously near the McCanns’ apartment alongside a photograph of a 40-year-old German youth worker, being held on suspicion of murdering several children across Europe.

Mr Amaral said the first time he was aware of the photofit was when he saw it in the Sunday Express.

Last night he said: “I knew about the statement from the British woman but the photofit was not sent through. I believe it is important that this line of inquiry is investigated.”

The woman who drew up the image was a relative of Pamela Fenn, an elderly woman who lived above the McCanns’ apartment. She died recently. Her relative said that on the afternoon of the kidnap, she was on the balcony of Mrs Fenn’s apartment when she looked down and saw a man pushing a gate to a neighbouring apartment to and fro possibly to find out how much noise it made.

When she realised Madeleine was taken the same evening she gave a statement to British police and helped them compile the  photofit. However, the first time the public was aware of her potentially crucial evidence was its mention in Kate’s book.

Speaking to the Sunday Express Mr Amaral said: “I don’t think it would be useful to criticise the British detectives but I would be interested to hear why certain material was not sent to Portugal while I was on the case.”

The Sunday Express article (8 May 2011) referenced above, with the Carol Tranmer photofit?, can be found at the following Pamalam page (with the photofit at the bottom of the page):


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/49may11/EXPRESS1_08_05_2011.htm

However, although the Express article (22 May 2011) clearly links the photofit to Carol Tranmer, the actual article in the Sunday Express (8 May 2011) seems to link the photofit to the Smith sighting!

From Carol Tranmer's Rogatory 22 April 2008:

CT 'Humm... he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped....... I would say he was European but not Portuguese. He was not dark and, he was not short, but I would say that he looked Scandinavian if you will, because he was very light and could have been British or Scandinavian. 

It's very apparent that the photofit and the 'German man' (both dark haired) are very different from Carol Tranmer's 'blonde footballer' type. 

The photofit halfway down the page, left of Tasmin Sillence's 'glasses man' in the following report, seems to fit the bill but nothing to say definitely in the article other than a reference to a Scandinavian man, as in CT's statement:


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-15/uk-police-launch-appaeal-for-man-connected-to-madeleine-mccann-/5022270

Confusion seems to rule again - it wouldn't surprise me at all if TM had a hand in the production of the Tranmer photofit.

Apologies for all the links but I'm unable to upload any images using a Mac.

skyrocket

Posts : 489
Reputation : 452
Join date : 2015-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.09.15 15:43

@kaz wrote:Pamela also said her niece, who stayed with her the week Maddie disappeared, spotted somebody fitting the description of a man seen carrying a child away under a blanket. The pal added: "He was acting suspiciously

But Tannerman wasn't carrying a child away under a blanket was he? That 'blanket' causing trouble again.
A good point.

But an even more telling point is that the hair of Carole-Tranmerman was blond, while that of Jane-Tannerman was 'black or very dark'!

Uh oh. It looks like the 'family pal' a.k.a. the 'pink spinner'...

The McCanns' family pal, or 'The Pink Spinner'


...was up to his old tricks again

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


Tony Bennett
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 14235
Reputation : 2449
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Harlow, Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Verdi on 25.09.15 15:58

@Tony Bennett wrote:  Finally, @ Verdi, a possible correction.
 
In your post, you referred to the sketch above as being the one drawn up by Carole Tranmer.



However, if I've read her Rogatory Statement correctly, it seems that this man with the sunglasses was NOT Carole Tranmer's sketch, but that of Tasmin Sillence. Would you agree?

I would further ask your opinion on this. Is it possible that the mysterious man from Reading with his laptop and his clearly mixed-up pictures of various suspects and 'persons of interest etc. could be a member of the McCann Team and not a police officer at all?

Again I didn't make myself pefectly clear, the sketch was I believe presented to Carole Tranmer (eventually I will get her name right) by DC Mesiah during the rogatory interview, as the sketch drawn up my the mysterious Reading man with the help of Tranmer.  When questioned by DC Messiah Carole Tranmer didn't seem entirely sure whether it was her sketch or not, the interview (apologies in advance for the length of this but when trying to crop it all seemed relevant)..

DC1485'This was the photo-sketch that you reproduced'


CT'No, he did not use spectacles, but he did have this type of hair


DC1485'Yes, I was intrigued that the reason for his sunglasses

CT'He did not have sunglasses, he did not use spectacles and his mouth was not like this, and his nose was not like this, it is not the same person



DC1485'Then you are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made'


CT'No


DC1485'No
CT'Because he has glasses, he did not use glasses


Dc1485'No, but the hair is the same
'
CT'The hair is right. More or less


DC1485'I know that the image is not very good


CT'And it appears that he has something on his chin that he did not have, humm, but the format is similar, he certainly did not use glasses, and his mouth was different

DC1485'Okay, but the top of his..


CT'The top, his head is..



DC1485'The same


CT'Yes

DC1485'The format of the face is the same, the format of the mouth is the same



CT'Well, he had a long face


DC1485'Yes.


CT'Yes, this, this you know.


DC1485'But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch.

CT'No, certainly it is not.



DC1485'No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin


CT'Is this what they sent'


DC1485'Yes.


CT'This I made'


DC1485'Well, do you remember the name of the person who made the photo with you'


CT'No, a young person, humm..


DCc1485'Male'


CT'Yes, male, a young man, hummm.


DC1485'Tasmin, does that have any significance for you'


CT'No.


DC1485'No.


CT'From Reading.


DC1485'Yes, from Reading.


CT'I signed something, he had a CD and did everything on computer.


DC1485'Okay, sure.


CT'But this, this is not like the one he did.


DC1485'Well, there must be some confusion....

Later during the rogatory interview, a photograph taken from the terrace of Pamela Fenn's apartment (I think) said to have been taken on the Sunday morning, comes into play which, as I'm reading, throws a spanner inthe works..

DC1485'At what time of the day do you think this photograph was taken'


CT'Well, it was... it must have happened in the morning because it was taken on Sunday


DC1485'It was taken on Sunday'


CT'Yes, because the sun was out, humm'around mid-day, I would say it was around noon.


DC1485'This is good.


CT'This is all I remember.


DC1485'I will make copies of these photographs, later, after completing your statement.


CT'Okay.


DC1485'And I have this as your proof and evidence.


CT'You can have these because, humm... they are on CD, and if they can help'


DC1485'Right, okay


CT'You can have them.


DC1485'I will see what I (inaudible) can do with them.


CT'yes, okay.


DC1485'Okay, I will get up for two minutes and ask my colleague if any fact has escaped me.


CT'Okay.


DC1485'Right.


CT'Yes, I will have some water.


DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.


DC MESSIAH returns to the interview room.


DC1485'Hello, I have returned. I apologise for the length of my absence (inaudible), my colleague was trying to get a better quality photograph copy, the one I showed him was very, very light, wasn't it'

CT'Yes.

DC1485'Does this bring back memories'

CT'Good, the one I saw was on computer...

DC1485'Yes.

CT'And... hum, with the glasses... he did not wear sunglasses.

DC1485'No, but if you could imagine him without sunglasses, is it very difficult'

CT'Yes, hum... I know that I have had some difficulty with the ears as well, but... humm, I think so.

DC1485'This was made by another witness, who affirms having seen a man who corresponds to his description but...

CT'The one thing is that I saw him from an angle.

DC1485'From below.

CT'From below, his mouth was more 'hum' very delineated, it was not'in this one it appeared more'

DC1485'Yes.

CT'But, hum... the head looks good.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'Humm, but the glasses and I do not know about the nose, it was more'mmm'but we all come from different places.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'He did not have this in his chin.

DC1485'No.

CT'And he had a long face.

DC1485'Longer than this one'

CT'Yes, although I saw him from above, I have (inaudible) because I very much like this photograph.

DC1485'Oh right.

CT'For this reason, I am very good at this. But not in measurements (inaudible)'facial recognition, hummm.

DC1485'Okay, but this one.

CT'Yes, the head, the cut of the hair, the hair line was very similar, mmm... but the individual made him on CD, humm.

DC1485'What did he do'

CT'He, well, he assigned a document to confirm that I was correct but it was all on computer and'humm'he took it back to Reading.

DC1485'He was from Reading'

CT'He worked for the Reading Police, so I assumed he was legitimate.

DC1485'Did he leave a card or another contact'

CT'Humm...

DC1485'Is the name recognisable'

CT'No, but it was all noted by the Police in Reading.

DC1485'Where did they go'

CT'They, they went to my office.

DC1485'They went to your office'

CT'Yes.

DC1485'How many of them were there'

CT'Only one, with a laptop.

DC1485'I am not suggesting that he, he'

CT'I was going to say that, I hope he was legitimate, this was a long time ago.

DC1485'Yes, I am not suggesting this, simply, I want you to help me find him.

CT'I, I do not remember his name, humm.

DC1485'You told me that he was young'

CT'Yes, a young person.

DC1485'He was in his youth'

CT'Well, a computer genious, but not one of those weird looking ones, you know'hum, very much younger'humm, he was around 25 or something.

Dc1485'Okay.

CT'Dark hair, hum'short, yes, I remember that he was very short, humm'and was only'

DC1485'You have a fantastic memory, did you know that'

CT' (laughs) Perhaps this has something to do with my past, because I was working, hummm'my other organisation was, hummm'called Reading because it was all organized by them.

DC1485'Good, I will ask you to contact us first, unless you have a preference'

CT'I can check in my agenda when I get home.

DC1485'And call me after or'

DC1485'I keep all my appointments and if there is anything, because when I was working, I was better organised compared to when I do nothing.

DC1485'Okay.

CT'Perhaps there is something about his name.

DC1485'Because he must have said his name and the visit and you may have made a note in your agenda.

CT'I would have noted it as I had to also book the room.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'I remember this, yes.

In the absence of any confirmation about the visit from the Reading man, it has occured to me that he may have been an imposter and yes, I do agree that the image I posted is not the sketch drawn up with the help of Carole Tramner.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

Verdi

Posts : 4152
Reputation : 2543
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.09.15 16:24

@skyrocket wrote:* @ skyrocket - what you have found and now posted for us is a very useful addition to this discussion - thank you very much.

Confusion - the hunt for Tranmerman!

The Express 22 May 2011:

Earlier this month the Sunday Express (8 May) published a photofit of a man seen acting suspiciously near the McCanns’ apartment alongside a photograph of a 40-year-old German youth worker, being held on suspicion of murdering several children across Europe.

Mr Amaral said the first time he was aware of the photofit was when he saw it in the Sunday Express.

REPLY: So THIS photograph, i.e. the man WITHOUT the sunglasses, seems to be the one drawn up by Carole Tranmer (see Verdi's post just above). The one actually presented to Carole Tranmer by D.C. Messiah, i.e. of the man WITH the sunglasses, was I think the man sketched by Tasmin Sillence 

++++++


Last night he said: “I knew about the statement from the British woman but the photofit was not sent through. I believe it is important that this line of inquiry is investigated.”

REPLY: Goncalo Amaral says he 'knew about the statement'. It's not entirely clear from that wording, but it looks like he got neither the photofit nor the statement from Leics Police. In which case we now have at least FOUR documents apparently not sent on by Leicestershire Police to Goncalo Amaral:
1. Statement by Carole Tranmer, 8 May 2007  
2. Sketch approved by Carole Tranmer, probably a few days later
3. Statement of Dr Katharina Gaspar, 19 May 2007, and
4. Statement of Dr Arul Gaspar, 19 May 2007.

WHY NOT?    

++++++

The woman who drew up the image was a relative of Pamela Fenn, an elderly woman who lived above the McCanns’ apartment. She died recently. Her relative said that on the afternoon of the kidnap, she was on the balcony of Mrs Fenn’s apartment when she looked down and saw a man pushing a gate to a neighbouring apartment to and fro possibly to find out how much noise it made.

When she realised Madeleine was taken the same evening she gave a statement to British police and helped them compile the  photofit. However, the first time the public was aware of her potentially crucial evidence was its mention in Kate’s book.

REPLY: Held back until it was useful?

++++++


Speaking to the Sunday Express Mr Amaral said: “I don’t think it would be useful to criticise the British detectives but I would be interested to hear why certain material was not sent to Portugal while I was on the case.”

REPLY: @ Goncalo Amaral  - Sorry, the British police involved in this case are too corrupt top tell you the truth about that one

++++++ 


The Sunday Express article (8 May 2011) referenced above, with the Carol Tranmer photofit?, can be found at the following Pamalam page (with the photofit at the bottom of the page):

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/49may11/EXPRESS1_08_05_2011.htm

However, although the Express article (22 May 2011) clearly links the photofit to Carol Tranmer, the actual article in the Sunday Express (8 May 2011) seems to link the photofit to the Smith sighting!

REPLY: I am not sure I can agree with you on that. The exact wording in the 8 May 2011 Express article is this:

He bears a striking resemblance to the photofit of a man seen holding a child in his arms just minutes after Madeleine was snatched from Praia da Luz.

I personally think that that description was so ambiguous that it could refer to EITHER Tanner OR Smithman. Which is probably exactly what was intended , because that's precisely what Dr Kate McCann did on 7 pages of her book, 'madeleine' - viz., suggest that Tannerman and Smithman were one and the same


____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


Tony Bennett
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 14235
Reputation : 2449
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Harlow, Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by Verdi on 25.09.15 22:32

I still can't be convinced about this Tranmer witness statement of early May 2007 and her suspicious gate-crasher.

Before embarking on the Pamela Fenn/Carole Tranmer debacle, I checked 'Truth of the Lie' by Goncalo Amaral to see if he mentioned anything relating to the part they played in this intriguing saga - no mention whatsoever, unless someone can prove me wrong.  Surprising to me considering the potential impact Pamela Fenn's witness statement would have on the investigation along with the alleged statement of Carole Tranmer taken by Leicester police early May 2007, with the alleged identikit drawn up between Tranmer and the mystery man from Reading.

The Truth of the Lie details the Tanner sighting, the Smith sighting and the suspicious white van man allegedly seen staring into an apartment 5a window, amongst other associated matters but nothing connected to the British woman who lived above apartment 5a, or her niece who claims to have seen a suspicious man furtively fiddling with a gate below apartment 5a.  From the McCanns point of view, this revelation would have been of considerable advantage towards reinforcing their abduction scenario.

Important extracts from the Truth of the Lie by Goncalo Amaral.. http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/

The first  English police officer whom we welcome to the Portimão Department of Criminal Investigation, on May 5th, is Glen Power, liaison officer to Portugal. 

Two days later [Monday 7th May], English colleagues begin to arrive.

The National Directorate of the PJ had authorised the arrival of these police officers in the context of international collaboration. Bob Small, an officer from the Leicestershire police, and one of his colleagues meet us to take stock of the situation and evaluate the needs of the investigation..

Little by little, the number of English police officers grows exponentially.

During this time, the Leicestershire police continue to receive a considerable number of enquiries that they have trouble sorting and analysing.
------
 

Bearing in mind Carole Tranmer first became aware of the possible connection between MBM's disappearance and the suspicious man she claims to have seen on Thursday 3rd, while reading the Sunday Times on 6th May 2007, her rogatory interview implies that she swiftly phoned Leicester police (number given by Windsor police) on the advice of her cousin's son who is at Sandhurst, doesn't it seem odd that Bob Small and his merry men from Leicester police weren't aware of the evidence when they arrived in PdL?  All the work that followed their arrival but still no mention of Carole Tranmer or Pamela Fenn - doesn't sound very likely to me.

The Sunday Express article posted up thread, dated May 2011, claims to have spoken to Goncalo Amaral.  Firstly, as far as I'm aware Dr. Amaral doesn't speak English so the chances of an Express reporter speaking to him direct is highly unlikely and secondly, considering how the UK press has vilified Dr. Amaral over the years, I really can't think he would willingly agree to an interview with them under any circumstances.

More importantly to put this issue into perspective, let's look at a few of the major events leading up to the media blitz about the Fenn/Tranmer liaison..

1.  End of July 2007 Martin Grimes arrives in PdL with Eddie and Keela.

2.  News hits the headlines about cadavar and blood scents detected by the dogs.

3.  Official investigation changes direction.

4.  Beginning of August 2007 the PJ are informed officials at Buckingham Palace have received an email informing them that a little girl named Madeleine has disappeared from a hotel complex situated in Lisbon.
[Remember Carole Tramner's past connection with Windsor Castle and the royal family]

5.   On the same date Dr Amaral claims an English tourist, Kate, on holiday in PdL allegedly saw a stranger hanging about near the Baptista supermarket in the vicinity of the Ocean Club.

6.   Third week in August 2007 media storm about Pamela Fenn kicks off.

At this time the governments Media Monitoring Unit guru was back at Blighty working his magic as the official spokesman for Gerry and Kate McCann.  Funny that innit?

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

Verdi

Posts : 4152
Reputation : 2543
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Carole Tranmer

Post by sallypelt on 26.09.15 12:10

Carole Tranmer states she's Mrs Fenn's niece. Is she a child of one of Mrs Fenn's siblings, or one of her husband's siblings. Any ideas?

sallypelt

Posts : 3362
Reputation : 597
Join date : 2012-11-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 4 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum