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Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by sofa on 29.10.13 12:18

Good afternoon every one, Ms Candy on Joana Morais blogs there are info re: PJ looking for Madeleine's remains, don't know if thread has been open for this thanks!

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by galena on 29.10.13 12:21

@loopzdaloop wrote:
@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:I've never understood Eddies indication behind the couch

I think she cracked her head open on the floor there, attempting to look out the window and it is where she breathed her last.
I think it was the night that Mrs Fenn heard extended crying.
Even in the crimewatch episode they admitted leaving their children behind most of the night. They only changed their mind after Maddie (allegedly said) "Mummy why didn't you come for us when we were crying", the morning after the night Mrs Fenn heard the crying. Considering that the Mccann's very rarely say anything that makes themselves look bad, and use all the dark arts to surpress information, I find it weird that they should do so in this instance and then repeat it again on crimewatch.
I'm convicted that this anecdote serves an alternate purpose, which is to 'prove' that Maddie was alive the morning after. Which I don't think she was.
I think they found her and she was more than 2 hours dead and another Tapas tried to do CPR (as they could have initially thought she could have been comatose due to the sedation drugs. The CPR is what caused the specks by the door.

But why say something that puts them in a bad light?  Why bring up the crying at all?  Was it something to do with a theory Kate had that the abductor had been there the previous night and that's why the children were crying? I have a vague memory of something like that ...

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by galena on 29.10.13 12:23

@Sockpuppet wrote:
@loopzdaloop wrote:
@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:I've never understood Eddies indication behind the couch

I think she cracked her head open on the floor there, attempting to look out the window and it is where she breathed her last.
I think it was the night that Mrs Fenn heard extended crying.
Even in the crimewatch episode they admitted leaving their children behind most of the night. They only changed their mind after Maddie (allegedly said) "Mummy why didn't you come for us when we were crying", the morning after the night Mrs Fenn heard the crying. Considering that the Mccann's very rarely say anything that makes themselves look bad, and use all the dark arts to surpress information, I find it weird that they should do so in this instance and then repeat it again on crimewatch.
I'm convicted that this anecdote serves an alternate purpose, which is to 'prove' that Maddie was alive the morning after. Which I don't think she was.
I think they found her and she was more than 2 hours dead and another Tapas tried to do CPR (as they could have initially thought she could have been comatose due to the sedation drugs. The CPR is what caused the specks by the door.

My problem with a death prior to May 3rd is Kate's scream as heard by J.R.Salcedas on the night of the disappearance.  Kate must have discovered something awful at this point.

Others have suggested that perhaps Kate discovered that Maddy's body had been removed at this time.  Well, in that case, the body must have been in the apartment for 2 days, if your assumption is that she died on May 1st.

It doesn't matter how much cleaning you do or how much air freshener you use, the smell of a dead body does not go away very easily, as demonstrated by the hire car boot being seen open night and day for weeks.  The GNR would have immediately sensed this smell on arrival.

If Maddy died previous to 3rd May, she must have been removed pretty sharpish.

So what did Kate scream about?
How do we know it was really Kate screaming?  I hear horrendous screams most weekends - not someone making a terrible discovery just young folk out partying ...

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Sockpuppet on 29.10.13 12:27

@galena wrote:
@Sockpuppet wrote:
@loopzdaloop wrote:
@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:I've never understood Eddies indication behind the couch

I think she cracked her head open on the floor there, attempting to look out the window and it is where she breathed her last.
I think it was the night that Mrs Fenn heard extended crying.
Even in the crimewatch episode they admitted leaving their children behind most of the night. They only changed their mind after Maddie (allegedly said) "Mummy why didn't you come for us when we were crying", the morning after the night Mrs Fenn heard the crying. Considering that the Mccann's very rarely say anything that makes themselves look bad, and use all the dark arts to surpress information, I find it weird that they should do so in this instance and then repeat it again on crimewatch.
I'm convicted that this anecdote serves an alternate purpose, which is to 'prove' that Maddie was alive the morning after. Which I don't think she was.
I think they found her and she was more than 2 hours dead and another Tapas tried to do CPR (as they could have initially thought she could have been comatose due to the sedation drugs. The CPR is what caused the specks by the door.

My problem with a death prior to May 3rd is Kate's scream as heard by J.R.Salcedas on the night of the disappearance.  Kate must have discovered something awful at this point.

Others have suggested that perhaps Kate discovered that Maddy's body had been removed at this time.  Well, in that case, the body must have been in the apartment for 2 days, if your assumption is that she died on May 1st.

It doesn't matter how much cleaning you do or how much air freshener you use, the smell of a dead body does not go away very easily, as demonstrated by the hire car boot being seen open night and day for weeks.  The GNR would have immediately sensed this smell on arrival.

If Maddy died previous to 3rd May, she must have been removed pretty sharpish.

So what did Kate scream about?
How do we know it was really Kate screaming?  I hear horrendous screams most weekends - not someone making a terrible discovery just young folk out partying ...
'I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother.'


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm


Salcedas didn't seem to think it was somebody partying.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by galena on 29.10.13 13:10

@Sockpuppet wrote:
@galena wrote:
@Sockpuppet wrote:
@loopzdaloop wrote:
@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:I've never understood Eddies indication behind the couch

I think she cracked her head open on the floor there, attempting to look out the window and it is where she breathed her last.
I think it was the night that Mrs Fenn heard extended crying.
Even in the crimewatch episode they admitted leaving their children behind most of the night. They only changed their mind after Maddie (allegedly said) "Mummy why didn't you come for us when we were crying", the morning after the night Mrs Fenn heard the crying. Considering that the Mccann's very rarely say anything that makes themselves look bad, and use all the dark arts to surpress information, I find it weird that they should do so in this instance and then repeat it again on crimewatch.
I'm convicted that this anecdote serves an alternate purpose, which is to 'prove' that Maddie was alive the morning after. Which I don't think she was.
I think they found her and she was more than 2 hours dead and another Tapas tried to do CPR (as they could have initially thought she could have been comatose due to the sedation drugs. The CPR is what caused the specks by the door.

My problem with a death prior to May 3rd is Kate's scream as heard by J.R.Salcedas on the night of the disappearance.  Kate must have discovered something awful at this point.

Others have suggested that perhaps Kate discovered that Maddy's body had been removed at this time.  Well, in that case, the body must have been in the apartment for 2 days, if your assumption is that she died on May 1st.

It doesn't matter how much cleaning you do or how much air freshener you use, the smell of a dead body does not go away very easily, as demonstrated by the hire car boot being seen open night and day for weeks.  The GNR would have immediately sensed this smell on arrival.

If Maddy died previous to 3rd May, she must have been removed pretty sharpish.

So what did Kate scream about?
How do we know it was really Kate screaming?  I hear horrendous screams most weekends - not someone making a terrible discovery just young folk out partying ...
'I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother.'


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm


Salcedas didn't seem to think it was somebody partying.
I agree it could be significant, but I think there is danger in reading too much into it as well.  Having been told that a little girl is missing, and then hearing a scream of course he is going to be predisposed into thinking it was the child's mother.  But there is no actual proof it was Kate screaming ...

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hicks on 29.10.13 14:02

@Woofer wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:Regarding the Smithman sighting at 21.55, coincidentally this is the exact time when R O'B returned to the Tapas table according to the sticker book timeline, thus giving the T9 a joint alibi, ie they were all together round the table and can vouch for one another

However, independent witnesses say the table was empty by 21.40, which would give none of them an alibi
I was thinking earlier, we have only really focused on the timeline BEFORE Madeleine went missing. What about the time just after, where was GM then?
What about the two men seen arguing at 11.00pm that night, as described on CW?

The Smithman may just have nipped back AFTER the initial commotion to where he was originally seen going, but with help this time.

GM deleted a call to his wife @23.17 (not long after the two men were seen arguing) in fact, he deleted four further calls to her that night.
We know he was on his balcony at 10.30 because Pamela Fenn spoke to him.  He told her a little girl had been abducted.  She asked if she could help by using her phone to call the police and he said they had already been called.
GM rang KM @23.17 ( deleted the call) so he wasn't with or near Kate if he had to call her on the phone, so where was he?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hicks on 29.10.13 14:08

@jozi wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:Let's get back on topic now...

If it was someone hiding a body it was a very good hiding place.
I'm still hung up on some background info that could make the Smith sighting more of a 'contrived sighting' than 'actual removal' of body.
Kate made phone calls, earlier on in the week, and early morning, to friend Amanda, whose husband would be some sort of authority or guide in how to clean forensic evidence away.
The blood spats found, had been cleaned and damaged by bleach.
Visits to the supermarket were written into Kate's diary.
A key lost, or break in to the chemical / cleaning cupboard were 'reported?' by one of the cleaners.
There was no forensic evidence of Maddie being in 5A, hence a very thorough 'cleaning' operation which would have needed time to perform and then verify.
Blood between tiles had been attempted to be cleaned.
This needs time, more than was available during the evening of 3rd.
There does appear to be panic, on 3rd, but I also remember the very original and now whooshed info about Jez seeing Gerry by the shutters, fiddling, when Jez first set out with son in buggy at around 8 to 8.30 on 3rd.
Since the story of broken shutters was already being fired off by Philomena, regardless of the real fact that the shutters had not been damaged, makes me think that the 'abduction' scene went awry when Gerry was caught trying to set the scene by damaging the shutters (the pre-run having been the bedroom shutters earlier on in the week, repaired by the shutter men).
The 'tannerman' development, could have been a compensation to try to cover for Jez seeing Gerry, who chatted.
Jane was seen by Jez outside 5A as he left his apartment. Perhaps Jane was on 'look out' for Gerry and hissed a warning to 'stop' the shutter setting up, as Jez was appearing.
When it was realised that Jane's sighting could not correlate with the actual road in view (as questioned by a Portuguese police-lady) then maybe the Smith sighting was thrown in.
On being seen by so many however, the stress would have been placed back on the 'tannerman' sighting.
What I do not understand is why
1. The McCs so strenuously sought to avoid the Smith sighting
2. Why Gerry stated that he had not seen Jane, whilst he was talking with Jez, since this was a 'given alibi' that he was now throwing away.
I am still also concerned that Jez thought his meeting with Gerry was earlier than Gerry tried to insist it was.
I think the 3rd did go into a messy panic, but more due to 'cock-up' at being discovered 'up to no good' and that Maddie had been well disposed of before 3rd.
The cleaning was too contrived and efficient. The shutters were 'not damaged' yet Philomena stated as if they had been. She clearly had not been told to 'shut it' in time, and that initial 'blurting' put the whole saga under the sort of microscope that the McCs would have least ever wanted.
Just IMO of course.





Yes bobbin, it was too clean, Mr Amaral commented on it also .The final stages for the abduction could only be put in place on the 3rd May night and I believe they did panic....even Murat said it was the biggest cock-up of the century, or words to that effect !!!
The tapas table was empty by 21.40, possibly earlier( from OC workers statements) where were they and what were they doing? Cleaning? it would not take long...many hands and all that.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by galena on 29.10.13 14:48

@oakeso wrote:I don't believe JT saw Tannerman so found it annoying when SY subsequently identified him coming from the creche without his complimentary blanket walking in the opposite direction or mayb he was walking backwards. But now I think I see the funny side. 

I've always believed Smithman was real and that it was GM on a decoy mission after someone fluffed their lines/got cold feet. It fits so well, he'd be uncomfortable carrying a child that wasn't his own, Smith identified him and the efits are remarkably close. 

But I can't figure out what would take GM down Rua 25 de Abril - it seems to be well off his route. And too many things point to something happening before 3rd - if this was the plan I don't understand why he didn't wear a hoodie/baseball cap. It doesn't add up, too much risk. If nothing else a danger of being picked up on CCTV. 

Grand central for men taking a nightly stroll with sleeping daughters perhaps, I believe the Smiths were telling the truth.
I find it really hard to believe that GM would take the risk of strolling through PDL at that time of night, wearing his normal clothes, and carrying his dead daughter dressed only in pyjamas.  The chances of him being spotted were extremely high, and there was a good chance that once the story broke and his face became familiar to the public that someone would identify him.  Or supposing he met someone he knew who wanted to talk - might they not notice the child wasn't breathing? 

My feeling is that they would not have let anyone know she was missing until the body had been safely disposed of in a reasonably safe hiding place. And that no-one would carry a body about like in plain sight when it would be easier to safely stow it away in a bag or case. 

If it indeed was Gerry/another Tapas person/or some accomplice they got in to help then it was a pretty botched job and the whole thing must have been much more a last minute panic than I thought at first.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Truthandjustice on 29.10.13 15:03

Regarding the crying incident; both Kate and Gerry repeated that snippet almost word for word in their statements to the police next morning so it was obviously something they wanted to get across, and with that pair you have to question the reason why.  This was not something that emerged in interrogation but something they both offered freely, but strangely identically.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by listener on 29.10.13 15:30

@Hicks wrote:
GM rang KM @23.17 ( deleted the call) so he wasn't with or near Kate if he had to call her on the phone, so where was he?
Ah yes - deleting phone records - So normal in a lost daughter scenario, especially when you are so distraught you can hardly think (let alone search)! You can however write out timelines (which may, or may not, fit your story) to assist the police in their search (before they even arrive)! The police arrive and find you are not out searching, but find all gathered in 5A agreeing on timelines - So normal.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by boo boos on 29.10.13 15:46

If they forensically cleaned the apartment that evening, it would STILL have smelt of bleach when the police arrived. Apart from the bedroom window in the children's room being open ???!!!, none of the others were said to be. And it was the children's bedroom that the dogs DIDN'T signal in. I believe Amaral was convinced in the Smith sighting and there is more to it than we know at this time. I think it corroborates other evidence, maybe someone else saw something from a different angle? He knows what he thinks happened, just not enough proof to convict. Its circumstantial evidence, and maybe this latest news will further their prosecution case

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by PeterMac on 29.10.13 15:53

Smithman is deadly to their sedation story.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by notlongnow on 29.10.13 16:27

@PeterMac wrote:Smithman is deadly to their sedation story.
Can you explain please peter.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Praiaaa on 29.10.13 16:34

Peter - are you able to elaborate on that?
I have wondered if it may have been GM that night, but not carrying MM, but carrying a sedated Sean. The intention being that a person could have been seen heading to the beach carrying a body, but there was no risk - in the event that GM was eg stopped by the police, he could demonstrate he was carrying his live, sleeping son to help him get to sleep. (Maddie having been disposed of before that). And that sighting became too dangerous because Smith identified GM from the plane footage, which was not supposed to happen, just supposed to be a dark haired man carrying a child towards the sea at a time GM had an alibi.
Alternatively maybe it was MM being carried and the intention initially for her body to be found, but then for some reason the plan changed?
All IMO of course.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by galena on 29.10.13 16:52

@Praiaaa wrote:Peter - are you able to elaborate on that?
I have wondered if it may have been GM that night, but not carrying MM, but carrying a sedated Sean. The intention being that a person could have been seen heading to the beach carrying a body, but there was no risk - in the event that GM was eg stopped by the police, he could demonstrate he was carrying his live, sleeping son to help him get to  sleep. (Maddie having been disposed of before that). And that sighting became too dangerous because Smith identified GM from the plane footage, which was not supposed to happen, just supposed to be a dark haired man carrying a child towards the sea at a time GM had an alibi.
Alternatively maybe it was MM being carried and the intention initially for her body to be found, but then for some reason the plan changed?
All IMO of course.
What was the sense of doing it if no-one was meant to actually see him?  And surely he would be intelligent to work out that there would a certain amount of media coverage after the 'abduction' and he stood the risk of being identified by anyone who saw him?   And frankly it could have been a lot worse - Smith's identification is pretty flimsy and would never stand up in a court of law. What if he can been caught on CCTV or met someone who actually knew him by sight? 

If - and it's a big if - Smith actually saw Gerry then I can only surmise that this was not part of a plan and that he had snatched up the body and walked off - perhaps refusing to accept that she couldn't be revived, perhaps he was on his way to the health centre - but I can't see it as part of a cold blooded bid to hide the body. 

But I can't imagine any circumstances in which they would want the body found, there might well be forensic evidence that would incriminate them ...

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by finch on 29.10.13 17:02

Does anyone know if the hotel Estrella da Luz was on the way Smithman took that night? If so, isn't it possible he assumed there was CCTV and that he would be seen? The fact that the PJ did not investigate that right away, was maybe unforseen.

-------

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/viewtopic.forum?t=8419

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