What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

by **PeterMac** 30.01.13 16:46

What was Kate actually “doing” in the apartment for all that time

Gerry McCann Statement 10th May 2007

Half and hour later, without anything to remark, it being 22h03, he again alerted KATE that it was time to check the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, having entered through the back door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her taking so long, and, at the moment the deponent prepared to get up and to check why she was taking so long, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the entire house.

22:03 - - - Plus 1 minute walk to little gate
22:04 - - - Plus 20 seconds climb stairs, open patio door, go to children’s room
22:04.20 - - - Plus 2 seconds for door to slam, look in see M not there
22:04.22 - - - Plus 5 seconds look into parent’s room and bathroom
22:04.27 - - - Plus 1 minute dash round apartment opening wardrobes,
22:05.27 - - - Plus 5 seconds dash down stairs
22:05.32 - - - Plus 20 seconds dash back to Tapas
22:05.52

This is completed in a little under three (3) minutes, even on these very generous timings.
Looking inside a wardrobe take almost no time at all.
A child is either there or it is not.
Ditto the bathroom. There is nowhere to hide.

There is very accurate timing by watch, like his 9:04 leaving the table for his visit.

Ten minutes is an enormous length of time. It is more than three times the length of time actually needed to do what she says she did.

So what was she doing ?

by Nina 30.01.13 16:55

PeterMac wrote:What was Kate actually “doing” in the apartment for all that time

Gerry McCann Statement 10th May 2007

Half and hour later, without anything to remark, it being 22h03, he again alerted KATE that it was time to check the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, having entered through the back door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her taking so long, and, at the moment the deponent prepared to get up and to check why she was taking so long, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the entire house.

22:03 - - - Plus 1 minute walk to little gate
22:04 - - - Plus 20 seconds climb stairs, open patio door, go to children’s room
22:04.20 - - - Plus 2 seconds for door to slam, look in see M not there
22:04.22 - - - Plus 5 seconds look into parent’s room and bathroom
22:04.27 - - - Plus 1 minute dash round apartment opening wardrobes,
22:05.27 - - - Plus 5 seconds dash down stairs
22:05.32 - - - Plus 20 seconds dash back to Tapas
22:05.52

This is completed in a little under three (3) minutes, even on these very generous timings.
Looking inside a wardrobe take almost no time at all.
A child is either there or it is not.
Ditto the bathroom. There is nowhere to hide.

There is very accurate timing by watch, like his 9:04 leaving the table for his visit.

Ten minutes is an enormous length of time. It is more than three times the length of time actually needed to do what she says she did.

So what was she doing ?

Well she certainly wasn't looking under the beds as she stated as they were all to the floor divans. And as she stated Madeleine wasn't 'cowering' in any of the wardrobes. In the children's room one of the wardrobes was blocked by a cot, so that only leaves one, and in their bedroom there were shelves in one that contained a pile of clothes, oh and a blue sports bag, that they didn't have dance

.

by **PeterMac** 30.01.13 18:09

Was she in fact opening the window, (fingerprint found) pulling up the shutters, scruffing up the bed across which garlic-man would have to walk, and setting it all up, but forgetting about the curtains which ought to have been across the bed and the wicker chair, according to the second and third version of that account ?
And taking so long, so as not to wake the sedated children.

by Ribisl 30.01.13 18:22

Sedating the twins to make sure they wouldn't be disturbed when the rest of T9 (minus DW) sprint up the road to 5a, enter through the open patio door and rummage through the apartment, leaving their greasy paw prints everywhere?

by Inspectorfrost 30.01.13 19:43

The curtains again, are all these three versions compatible?

KM statement 4th May
At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

Tapas Group joint statement 10th May
At this point, she notices that Madeleine is missing. She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtains and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the windows pushed open to the left as far as possible.

Madeleine Was Here C4 documentary, May 2009
as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn,… were closed, … whoosh … It was like a gust of wind, kinda, just blew them open

by Nina 30.01.13 19:55

Inspectorfrost wrote:The curtains again, are all these three versions compatible?

KM statement 4th May
At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

Tapas Group joint statement 10th May
At this point, she notices that Madeleine is missing. She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtains and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the windows pushed open to the left as far as possible.

Madeleine Was Here C4 documentary, May 2009
as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn,… were closed, … whoosh … It was like a gust of wind, kinda, just blew them open

And then neatly tucked the curtain between the side of the bed and the wall, and the other neatly hung behind the chair spin

by Inspectorfrost 30.01.13 20:04

Nina have you not seen the film Paranormal Activity?
big grin

The wind does strange things.

ETA Then again maybe someone or the PJ put the curtain behind the bed and chair, who knows hey?

by Nina 30.01.13 20:07

Inspectorfrost wrote:Nina have you not seen the film Paranormal Activity?

The wind does strange things.

Tell me about it whacky

by Inspectorfrost 30.01.13 20:21

i still dont understand why they made such a big fuss of the shutters being opened from the outside when the back door was left open and if there was an abductor could have opened them from the inside hence the pully system keeping them UP as opposed to them not being able to stay up if opened from outside as demonstrated by Peter and Pats video

BTW PeterM KM said in some video it onky took her 36 secs or something to sprint walk it

As for looking under the beds, surely that must be a translation error or something as they were divans werent they? Not even a gerbil could get under a divan.Could she have meant looking under the cots?

by **PeterMac** 30.01.13 22:52

Inspectorfrost wrote:Could she have meant looking under the cots?

Not possible. I have two of the things here at the hotel. The "legs" are just stumps to keep the cot off the floor.
So Children's bedroom - wardrobe to check
Bathroom - ?
Parents' bedroom- wardrobe to check
Kitchen - cabinets 2/ 3/ 4/
Sitting area - behind sofa (aaah !)
And that is it.
There is nowhere else.
Unless, of course you advert to the possibility that the unlocked patio door could have been opened - in case of fire - and extend your search to the garden area.

In any event it could not take anywhere near ten minutes to do this. So the original question still stands.

by russiandoll 30.01.13 23:56

Did she check the washing machine? I am being serious, there was a case of a 4 yr old American girl who died after climbing inside a front- loading automatic.

[ and I bet those floor cupboards did not have the childproof locks no doubt used by the tapas lot at home. Hope they moved all the cleaning stuff to the wall cupboards].

Both reasons why you would never leave little ones unsupervised. Unless you were certain they could not come to harm and made sure they stayed asleep in your absence.

this was a group who had a delay at Faro over getting the right car safety seats upon arrival iirc? so safety= conscious?

by Guest 31.01.13 9:37

russiandoll wrote:Did she check the washing machine? I am being serious, there was a case of a 4 yr old American girl who died after climbing inside a front- loading automatic.

[ and I bet those floor cupboards did not have the childproof locks no doubt used by the tapas lot at home. Hope they moved all the cleaning stuff to the wall cupboards].

Both reasons why you would never leave little ones unsupervised. Unless you were certain they could not come to harm and made sure they stayed asleep in your absence.

this was a group who had a delay at Faro over getting the right car safety seats upon arrival iirc? so safety= conscious?

The washing machine and the shutters in their bedroom needed maintance work that week.. Coinsidence?
Lies is usually made of half truths.

by russiandoll 31.01.13 9:54

Moa, I was not even thinking about that maintenace..... I just thought after reading PeterMac's list...of where else could a child climb into/ hide.... and if you were a parent in panic you wouild check even the least likely places.

I immediately rejected the washer because of her size and then looked briefly on the net to see the god- awful links to toddlers mostly falling into top loaders but a couple of 3+ who had managed to climb into a front loading machine; this 4 yr old was accidentally shut in by a younger sibling...

I do not want to think any further than that, I was thinking along the lines of her being, due to her size, stuck in a position and unable to breathe properly. If I thought , however unlikely ,my child could be there, that would make me look for him or her in a panic. Not the first place that springs to mind, and it is a rarity for accidents, but they are documented to the point that on the net one hospital has done a statistical analysis of washing-machine injuries.
Horrific and thankfully a rarity....but possible.

[ btw I doubt these holiday lets have childproofed kitchens and I would not be surprised to find out that household cleaners were in the base units as usual. ]

p.s I am skeptical of the children having been left alone. I tend to think that Kate was doing what Gerry was supposed to do before the JW interruption. Setting the stage, and taking a few deep breaths to prep for her next lines in the drama, ......the calm before the storm.

by bobbin 31.01.13 10:17

russiandoll wrote:Moa, I was not even thinking about that maintenace..... I just thought after reading PeterMac's list...of where else could a child climb into/ hide.... and if you were a parent in panic you wouild check even the least likely places.

I immediately rejected the washer because of her size and then looked briefly on the net to see the god- awful links to toddlers mostly falling into top loaders but a couple of 3+ who had managed to climb into a front loading machine; this 4 yr old was accidentally shut in by a younger sibling...

I do not want to think any further than that, I was thinking along the lines of her being, due to her size, stuck in a position and unable to breathe properly. If I thought , however unlikely ,my child could be there, that would make me look for him or her in a panic. Not the first place that springs to mind, and it is a rarity for accidents, but they are documented to the point that on the net one hospital has done a statistical analysis of washing-machine injuries.
Horrific and thankfully a rarity....but possible.

[ btw I doubt these holiday lets have childproofed kitchens and I would not be surprised to find out that household cleaners were in the base units as usual. ]

p.s I am skeptical of the children having been left alone. I tend to think that Kate was doing what Gerry was supposed to do before the JW interruption. Setting the stage, and taking a few deep breaths to prep for her next lines in the drama, ......the calm before the storm.

Exactly, russiandoll. I would still like to re-read, or re-see that bit where I felt that JW had indicated, that he'd seen Gerry fumbling with the shutters.
Does anyone recall this bit, and if so, where can it be found. I have tried but not succeeded, but I must declare to being of the age of the 'technologically illiterate', so it does not mean it's not 'findable' just that I have not succeeded.

by russiandoll 31.01.13 19:22

What I meant re the washer : had Kate really been searching in a panic for a missing child, she would have looked in the machine and would have said so in her book imo.

In panic, when I thought one of my dogs was missing, just after I knew I had shut the front door after coming in with them from a walk..and could not see him, I did the following:

looked in the garden, even though I knew I had not come in and unlocked the back door.
looked upstairs, even though I knew he could neither open nor jump over the safety gate.

looked finally in the porch, where he had clearly decided after coming indoors, to settle on the cold tiled floor for a sleep, instead of going to his water bowl. I had shut him in there, and not searched there first, the obvious first place to look....because I could not hear any whining, something I thought he would do if he had been there.

Kate describes panic in her book . I am sure that because reason goes out of the window when panic sets in, despite it being unlikely Maddie would be in the machine, she would have looked anyway. Just to be absolutely sure.

I believe the stage was getting its finishing touches, by Kate who was also psych-ing herself up for her starring role in the drama.
Probably with the help of a few Hail Marys.

by Guest 31.01.13 19:57

Effing tosser is more Kate's mantra.

She must have hoped it'd be all right on the night as they say in the theatre but sadly it wasn't.

by Nina 31.01.13 20:23

Jean wrote:Effing tosser is more Kate's mantra.

She must have hoped it'd be all right on the night as they say in the theatre but sadly it wasn't.

She was maybe having a snifter of the NewZealand wine they had before going out, that is if they left any.

by Ange 31.01.13 23:17

Would anyone know where I could find/look for a statement or article (I think it was a newspaper interview) where KM, in the early days, said she knew immediately Maddie had been taken when she saw cuddlecat placed on a high shelf out of her reach? A shelf that must have removed itself from the wall and placed cc in the bed before the PJ arrived.

I know I definitely have this saved somewhere in my old comp, but don't have a clue where to begin to look now. Saying that, I'm going between reading through the mccann and pj files again, perhaps too quickly and not being patient enough. TIA.

by Guest 31.01.13 23:21

This topic might help.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3128-am-i-wrong-cuddle-cat-and-the-position-of-the-door-to-the-childrens-room

by Ange 01.02.13 0:02

I should have known to look here, thank you Jean. I cant be the only one who promises to call a halt at midnight, ok 1...2 am, check latest news no more than twice 'tomorrow' and absolutely NO trawling files weekends. And I break those promises constantly at the moment.

by Angelique 01.02.13 9:13

bobbin

Yes I too remember this account of GM fiddling with the shutter but not sure who said it.

As an aside, someone has questioned who was in the stroller that Jez was pushing around OC and it just made me wonder if it was too convenient that he was there at that particular time?

by Monty Heck 01.02.13 9:54

KMcC has absolutely and unequivocally dismissed in print and in interview the woke and wandered theory. She "knew immediately" that M had not left the apartment of her own accord because, for example she would not have closed the patio door or stair gate behind her. However, these are things that one is generally not "immediately" aware of in a moment of panic but rather conclusions one draws after a process of reasoning, and after considering and dismissing such possibilities.

If the children were being sedated to ensure a peaceful night for all, then that would be a sound basis for the assertion that KMcC "just knew" M had been taken as it would have been impossible for her to get up and look for mum and dad. I would think better of the McCs if they were in fact sedating the children before leaving them as there is something more considered and responsible about people with some expertise doing that than simply leaving very young children to potentially be upset or in danger for half an hour or so between checks. However, it would be impossible for there to be any admission of such a practice as there would be serious repercussions for those medics involved (if indeed any were as this is merely a theory).

I do wonder whether the "why didn't you come when we were crying" story was an attempt to disprove any theory about sedation because it proves the children were able to cry of an evening. So if KMcC did know immediately for this reason, what would be the point in "flying around the apartment" checking here or there and wasting a very precious 10 minutes before raising the alarm (or most likely considerably longer since G was getting worried and why would he be concerned after a mere 10 minute absence?) in a manner in which her 2 other children were placed in grave danger?

by Inspectorfrost 02.02.13 15:35

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html

MORGAN: You went down to tell Gerry straight away?

K. MCCANN: Yes. I just basically and quickly whisked around the apartment, like 15 seconds. I don't know why. In my head, I was just thinking if someone's been in and she's cowering somewhere I guess is why I did it. And then it just flew out through the back, down the stairs to the restaurant.

@Monty
What interesting points. Not forgetting that the other children were left behind after being sure there was an abduction.

PS That Piers Morgan interview contains several interesting things. One being that GM puts forward the possibility that previous holidaymakers that stayed in 5a over the years might have had a key. i can't begin to get my head around that one.

by **PeterMac** 02.02.13 15:48

Let's just put those on the same entry.

Inspectorfrost wrote:http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html
MORGAN: You went down to tell Gerry straight away?
K. MCCANN: Yes. I just basically and quickly whisked around the apartment, like 15 seconds. I don't know why. In my head, I was just thinking if someone's been in and she's cowering somewhere I guess is why I did it. And then it just flew out through the back, down the stairs to the restaurant.

Gerry McCann Statement 10th May 2007

Half and hour later, without anything to remark, it being 22h03, he again alerted KATE that it was time to check the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, having entered through the back door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her taking so long, and, at the moment the deponent prepared to get up and to check why she was taking so long, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the entire house.

by Nina 02.02.13 15:54

Inspectorfrost wrote:http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html

MORGAN: You went down to tell Gerry straight away?

K. MCCANN: Yes. I just basically and quickly whisked around the apartment, like 15 seconds. I don't know why. In my head, I was just thinking if someone's been in and she's cowering somewhere I guess is why I did it. And then it just flew out through the back, down the stairs to the restaurant.

@Monty
What interesting points. Not forgetting that the other children were left behind after being sure there was an abduction.

PS That Piers Morgan interview contains several interesting things. One being that GM puts forward the possibility that previous holidaymakers that stayed in 5a over the years might have had a key. i can't begin to get my head around that one.

Re the key...... It wasn't one you could just take to a shop and get another one cut, forget what the name of the key is but a very specific type, it is quite a unique shape, http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html about third way down.