LIBEL TRIAL DISCUSSION HERE

canada12 wrote:Can I ask if it's normal in Portugal for a libel trial to be heard in fits and starts like this, over a long period of time, not consecutive days? It just seems as if there's a lot of stopping and starting, instead of having it all go over a few days at the same time. Is this the usual way trials are conducted in Portugal or is it unusual? Just wondering if there's some deliberate stalling going on....? Thanks.

I agree it is truly astonishing, and not the way justice should be done for either side. Not only has this (final) trial lasted 8 days spread over more than two months, the whole case has lasted over 4 years 6 months.

The trial of Goncalo Amaral on criminal charges followed a similar pattern. The hearings began on 24 October 2008, and there were 7 days of hearings spread over 7 months before the final hearing and verdict in May 2009.

Tony Bennett wrote:

canada12 wrote:Can I ask if it's normal in Portugal for a libel trial to be heard in fits and starts like this, over a long period of time, not consecutive days? It just seems as if there's a lot of stopping and starting, instead of having it all go over a few days at the same time. Is this the usual way trials are conducted in Portugal or is it unusual? Just wondering if there's some deliberate stalling going on....? Thanks.

I agree it is truly astonishing, and not the way justice should be done for either side. Not only has this (final) trial lasted 8 days spread over more than two months, the whole case has lasted over 4 years 6 months.

The trial of Goncalo Amaral on criminal charges followed a similar pattern. The hearings began on 24 October 2008, and there were 7 days of hearings spread over 7 months before the final hearing and verdict in May 2009.

Tony, I have a gut feeling that this McCann saga will go the way of Rosa Parks. Not that there is any similarities, whatsoever, between the two cases, but the Rosa Parks case showed how far decent, honest people, who want justice can be pushed.

For the record, I haven't been involved in many court cases [Thank you lords - and have been trying to avoid other ones ever since], but none of them took less than 2 years with great intervals. And they were in the [highly efficient ...?] Netherlands.

Is it actually relevant how much money Amaral has made from the book? Isn't the case about whether or not what he said was libellous?

Because the judge has asked for this information does that mean that Amaral is may have to pay the McCanns this amount? 

Or is it possible that the judge can award the McCanns part of the money on account of the fact that the MM case can't be proven one way or another (yet)? Is it possible for the judge to order some kind of compromise?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2991.msg107153#msg107153


McCann v Gonçalo Amaral Libel Trial in Lisbon - Day 9 

Lisbon - Tuesday 19 Nov 2013

All lawyers are present. VCFilmes/Multimedia's lawyer is substituted by a lawyer who states that she took part in the Providência Cautelar (Injunction hearing).  Witnesses due to testify today are dismissed by defendants TVI, VC and Gonçalo Amaral and will no longer be required to give evidence.

The Judge starts the session by raising the issue of documents requested by the plaintiffs evidencing the value of royalties paid to Gonçalo Amaral. She reminds the Court that G&P's position is that the request is extemporaneous and illegal and that no other payment was received beyond that previously declared to the Court.  One such document relates to a request to Gonçalo Amaral to provide receipts X and Y specific to the period from 17 - 30 October 2008 and from 6 - 30 November 2009. The Judge adds that any others are of no consequence since G&P has proven that no other royalties were paid to Gonçalo Amaral.

The Judge reminds the Court of the principle that when a Party declares to another Party that a requested document does not exist or is not in their possession, the legal remedy is not for the pursuer to make a further request but to prove through whatever means that the respondent is being untruthful.  The Judge therefore grants a request by the plaintiffs that receipts be provided as previously requested since the defender has failed to produce the information sought.

TVI must provide an extract of accounts for the fiscal years 2008, 2009 and 2010 related to VCFilmes and VCMultimédia. They are given 10 days to produce the relevant documents.

The Judge omits partially a request concerning the accounts of VCFilmes, which are limited to the the period from the 7 February 2012 onwards. VC Filmes is also given 10 days to produce the documents.

The Judge reminds the Court that the request by the plaintiffs is related to the search of material facts in order that justice is done. However, she adds that the lawyer representing G&P should consider that if any of the documents requested in the process contain information unrelated to Gonçalo Amaral then that should be maintained apart for commercial and/or fiscal reasons. The defence is therefore authorised to present said documents in the judicial section in order to protect any commercially sensitive information, making only available that which relates to the process concerming the relationship between G&P and Gonçalo Amaral. G&P is given 10 days to respond to the request.

The Judge adds that G&P has already provided indications about the financial aspect of the publication of the book and about the number of books that have been sold.

The Judge finally confirms that the date of the next hearing will be on Wednesday 27 November 2013. The date for the final allegations will then be fixed.

End of session.

As I understand it, it's the plaintiffs [McCanns] who have asked this via their lawyer ID.
It is, though, again - as I understand it, normal procedure in a trial involving money claims, but it may [IMO] turn against them .... as IIRC Amaral hasn't been paid his royalties outside of Portugal yet ...

Châtelaine wrote:As I understand it, it's the plaintiffs [McCanns] who have asked this via their lawyer ID.
It is, though, again - as I understand it, normal procedure in a trial involving money claims, but  it may [IMO] turn against them .... as IIRC Amaral hasn't been paid his royalties outside of Portugal yet ...

 Yes, seems the McCanns have asked for the receipts and the Judge has just up held their request

TMH wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:As I understand it, it's the plaintiffs [McCanns] who have asked this via their lawyer ID.
It is, though, again - as I understand it, normal procedure in a trial involving money claims, but  it may [IMO] turn against them .... as IIRC Amaral hasn't been paid his royalties outside of Portugal yet ...

 Yes, seems the McCanns have asked for the receipts and the Judge has just up held their request

***
On another note: wouldn't it be nice if TM would finally be asked to provide receipts of the "fund" ... ?

Well, I'm only dreaming and will turn into the silken sheets now to continue that dream ..  

Châtelaine wrote:

TMH wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:As I understand it, it's the plaintiffs [McCanns] who have asked this via their lawyer ID.
It is, though, again - as I understand it, normal procedure in a trial involving money claims, but  it may [IMO] turn against them .... as IIRC Amaral hasn't been paid his royalties outside of Portugal yet ...

 Yes, seems the McCanns have asked for the receipts and the Judge has just up held their request

***
On another note: wouldn't it be nice if TM would finally be asked to provide receipts of the "fund" ... ?

Well, I'm only dreaming and will turn into the silken sheets now to continue that dream ..  

Ooh yes!!! 

I'm struggling to see why it is important if either 1 or 1,000,000 books were sold?

The way I see it, TM via ID have been able to seize his house [or part of it], his pension [or part of it], his royalties [IMO only the outstanding royalties abroad] and are looking for his Portuguese royalties, which is as much as ID stated: WHERE is the money ...? You see, they still count on cashing in on this trial. I"m dreaming occasionally. TM has the right to do that too. IMO, of course. I bid you all good night  

It might be favorable for Dr. Amaral anyway: ID has been suggesting all these years, and even at the start of this trial, that he is hiding money and profits. I guess after he produces whatever is left to produce he can tell her to stuff it.

(Sorry these lackeys of the McCanns bring out the worse in me.)

Transcript from Day 9 of the libel trial as posted on ukjustice forum and from which an be seen that Dr Amaral is not required to produce any further documents to the court or to the plaintiffs:

McCann v Gonçalo Amaral Libel Trial in Lisbon - Day 9
Lisbon - Tuesday 19 Nov 2013
All lawyers are present. VCFilmes/Multimedia's lawyer is substituted by a lawyer who states that
she took part in the Providência Cautelar (Injunction hearing). Witnesses due to testify today are
dismissed by defendants TVI, VC and Gonçalo Amaral and will no longer be required to give
evidence.
The Judge starts the session by raising the issue of documents requested by the plaintiffs
evidencing the value of royalties paid to Gonçalo Amaral. She reminds the Court that G&P's
position is that the request is extemporaneous and illegal and that no other payment was
received beyond that previously declared to the Court. One such document relates to a request
to Gonçalo Amaral to provide receipts X and Y specific to the period from 17 - 30 October 2008
and from 6 - 30 November 2009. The Judge adds that any others are of no consequence since
G&P has proven that no other royalties were paid to Gonçalo Amaral.
The Judge reminds the Court of the principle that when a Party declares to another Party that a
requested document does not exist or is not in their possession, the legal remedy is not for the
pursuer to make a further request but to prove through whatever means that the respondent is
being untruthful. The Judge therefore grants a request by the plaintiffs that receipts be provided
as previously requested since the defender has failed to produce the information sought.
TVI must provide an extract of accounts for the fiscal years 2008, 2009 and 2010 related to
VCFilmes and VCMultimédia. They are given 10 days to produce the relevant documents.
The Judge omits partially a request concerning the accounts of VCFilmes, which are limited to the
the period from the 7 February 2012 onwards. VC Filmes is also given 10 days to produce the
documents.
The Judge reminds the Court that the request by the plaintiffs is related to the search of material
facts in order that justice is done. However, she adds that the lawyer representing G&P should
consider that if any of the documents requested in the process contain information unrelated to
Gonçalo Amaral then that should be maintained apart for commercial and/or fiscal reasons. The
defence is therefore authorised to present said documents in the judicial section in order to
protect any commercially sensitive information, making only available that which relates to the
process concerming the relationship between G&P and Gonçalo Amaral. G&P is given 10 days to
respond to the request.
The Judge adds that G&P has already provided indications about the financial aspect of the
publication of the book and about the number of books that have been sold.
The Judge finally confirms that the date of the next hearing will be on Wednesday 27 November
2013. The date for the final allegations will then be fixed.
End of session.

Am I alone in finding it remarkable that only one UK tabloid has reported the McCanns' spin of Tuesday's court proceedings? 

It seems to me the absence of documentation covering a total of c37 days in 2008 and 2009 is a matter which the plaintiffs would have been aware of some considerable time ago, in which case it's probable Izzy was specifically instructed to make this request on the 19th to provide opportunity for a creative account of the day's events to be fed to the media. 

As TM weren't to know the defence intended to dismiss those witnesses who were scheduled to appear, their canonball has landed like an ineffective damp squib far short of the target.  

I wonder what they've planned for the 27th, but I doubt it will extend to both McCanns appearing in Lisbon.

I LOVE the expression "damp squid". It is SO visual

I could translate that to Dutch or French, but I won't because they would be staring at me and wonder whether I'd lost it...

Châtelaine wrote:I LOVE the expression "damp squid". It is SO visual  

I could translate that to Dutch or French, but I won't because they would be staring at me and wonder whether I'd lost it...

Oh please tell us Châtelaine ! I could so often use that phrase here in France and I'll be travelling to Holland early next year. You never know when these things can come in useful.  If you don't, I'll have to go and look them up myself, you've got me interested.  

bobbin wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:I LOVE the expression "damp squid". It is SO visual  

I could translate that to Dutch or French, but I won't because they would be staring at me and wonder whether I'd lost it...

Oh please tell us Châtelaine ! I could so often use that phrase here in France and I'll be travelling to Holland early next year. You never know when these things can come in useful.  If you don't, I'll have to go and look them up myself, you've got me interested.  

***
Sorry, Bobbin, I just noticed that I've always read this expression as being a "damp squid" whereas the expression is a "damp squib". So instead of a wet piece of fireworks, I read it as a damp octopussy ......

Anyway, if you're still interested, the real translation in Dutch would then be "een nat rotje" instead of "een vochtige inktvis" .... I don't know whether to laugh or cry now ...

Whereabouts are you in France? PM me, if you like.

I always marvel at and admire the command of the English language by those of us whose second language it is -and would never dream of mocking anyone's phrases etc, but I must admit that a "damp squid" had me laughing. Thanks -I needed a laugh.

Penfold wrote:I always marvel at and admire the command of the English language by those of us whose second language it is -and would never dream of mocking anyone's phrases etc, but I must admit that a "damp squid" had me laughing. Thanks -I needed a laugh.

***
You're most welcome to laugh at me, Penfold  
To be honest [sorry, Kate] , I had a big laugh at it myself too.
Having said that, I am still in favour of my image of a damp squid. And I will u-u-use it ....

aquila wrote:The Lisbon libel trial resumes on 27th November. That's Wednesday of this coming week. Remember that this libel trial is something that has taken around four years to bring to court and the outcome may take a little while longer BUT it is in a court of law, it is being heard, it will be judged. A positive outcome in this libel suit is probably more important to the McCanns than it is to Goncalo Amaral. If GA loses he loses. He'll live to fight another day. If TM lose then they lose more than money.

Just my opinion of course.

An acute observation aquila, and for me, it brings a positive note. We need encouragement to stay the journey.  

bobbin wrote:

aquila wrote:The Lisbon libel trial resumes on 27th November. That's Wednesday of this coming week. Remember that this libel trial is something that has taken around four years to bring to court and the outcome may take a little while longer BUT it is in a court of law, it is being heard, it will be judged. A positive outcome in this libel suit is probably more important to the McCanns than it is to Goncalo Amaral. If GA loses he loses. He'll live to fight another day. If TM lose then they lose more than money.

Just my opinion of course.

An acute observation aquila, and for me, it brings a positive note. We need encouragement to stay the journey.  

***
May I join you ... ?  

bobbin wrote:

aquila wrote:The Lisbon libel trial resumes on 27th November. That's Wednesday of this coming week. Remember that this libel trial is something that has taken around four years to bring to court and the outcome may take a little while longer BUT it is in a court of law, it is being heard, it will be judged. A positive outcome in this libel suit is probably more important to the McCanns than it is to Goncalo Amaral. If GA loses he loses. He'll live to fight another day. If TM lose then they lose more than money.

Just my opinion of course.

An acute observation aquila, and for me, it brings a positive note. We need encouragement to stay the journey.  

People need encouragement and hope Amaral wins the trial? I thought this was about hoping for Madeleine to be found. Some would probably not be very happy if she was and her parents had nothing to do with her disappearance.