Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

by Hicks 24.10.13 20:43

StraightThinking wrote:
Five Star wrote:They could have delayed the announcement to perhaps the next morning - announcing that she had been taken by a stranger in the night.
This assumes that K wasn't genuinely shocked to find M missing. Maybe her panic and rush to raise the alarm was real

This is my thought StraightThinking, it could be that GM acted alone in the discovery and removal from his check at 9.15/20. Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine's name around this time. It is from this witnesses statement that I believe M did not die before the 3rd.

By the look of Kate's wrists it appears they could have had some sort of fight whereby her wrists were restrained( from hitting him?)

by nobodythereeither 24.10.13 20:46

Five Star wrote:"what are we left with if all the Tapas males turn out to have solid alibis? Personally I think that is where this investigation is heading -"

We're left with a load of dog alerts, refusal to answer questions by the mother of a missing child, refusal to return for a reconstruction, employment of dodgy PIs, apparent lies, inconsistencies in statements, and non-transparent accounts of a non-charitable fund. For a start.

Oh, and many lawyers.

by Sockpuppet 24.10.13 20:48

Hicks wrote:
StraightThinking wrote:
Five Star wrote:They could have delayed the announcement to perhaps the next morning - announcing that she had been taken by a stranger in the night.
This assumes that K wasn't genuinely shocked to find M missing. Maybe her panic and rush to raise the alarm was real
This is my thought StraightThinking, it could be that GM acted alone in the discovery and removal from his check at 9.15/20. Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine's name around this time. It is from this witnesses statement that I believe M did not die before the 3rd.

By the look of Kate's wrists it appears they could have had some sort of fight whereby her wrists were restrained( from hitting him?)

From the rogatory interview of Jeronimo Rodrigues Salcedas on 23rd April 2008:

"I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child. We were sent to the beach zone and looked in all the alleys and called out the name of the child but did not find her. Later, we returned to the Tapas where we found John, the Manager of Mark Warner. There were many people now, perhaps 40 including the Mark Warner personnel. We were divided into groups and Ewan and Rob (both employed by Mark Warner), my cousin, Miguel, and I went in a Mark Warner vehicle to search a beach zone which included a construction site. Again, we did not see any signs of the child and after a telephone we returned to the Tapas."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

This is the statement from an independent witness that has me convinced that Kate discovered that Madeleine was dead, when the search to find her had already begun. Blind panic sets in.

by Hicks 24.10.13 21:01

Sockpuppet wrote:
Hicks wrote:
StraightThinking wrote:
Five Star wrote:They could have delayed the announcement to perhaps the next morning - announcing that she had been taken by a stranger in the night.
This assumes that K wasn't genuinely shocked to find M missing. Maybe her panic and rush to raise the alarm was real
This is my thought StraightThinking, it could be that GM acted alone in the discovery and removal from his check at 9.15/20. Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine's name around this time. It is from this witnesses statement that I believe M did not die before the 3rd.

By the look of Kate's wrists it appears they could have had some sort of fight whereby her wrists were restrained( from hitting him?)
From the rogatory interview of Jeronimo Rodrigues Salcedas on 23rd April 2008:

"I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child. We were sent to the beach zone and looked in all the alleys and called out the name of the child but did not find her. Later, we returned to the Tapas where we found John, the Manager of Mark Warner. There were many people now, perhaps 40 including the Mark Warner personnel. We were divided into groups and Ewan and Rob (both employed by Mark Warner), my cousin, Miguel, and I went in a Mark Warner vehicle to search a beach zone which included a construction site. Again, we did not see any signs of the child and after a telephone we returned to the Tapas."

This is the statement from an independent witness that has me convinced that Kate discovered that Madeleine was dead, when the search to find her had already begun. Blind panic sets in.

Another piece of the jigsaw that is beginning to reveal the overall picture.
GM is more than capable to act in this way IMO. Well... he's always telling us how 'proactive' he is!

by StraightThinking 24.10.13 21:02

Excellent observations, Sockpuppet

Since searches for missing children are designed to find them, there is every chance that this one succeeded, only sadly the child was dead

I doubt it took more than a few minutes after the alarm was raised since she can't have been far away

The question is - who made the horrible discovery? And did they feel responsible for her fate? (there are a number of possible reasons why)

Smithman was spotted several minutes later

It all fits ....

by Guest 24.10.13 21:08

StraightThinking wrote:Excellent observations, Sockpuppet

Since searches for missing children are designed to find them, there is every chance that this one succeeded, only sadly the child was dead

I doubt it took more than a few minutes after the alarm was raised since she can't have been far away

The question is - who made the horrible discovery? And did they feel responsible for her fate? (there are a number of possible reasons why)

Smithman was spotted several minutes later

It all fits ....

I'm lost, how does it fit? How does this scenario allow for the cadaver alerts in the apartment?

by Guest 24.10.13 21:11

Sockpuppet wrote:[...]This is the statement from an independent witness that has me convinced that Kate discovered that Madeleine was dead, when the search to find her had already begun. Blind panic sets in.[/font][/color]

***
It might have been the "real thing" ... She knew she was dead, was planned to be "removed" [abducted], went to see her one last time and found she'd been "taken" already ... Just speculation on my part.

by StraightThinking 24.10.13 21:12

candyfloss wrote:I'm lost, how does it fit? How does this scenario allow for the cadaver alerts in the apartment?

Here are two very plausible suggestions
1) The dogs didn't arrive for another three months, nobody said a body was in there on May 3
2) The cadaverine was planted in the hope of obtaining a confession

by Sockpuppet 24.10.13 21:14

candyfloss wrote:
StraightThinking wrote:Excellent observations, Sockpuppet

Since searches for missing children are designed to find them, there is every chance that this one succeeded, only sadly the child was dead

I doubt it took more than a few minutes after the alarm was raised since she can't have been far away

The question is - who made the horrible discovery? And did they feel responsible for her fate? (there are a number of possible reasons why)

Smithman was spotted several minutes later

It all fits ....
I'm lost, how does it fit? How does this scenario allow for the cadaver alerts in the apartment?

Perhaps they didn't think to look behind the sofa. The Tapas group went out searching in bushes etc., Gerry running into the Tapas area to search the children's play area. Several witnesses describe the search.

Kate finds Maddy behind the sofa, screams. Picks up her up, takes her into the bedroom by (or in) the wardrobe - maybe Kate is wearing the checked trousers that Eddie alerted to.

Body is then removed very quickly. Sofa is pushed up against the wall. Cleaning of the area behind the sofa takes place later.

Just a hypothesis of course.

by sami 24.10.13 21:15

StraightThinking wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I'm lost, how does it fit? How does this scenario allow for the cadaver alerts in the apartment?
Here are two very plausible suggestions
1) The dogs didn't arrive for another three months, nobody said a body was in there on May 3
2) The cadaverine was planted in the hope of obtaining a confession

Which does not explain the clothes, flower bed, car boot, car key fob etc etc

Where does one buy cadaverine, on-line ? Is it a growing market ? Or will any old sea bass be sufficient.

by Sockpuppet 24.10.13 21:18

Châtelaine wrote:
Sockpuppet wrote:[...]This is the statement from an independent witness that has me convinced that Kate discovered that Madeleine was dead, when the search to find her had already begun. Blind panic sets in.[/font][/color]
***
It might have been the "real thing" ... She knew she was dead, was planned to be "removed" [abducted], went to see her one last time and found she'd been "taken" already ... Just speculation on my part.

I've considered that, but I have difficulty with Kate going to the Tapas as if nothing had happened to her daughter, and then screaming and becoming emotional enough to need to be restrained later. I firmly believe that the scream was the moment she discovered her daughter's death.

If she already knew Maddy was dead, why would she scream like that when they were attempting to stage an abduction? Surely she would just draw unwanted attention, seriously damage their chances of getting away with it.

by Guest 24.10.13 21:18

StraightThinking wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I'm lost, how does it fit? How does this scenario allow for the cadaver alerts in the apartment?
Here are two very plausible suggestions
1) The dogs didn't arrive for another three months, nobody said a body was in there on May 3
2) The cadaverine was planted in the hope of obtaining a confession

Planted by whom, and from where did they get it? I assume you mean the PJ.

by Sockpuppet 24.10.13 21:21

StraightThinking wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I'm lost, how does it fit? How does this scenario allow for the cadaver alerts in the apartment?
Here are two very plausible suggestions
1) The dogs didn't arrive for another three months, nobody said a body was in there on May 3
2) The cadaverine was planted in the hope of obtaining a confession

These suggestions are possible, they don't seem very plausible to me - but that's just my opinion :)

by StraightThinking 24.10.13 21:22

candyfloss wrote:Planted by whom, and from where did they get it? I assume you mean the PJ.

I didn't say that definitely happened - I gave another possible scenario too. But I'm sure you are aware that police have been known to doctor evidence to extract confessions

by Rufus T 24.10.13 21:27

Châtelaine wrote:
Sockpuppet wrote:[...]This is the statement from an independent witness that has me convinced that Kate discovered that Madeleine was dead, when the search to find her had already begun. Blind panic sets in.[/font][/color]
***
It might have been the "real thing" ... She knew she was dead, was planned to be "removed" [abducted], went to see her one last time and found she'd been "taken" already ... Just speculation on my part.

Châtelaine, this seems very plausible, it would be very traumatic to think you were going to see your child one last time only to discover they had taken her.

by Sockpuppet 24.10.13 21:39

Rufus T wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
Sockpuppet wrote:[...]This is the statement from an independent witness that has me convinced that Kate discovered that Madeleine was dead, when the search to find her had already begun. Blind panic sets in.[/font][/color]
***
It might have been the "real thing" ... She knew she was dead, was planned to be "removed" [abducted], went to see her one last time and found she'd been "taken" already ... Just speculation on my part.
Châtelaine, this seems very plausible, it would be very traumatic to think you were going to see your child one last time only to discover they had taken her.

Not saying that it isn't plausible, but if we are assuming that there was a pre-planned staged abduction, the planning must have been very poor to allow Kate to discover this fact in this way. Surely you would want everything to go by an agreed script. Not telling the mother of the child about the removal, and then letting her go to the apartment by herself to discover it, would surely cause havoc to your well-made plans.

by Guest 24.10.13 21:42

StraightThinking wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Planted by whom, and from where did they get it? I assume you mean the PJ.
I didn't say that definitely happened - I gave another possible scenario too. But I'm sure you are aware that police have been known to doctor evidence to extract confessions

To plant cadaver scent..........and how would they have looked if Madeleine was found? It would be a very dodgy thing to do don't you think.

by Casey5 24.10.13 21:47

The big problem with a genuine accidental death imo is there would be no need of a cover up even if Madeleine died before the McCanns got home and they just didn't bother checking on the kids.
Kate certainly doesn't mind admitting that she nearly didn't go into the bedroom on the last check because the kids were quiet. So, if Madeleine had fallen say from the sofa then she could have been "found" the next day and the McCanns would have got loads of sympathy and it would have been finished.
But that scenario must not have happened so maybe the McCanns were covering up for a sedation which would have been seen at an autopsy, different kettle of fish in that they could have been blamed for Madeleine dying as a result of this. They would be in a good position, knowledge wise, being doctors to be able to come up with some plausible story surely.
Whatever happened though they can't deny their guilt because when you have children I'm afraid "me time" has to wait. The guilt is showing on their faces now or is it fear.

by Guest 24.10.13 21:51

Châtelaine wrote:
Sockpuppet wrote:[...]This is the statement from an independent witness that has me convinced that Kate discovered that Madeleine was dead, when the search to find her had already begun. Blind panic sets in.[/font][/color]
***
It might have been the "real thing" ... She knew she was dead, was planned to be "removed" [abducted], went to see her one last time and found she'd been "taken" already ... Just speculation on my part.

That is a scenario that has crossed my mind once or twice too, it is a possibility.

by StraightThinking 24.10.13 21:53

candyfloss wrote:To plant cadaver scent..........and how would they have looked if Madeleine was found? It would be a very dodgy thing to do don't you think.

But you would only do it if you were convinced she was dead but couldn't prove it

It's an uncomfortable thing to say, but there are bad cops as well as good cops

One of the main themes on this thread is that an entire family of five, with no obvious history of being compulsive liars, have invented the Smithman sighting to help a minor acquaintance. A cop planting evidence is a much more believable situation, and it's something that nobody can rule out given that everyone else in this case seems to be under suspicion of being unreliable, untruthful or corrupt.

But maybe it wasn't planted, it was real. If the dogs can react to a car that wasn't hired until weeks after her disappearance, who's to say the body didn't go from its hiding place back into the flat on the way to the car?

by Sockpuppet 24.10.13 21:58

Casey5 wrote:The big problem with a genuine accidental death imo is there would be no need of a cover up even if Madeleine died before the McCanns got home and they just didn't bother checking on the kids.
Kate certainly doesn't mind admitting that she nearly didn't go into the bedroom on the last check because the kids were quiet. So, if Madeleine had fallen say from the sofa then she could have been "found" the next day and the McCanns would have got loads of sympathy and it would have been finished.
But that scenario must not have happened so maybe the McCanns were covering up for a sedation which would have been seen at an autopsy, different kettle of fish in that they could have been blamed for Madeleine dying as a result of this. They would be in a good position, knowledge wise, being doctors to be able to come up with some plausible story surely.
Whatever happened though they can't deny their guilt because when you have children I'm afraid "me time" has to wait. The guilt is showing on their faces now or is it fear.

Madeleine being sedated and there being an accidental death are not mutually exclusive.

If she had been sedated and died accidentally while her parents were out dining and drinking, that would seem to me to be a pretty good motivation to conceal the body - to avoid prison time and ruined careers. I'm not saying that that is what *I* would have done, but is maybe what *they* did. I have no idea. It is only a hypothesis.

There seems to be quite a lot of indications that sedatives had been given, at least to the twins. Fiona Payne's statement draws attention to the way Kate kept checking the twins' breathing. They didn't wake up despite all the screaming. And in her book, Kate suspects that the abductor sedated them, despite not relaying these suspicions to the police, or requesting that the twins be taken to a hospital immediately. Strange behaviour for an anaesthetist who suspected that unknown chemicals had been given to her two year old children. And if there was no abductor then who did the sedating ...

Madeleine may well have woken despite the sedation, climbed up the sofa, and fell. The sedation may have even contributed to her not surviving the fall.

I'm not saying that this *did* happen. But it is certainly possible.

by Guest 24.10.13 22:01

StraightThinking wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I'm lost, how does it fit? How does this scenario allow for the cadaver alerts in the apartment?
Here are two very plausible suggestions
1) The dogs didn't arrive for another three months, nobody said a body was in there on May 3
2) The cadaverine was planted in the hope of obtaining a confession

***
You've been reading too many detective stories ... No offense meant ...

by StraightThinking 24.10.13 22:03

Châtelaine wrote: No offense meant ...

No but I was offended

by Lance De Boils 24.10.13 22:04

Châtelaine wrote:
Sockpuppet wrote:[...]This is the statement from an independent witness that has me convinced that Kate discovered that Madeleine was dead, when the search to find her had already begun. Blind panic sets in.[/font][/color]
***
It might have been the "real thing" ... She knew she was dead, was planned to be "removed" [abducted], went to see her one last time and found she'd been "taken" already ... Just speculation on my part.

I have postulated that previously elsewhere.

by stillsloppingout 24.10.13 22:05

Sockpuppet wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
Sockpuppet wrote:[...]This is the statement from an independent witness that has me convinced that Kate discovered that Madeleine was dead, when the search to find her had already begun. Blind panic sets in.[/font][/color]
***
It might have been the "real thing" ... She knew she was dead, was planned to be "removed" [abducted], went to see her one last time and found she'd been "taken" already ... Just speculation on my part.
I've considered that, but I have difficulty with Kate going to the Tapas as if nothing had happened to her daughter, and then screaming and becoming emotional enough to need to be restrained later. I firmly believe that the scream was the moment she discovered her daughter's death.

If she already knew Maddy was dead, why would she scream like that when they were attempting to stage an abduction? Surely she would just draw unwanted attention, seriously damage their chances of getting away with it.

IMO She screamed because she found her dead . [ i used to think she threw her against a wall in a fit of rage but no ] Gerry had to restrain ,her because she was about to go and call the authorities . Hence the bruising
Gerry whilst restraining Kate , said they would be all fooked if they reported it to the Police [ due to sedating the Kid's ] and from that moment the lie was born .

MR redwood SY PJ what are you waiting for .

PS if Gerry was seen carrying the child ,and i am starting to now think it was him [ because he averted eye contact and did not speak allegedly !! ] it is because removing Maddie from the apartment was the best worst option . He was unlucky he was spotted . .... next stop with Maddie the CHURCH [ the denomination, is a major factor but a lot of very religious people have got behind these two ] there is the big reason why this is being IMO covered up .

Just to elaborate . i feel Gerry turned up , or was met by the priest [ didn't he request one ] and it will not look good for the Catholic church , if they are found to have a priest's ,taking dead kid's off strangers and not reporting it or at least requesting the assailant do so . sorry to be blunt .

IM sure a learned forum member could add a few names that are religious , Blair , Kennedy , Brown .

Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Who is 'Smith-man'? (MULTIPLE CHOICE - You can vote for more than one answer)