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Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

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Who is 'Smith-man'? (MULTIPLE CHOICE - You can vote for more than one answer)

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Changing track back again

Post by PeterMac on 28.10.13 9:44

@StraightThinking wrote:I never understood why this thread should have taken the unexpected turn that it did (ie suggesting that five members of the same apparently honourable family should all have been - how can I put it? - economical with the truth when dealing with the police), especially in the light of recent developments. Anyone care to speculate?
It is interesting.

Gerry lied to the PJ
Kate lied to the PJ
They clearly 'constructively' lied to Leic Pol.
Their lawyer 'lied' in the High Court on their behalf ( in inverted commas, Kevin. Don't wet yourself yet.)
They are now shown to have 'constructively' lied to SY
Kate 'constructively' lied in her book - to anyone who read it
They have both 'constructively' lied in almost every TV appearance they have been involved in.
They have 'constructively' lied in the Portuguese court

And sometime soon, they are going to ask us to believe them

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by nobodythereeither on 28.10.13 10:43

@StraightThinking wrote:I never understood why this thread should have taken the unexpected turn that it did (ie suggesting that five members of the same apparently honourable family should all have been - how can I put it? - economical with the truth when dealing with the police), especially in the light of recent developments. Anyone care to speculate?
I never understood that either.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by tigger on 28.10.13 11:10

@nobodythereeither wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:I never understood why this thread should have taken the unexpected turn that it did (ie suggesting that five members of the same apparently honourable family should all have been - how can I put it? - economical with the truth when dealing with the police), especially in the light of recent developments. Anyone care to speculate?
I never understood that either.
errm, because people are entitled to their opinion and are invited to debate on what information they base that opinion?

Personally, I have always believed the sighting was genuine, that it was Gerry with another child who was fast asleep to establish an independent sighting, just nothing so detailed as he got, so I've barely taken part in this discussion as it is still my opinion. I believe he switched to the JT sighting and was just able to fit in JW which made his alibi 100%.
For the Smith sighting he'd only have had the group's alibi and as we've already learned, waiters do not place him at the table between 9.30 and 10.00.
So imo there was a quick decision made to get a 100% alibi by being seen with JW as the abductor was seen by JT.
He could not know that the Smiths would not come forward till a week or so later. He needed a 100% alibi and  then there were those beige trousers on the bed and then not on the bed. There was the PJ asking what Gerry was wearing on the night, dear, dear...

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Angelique on 28.10.13 11:23

@StraightThinking wrote:
@statsman wrote:Am I right in reading between the lines that some posters think it's possible that Martin Smith was doing Robert Murat a favour by reporting a fictitious sighting?
Yes, but I can't understand why someone would want to pervert the course of justice in these particular circumstances - RM wasn't guilty of anything so didn't need a false sighting to help him. And if MS thought he was guilty, why would he help him out anyway?

There are two things that we can conclude:
1) Smithman wasn't M's abductor because M was missing by 21.20 and it doesn't take 35 minutes to get there
2) He wasn't an innocent local or holidaymaker because they would have come forward

And the other possibilities are...?
Sorry have not read all the posts up to today but I wanted ask about this:

"1) Smithman wasn't M's abductor because M was missing by 21.20 and it doesn't take 35 minutes to get there"



Why does this come into the question of whether Smithman is the abductor - Madeleine could have gone missing anytime before Smithman. 

Smithman could have appeared when he was required to appear.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by StraightThinking on 28.10.13 11:27

@tigger wrote:
@nobodythereeither wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:I never understood why this thread should have taken the unexpected turn that it did (ie suggesting that five members of the same apparently honourable family should all have been - how can I put it? - economical with the truth when dealing with the police), especially in the light of recent developments. Anyone care to speculate?
I never understood that either.
errm, because people are entitled to their opinion and are invited to debate on what information they base that opinion?
It's one thing to question the accuracy of an independent witness, it's another to question their integrity (ie pointing the finger at someone just to get someone else off the hook). It's even more difficult to understand when there are suggestions it might be a conspiracy between 5 people. It took 6 years for someone to do that, and it happened just days before the Smith sighting appeared to become even more significant. Strange.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by sami on 28.10.13 11:28

@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
@susible wrote:I'm also reluctant to believe that the death occurred earlier, because the abduction charade was such a shambles, I honestly think that if they'd had more time to plan it, there wouldn't have been the inconsistencies, problematic timelines etc

Also Snr Amaral's thesis places the 3rd as being the day of the potential accident, due to the independent witnesses at the creche etc, and whilst I agree that the creche records were a bit of a disaster and the nannies didn't really know who their charges were, allowing for a substitute child in the creche, that would have been a very risky strategy had one of the nannies realised that the child signed in as Madeleine, was not her at all.  And of course, children of that age group can be quite vocal, so could easily say my name is not Madeleine etc, whereas a much younger child would not be able to, but the age group for Madeleine would easily be able to self-identify.

And of course there was the 9.30 -9.40 hullaballoo witnessed by the Carpenters and the tapas staff who notices that the group had all left the table except for DW.

Whilst I realise that this does not leave much time for the plan to be acted out, I have always thought that the entire sequence of events was a result of a panic reaction, which would certainly account for the inconsistencies in the tapas groups statements and timelines and Gerry inadvertently being seen by the Smiths as he frantically tried to spirit his daughter away from the apartment.

And now we know that the McCanns tried to bury the Smith sighting, I think that probably gives a good indication that Smith did see Gerry that night.
yep, Where would he have taken Madeline? Is it possible she was moved the night after the dogs searched 4A because they new the next day the beech area would be searched. This caused the delay in the Huelva trip that was due to take place the very next day?
The trip was delayed due to the impending visit by the PJ to the villa to search it, as far as I know.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by StraightThinking on 28.10.13 11:30

@Angelique wrote:Sorry have not read all the posts up to today but I wanted ask about this:

"1) Smithman wasn't M's abductor because M was missing by 21.20 and it doesn't take 35 minutes to get there"


Why does this come into the question of whether Smithman is the abductor - Madeleine could have gone missing anytime before Smithman. 

Smithman could have appeared when he was required to appear.
One independent witness said he heard a girl was missing at 21.20, and another said she heard someone calling her name between 21.15 and 21.30. If someone had abducted M, he wouldn't have been wandering the streets with her for over half an hour.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by tiny on 28.10.13 12:13

perhaps this is were the blue bag comes into it,if Gerry was seen with Madeleine at 10 o/c and the alarm was raised at 21.10

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 28.10.13 12:34

@tigger wrote:
@nobodythereeither wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:I never understood why this thread should have taken the unexpected turn that it did (ie suggesting that five members of the same apparently honourable family should all have been - how can I put it? - economical with the truth when dealing with the police), especially in the light of recent developments. Anyone care to speculate?
I never understood that either.
errm, because people are entitled to their opinion and are invited to debate on what information they base that opinion?

Personally, I have always believed the sighting was genuine, that it was Gerry with another child who was fast asleep to establish an independent sighting, just nothing so detailed as he got, so I've barely taken part in this discussion as it is still my opinion. I believe he switched to the JT sighting and was just able to fit in JW which made his alibi 100%.
For the Smith sighting he'd only have had the group's alibi and as we've already learned, waiters do not place him at the table between 9.30 and 10.00.
So imo there was a quick decision made to get a 100% alibi by being seen with JW as the abductor was seen by JT.
He could not know that the Smiths would not come forward till a week or so later. He needed a 100% alibi and  then there were those beige trousers on the bed and then not on the bed. There was the PJ asking what Gerry was wearing on the night, dear, dear...
So you think Gerry's alibi is that he was running round with a look-alike?  Why would he do that? Why not sit in the tapas bar and phone someone? Do you think Madeline was gone earlier ? Why quash the sighting report?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 28.10.13 12:49

@StraightThinking wrote:
@Angelique wrote:Sorry have not read all the posts up to today but I wanted ask about this:

"1) Smithman wasn't M's abductor because M was missing by 21.20 and it doesn't take 35 minutes to get there"


Why does this come into the question of whether Smithman is the abductor - Madeleine could have gone missing anytime before Smithman. 

Smithman could have appeared when he was required to appear.
One independent witness said he heard a girl was missing at 21.20, and another said she heard someone calling her name between 21.15 and 21.30. If someone had abducted M, he wouldn't have been wandering the streets with her for over half an hour.
 So.

1. It's an innoscent sighting unrelated.. Doesn't explain the cadaver scent in 4A
2. Madeline was moved after she was "missing" for 30 - 45 mins
3. Madeline wondered off round Praia da Luz for 30 - 45 mins then was abducted from the street... Doesn't explain the cadaver scent in 4A, does explain Gerry not being a suspect, the guilt of the McCanns as the didn't notice she'd just wondered off.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 28.10.13 12:58

@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@Angelique wrote:Sorry have not read all the posts up to today but I wanted ask about this:

"1) Smithman wasn't M's abductor because M was missing by 21.20 and it doesn't take 35 minutes to get there"


Why does this come into the question of whether Smithman is the abductor - Madeleine could have gone missing anytime before Smithman. 

Smithman could have appeared when he was required to appear.
One independent witness said he heard a girl was missing at 21.20, and another said she heard someone calling her name between 21.15 and 21.30. If someone had abducted M, he wouldn't have been wandering the streets with her for over half an hour.
 So.

1. It's an innoscent sighting unrelated.. Doesn't explain the cadaver scent in 4A
2. Madeline was moved after she was "missing" for 30 - 45 mins
3. Madeline wondered off round Praia da Luz for 30 - 45 mins then was abducted from the street... Doesn't explain the cadaver scent in 4A, does explain Gerry not being a suspect, the guilt of the McCanns as the didn't notice she'd just wondered off.
I've wondered if she had wandered and fallen over the balcony into the bushes where scent was found.  In the meantime she was discovered missing on a check  around 915 and that person was wandering around calling her name in case she had wandered off, then she was discovered in the bushes, taken into the flat behind the sofa whilst resuscitation etc took place there, then carried off by "smithman" to a hiding place whilst official alarm was raised....

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by galena on 28.10.13 13:04

@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@Angelique wrote:Sorry have not read all the posts up to today but I wanted ask about this:

"1) Smithman wasn't M's abductor because M was missing by 21.20 and it doesn't take 35 minutes to get there"


Why does this come into the question of whether Smithman is the abductor - Madeleine could have gone missing anytime before Smithman. 

Smithman could have appeared when he was required to appear.
One independent witness said he heard a girl was missing at 21.20, and another said she heard someone calling her name between 21.15 and 21.30. If someone had abducted M, he wouldn't have been wandering the streets with her for over half an hour.
 So.

1. It's an innoscent sighting unrelated.. Doesn't explain the cadaver scent in 4A
2. Madeline was moved after she was "missing" for 30 - 45 mins
3. Madeline wondered off round Praia da Luz for 30 - 45 mins then was abducted from the street... Doesn't explain the cadaver scent in 4A, does explain Gerry not being a suspect, the guilt of the McCanns as the didn't notice she'd just wondered off.
Yes, sadly whenever I try to imagine Madeleine still alive and perhaps happy having been taken by a couple who did a wicked thing but genuinely wanted a child - the spectre of the cadaver evidence comes back to haunt me.  At the time I didn't pay so much attention to it, but now with sightings discredited/queried, numerous timelines it seems the one solid piece of evidence that the McCanns PR machine can't distort and twist completely.  Dogs can't be accused of having an agenda!

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hongkong Phooey on 28.10.13 13:06

Stewie wrote:
I've wondered if she had wandered and fallen over the balcony into the bushes where scent was found.  In the meantime she was discovered missing on a check  around 915 and that person was wandering around calling her name in case she had wandered off, then she was discovered in the bushes, taken into the flat behind the sofa whilst resuscitation etc took place there, then carried off by "smithman" to a hiding place whilst official alarm was raised....
The cadaver ‘odour’ needs time to mature before the dogs can indicate, it is generally thought this takes 1 ½ to 2 hours before the dogs can signal. The resuscitation element is interesting if we remember back to the radio interview Jane Tanner did where she let slip that if there was an accident there were plenty doctors available to resuscitate her (all volunteered not specifically asked about).

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by sallypelt on 28.10.13 13:14

Stewie wrote:
@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@Angelique wrote:Sorry have not read all the posts up to today but I wanted ask about this:

"1) Smithman wasn't M's abductor because M was missing by 21.20 and it doesn't take 35 minutes to get there"


Why does this come into the question of whether Smithman is the abductor - Madeleine could have gone missing anytime before Smithman. 

Smithman could have appeared when he was required to appear.
One independent witness said he heard a girl was missing at 21.20, and another said she heard someone calling her name between 21.15 and 21.30. If someone had abducted M, he wouldn't have been wandering the streets with her for over half an hour.
 So.

1. It's an innoscent sighting unrelated.. Doesn't explain the cadaver scent in 4A
2. Madeline was moved after she was "missing" for 30 - 45 mins
3. Madeline wondered off round Praia da Luz for 30 - 45 mins then was abducted from the street... Doesn't explain the cadaver scent in 4A, does explain Gerry not being a suspect, the guilt of the McCanns as the didn't notice she'd just wondered off.
I've wondered if she had wandered and fallen over the balcony into the bushes where scent was found.  In the meantime she was discovered missing on a check  around 915 and that person was wandering around calling her name in case she had wandered off, then she was discovered in the bushes, taken into the flat behind the sofa whilst resuscitation etc took place there, then carried off by "smithman" to a hiding place whilst official alarm was raised....
Stewie, I think you could be spot on. If Madeleine DID go out of the apartment, she would certainly not have closed the door behind her. So, when Kate is talking about doors open, is she referring to the EXTERNAL door, but using the bedroom door to hide what really happened?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by jeanmonroe on 28.10.13 13:18

IF Smithman IS a totally innocent person taking his child home WHERE does that leave SY and McCanns?

Smithman= no 'abductor'
Tannerman= no 'abductor'

Maybe one of the McCann 'friends' will suddenly 'remember' seeing yet ANOTHER 'abductor' strolling around town with a kidnapped child, wearing the EXACT same pyjamas as Madeleine SO it must have been the 'new' him/her that did it!

IF there is no 'abductor' and there's absolutely no proof at all that there was indeed an 'abduction', ONLY the McCanns SAY SO, which relied SOLELY on their friend Jane's 'sighting of Madeleine being carried off'

With the 'Madeleine' wearing the EXACT same pyjamas that JT didn't KNOW about until Gerry told 'afterwards' (cough, cough)

With the Smiths 'seeing' this person carrying a child, (in pyjamas) you'd have thought they would have given a detailed description of the pyjamas which, of course, would be an EXACT match to the ones Madeleine WAS wearing.

Did they?

Where does that leave the McCanns?

The LAST ones to admit SEEING her in her bed, supposedly.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 28.10.13 13:21

I wonder if the Portuguese reconstruction might bring forward a few more sightings of Smithman?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 28.10.13 13:23

@Hongkong Phooey wrote:
Stewie wrote:
I've wondered if she had wandered and fallen over the balcony into the bushes where scent was found.  In the meantime she was discovered missing on a check  around 915 and that person was wandering around calling her name in case she had wandered off, then she was discovered in the bushes, taken into the flat behind the sofa whilst resuscitation etc took place there, then carried off by "smithman" to a hiding place whilst official alarm was raised....
The cadaver ‘odour’ needs time to mature before the dogs can indicate, it is generally thought this takes 1 ½ to 2 hours before the dogs can signal. The resuscitation element is interesting if we remember back to the radio interview Jane Tanner did where she let slip that if there was an accident there were plenty doctors available to resuscitate her (all volunteered not specifically asked about).
So hypothetically of course, she wakes on hearing them leave , looks for themandfalls around 830ish, enough time in the bushes for the scent to develop but because its outside it is disappated.  She is then moved to inside flat where scent is deposited behind sofa and then carried away ...

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Sockpuppet on 28.10.13 13:26

Stewie wrote:
@Hongkong Phooey wrote:
Stewie wrote:
I've wondered if she had wandered and fallen over the balcony into the bushes where scent was found.  In the meantime she was discovered missing on a check  around 915 and that person was wandering around calling her name in case she had wandered off, then she was discovered in the bushes, taken into the flat behind the sofa whilst resuscitation etc took place there, then carried off by "smithman" to a hiding place whilst official alarm was raised....
The cadaver ‘odour’ needs time to mature before the dogs can indicate, it is generally thought this takes 1 ½ to 2 hours before the dogs can signal. The resuscitation element is interesting if we remember back to the radio interview Jane Tanner did where she let slip that if there was an accident there were plenty doctors available to resuscitate her (all volunteered not specifically asked about).
So hypothetically of course, she wakes on hearing them leave , looks for themandfalls around 830ish, enough time in the bushes for the scent to develop but because its outside it is disappated.  She is then moved to inside flat where scent is deposited behind sofa and then carried away ...
The 'window of tragedy' may well be a lot bigger than most assume.  We have no idea what was going on between 5.30 and 8.30, except for what Kate, Gerry, and David Payne have told us.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 28.10.13 13:36

@Sockpuppet wrote:
Stewie wrote:
@Hongkong Phooey wrote:
Stewie wrote:
I've wondered if she had wandered and fallen over the balcony into the bushes where scent was found.  In the meantime she was discovered missing on a check  around 915 and that person was wandering around calling her name in case she had wandered off, then she was discovered in the bushes, taken into the flat behind the sofa whilst resuscitation etc took place there, then carried off by "smithman" to a hiding place whilst official alarm was raised....
The cadaver ‘odour’ needs time to mature before the dogs can indicate, it is generally thought this takes 1 ½ to 2 hours before the dogs can signal. The resuscitation element is interesting if we remember back to the radio interview Jane Tanner did where she let slip that if there was an accident there were plenty doctors available to resuscitate her (all volunteered not specifically asked about).
So hypothetically of course, she wakes on hearing them leave , looks for themandfalls around 830ish, enough time in the bushes for the scent to develop but because its outside it is disappated.  She is then moved to inside flat where scent is deposited behind sofa and then carried away ...
The 'window of tragedy' may well be a lot bigger than most assume.  We have no idea what was going on between 5.30 and 8.30, except for what Kate, Gerry, and David Payne have told us.
And there were several versions of the DP visit too..

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by jeanmonroe on 28.10.13 13:42

sockpuppet wrote:
"The 'window of tragedy' may well be a lot bigger than most assume.  We have no idea what was going on between 5.30 and 8.30, except for what Kate, Gerry, and David Payne have told us."
............................................................................................................

I still can't get out of my head FP's 'visit' at 7:00pm to the McCanns, (making HER the LAST non McCann to 'see' Madeleine? NOT as widely reported DP, her husband, supposedly sent by GM to check on KM and kids at about 6:30pm) apartment on 3rd May 2007.

NO 'lost in translation' issues here, as this was an English cop asking questions of FP in English.

1485
I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her statements, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier statement" or some similar statement.
1485
“What is it you do for a living?”
FP
“I’m an Anaesthetist, so I, erm, it combines a lot of different skills, we work in obstetrics, on labour ward doing epidurals, doing caesarean sections for women and we work on intensive care unit, in theatres, cover any need for, you know, resuscitation. So, yeah, it’s quite a stressful job and a busy job, erm, I enjoy it”.
1485
“And how long have you been”.
FP
“Erm, I’ve been an Anaesthetist since about ninety-seven, erm, in Leicester”.

a trained anesthetist: (A person specially trained to administer anesthetics.)

Could this, 19:00hrs (7:00pm) be when an 'accident' ocurred?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by possumsall on 28.10.13 15:40

@thetruthbeknown wrote:I wonder if the Portuguese reconstruction might bring forward a few more sightings of Smithman?
I'm warming to the idea that the Church had some part in the storage of Maddie's body. Perhaps her body was immediately deposited inside the locked church until whosoever came to take it away for final burial/cremation.

By the way - the nose of a specially trained Cadaver Dog is 50.000 times stronger than a human nose. Think on that fact alone folks - fifty thousand times stronger. FBI.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by oakeso on 28.10.13 15:41

I don't believe JT saw Tannerman so found it annoying when SY subsequently identified him coming from the creche without his complimentary blanket walking in the opposite direction or mayb he was walking backwards. But now I think I see the funny side. 

I've always believed Smithman was real and that it was GM on a decoy mission after someone fluffed their lines/got cold feet. It fits so well, he'd be uncomfortable carrying a child that wasn't his own, Smith identified him and the efits are remarkably close. 

But I can't figure out what would take GM down Rua 25 de Abril - it seems to be well off his route. And too many things point to something happening before 3rd - if this was the plan I don't understand why he didn't wear a hoodie/baseball cap. It doesn't add up, too much risk. If nothing else a danger of being picked up on CCTV. 

Grand central for men taking a nightly stroll with sleeping daughters perhaps, I believe the Smiths were telling the truth.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Onager on 28.10.13 17:00

Based upon my limited knowledge, I concur with Tigger re Smithman being GM.

I'm also of the opinion Madeleine befell her accident before the 3rd, hence KM sleeping in the other room, and the scent picked up in the cupboard in the bedroom. Obviously, the creche records beg to differ... but these do from memory appear somewhat sloppy.

The point re the Tapas 7 being 'unprepared' is a very good point, but I feel this reflects the fluidity of the night's events. Could it be the FP's mother was the one person not initially in on the staged event sometime after 9?

Why the particular route? Is it possible the path taken by GM was planned because it had no CCTV cameras? His brisk walk, complete with decoy, was as suggested by others to give plausibility to the abductor scenario... only GM hadn't encountered on bumping into such a large group... hence on his return, the hastily re-jigged timeline... to implicate JT's 'sighting' giving GM the alibi he now needed...

This would also fit in with the contacting of the police. It could only be done only on GM's return, otherwise the risk of his being stopped... carrying a little girl.

Put yourself in GM's shoes as he returns shortly after 10. the search/alarm has being rumbling on for 20+ minutes... no sign of her. Pressure is mounting to call in the cops. When he tells the others 'I was seen'. 'Wasn't that the plan?' 'I mean I was seen!' As the 8 (9 minus FP's mother) or 9 start to panic, one of them remembers GM talking to Jeez... and the JT sightings is hatched. The result is they have to account for the 20 minutes or so before 10... hence the written timeline.
Someone pipes up 'what about all these people searching?' 'Who they going to believe?'
And if not already on board, FPs mother is persuaded to co-operate.

Given they are all professionals, I also believe they introduced via their statements, an element of confusion/difference into the 'timeline'. The last thing they needed was to be a seemingly well rehearsed quorum... it is human nature for us all to see and recall the same thing differently, however slight.

So where was GM going?

He couldn't risk turning up at the apt with the decoy, so was he met by the parent of the decoy? Someone who could vouch for the child if stopped?

So the question that needs answering, is had GM been seen from a distance carrying the decoy, why expose him/themselves to this risky element of the 'plan'? With no sighting, verified by a 'third' party, the PJ would be forced to turn their focus on the Tapas 9. You only have to see how much time & effort was trained on JT's supposed abductor.

So with Madeleine's body already having been moved, the plan was to create a chaotic scene enabling GM to put the icing on the cake by going 'walkabout'... and remember, it had to be GM, none of the other men would volunteer for such a thing... would they?

As mentioned previously, relatively new to the detail of the case... but this is how my fresh pair of eyes see things.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 28.10.13 17:03

Stewie wrote:
@Hongkong Phooey wrote:
Stewie wrote:
I've wondered if she had wandered and fallen over the balcony into the bushes where scent was found.  In the meantime she was discovered missing on a check  around 915 and that person was wandering around calling her name in case she had wandered off, then she was discovered in the bushes, taken into the flat behind the sofa whilst resuscitation etc took place there, then carried off by "smithman" to a hiding place whilst official alarm was raised....
The cadaver ‘odour’ needs time to mature before the dogs can indicate, it is generally thought this takes 1 ½ to 2 hours before the dogs can signal. The resuscitation element is interesting if we remember back to the radio interview Jane Tanner did where she let slip that if there was an accident there were plenty doctors available to resuscitate her (all volunteered not specifically asked about).
So hypothetically of course, she wakes on hearing them leave , looks for themandfalls around 830ish, enough time in the bushes for the scent to develop but because its outside it is disappated.  She is then moved to inside flat where scent is deposited behind sofa and then carried away ...
I'm thinking  the same. but why behind the sofa? I'm still at a loss about the odour in the Scenic. If a body was moved... Why?

Have you a source for the time for the cadaver odour to appear. It seems Keela is pretty special and at the edge of new knowledge on this front.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by sami on 28.10.13 17:18

@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
Stewie wrote:
@Hongkong Phooey wrote:
Stewie wrote:
I've wondered if she had wandered and fallen over the balcony into the bushes where scent was found.  In the meantime she was discovered missing on a check  around 915 and that person was wandering around calling her name in case she had wandered off, then she was discovered in the bushes, taken into the flat behind the sofa whilst resuscitation etc took place there, then carried off by "smithman" to a hiding place whilst official alarm was raised....
The cadaver ‘odour’ needs time to mature before the dogs can indicate, it is generally thought this takes 1 ½ to 2 hours before the dogs can signal. The resuscitation element is interesting if we remember back to the radio interview Jane Tanner did where she let slip that if there was an accident there were plenty doctors available to resuscitate her (all volunteered not specifically asked about).
So hypothetically of course, she wakes on hearing them leave , looks for themandfalls around 830ish, enough time in the bushes for the scent to develop but because its outside it is disappated.  She is then moved to inside flat where scent is deposited behind sofa and then carried away ...
I'm thinking  the same. but why behind the sofa? I'm still at a loss about the odour in the Scenic. If a body was moved... Why?

Have you a source for the time for the cadaver odour to appear. It seems Keela is pretty special and at the edge of new knowledge on this front.
Just because there was an alert and material found in the boot, does not mean there was a body in the boot, IMO.  The dogs alerts coud have been as a result of material being transported to the dump, a bag or wrappings for example, that had once been used to wrap a body in.

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