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What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by tigger on 02.02.13 16:02

@Inspectorfrost wrote:http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html


MORGAN: You went down to tell Gerry straight away?

K. MCCANN: Yes. I just basically and quickly whisked around the apartment, like 15 seconds. I don't know why. In my head, I was just thinking if someone's been in and she's cowering somewhere I guess is why I did it. And then it just flew out through the back, down the stairs to the restaurant.

@Monty
What interesting points. Not forgetting that the other children were left behind after being sure there was an abduction.


PS That Piers Morgan interview contains several interesting things. One being that GM puts forward the possibility that previous holidaymakers that stayed in 5a over the years might have had a key. i can't begin to get my head around that one.

From the book - chapter "The Holiday":
[..] On Madeleine’s bed, the top right-hand corners of the covers were still turned over, forming a triangle. Cuddle Cat and her pink princess blanket were lying where they’d been when we’d kissed her goodnight. I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots where the twins slept on, oblivious, and looked out through the window. I’ve no idea what I expected to see there.
Refusing to acknowledge what I already knew, and perhaps automatically going into a well-practised medical-emergency mode, I quickly scoured the apartment to exclude all other possibilities, mentally ticking boxes that I knew, deep down, were already ticked. I checked the wardrobe in the children’s room. Unquote

Several points:
The description of the bed is accurate according to the photographs but it is clear that no one slept in it that night.
It seems that medical training also includes searching apartments. Something I didn't know.
The rest of the description doesn't warrant a 10 minute period for the search. Two minutes would have sufficed.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by bobbin on 02.02.13 16:08

@tigger wrote:
@Inspectorfrost wrote:http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html


MORGAN: You went down to tell Gerry straight away?

K. MCCANN: Yes. I just basically and quickly whisked around the apartment, like 15 seconds. I don't know why. In my head, I was just thinking if someone's been in and she's cowering somewhere I guess is why I did it. And then it just flew out through the back, down the stairs to the restaurant.

@Monty
What interesting points. Not forgetting that the other children were left behind after being sure there was an abduction.


PS That Piers Morgan interview contains several interesting things. One being that GM puts forward the possibility that previous holidaymakers that stayed in 5a over the years might have had a key. i can't begin to get my head around that one.

From the book - chapter "The Holiday":
[..] On Madeleine’s bed, the top right-hand corners of the covers were still turned over, forming a triangle. Cuddle Cat and her pink princess blanket were lying where they’d been when we’d kissed her goodnight. I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots where the twins slept on, oblivious, and looked out through the window. I’ve no idea what I expected to see there.
Refusing to acknowledge what I already knew, and perhaps automatically going into a well-practised medical-emergency mode, I quickly scoured the apartment to exclude all other possibilities, mentally ticking boxes that I knew, deep down, were already ticked. I checked the wardrobe in the children’s room. Unquote

Several points:
The description of the bed is accurate according to the photographs but it is clear that no one slept in it that night.
It seems that medical training also includes searching apartments. Something I didn't know.
The rest of the description doesn't warrant a 10 minute period for the search. Two minutes would have sufficed.

Nice to see you back tigger.
re the above in red, which window is Kate talking about.
The one that had been broken into, with the shutters jemmied, the one with the curtains pulled closed so that the wind could poof them open, or the one which had been kept closed and shuttered all week. I'm a bit confused here.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by PeterMac on 02.02.13 16:11

@tigger wrote:
From the book - chapter "The Holiday":
[..] On Madeleine’s bed, the top right-hand corners of the covers were still turned over, forming a triangle. Cuddle Cat and her pink princess blanket were lying where they’d been when we’d kissed her goodnight. I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots where the twins slept on, oblivious, and looked out through the window. I’ve no idea what I expected to see there.
Refusing to acknowledge what I already knew, and perhaps automatically going into a well-practised medical-emergency mode, I quickly scoured the apartment to exclude all other possibilities, mentally ticking boxes that I knew, deep down, were already ticked. I checked the wardrobe in the children’s room. Unquote

Several points:
The description of the bed is accurate according to the photographs but it is clear that no one slept in it that night.
It seems that medical training also includes searching apartments. Something I didn't know.
The rest of the description doesn't warrant a 10 minute period for the search. Two minutes would have sufficed.
I still love the use of the word "dashed" over to the second bed. The room is tiny, no more than ten feet across, with two travel cots in the space between the beds. You couldn't "dash" anywhere. Two paces would be sufficient.
Still it was a version of the truth . . .

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by tigger on 02.02.13 16:19

Bobbin wrote:
re the above in red, which window is Kate talking about.
The one that had been broken into, with the shutters jemmied, the one with the curtains pulled closed so that the wind could poof them open, or the one which had been kept closed and shuttered all week. I'm a bit confused here. Unquote

This is what she says - it's not clear that she is looking through an open window, but there was only one window in that room. (although whilst MO checked earlier there were two)
''My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no! On Madeleine’s bed, the top right-hand corners of the covers were still turned over, forming a triangle. Cuddle Cat and her pink princess blanket were lying where they’d been when we’d kissed her goodnight. I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots where the twins slept on, oblivious, and looked out through the window.'' unquote

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by joyce1938 on 02.02.13 18:06

The next question is ,where did the pink blanket go?no one seems to know as far as i have heard ,maybe someone can tell me ?joyce1938

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Inspectorfrost on 02.02.13 18:27

@Peter

There does seem to be a discrepancy between GM and KM statements

here KM says it was between 10 and 15 seconds

at 20.30


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Similar to KM and DPs regarding that visit! 30 seconds outside the door or three to five minutes INSIDE the living room!


@Nina

Re the key, not only can't it be cut, but I have much trouble trying to follow GM's train of thought from someone stayed in 5a e.g. five years ago to them absconding with said key to then using it or giving it to someone who went to burgle or abduct a child. The possibilities being asked to consider are ludicrous IMO.

@Joyce

I didn't know Madeleine's blanket had gone missing. I know some pink and orange blanket was given to dog handlers to trace her scent, nothing in the files to say if it was or wasnt given back.


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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by worriedmum on 02.02.13 18:41

I am surprised that Kate doesn't say if she had to stand on the bed if she looked out of the window. Even if it was a child's bed, say 2'6'' or 3' wide, you would need very very long arms to look out of the window without standing on the bed. And a long neck. IMO.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Inspectorfrost on 02.02.13 18:53

@worriedmum wrote:I am surprised that Kate doesn't say if she had to stand on the bed if she looked out of the window. Even if it was a child's bed, say 2'6'' or 3' wide, you would need very very long arms to look out of the window without standing on the bed. And a long neck. IMO.

Yes you would think she would, given the incredibly detailed descriptions of everything second by second. Obviously she walked around the bed, the one where the closed but whooshed flimsy curtains in the gusty wind lodged themselves behind the bed instead of on top of it. i dont know though. maybe its possible that the curtains when closed and behind the bed in the first place partially remained behind the bed, once wooshed open, only they were not crumpled but straight. Thats a clever wind.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by PeterMac on 02.02.13 20:23

And let us never forget the signed statement.
From Kate’s police statement, dated 4th May 2007
“At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the
apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and
immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely
open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open,
while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did
.”

in 2009 Kate gave an interview as part of a programme which was recorded and
can be seen on YouTube.
At 1:15 she says
“I did my check about ten o’clock and went in through the sliding patio doors, and I
just stood actually, and I thought, uh, all quiet. And to be honest, I might have been
tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door
where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it.
I went to close it to about here, and then as I got to here, it suddenly . . . slammed,
and as I opened it, it was then, that I just thought I’ll just look at the children.
I see Sean and Amelie in the cot . . . .
I was looking at Madeleine’s bed which is here, and it was dark and I was looking
and I was thinking is that, is that Madeleine or is that the bedding and I couldn't
quite make her out, and it sounds really stupid now, but at the time I was just
thinking I didn’t want to put the light on because I didn't want to wake them, and
literally as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn,
[demonstrates with both forearms together] that were closed,
“wheesh’ like a
gust of wind kind of blew them open.

Fully open AND fully closed.
'p' and 'not p' as the logicians would say. You can't do it. It is either / or.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Inspectorfrost on 02.02.13 20:41

There was never ever any mention of the curtains being closed at 10 pm until they were wooshed by the wind In 2009 when they made their channel 4 documentary. kate says she found them open and their joint statement of 10th May says she ran over and opened them!

Before then posters on forums were asking if madeleine was abducted at around 9.15 pm by jane tanners man, as has always been asserted by the mccanns, how did matt oldfield see the curtains closed at 9.30pm and Kate see them open at 10 pm, ie who opened them in between 9.30 and 10 pm
big grin

or did the abductor not open them at all?

Oh it was the wind.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by spring flower on 02.02.13 20:41

Years ago my 2 year old wandered out into front garden when we were in the back garden. When I realised he was gone there was no logical analysis of the situation, I just screamed his name as loud as I could, blind panic, the way you would to stop a child stepping in front of a car. It would have been the same had I been in a room with sleeping children. What is more, 14 years later I remember every second, where I was when I shouted, the route I took. I would not need to keep changing my story.

I know Luz and I know the road in question. It is very quiet even in high season at night. I would not have left children alone. No way can the apartment be adequately supervised from the tapas bar. This cannot be responsible parenting.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Inspectorfrost on 02.02.13 20:48

@spring flower wrote:Years ago my 2 year old wandered out into front garden when we were in the back garden. When I realised he was gone there was no logical analysis of the situation, I just screamed his name as loud as I could, blind panic, the way you would to stop a child stepping in front of a car. It would have been the same had I been in a room with sleeping children. What is more, 14 years later I remember every second, where I was when I shouted, the route I took. I would not need to keep changing my story.

I know Luz and I know the road in question. It is very quiet even in high season at night. I would not have left children alone. No way can the apartment be adequately supervised from the tapas bar. This cannot be responsible parenting.

The flat from the bar was 200 yards or so, out of ear and eyeshot so ofcourse could never have been supervised, unless they had binoculars on it all the time and sound equipment, its pathetic, and insulting everyonesintelligence,even if it could have been seen in small parts, the front door entrance and the kids bedroom was totally out of sight UNLIKE what GM's sister said on tv that they had a direct line of sight to the kids, now did she make that up or was that LIE fed to her

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Hobs on 02.02.13 22:26

''My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no! On Madeleine’s bed, the top right-hand corners of the covers were still turned over, forming a triangle. Cuddle Cat and her pink princess blanket were lying where they’d been when we’d kissed her goodnight. I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots where the twins slept on, oblivious, and looked out through the window.''

There we have it, writ clear as day.

The perfect emotions in the perfect place in the story, as a story is what it is.

Note also the dropped pronouns in relation to the emotions.

If she can't take ownership of them, we can't do it for her.

What is also of interest is the description of the bed.

A 3 yr old toddlers allegedly slept in it, From experience of sprog sitting my niece and nephew at that age tells me there is no way the bed would have remained perfectly made with a neat little corner turned over.

The bedding would be all over the place especially since it is likely that unsedated children wake up and twist and turn.

Sedated children however move very little. telling i think.

Cuddle cat also seems to have the powers or teleportation moving from the bed to the shelf where kate knew immediately she had been abducted as it was out her reach.

Also if we go with the alleged abduction as claimed and looking at the time frame of a minute or so , are we expected to believe the abductor came in sedated the children, hid whilst gerry was there and then opened the window and shutter( without making a sound in a quiet street unlike any metal shutter made) grabbed Madeleine made the bed adding in the neat little triangle, climbed out the window without leaving a mark or left the way he came in via the patio door (thus negating the palaver with the window and shutters) and hurrying away across the top of the street where gerry and Jez are standing talking and jane walking invisibly past them who spotted him carryig Madeleine and who then said nothing allegedly till after they had written the timeline about seeing the abductor (how did they know then to add him to the timeline if she hadn't told anyone?)

The abduction story as claimed did not happen, could never have happened and would be pysically impossible to have happened.

Go back to the drawing board mccanns and this time , try and come up with something that is remotely believable. This isn't even good enough for a 3rd grade fairy tale.

The problem with a lie is remembering who you told what and when.

the truth can be told forwards backwards and sideways as it comes from experiential memory, something that has been experienced.

A lie does not come from experienced memory thus there is no solid basis to support it.

As it is imaginary, made up, it will change everytime it is told, additions are made to bolster the story, extra details used to convince the listener of the truth, except it weakens the statement.

Important facts get ommitted or changed, the story at the start says one thing, the story days, weeks and even years downthe line will have barely any similarities.

The only things the stories at the start and to date tha have stayed consistent are Madeleine is missing, they were getting pissed in the tapas bar and it took place in Portugal.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by PeterMac on 02.02.13 23:36

Good one. If I may . . .
@Hobs wrote:''My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no! On Madeleine’s bed, the top right-hand corners of the covers were still turned over, forming a triangle. Cuddle Cat and her pink princess blanket were lying where they’d been when we’d kissed her goodnight. I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots where the twins slept on, oblivious, and looked out through the window.''

There we have it, writ clear as day.
The perfect emotions in the perfect place in the story, as a story is what it is. Exactly
Note also the dropped pronouns in relation to the emotions.
If she can't take ownership of them, we can't do it for her.
What is also of interest is the description of the bed. Not only a description. We can examine the photos of the bed, and judge for ourselves
A 3 yr old toddlers allegedly slept in it, From experience of sprog sitting my niece and nephew at that age tells me there is no way the bed would have remained perfectly made with a neat little corner turned over.
The bedding would be all over the place especially since it is likely that unsedated children wake up and twist and turn.
Sedated children however move very little. telling i think. The McCanns eventually got round to saying they believed the children HAD been sedated. That was after initial denials, then acceptance, then more denials and threats to sue, and then GM starting into put it into the public domain that it Might be possible, then to Edgar and Co with their extraordinary Victorian melodrama of Chloroform, and finally Kate's statement. Then, in the book, we learned that she had known or suspected right from the start. She is a trained anaesthetist of course. But had then failed to do any thing appropriate in a medical sense. Neither had Fiona P. Also a qualified anaesthetist. Both should be struck off by the GMC for that alone.

Cuddle cat also seems to have the powers or teleportation moving from the bed to the shelf where kate knew immediately she had been abducted as it was out her reach. Ah, yes. The shelf that was mysteriously removed before the photos were taken !

Also if we go with the alleged abduction as claimed and looking at the time frame of a minute or so , are we expected to believe the abductor came in sedated the children, hid whilst gerry was there and then opened the window and shutter( without making a sound in a quiet street unlike any metal shutter made) grabbed Madeleine made the bed adding in the neat little triangle, climbed out the window without leaving a mark or left the way he came in via the patio door (thus negating the palaver with the window and shutters) and hurrying away across the top of the street where gerry and Jez are standing talking and jane walking invisibly past them who spotted him carryig Madeleine and who then said nothing allegedly till after they had written the timeline about seeing the abductor (how did they know then to add him to the timeline if she hadn't told anyone?)
Short answer YES. You are supposed to believe that. If you do not, Carter-Ruck will creep into your bedroom and put a bat up your nightdress. They are in the process of sending an old man to prison for Treasonable and Heretical beliefs like this. You have been warned.

The abduction story as claimed did not happen, could never have happened and would be physically impossible to have happened. See above !

Go back to the drawing board mccanns and this time, try and come up with something that is remotely believable. Many have tried. All have failed. This isn't even good enough for a 3rd grade fairy tale.
The problem with a lie is remembering who you told what and when. Unless you write it down. In which case it is best to stick to just the one version !
the truth can be told forwards backwards and sideways as it comes from experiential memory, something that has been experienced.
A lie does not come from experienced memory thus there is no solid basis to support it. Does a quarter of a million pounds, two senior solicitors, a junior barrister and a Silk count as "a solid basis" ?
As it is imaginary, made up, it will change everytime it is told, additions are made to bolster the story, extra details used to convince the listener of the truth, except it weakens the statement. Or persuades more children and pensioners to donate to the "Fund"
Important facts get omitted or changed, the story at the start says one thing, the story days, weeks and even years down the line will have barely any similarities. How dare you ?The most important thing is the wealth, the abundance, the plethora of real tangible and credible evidence that there was an abduction. Kate's evidence. "I knew. I knew. Surely now you are convinced ! If not please pack an overnight bag and line up behind Mr Bennett."

The only things the stories at the start and to date that have stayed consistent are Madeleine is missing, they were getting pissed in the tapas bar and it took place in Portugal. Those are the Fact of the Case, M'Lud.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Newintown on 03.02.13 1:13

@Hobs wrote:''My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no! On Madeleine’s bed, the top right-hand corners of the covers were still turned over, forming a triangle. Cuddle Cat and her pink princess blanket were lying where they’d been when we’d kissed her goodnight. I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots where the twins slept on, oblivious, and looked out through the window.''

There we have it, writ clear as day.

The perfect emotions in the perfect place in the story, as a story is what it is.

Note also the dropped pronouns in relation to the emotions.

If she can't take ownership of them, we can't do it for her.

What is also of interest is the description of the bed.

A 3 yr old toddlers allegedly slept in it, From experience of sprog sitting my niece and nephew at that age tells me there is no way the bed would have remained perfectly made with a neat little corner turned over.

The bedding would be all over the place especially since it is likely that unsedated children wake up and twist and turn.

Sedated children however move very little. telling i think.

Cuddle cat also seems to have the powers or teleportation moving from the bed to the shelf where kate knew immediately she had been abducted as it was out her reach.

Also if we go with the alleged abduction as claimed and looking at the time frame of a minute or so , are we expected to believe the abductor came in sedated the children, hid whilst gerry was there and then opened the window and shutter( without making a sound in a quiet street unlike any metal shutter made) grabbed Madeleine made the bed adding in the neat little triangle, climbed out the window without leaving a mark or left the way he came in via the patio door (thus negating the palaver with the window and shutters) and hurrying away across the top of the street where gerry and Jez are standing talking and jane walking invisibly past them who spotted him carryig Madeleine and who then said nothing allegedly till after they had written the timeline about seeing the abductor (how did they know then to add him to the timeline if she hadn't told anyone?)

The abduction story as claimed did not happen, could never have happened and would be pysically impossible to have happened.

Go back to the drawing board mccanns and this time , try and come up with something that is remotely believable. This isn't even good enough for a 3rd grade fairy tale.

The problem with a lie is remembering who you told what and when.

the truth can be told forwards backwards and sideways as it comes from experiential memory, something that has been experienced.

A lie does not come from experienced memory thus there is no solid basis to support it.

As it is imaginary, made up, it will change everytime it is told, additions are made to bolster the story, extra details used to convince the listener of the truth, except it weakens the statement.

Important facts get ommitted or changed, the story at the start says one thing, the story days, weeks and even years downthe line will have barely any similarities.

The only things the stories at the start and to date tha have stayed consistent are Madeleine is missing, they were getting pissed in the tapas bar and it took place in Portugal.

*****************

Sentence in blue underlined - Didn't Kate McCann mention on the Oprah Winfrey show (I think it was) that she hoped that Madeleine's abductor had given her her pink blanket as she couldn't sleep without it??????

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Hobs on 03.02.13 5:45

“I did my check about ten o’clock and went in through the sliding patio doors, and I
just stood actually, and I thought, uh, all quiet. And to be honest, I might have been
tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door
where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it.
I went to close it to about here, and then as I got to here, it suddenly . . . slammed,
and as I opened it, it was then, that I just thought I’ll just look at the children.
I see Sean and Amelie in the cot . . . .


“I did my check about ten o’clock and went in through the sliding patio doors, and I
just stood actually, and I thought, uh, all quiet.


Follow the tenses:)

Just is used to minimise downwards.

Introduction of body position indicates tension.

Actually is used to compare two or more things.

She stood as opposed to what?

Note she puts her emotions in the perfect place.

What we have here is not an experiential memory, we have her setting the scene for a story, all that is missing is the once upon a time.

And to be honest, I might have been
tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door
where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it
.

And at the beginning of a sentence indicates missing information.

When the subjec introduces honesty into the story theyare being anything but,it tells us they have not been honest previously and they aren't being honest now. Honest people don't need to convince us of their honesty.
If she was there to do a check why go all the way there and not physically check they haven't moved around or the covers have fallen off. Why do a check and not actually check? if she ws jut going to listen for any noise why not stop outside the window and listen?


She doesn' tell us what she did she tells us what might have been done

But negates what was previously said ie she was about to turn round.

When doors open and closed, lights on and off, water or washing are introduced it is often associated with sexua abuse.

Here, we see door mentioned twice in relation to the children indicating sensitivity.

Three is the liars number (Mark McClish) you may say there were three children in the bedroom so she isn't lyng.

Think about it?

Why does kate need to tell us there are three children in the bedroom?

We know she had three children, we know (according to their story) they were all in the same bedroom, why the need to tell us the three of them were there when the words OUR CHILDREN would suffice.

The brain thinks of the words a microsecon before the mouth speaks it, it is important, nay essential to the story, that we understand three children are asleep in the bedroom.

Notice also the article she uses. THE not OUR, why the need to distance the three children?

Given that other adults allegedly did checks on the children even to oldfield loking into the bdroom, why does she then tell us the door was not the same as when they left it?

The door postition being different should not have caused her any concern as it is unlikely oldfield would have closed the door to the exact position hw left it in. It only matters if there had been no checks in which case the door position could have been different if Madeleine woke up for a drink or the bathroom.

The door is highly snsitive to kate and given it's association with sexual ause i would be asking a lot of questions.

What also is of interet is the breaking of the laws of physics.

If the window and sutters were open as claied (along with the curtains) as soon as she had opened the door into the apartment the bedroom door would have slammed shut. (how often have we had windows and doors open, opened a fron or back door and had the internal doors slam shut?)

The bedroom door would not have slammed shut once she had entered the house and close the patio door, it would either have slammed shut on her opening the patio door or not moved due to changes in wind pressure.

I went to close it to about here, and then as I got to here, it suddenly . . . slammed,
and as I opened it, it was then, that I just thought I’ll just look at the children.
I see Sean and Amelie in the cot . . . .


Why did the door suddenly slam shut when she moved it and not previously?

Why did she only decide to look at the children after the door allegedly slammed and not any other time?

Just is used to minimise and we see it used twice indicating sensitivity.

Why does she use the word children and not kids? Kids is commonplace almost universal language,ie i'll just check on the kis. Children or child is often used used in cases of abuse we don't say kid abuse we say child abuse. I would ask about her relationship with the children especially given the fact Madeleine is missing, payne and gerry having an inappropriate discussion about Madeleine, payne liking to bathe other peoples children, the intoduction of bathing, showering, doors and lights that pepper kates version of events.I would also ask about her relationship with gerry since introduction of personal hygiene can indicate possible domesticabuse ( as could be seen by the severe bruising on kate's wrists and upper arms which cannot have comefrom hitting walls)

Note now the big oopsie, she changes from paste tense to present tense. When tenses change from past to present it is indicative of story telling, she isn't telling us what was, she is now telling us what is, ie what she is making up.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Woofer on 03.02.13 7:11

Wow Hobs, that`s all so interesting, thanks.

Also, wouldn`t the twins have woken up IF the door slammed?

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Hobs on 03.02.13 8:27

@Woofer wrote:Wow Hobs, that`s all so interesting, thanks.

Also, wouldn`t the twins have woken up IF the door slammed?

One would think so, they never woke up during all the ruckus what with kate screaming and adults running around conveniently contaminating the crime scene.

One also has to ask why they never had the twins checked out at the hospital given they hadn't woken up, and since Madeleine was missing allegedly at the hand of a paedophile abductor, there was the risk of them being sedated or of having been molested.

Them moving the twins around contaminated the scenes ( how convenent) and also ruined any chance of DNA being found on them, their clothing, their bedding etc.

We are told kate kept sticking her fingers under their noses to make sure they were stll breathing.

Doctors, due to the nature of their job, tend to be hypersensitive and over protective when it comes to their children since they are all too aware of what injuries they can suffer in the home especially if unattended.

Instinct should have been to get them checked out at a hospital and thereafter to never let them out of their sight out of fear they too could be abducted.

Instead we have them being dumped in the creche as if nothing had happened. How were they to know that the alleged abductor didn't work or have a connection with the creche?

They turned down a babysitter because they didn''t trust a stranger and didn't want strangers looking after their children, yet, were happy to leave thir children with strangers during the day, the same strangers who babysat at night.

Their behavior does not follow the expected pattern, and, when it does the unexpected rather than the expected then it is red flagged and needs closer examination.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by PeterMac on 03.02.13 8:49

BUT . . . during all of this commotion -
despite a window and shutters having been open for an hour on a cold night,
despite the door slamming shut,
despite curtains blowing into the room,
despite their mother frantically opening and closing wardrobes and cupboards
despite their mother rushing out screaming for help,
despite the entire Tapas 7 group searching throughout the apartment,
despite Kate and the Tapas group shouting Madeleine’s name outside,
despite Gerry McCann’s closing and opening the shutters multiple times
despite Mrs Webster’s similarly attempting to open the shutters but failing,
despite the Police investigating the scene,
despite Gerry’s “roaring like a lion” and then prostrating himself on the floor,
despite both parents repeating this action and wailing
despite Kate’s checking the twins for vital signs,
despite the twins being lifted from their cots by people not their parents, and
despite their being carried out into the cold night air, and to another apartment.

Despite all of this . . . the twins did not wake
Kate McCann stated in 2011 that she had suspected sedation from the very first.
Given the above perhaps this is understandable.

NOTE:
Levels of sedation are assessed according to the The Ramsay
Sedation Scale. RSS. This was the first scale to be defined for sedated
patients and was designed as a test of rousability. The RSS scores
sedation at six different levels, according to how rousable the patient is.
It is an intuitively obvious scale and therefore lends itself to universal
use, not only in the ICU, but wherever sedative drugs or narcotics are
given. It can be added to the pain score and be considered the sixth vital
sign.
Ramsay Sedation Scale
1 Patient is anxious and agitated or restless, or both
2 Patient is cooperative, oriented and tranquil
3 Patient responds to commands only
4 Patient exhibits brisk response to light glabellar (forehead) tap or
loud auditory stimulus
5 Patient exhibits a sluggish response to light glabellar tap or loud
auditory stimulus
6 Patient exhibits no response

The twins are clearly in point 6 on the scale. They are failing to respond to
external stimuli, cold, light, noise - including screaming, the inevitable jolting of the
cots placed so close together in a small room during the search and window /
shutter procedures, human touch, being picked up by person other than their own
parents, and so on.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by aquila on 03.02.13 9:10

I've copied this from another thread 'don't wake the kids'.

A snippet from Fiona Payne's rogatory interview (source: the Maddie Case Files)



1485
“So having got back from your search around the corner, did you go then straight into the McCANN’s?”


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“What did you see when you walked in, describe it?”


Reply
“At
that point, Gerry, I don’t think was in the apartment, it was mainly
Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief,
thinking she’s got to be here, you know, what, how can this have
happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she’d
found when she’d gone back, which was that the, she’d found the window
open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that
somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that’s what she was telling me
and I was like ‘They can’t have done. They can’t have done this’, you
know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked
in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the
curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had
already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into
the
room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine,
erm, Madeleine’s bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of
neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they
didn’t stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and
moving around the room, they didn’t stir at all, which that was, that
was odd. Erm,
we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have
got out, and I’ve already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and
I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the
shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn’t a likely thing,
but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine
was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in
that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn’t actually
open the
shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house
and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove
whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether
Madeleine could have opened it from the inside”.

00.50.31
1485
“And?”


Reply
“I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn’t what had happened and what could have happened”.


1485
“So what did you do, walk out of the apartment and round the other side then?”


Reply
“No, I”.


1485
“Or did you do it from the inside?”


Reply
“I did it from, I’m talking about, so, again, the back or the front, I did it from the back, which is where their balcony was”.


1485
“Yeah, yeah”.


Reply
“Erm, I don’t know”.


1485
“How was Kate?”


Reply
“Awful,
erm, I’ve never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I’ve seen
a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was just bereft, she didn’t
know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely
frightened for Madeleine and, erm, was wondering where she was or what
was happening to her. And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do
anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was
angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered
in bruises the next day, because she just didn’t know what, what else
to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying ‘I’ve let her down.
We’ve let her down Gerry’, you know, ‘We should have been here’. Erm,
tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I just don’t think she knew what to do,
what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. I think
as time went on it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt
to phone the
Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed
like an eternity, where nothing was happening
, tut. Erm, you know, we’re
all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be
doing and, you know, what’s going to make a difference. And Kate’s
ringing, Gerry’s ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don’t,
they honestly just didn’t know what to do. So there was a lot of,
Gerry’s in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between
sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this
frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know,
people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking ‘At
least I can pray for Madeleine’ and her way of feeling that she was
doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn’t functioning”.

00.53.22
1485
“Did the twins wake up at all?”


Reply
“They didn’t. They didn’t”.


1485
“In the aftermath?”


Reply
“No,
and that was the
other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept
putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was
very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay,
I mean, they were fine, they didn’t, they were asleep, but at the time
it did seem weird,
I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came
they turned the lights on
, there was loads of noise, obviously from the
moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the
shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn’t, you know,
so much as blink”.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Nina on 03.02.13 10:38

@Hobs wrote:''My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no! On Madeleine’s bed, the top right-hand corners of the covers were still turned over, forming a triangle. Cuddle Cat and her pink princess blanket were lying where they’d been when we’d kissed her goodnight. I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots where the twins slept on, oblivious, and looked out through the window.''

There we have it, writ clear as day.

The perfect emotions in the perfect place in the story, as a story is what it is.

Note also the dropped pronouns in relation to the emotions.

If she can't take ownership of them, we can't do it for her.

What is also of interest is the description of the bed.

A 3 yr old toddlers allegedly slept in it, From experience of sprog sitting my niece and nephew at that age tells me there is no way the bed would have remained perfectly made with a neat little corner turned over.

The bedding would be all over the place especially since it is likely that unsedated children wake up and twist and turn.

Sedated children however move very little. telling i think.

Cuddle cat also seems to have the powers or teleportation moving from the bed to the shelf where kate knew immediately she had been abducted as it was out her reach.

Also if we go with the alleged abduction as claimed and looking at the time frame of a minute or so , are we expected to believe the abductor came in sedated the children, hid whilst gerry was there and then opened the window and shutter( without making a sound in a quiet street unlike any metal shutter made) grabbed Madeleine made the bed adding in the neat little triangle, climbed out the window without leaving a mark or left the way he came in via the patio door (thus negating the palaver with the window and shutters) and hurrying away across the top of the street where gerry and Jez are standing talking and jane walking invisibly past them who spotted him carryig Madeleine and who then said nothing allegedly till after they had written the timeline about seeing the abductor (how did they know then to add him to the timeline if she hadn't told anyone?)

The abduction story as claimed did not happen, could never have happened and would be pysically impossible to have happened.

Go back to the drawing board mccanns and this time , try and come up with something that is remotely believable. This isn't even good enough for a 3rd grade fairy tale.

The problem with a lie is remembering who you told what and when.

the truth can be told forwards backwards and sideways as it comes from experiential memory, something that has been experienced.

A lie does not come from experienced memory thus there is no solid basis to support it.

As it is imaginary, made up, it will change everytime it is told, additions are made to bolster the story, extra details used to convince the listener of the truth, except it weakens the statement.

Important facts get ommitted or changed, the story at the start says one thing, the story days, weeks and even years downthe line will have barely any similarities.

The only things the stories at the start and to date tha have stayed consistent are Madeleine is missing, they were getting pissed in the tapas bar and it took place in Portugal.

If I may Hobs, snipped from your excellent post.........

On Madeleine’s bed, the top right-hand corners of the covers were still turned over, forming a triangle.

The word 'still' as though that is how it was when she last saw it. Would you please give your interpretation of the context of this word in this situation? roses

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by tigger on 03.02.13 10:51

OOarr Nina! Doesn't that illustrate the benefit of CmoMM? I completely missed it.
Still turned over, no imprint of a body - just a stage setting for an 'abduction'.

Still turned over. Just as they'd left it?

The later addition of the blowing curtains etc. I'd be looking for the same narrative - possibly in another case of abduction written up in the press.
It was added at a later date for dramatic effect. Such as one sees in films....

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Woofer on 03.02.13 12:48

[quote="Angelique"]bobbin

Yes I too remember this account of GM fiddling with the shutter but not sure who said it.

As an aside, someone has questioned who was in the stroller that Jez was pushing around OC and it just made me wonder if it was too convenient that he was there at that particular time?[/quote]

You`re not the only one to wonder about that.

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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by tigger on 03.02.13 13:01

[quote="Woofer"]
@Angelique wrote:bobbin

Yes I too remember this account of GM fiddling with the shutter but not sure who said it.

As an aside, someone has questioned who was in the stroller that Jez was pushing around OC and it just made me wonder if it was too convenient that he was there at that particular time?[/quote]

You`re not the only one to wonder about that.

I really think it out of the question that a dead body was transported in this way and at this time.

What I do think however, is that JW was a godsend. By the 3rd of May, having played tennis with JW, Gerry'd have known all about JW and his film connections. When he then met JW outside the apartment by chance, close to zero hour, it must have been a chance not to be missed:
an independent witness
a TV producer of crime documentaries
a perfect independent alibi.

No wonder the timeline was shifted to accommodate JW.
I believe JW had nothing whatsoever to do with this, as his clear annoyance with the constant badgering by TM on the time they met being 9.15.
It is - if you read JW's testimony - much more likely to have been much earlier, between 8.45 and 9.00.

One of the things the reconstruction would no doubt have brought to light.



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Re: What was Kate doing in the apartment ?

Post by Ribisl on 03.02.13 16:45

@Hobbs
If you are a student of statement analysis as you mentioned earlier, I would have thought you must also be aware that your own statements must be accompanied by caveats instead of making them sound like indisputable facts. However, if this is the accepted way statement analysts present their opinion, then I stand to be corrected.

I generally find your opinion very interesting but here are a couple of comments regarding your analysis:

You say
Why does she use the word children and not kids? Kids is commonplace almost universal language,ie i'll just check on the kis. Children or child is often used used in cases of abuse we don't say kid abuse we say child abuse.
In England, we tend to refer to our children more often as 'children' rather than 'kids' compared to the Americans, so this may not be so significant as you suggest, especially as she is giving a formal recount on camera.

Kate said
And to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it.
You say
Three is the liars number (Mark McClish) you may say there were three children in the bedroom so she isn't lyng.
I really think you need to qualify a statement like this imo. If one or two of the children had been sleeping in the parents' bed or bedroom prior to this date, then it would be quite natural for her to say this referring to this particular evening when all three children had been sleeping together in the same bedroom. It's just one of several possible interpretations.

You say
When doors open and closed, lights on and off, water or washing are introduced it is often associated with sexua abuse.
This may be true statistically but one cannot infer that to be the case every time doors open and close, lights on and off, water or washing is mentioned in a witness statement.

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