Re: CRIMEWATCH ON BBC ***Part 1 DISCUSSION****

by Smokeandmirrors 17.10.13 11:33

plebgate wrote:
nobodythereeither wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.
I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.
I am pretty sure one of Mr. A's police witnesses at the libel trial said that all files had been released apart from those relating to named paedophiles.

Released DVD had 11,223 documents/pages. IIRC the original files had somewhere around 30,000 pieces. Tony, you'd know this, are you able to clarify?

by Smokeandmirrors 17.10.13 11:41

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
plebgate wrote:
nobodythereeither wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.
I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.
I am pretty sure one of Mr. A's police witnesses at the libel trial said that all files had been released apart from those relating to named paedophiles.
Released DVD had 11,223 documents/pages. IIRC the original files had somewhere around 30,000 pieces. Tony, you'd know this, are you able to clarify?

Just checked some old newspapers around the release date, 20,000 documents is sighted to be the TOTAL figure. My browser for some reason doesn't display web address/link otherwise would copy and paste it, although it's all really easy to find on McCannFiles.

by sofieellis 17.10.13 11:51

Something which Gerry said in Crimewatch and has said previously, confuses me. He insists that the younger a child is when they are abducted, the chance of them being found alive, is statistically higher. Does anyone know where he gets this often quoted statistic from?

I've done a quick search of cases I can remember where children were recovered alive, and most are older children/teenagers. Can anyone think of any other very young children, who were found years later?

Jaycee Dugard - abducted aged 11, found 18 years later.
Elizabeth Smart - abducted aged 14, found nine months later.

Shaun Hornbeck - abducted aged 11, found 4 years later, along with
William Benjamin "Ben" Ownby - abducted aged 13, found 4 days later.

Steven Staynor - abducted aged 7, escaped 7 years later along with
Timmy White abducted aged 5, escaped 2 weeks later.

Carlina White - abducted from hospital aged 19 days, discovered her true identity 23 years later.
Katie Beers - abducted aged 9, found 17 days later.
Natascha Kampusch - abducted aged 10, escaped 8 years later.
Natasha Ryan - "abducted" aged 14, found living secretly with her boyfriend 5 years later (they later married!!!)

Amanda Berry - abducted aged 16, found 10 years later, along with
Gina DeJesus - abducted aged 14, found 9 years later, with
Michelle Knight - abducted aged 21 (I know she wasn't a child, but she was held with the 2 above), found 11 years later.

Elisabeth Fritzl - abducted aged 18, found 24 years later, along with her children.
Steve Carter - reported missing by his father, when he was 6 months old. taken by his mother, who gave false names and handed him over to the authorities. Placed in an orphanage and later adopted. Discovered his true identity 35 years later!

Shasta Groene - abducted aged 8, found 7 weeks later ( her kidnapper had killed her parents and siblings)
Christi and Bobby Baskin - abducted aged 8 and 7 by their Grandfather, found 20 years later.
Alex Griffiths - abducted from hospital aged 2 days, found 17 days later.

Is there anyone I've missed out? I must be missing loads, if Gerry's statistic is correct.

by Guest 17.10.13 11:52

plebgate wrote:Thanks for the laugh CF, I thought it was a spoof headline also.

Snipped from the article:

"
The holidaymaker said the men made him feel uneasy.
The bare-chested pair were mentioned on BBC's Crimewatch on Monday, when a number of E-fits were released of fair-haired men seen around the Portuguese resort.

Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-police-hunt-men-2461285#ixzz2hyQ64400
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook"

the bare-chested pair.

Did either of them resemble Victoria Beckham?

by sallypelt 17.10.13 11:53

Re: CRIMEWATCH ON BBC ***DISCUSSION****

New post sofieellis Today at 11:51 am
.

Something which Gerry said in Crimewatch and has said previously, confuses me. He insists that the younger a child is when they are abducted, the chance of them being found alive, is statistically higher. Does anyone know where he gets this often quoted statistic from?"

Then why didn't the "abductor" take one of the twins?

by Guest 17.10.13 11:55

sofieellis wrote:Something which Gerry said in Crimewatch and has said previously, confuses me. He insists that the younger a child is when they are abducted, the chance of them being found alive, is statistically higher. Does anyone know where he gets this often quoted statistic from?

I've done a quick search of cases I can remember where children were recovered alive, and most are older children/teenagers. Can anyone think of any other very young children, who were found years later?

Jaycee Dugard - abducted aged 11, found 18 years later.
Elizabeth Smart - abducted aged 14, found nine months later.

Shaun Hornbeck - abducted aged 11, found 4 years later, along with
William Benjamin "Ben" Ownby - abducted aged 13, found 4 days later.

Steven Staynor - abducted aged 7, escaped 7 years later along with
Timmy White abducted aged 5, escaped 2 weeks later.

Carlina White - abducted from hospital aged 19 days, discovered her true identity 23 years later.
Katie Beers - abducted aged 9, found 17 days later.
Natascha Kampusch - abducted aged 10, escaped 8 years later.
Natasha Ryan - "abducted" aged 14, found living secretly with her boyfriend 5 years later (they later married!!!)

Amanda Berry - abducted aged 16, found 10 years later, along with
Gina DeJesus - abducted aged 14, found 9 years later, with
Michelle Knight - abducted aged 21 (I know she wasn't a child, but she was held with the 2 above), found 11 years later.

Elisabeth Fritzl - abducted aged 18, found 24 years later, along with her children.
Steve Carter - reported missing by his father, when he was 6 months old. taken by his mother, who gave false names and handed him over to the authorities. Placed in an orphanage and later adopted. Discovered his true identity 35 years later!

Shasta Groene - abducted aged 8, found 7 weeks later ( her kidnapper had killed her parents and siblings)
Christi and Bobby Baskin - abducted aged 8 and 7 by their Grandfather, found 20 years later.
Alex Griffiths - abducted from hospital aged 2 days, found 17 days later.

Is there anyone I've missed out? I must be missing loads, if Gerry's statistic is correct.

And just for the record, could any of these children be described as not having come to any harm?

by plebgate 17.10.13 12:01

so it was a pre-planned abduction and they were being watched - as has been said many, many times before over the last 6.5 years, if it was planned why didn't the abductor strike the night Mrs. Fenn heard the crying for over an hour.

Why would they plan it for that particular night?

by Daisy 17.10.13 12:17

sallypelt wrote:
nobodythereeither wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.
I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.
Information on the reason for the missing files:

With thanks to Albym :
As requested, the list of pages pulled from the files. I haven't done a full literal translation but essentially:
- Category A
relate to people identified during the inquiry whose possible link to the events is extremely unlikely (the most tenuous) and whose right to privacy would be infringed if their personal information were left on file (basically the 'pervy percy' list).
- Category B
relate to crimestopper data with respect to sightings, the TV program having guaranteed anonymity.
- Category C
relate to information from people - often criminals or having a criminal history - that was volunteered by them and they should not be put at risk for having come forward.

You will notice that in the DVD forum Volume-by-Volume Index there are occasional notes on missing pages. Those that I have checked relate to pages withdrawn in accordance with these instructions.

I've always wondered why CT's original statement & e-fit are missing from the files. It doesn't seem to fit with any of the catergories you've listed.

MISSING FROM FILES Carole Tranmer

Original interview and identikit not included in DVD:

In the interview of Carole Tranmer on 22nd April 2008, as recorded on DVD, reference is made more than once to a statement given by her to Leics police on 8 May 2007, and to an identikit that was created with the assistance of a police officer from Reading.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

by Guest 17.10.13 12:58

Thanks for providing that list sofieellis and welcome

I came across the Groene case by chance recently on YouTube and it will haunt me for a long time. The mother, partner and 13-year-old son who were killed at the scene were comparatively lucky compared to what happened to the two younger children who were taken away.

The only case I can think of that you don't mention is that of 4-year-old Simon Jones who was abducted from a park in the early 1990s and found alive 8 weeks later.

by gbwales 17.10.13 13:11

Something which Gerry said in Crimewatch and has said previously, confuses me. He insists that the younger a child is when they are abducted, the chance of them being found alive, is statistically higher. Does anyone know where he gets this often quoted statistic from?"

Perhaps those CEOP manuals he mysteriously acquired....?

by sofieellis 17.10.13 13:13

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Thanks for providing that list sofieellis and

I came across the Groene case by chance recently on YouTube and it will haunt me for a long time. The mother, partner and 13-year-old son who were killed at the scene were comparatively lucky compared to what happened to the two younger children who were taken away.

The only case I can think of that you don't mention is that of 4-year-old Simon Jones who was abducted from a park in the early 1990s and found alive 8 weeks later.

Thank you very much. Thank you for that case, I don't remember hearing of Simon before.

Oh and of course, I forgot Shannon Matthews - aged 10 when she disappeared, found 24 days later. Abduction was a hoax.

by Guest 17.10.13 13:17

I've found something about the Jones case.

http://www.hemeltoday.co.uk/news/local/mother-s-anger-as-prison-sentence-for-paedophile-cut-1-1193402

by nobodythereeither 17.10.13 13:22

plebgate wrote:
nobodythereeither wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.
I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.
I am pretty sure one of Mr. A's police witnesses at the libel trial said that all files had been released apart from those relating to named paedophiles.

Yes, that must be where I heard it from.

And I can't see that Leicestershire Police would have interviewed anybody (apart from the rogs requested by the Portuguese) so I'm not sure how these witness statements would not have been in the public domain, as if they were from fellow diners at the Tapas Bar surely those people wouldn't fit into any of the three categories mentioned?

ETA: Just seen your post, Daisy, thanks. Then I still don't understand. If Leicester Police did interview other people, surely those statements or whatever would have been sent to Portugal and included in their files? Or can nothing be added after the first tranche of files are released about a case in Portugal?

Just a bit bemused.

by MoonGoddess 17.10.13 13:56

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I've found something about the Jones case.

http://www.hemeltoday.co.uk/news/local/mother-s-anger-as-prison-sentence-for-paedophile-cut-1-1193402

That's scary.... that is literally on my doorstep!

by Pennypennypenny 17.10.13 13:58

Please correct me if I am wrong, but in the very early days of this case, didn't TM state on several occasions that they felt they were being watched or that the children were being watched? If this is the case it beggars belief that they went out night atfer night and left the poor mites alone.