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Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

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Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Sockpuppet on 29.10.13 17:08

@finch wrote:Does anyone know if the hotel Estrella da Luz was on the way Smithman took that night? If so, isn't it possible he assumed there was CCTV and that he would be seen? The fact that the PJ did not investigate that right away, was maybe unforseen.
Why would Smithman want to be caught on CCTV and identified?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by PeterMac on 29.10.13 17:15

Smithman now gives the abductor only 4 or five minutes between the last Tapasnik crossing the car park towards the bar and NOT seeing shutters smashed, the window wide open, curtains whooshing, people and cars around and so on - and Kate's visit.
He cannot now use the patio door to enter or exit, because of the little gate and child security gate, which were both closed - or Kate would have told us (perhaps ! !)
So it has to be through the front, and to organise the window takes more time than using a front door key. In any event even Mitchell admits the window was not used.
BUT
Kate smells nothing when she enters. So Edgar's Victorian melodrama Chloroform or ether, ( we now know he doesn't have O level Chemistry, by the way) is out of the window - as it were.
So he is left with giving three children injections, which for those who understand children is not altogether believable, using a substance unknown to medical science, or waking them all to administer by mouth, again a substance unknown to medical science,
And he has three minutes to complete it and get out. And they have to be comatose within that time.
And the twins must then sleep for 10 hours and wake with no after effects, having been comprehensively neglected by no fewer than TWO qualified anaesthetists, plus an assortment of others who claim to have medical training.

With Tannerman there was half an hour or so during which any drug could have taken effect.
Now there isn't.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by tigger on 29.10.13 17:21

@Sockpuppet wrote:
@finch wrote:Does anyone know if the hotel Estrella da Luz was on the way Smithman took that night? If so, isn't it possible he assumed there was CCTV and that he would be seen? The fact that the PJ did not investigate that right away, was maybe unforseen.
Why would Smithman want to be caught on CCTV and identified?
There was no CCTV there. Why does everyone appear  to think that the PJ didn't think of that?

It does annoy me when the bl.......ing obvious is pointed out over and over again. It's in the files. Available to all who wish to read them. Free of charge. On the internet. On several sites easily found via Google.....

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Sockpuppet on 29.10.13 17:25

@tigger wrote:
@Sockpuppet wrote:
@finch wrote:Does anyone know if the hotel Estrella da Luz was on the way Smithman took that night? If so, isn't it possible he assumed there was CCTV and that he would be seen? The fact that the PJ did not investigate that right away, was maybe unforseen.
Why would Smithman want to be caught on CCTV and identified?
There was no CCTV there. Why does everyone appear  to think that the PJ didn't think of that?

It does annoy me when the bl.......ing obvious is pointed out over and over again. It's in the files. Available to all who wish to read them. Free of charge. On the internet. On several sites easily found via Google.....
I assume you quoted me by mistake, I didn't say there was :)

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 29.10.13 17:29

With all due respect to new members - but, it is sometimes a bit tiring, when new questions or ideas are being brought up, whereas a genuine read of available genuine information is, well, available ...

No offense, meant. And definitely not pointing towards obstruction of the debate, but ... well, again, some of us are as well-versed on this case as an elder on the bible winkwink 

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Lance De Boils on 29.10.13 17:34

But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 29.10.13 17:35

@Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
Yes, you are right Lane there was they pointed it out.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 29.10.13 17:37

Can members who have been here a long time please appreciate there are a lot of new people joining here, from links given, ie Katie Hopkins etc., who know very little about this case, so please can everyone be a little patient with them and just point out any mistakes and perhaps direct them to a relevant thread.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 29.10.13 17:46

@Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by worriedmum on 29.10.13 17:48

@thetruthbeknown wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??
Quite!

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Sockpuppet on 29.10.13 17:49

@thetruthbeknown wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??
Maybe the wiping is done automatically and they didn't think to keep the footage?  I mean, I imagine most businesses wouldn't bother unless the police specifically asked for it.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 29.10.13 17:49

@thetruthbeknown wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??
A lot of CCTV cameral are on a loop and when at the end just record over the old stuff. Don't forget Mr Smith didn't contact PJ straight away, some time had elapsed.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Lance De Boils on 29.10.13 17:54

I quite agree Candyfloss. (eta: With a few posts back, now!)

I remember being "attacked" when I first joined this forum. I was assumed to be a "troll" just because I was new here. However, what people failed to realise is that I've been on other fora since day one (MF, 3As, MCF etc). I had just "migrated" here. 

I was an "old-timer" from elsewhere, so know how these places operate, generally.

However, there will be others who have just delved into this case and forum-land for the first time.

I would like to make some suggestions:

1. Please remember that some people will be genuinely new to much of the information here. There is an awful lot of data and the vast majority of it has never been covered by the news media.

2. If posters are perceived to be trying to derail a topic of discussion, please don't bother getting into tit-for-tat arguments. Just completely ignore them. Or discuss it by private messaging.

3. If a poster asks a question that you are fed up with answering/reading about, just skim over it. Someone else will usually reply. 

4. Remember that behind the screens we are (mostly) all human. We sometimes type things we later regret. We make mistakes. We have things going on in our "real" lives that affect our mood and reasoning. We will have different opinions about different matters.

And that's all great - for what a boring place this would be otherwise. yes

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 29.10.13 17:57

candyfloss wrote:
@thetruthbeknown wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:But there was a CCTV camera on the Smithman route. It's shown on the video with Paul Luckman. (Was that his name?)
However it wasn't checked in the beginning and when enquiries were made, the tapes had been wiped. Amaral was apparently furious that his officers had missed it in the first place.
I find it strange that it had been wiped..If I remember correctly they said it was policy to wipe after '48 hours'...however it was also said that nearby complexes etc, were aware a child had apparently gone missing...why on earth would you wipe your cctv footage, knowing that its quite possible it would be wanting to be viewed at some stage??
A lot of CCTV cameral are on a loop and when at the end just record over the old stuff. Don't forget Mr Smith didn't contact PJ straight away, some time had elapsed.
CCTV can be recorded and kept otherwise they would be no use to anyone..would be something I would do if in a nearby business and had heard of an event like that..at least kept it for a few weeks, or I would of asked if the footage was required? Wasnt this place very near to the complex, if I remember correctly?...obviously an abductor would take some route..id think most businesses would have thought the same.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Lance De Boils on 29.10.13 18:00

It is a real shame about the CCTV footage being lost. 
We'll never know now why it didn't survive. It could well have been on a loop as others have suggested.
Or it might not.
 
But the cameras were quite visible, not tucked away anywhere out of sight.

Surely a genuine adbuctor would never have walked right past them? But then, a genuine abductor would surely have had a vehicle near the apartment for a quick getaway, and wouldn't have decided to go for a walk around town with the child....

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Lance De Boils on 29.10.13 18:05

@thetruthbeknown wrote:CCTV can be recorded and kept otherwise they would be no use to anyone..would be something I would do if in a nearby business and had heard of an event like that..at least kept it for a few weeks, or I would of asked if the footage was required? Wasnt this place very near to the complex, if I remember correctly?...obviously an abductor would take some route..id think most businesses would have thought the same.
As you say, you'd think most people would have made a point of keeping CCTV footage, wouldn't you? Hard to believe that people would have been unaware of the massive story breaking in that small town.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 29.10.13 18:12

I agree too with Candyfloss and Lance [a few posts back]. I would just hope that the real "newbies" would ask questions rather than pose old, derailed, eliminated theories. Having said that, it can sometimes be helpful having to think about and counter such theories again ... Let's just agree to disagree, whenever necessary. And continue our quest to Justice for Madeleine. Which, IMO!, is going to be very soon, as I can hear the walls crumbling ...

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 29.10.13 18:15

@Lance De Boils wrote:As you say, you'd think most people would have made a point of keeping CCTV footage, wouldn't you? Hard to believe that people would have been unaware of the massive story breaking in that small town.
Yes, plus I seem to remember reading that some staff and holidaymakers did go to surrounding areas to look. I cant see that they wouldnt have been made aware fairly early on. Unless of course they viewed it and decided nothing there??

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Woofer on 29.10.13 18:17

I agree Châtelaine - its often helpful to go over old ground.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by nobodythereeither on 29.10.13 18:27

Re the CCTV footage no longer being available, assuming it was recorded over and not actually wiped, might it not still somehow be accessible?

A bit like if you know what you are doing you can find stuff on a hard drive which has been deleted?

Or is it a different system? Sorry, I'm not very techie ..... and I imagine the PJ would have thought of that at the time .... ??

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 29.10.13 18:48

@nobodythereeither wrote:Re the CCTV footage no longer being available, assuming it was recorded over and not actually wiped, might it not still somehow be accessible?

A bit like if you know what you are doing you can find stuff on a hard drive which has been deleted?

Or is it a different system? Sorry, I'm not very techie ..... and I imagine the PJ would have thought of that at the time .... ??
Im not sure how cctv imaging works, or if you can use data recovery with it. Would be interesting to know though.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Lance De Boils on 29.10.13 19:06

I guess that depends on how modern the system is. If it was the old fashioned video cassette type, then I would think no chance.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Silver Shuffle on 30.10.13 7:55

Sounds like Smithman is going to be a deceased ex employee of the Ocean Club, according to CM this morning....sad1

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by nobodythereeither on 30.10.13 13:23

@Silver Shuffle wrote:Sounds like Smithman is going to be a deceased ex employee of the Ocean Club, according to CM this morning....sad1
What do you mean? Have I missed something?

Could you expand on that? Thanks!

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 30.10.13 13:26

@nobodythereeither wrote:
@Silver Shuffle wrote:Sounds like Smithman is going to be a deceased ex employee of the Ocean Club, according to CM this morning....sad1
What do you mean? Have I missed something?

Could you expand on that? Thanks!
Here...

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8351p160-pj-searches-for-maddie-s-body-again

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