Re: Pat Brown's blog

by Ross 07.09.12 2:26

aiyoyo wrote:You don't need a body to prove homicide, just evidence.
There is overwhelming evidence Maddie died in the apt.
Take away the unusual elements in the case - pressure from extra helping hands and spin - ordinarily case like this will make it to court and someone tried for the homicide even sans body.

Is it not the case in Portugal that you do need a body to prosecute for murder? I seem to remember reading that, but stand to be corrected. I don't agree that "There is overwhelming evidence Maddie died in the apt." Cadaverine is non-specific, a body, not any particular one. The blood specks do not have sufficient DNA markers to get past a defence lawyer. That's the sum of the forensic evidence, it's inconclusive not overwhelming.

In fact one of the real (many) curiosities is the apparent paucity of any forensic evidence that Madeleine was ever in the flat in the first place. No hair on the pillow, no toothbrush (!), no dirty clothes, no general clutter you would expect in a holiday apartment. If she was there, one obvious conclusion is that she was long gone before 3rd May.

by russiandoll 07.09.12 9:51

Hello Ross,
While cadaverine is non-specific, if there had been no known deaths in apartment 5a before May 3rd 2007, then given there is a child missing, it would seem reasonable to suspect that the death was of this child. Also blood marked independently by a different dog in the same location would lend weight to this suspicion imo.

by ShuBob 07.09.12 10:00

Ross wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:You don't need a body to prove homicide, just evidence.
There is overwhelming evidence Maddie died in the apt.
Take away the unusual elements in the case - pressure from extra helping hands and spin - ordinarily case like this will make it to court and someone tried for the homicide even sans body.

Is it not the case in Portugal that you do need a body to prosecute for murder? I seem to remember reading that, but stand to be corrected. I don't agree that "There is overwhelming evidence Maddie died in the apt." Cadaverine is non-specific, a body, not any particular one. The blood specks do not have sufficient DNA markers to get past a defence lawyer. That's the sum of the forensic evidence, it's inconclusive not overwhelming.

In fact one of the real (many) curiosities is the apparent paucity of any forensic evidence that Madeleine was ever in the flat in the first place. No hair on the pillow, no toothbrush (!), no dirty clothes, no general clutter you would expect in a holiday apartment. If she was there, one obvious conclusion is that she was long gone before 3rd May.

No (cf. Joanna Cipriano case).

by russiandoll 07.09.12 15:48

It is not easy to reconcile the actions described by DW, the delay in leaving Faro for PdL because the group were concerned about obtaining child car seats, with the complete lack of care claimed in the resort itself.
I do not believe that any child would be allowed access to the patio area of apartment 5a, the drop from that wall to what was ground level below is not a risk any sane parent would take.
Given the light and noise from the tapas area, a child of Maddie's age would more than likely, if exiting via the patio doors, try to climb on a patio chair to establish where the light and noise was coming from. No way was access to the exterior space allowed imo, no way was there ever any checking, the apartment was locked because the children were being supervised elsewhere.

by **tigger** 07.09.12 16:02

Quite so RD! There were valuables inside after all and thankfully, these weren't missing as Gerry was able to report. First thing you think of - no child hang on a minute - where's my wallet, camera, mobile phone?

Gerry also said something like 'it could have been worse, we could have lost all three' not exact quote! I'll try to find it again.

We have the mindset her of a person who in a sort of Oscar Wilde manner, regards losing one child as unfortunate but three as carelessness.

One simply doesn't speak the same language or indeed come from the same planet.

by sonic72 12.09.12 20:41

It's a bit hypocritical of some members to pick at Pat Brown's use of words. The same people have not exactly been reserved with their own feelings towards this case.

Everyone has their own opinion on it, and Pat Brown has many years experience in a wide range of criminal investigations, she has been to Portugal to investigate herself, she has absorbed herself in all the available data, and I'm in agreement with her findings and opinions, I trust her judgement based on her higher level of experience with criminal cases.

by sonic72 12.09.12 20:49

Meagain wrote:I think that if I was in their shoes, I might be inclined to ask for the garden to be dug up uppatoffee. I am not however, so can't be sure.

I just wonder if however they play it they will receive criticism from some quarters. You and I might think that they should ask for it to be dug because it would show that they truly were not leaving any stone unturned and if nothing was found we might be genuinely relieved for them and for Madeleine. The next two people, however, might jump on this and condemn them as knowing she wasn't there because they have hid her body elsewhere.

What chance do they have?

You seem like you are defending them? What chance do they have? Surely a chance to find their child and get the allegations off their back would be priority number one, so digging up Murat's place would be beneficial to them.

Who cares if people jump on them and say they have hidden it somewhere else? It's not like people don't suspect them anyway! I have a feeling you've just joined to (subtly) stick up for the McCann's?

by david_uk 13.09.12 11:47

Has anyone ever purported that Maddie may have fatally fallen from the balcony into the flower bed below?.

by pennylane 13.09.12 12:03

david_uk wrote:Has anyone ever purported that Maddie may have fatally fallen from the balcony into the flower bed below?.

Yes this theory was discussed in-depth in the early days, and it is certainly food for thought!

It's possible that the Mc's sedated Maddie on 2nd, following the lengthy crying episode on 1st, but she still awoke in a groggy state and wandered out through the patio doors and climbed onto the wall to look at the tapas bar where she could hear them all making a commotion, and tragically she fell off the wall down into the flower bed and was badly injured, or broke her neck. I have always felt death occurred late 2nd or during 3rd May, and I think your above suggestion as to a possible cause, is plausible.

by david_uk 13.09.12 13:01

pennylane wrote:
david_uk wrote:Has anyone ever purported that Maddie may have fatally fallen from the balcony into the flower bed below?.

Yes this theory was discussed in-depth in the early days, and it is certainly food for thought!

It's possible that the Mc's sedated Maddie on 2nd, following the lengthy crying episode on 1st, but she still awoke in a groggy state and wandered out through the patio doors and climbed onto the wall to look at the tapas bar where she could hear them all making a commotion, and tragically she fell off the wall down into the flower bed and was badly injured, or broke her neck. I have always felt death occurred late 2nd or during 3rd May, and I think your above suggestion as to a possible cause, is plausible.

Did the dogs alert to that flowerbed beneath the apartment?

I think it more plausible that it was evening of May 2nd also.

by pennylane 13.09.12 13:12

david_uk wrote:
pennylane wrote:
david_uk wrote:Has anyone ever purported that Maddie may have fatally fallen from the balcony into the flower bed below?.

Yes this theory was discussed in-depth in the early days, and it is certainly food for thought!

It's possible that the Mc's sedated Maddie on 2nd, following the lengthy crying episode on 1st, but she still awoke in a groggy state and wandered out through the patio doors and climbed onto the wall to look at the tapas bar where she could hear them all making a commotion, and tragically she fell off the wall down into the flower bed and was badly injured, or broke her neck. I have always felt death occurred late 2nd or during 3rd May, and I think your above suggestion as to a possible cause, is plausible.

Did the dogs alert to that flowerbed beneath the apartment?

I think it more plausible that it was evening of May 2nd also.

Yes the dogs did alert to a 'light odor' in the flower bed. Pat Brown's blog - Page 3 260239

by Guest 13.09.12 13:17

david_uk wrote:Has anyone ever purported that Maddie may have fatally fallen from the balcony into the flower bed below?.

Gonçalo Amaral: "They are being left to sleep alone, while the parents get drunk at social gatherings, falling from windows and balconies like ripe fruit, or drying inside vehicles without the according penal sanction occurring"

by rainbow-fairy 23.11.12 10:35

sonic72 wrote:
Meagain wrote:I think that if I was in their shoes, I might be inclined to ask for the garden to be dug up uppatoffee. I am not however, so can't be sure.

I just wonder if however they play it they will receive criticism from some quarters. You and I might think that they should ask for it to be dug because it would show that they truly were not leaving any stone unturned and if nothing was found we might be genuinely relieved for them and for Madeleine. The next two people, however, might jump on this and condemn them as knowing she wasn't there because they have hid her body elsewhere.

What chance do they have?

You seem like you are defending them? What chance do they have? Surely a chance to find their child and get the allegations off their back would be priority number one, so digging up Murat's place would be beneficial to them.

Who cares if people jump on them and say they have hidden it somewhere else? It's not like people don't suspect them anyway! I have a feeling you've just joined to (subtly) stick up for the McCann's?

sonic72, 'Meagain' has always been 'subtly (sometimes not so subtly)sticking up for the McCann's (and attacking Tony Bennet)' under a different username k*****..... Pat Brown's blog - Page 3 302873

or so i've been led to believe...

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