Re: MY BIGGEST FEAR

by **tigger** 14.05.12 13:11

Totally agree Ross, it happened much earlier, but it was planned by Gerry imo. It's full of holes because the others didn't read from the same script. They had their own reasons to 'help' and that didn't include doing away with a corpse to make money. IMO of course.

So the messed up timeline is perfectly understandable, inevitable under the circumstances. Most of their helpful witnesses clearly didn't even think it was very important to get everything right.

The real problem is that the avarice of the McCanns stands out a mile - right from the start. They asked for money, even putting collection boxes all over OC - they treated OC as if they owned the place. Nothing so simple. Don't we all know people who aren't used to money strutting their stuff when they have some?
No for me it's extensive pre-planning and help and publicity waiting in the wings, for which there are plenty of pointers. As I said earlier, they seemed already to be way past the grieving stage and the final solution was a relief. Finally, finally we can get on with our lives and our big, big plans. I promise to work out some ideas and PM anyone who wants it. But not on here, not now.

By the way, they may seem to be flying high, but they don't look it. I think the takeover is complete, TM no longer has a free hand whatever they like to think.

by Hummingbird 14.05.12 15:01

Thank you everyone for your posts, at least I know I am not going mad!!
I cannot believe that any parent would put their child through an abduction, have them 'looked' after somewhere on planet earth to then 'produce' them when the time is right, it just doesn't bare thinking about but it is their constant reminders of the other children who have been 'found alive and well' that makes me most concerned about this scenario. I think you guys are right though and they like to throw in the baited lines frequently to throw us of the real 'scent'.
Whatever happened, I cannot believe it happened on the 3rd, they were too cold and calculated in even their first TV interviews for it to have only happened 24 hours previous, it was planned and I truly hope my biggest fear never comes true. (although I would love to think that somewhere she is alive, safe and happy) This sadly, as I am sure most of us think is not the case and I am inclined to agree with the theory that she had some sort of illness, she was surplus to requirements in their new and perfect 'happy, 1 boy and 1 girl family' and that the plans for this were put into motion months before the event took place.
God only knows what they did, but I pray that one day, especially the more they keep talking, some one will eventually drop one giant clanger and the truth will finally out. Thanks again for your thoughts, I am now off to read through Amarals book - never done it and have just discovered from another thread on here that the whole book is on this site - so figured it was a good place to start!! If anyone can suggest anything else that makes good reading please feel free to let me know, I have always steered clear of the books, especially KMs as I couldn't bear to read such nonsense,but perhaps you will advise otherwise! thanks

by Snifferdog 14.05.12 20:32

Re The Stuff Ups in the Time Line and the Many Phone Calls: Even the best laid plans can go awry.

Also to my mind, as TM are proven Liars I have to ignore their proffered poisoned apples and instead look for the simplest motives.

1. being that K was not coping well with M.

2. they were considering placing her in the care of relatives.

3. she was made a Ward of Court.

4. the mccs have proved themselves to be extremely avaricious.

5. there is no corpse. This way there are no inconsistencies and even provides a way for M to be miraculously found after the many years of searching and fund raising etc. Providing another long term cash cow.

by Smokeandmirrors 14.05.12 20:46

nomendelta wrote:OK so Maddie was never on holiday - she's somewhere unspecified - perhaps in Canada as they have relatives there?

Where does the blodd and cadaver scent fit in? Planted by the PJ in the hopes of springing a confession? Planted by the McCanns as a bizarre red herring?

Why the panic a couple of nights before? The heavy mobile activity? Why screw up the abduction hypothesis SO badly?

To me, pre-planning would mean a simpler less complicated plan. Everything that has happened leads me to believe that it wasn't planned and the clumsy clashing of stories stems from covering up at the last minute.

I have to confess this notion has crossed my mind more than once. In fact I thought about starting a topic about it.

by Snifferdog 14.05.12 21:10

I think she is with relatives in Scotland or Ireland. Perhaps with a change of name. The blood and cadaver scent easily explained by the fact that the mccs have easy access to human remains. Pieces that may have been removed by surgery. These would normally be disposed of in the hospital incinerator. The other scenario being that sea bass could perhaps confuse a cadaver dog into alerting to corpse. I cannot say this is so as I do not know. Petermac is this at all possible. The blood can be easily explained by the same token. Blood tests get done all the time in hospitals and unused blood that is expired is destroyed in hospitals. It would be fairly easy to smuggle these out of a hospital, especially for doctors working there. All to create maximum confusion with no concrete proof, so therefore no arrests. I believe this is the scheme they cooked up, and some of the T7 may have been in the know and some not. They have no shame, and seem quite immune to the public disgust shown to them by some. their new found fortunes making up for this. I think those that can bring this charade to an end are in the know, I think their hands are tied by blackmail, something so huge and nasty, that governments could topple should it ever come out.

by nomendelta 14.05.12 21:32

Snifferdog wrote:I think she is with relatives in Scotland or Ireland. Perhaps with a change of name. The blood and cadaver scent easily explained by the fact that the mccs have easy access to human remains. Pieces that may have been removed by surgery. These would normally be disposed of in the hospital incinerator. The other scenario being that sea bass could perhaps confuse a cadaver dog into alerting to corpse. I cannot say this is so as I do not know. Petermac is this at all possible. The blood can be easily explained by the same token. Blood tests get done all the time in hospitals and unused blood that is expired is destroyed in hospitals. It would be fairly easy to smuggle these out of a hospital, especially for doctors working there. All to create maximum confusion with no concrete proof, so therefore no arrests. I believe this is the scheme they cooked up, and some of the T7 may have been in the know and some not. They have no shame, and seem quite immune to the public disgust shown to them by some. their new found fortunes making up for this. I think those that can bring this charade to an end are in the know, I think their hands are tied by blackmail, something so huge and nasty, that governments could topple should it ever come out.

See this is the kind of speculation that gets us all labelled as malicious nutters.

The way to solve this is the simplest explanation then to expand. That they planned a mystery, that they brought over some dead body parts all the way from England just to leave a false scent (and why?) and that they planned to makemoney from the whole scenario. That ain't simple and if you read that in a book it would be too far-fetched.

As unpalatable as the idea might seem, the theory that Maddie died on the 3rd or even before and everything since has been a cover-up is still a bit "out there" as theories but it's far simpler and more likely than the above.

by Guest 14.05.12 21:37

nomendelta wrote:
Snifferdog wrote:I think she is with relatives in Scotland or Ireland. Perhaps with a change of name. The blood and cadaver scent easily explained by the fact that the mccs have easy access to human remains. Pieces that may have been removed by surgery. These would normally be disposed of in the hospital incinerator. The other scenario being that sea bass could perhaps confuse a cadaver dog into alerting to corpse. I cannot say this is so as I do not know. Petermac is this at all possible. The blood can be easily explained by the same token. Blood tests get done all the time in hospitals and unused blood that is expired is destroyed in hospitals. It would be fairly easy to smuggle these out of a hospital, especially for doctors working there. All to create maximum confusion with no concrete proof, so therefore no arrests. I believe this is the scheme they cooked up, and some of the T7 may have been in the know and some not. They have no shame, and seem quite immune to the public disgust shown to them by some. their new found fortunes making up for this. I think those that can bring this charade to an end are in the know, I think their hands are tied by blackmail, something so huge and nasty, that governments could topple should it ever come out.

See this is the kind of speculation that gets us all labelled as malicious nutters.

The way to solve this is the simplest explanation then to expand. That they planned a mystery, that they brought over some dead body parts all the way from England just to leave a false scent (and why?) and that they planned to makemoney from the whole scenario. That ain't simple and if you read that in a book it would be too far-fetched.

As unpalatable as the idea might seem, the theory that Maddie died on the 3rd or even before and everything since has been a cover-up is still a bit "out there" as theories but it's far simpler and more likely than the above.

I totally agree nomendelta,

I find that all totally unbelievable. As if anyone would take human bits and pieces and test tubes of blood with them on holiday, it is frankly proposterous. If someone was that clever as to think this sort of thing up, and make it look like an abduction, then they would have also made it look like someone had been in the apartment. It would be so easy to find hairs from unknown people and leave some in the apartment, you only need to go to the hairdresser and pick some off the floor. It would have been made to look like a proper break-in, no need for the unlocked doors. They could easily have taken some cigarette ends and put a couple outside the apartment to look as if someone had been lurking there waiting. The police would never identify these hairs cig butts etc, from the DNA unless by some unlucky chance they were on the DNA database. This would have made the police believe someone had definitely been in the apartment. If you were going to all that trouble, wouldn't you at least make it look as though someone had been in the apartment. Sorry, I just don't buy that theory.

by Nina 14.05.12 22:10

And bits of body parts or off meat is not cadaverine, it is just bad/off meat in its smell. Cadaverine is different.

by Ross 14.05.12 22:19

Nina wrote:And bits of body parts or off meat is not cadaverine, it is just bad/off meat in its smell. Cadaverine is different.

Also, cadaverine is non-specific - it cannot be tied to a particular corpse. The presence of cadaverine was indicated in an apartment where a child was reported to be missing from, so it is a reasonable assumption to link those two things. However, it is still an assumption.

by Snifferdog 14.05.12 22:25

candyfloss wrote:
nomendelta wrote:
Snifferdog wrote:I think she is with relatives in Scotland or Ireland. Perhaps with a change of name. The blood and cadaver scent easily explained by the fact that the mccs have easy access to human remains. Pieces that may have been removed by surgery. These would normally be disposed of in the hospital incinerator. The other scenario being that sea bass could perhaps confuse a cadaver dog into alerting to corpse. I cannot say this is so as I do not know. Petermac is this at all possible. The blood can be easily explained by the same token. Blood tests get done all the time in hospitals and unused blood that is expired is destroyed in hospitals. It would be fairly easy to smuggle these out of a hospital, especially for doctors working there. All to create maximum confusion with no concrete proof, so therefore no arrests. I believe this is the scheme they cooked up, and some of the T7 may have been in the know and some not. They have no shame, and seem quite immune to the public disgust shown to them by some. their new found fortunes making up for this. I think those that can bring this charade to an end are in the know, I think their hands are tied by blackmail, something so huge and nasty, that governments could topple should it ever come out.

See this is the kind of speculation that gets us all labelled as malicious nutters.

The way to solve this is the simplest explanation then to expand. That they planned a mystery, that they brought over some dead body parts all the way from England just to leave a false scent (and why?) and that they planned to make money from the whole scenario. That ain't simple and if you read that in a book it would be too far-fetched.

As unpalatable as the idea might seem, the theory that Maddie died on the 3rd or even before and everything since has been a cover-up is still a bit "out there" as theories but it's far simpler and more likely than the above.

I totally agree nomendelta,

I find that all totally unbelievable. As if anyone would take human bits and pieces and test tubes of blood with them on holiday, it is frankly proposterous. If someone was that clever as to think this sort of thing up, and make it look like an abduction, then they would have also made it look like someone had been in the apartment. It would be so easy to find hairs from unknown people and leave some in the apartment, you only need to go to the hairdresser and pick some off the floor. It would have been made to look like a proper break-in, no need for the unlocked doors. They could easily have taken some cigarette ends and put a couple outside the apartment to look as if someone had been lurking there waiting. The police would never identify these hairs cig butts etc, from the DNA unless by some unlucky chance they were on the DNA database. This would have made the police believe someone had definitely been in the apartment. If you were going to all that trouble, wouldn't you at least make it look as though someone had been in the apartment. Sorry, I just don't buy that theory.

There is really no reason to be Rude people. Nomendelta I shall ignore your implied insult Malicious Nutters etc. Perhaps people may think the same of your posts too. I used to hold the view that Madeleine was dead, but came to the conclusion that more people would join in a fraud conspiracy than a death conspiracy. Candyfloss, yes I do wonder why they didn't do all that you have suggested above to support their abduction theory Re strewing hairs around the place, leaving cigarette stompies outside where the supposed paedo lurker was casing the joint and generally leaving clues to show the police that there was an abductor in the apartment etc etc. If you had read my post properly you would have seen that I also mentioned the possibility of the cadaver scent being sea bass. As I do not have access to the forensic books that Gerry was fortunate enough to possess I cannot say if cadaver dogs would alert to this. Why should a scenario that M was murdered/accidently killed, the parents being heard laughing and joking the next day looking like they have just pulled off a huge coup be less crazy than parents planning their own daughters abduction and then heard laughing and joking the next day like they have just pulled off a huge coup? Thank you Candyfloss for the compliment as regards my theory, being clever enough to think it up and all that. As for the blood, they are doctors and would be quite capable of drawing their own blood to be used if that would suit better. I prefer to think laterally and out of the box which I feel quite entitled to do. If this is not allowed (no freedom of speech), and we are only to espouse certain views then I think posters should be warned in advance.

by Guest 14.05.12 22:47

Snifferdog, I was not meaning to be rude. My opinion is it is flawed, because, if as you say, someone took the time, and trouble, and found out all these things, and did all these things, then surely they would have made it more airtight by leaving signs of an abductor in the apartment. It would be the first thing to do imo, otherwise you are left with the scenario that there is not trace of an an abductor even being in the apartment. Straight away the plan breaks down. If you really were planning something so meticulously, then you would cover all bases surely?

by Snifferdog 14.05.12 23:26

candyfloss wrote:Snifferdog, I was not meaning to be rude. My opinion is it is flawed, because, if as you say, someone took the time, and trouble, and found out all these things, and did all these things, then surely they would have made it more airtight by leaving signs of an abductor in the apartment. It would be the first thing to do imo, otherwise you are left with the scenario that there is not trace of an an abductor even being in the apartment. Straight away the plan breaks down. If you really were planning something so meticulously, then you would cover all bases surely?

That is what one would expect Candyfloss, but here's the paradox. What you say should apply in either case, but it doesn't. In other words why after they cleaned the apartment did they not plant evidence that their was an abductor in the apartment then. There are too many loose ends for me to believe that she died. Firstly, the fact that they have found No Trace of any of Madeleines DNA. Where are her clothes, shoes toothbrush etc? Cut hairs without roots, no credible photographs, I think that is enough examples for now. The success of their deception hinges on confusion and the fact that they cannot be charged for her death as Gerry himself says "There is no credible evidence that Madeleine is dead." I get the impression that Gerry cannot completely hide the satisfaction that he gets from the success of his clever plan, and cannot resist giving out a hidden challenge here and there, such as "find the body and prove we killed her", smug and sure that a body will never be found. Kate cannot resist talking about red herrings, which they themselves are the actual originators of. Criminals often get carried away by their own perceived cleverness and tempt fate by dropping clues, believing that they will never be found out. As these two are born liars I prefer to ignore their timelines and suchlike, as once a liar, always a liar. Gerry loves the confusion and says as much. They are both intelligent and play on public sentiments to suit their agenda, some of the stuff one hears coming out of their mouths, well you just can't make it up, but they do! The fact that there is no sign of any abduction is immaterial to them, it just adds to the confusion and muddies the waters, which is very necessary for the success of their plan. I must say I knew I would probably get my head bitten off for this theory and I should like to add nothing ventured nothing gained. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by jarof 14.05.12 23:32

Why would they do that? If Madeleine is ever found, she will be able to say where she was.

by Snifferdog 14.05.12 23:47

jarof wrote:Why would they do that? If Madeleine is ever found, she will be able to say where she was.

Or she may not. She will be older then and decide to keep the status quo as if she speaks out she will have to live with the shame of what her parents (possibly) did. whereas if she had to sleeping dogs lie, and just carry on with her life, she would still have to live with the personal shame of being born to such parents, but at least publicly her parents will be vindicated. .

by Guest 14.05.12 23:52

Snifferdog wrote:
jarof wrote:Why would they do that? If Madeleine is ever found, she will be able to say where she was.
Or she may not. She will be older then and decide to keep the status quo as if she speaks out she will have to live with the shame of what her parents (possibly) did. whereas if she had to sleeping dogs lie, and just carry on with her life, she would still have to live with the personal shame of being born to such parents, but at least publicly her parents will be vindicated. .

Would you keep quiet if you thought you had been farmed off somewhere for years, without a thought. And what about the people who had her, she would identify them, they would be in a spot of bother too.

by nomendelta 14.05.12 23:56

Indeed. Either the photos are not Maddie but some subsitute - in which case why hasn't the substitute been tracked down given their photo has been plastered all over the world? If they are not of a sub then they ARE of Maddie...and again, most recognisable missing girl in the world. Why hasn't she been spotted?

by Snifferdog 15.05.12 0:13

nomendelta wrote:Indeed. Either the photos are not Maddie but some subsitute - in which case why hasn't the substitute been tracked down given their photo has been plastered all over the world? If they are not of a sub then they ARE of Maddie...and again, most recognisable missing girl in the world. Why hasn't she been spotted?

I hardly think that she is recognizable, I don't think anybody but her parents or relatives knows what she really looks like. One can do amazing things with photoshop, even create a whole new composite face. There is a program on the net where you can create a face from different features, quite entertaining really. Things are not black and white in this case but shades of grey. I think what Friedtomatoes was referring to is that a COMPOSITE face was made up for the pics of MM. so therefore a bit more difficult to track down.

by Snifferdog 15.05.12 0:29

candyfloss wrote:
Snifferdog wrote:
jarof wrote:Why would they do that? If Madeleine is ever found, she will be able to say where she was.
Or she may not. She will be older then and decide to keep the status quo as if she speaks out she will have to live with the shame of what her parents (possibly) did. whereas if she had to sleeping dogs lie, and just carry on with her life, she would still have to live with the personal shame of being born to such parents, but at least publicly her parents will be vindicated. .

Would you keep quiet if you thought you had been farmed off somewhere for years, without a thought. And what about the people who had her, she would identify them, they would be in a spot of bother too.

I am still of the opinion that she is living with relatives. She has spent a lot of time with relatives (don't know who, but would like to know) before she disappeared. I presume they would have had plenty of time to indoctrinate her into silence should she suddenly appear, (assuming this scenario to be the case of course, and if being capable of being so wicked in the first place should surely be no problem to do it). As for whether I would do the same, I just don't know as I would really have to mull over it before I could give you an honest answer never having been in such a situation. A case in point: I do not remember the name of the young woman who was in the news not to long ago, who was supposedly captured by another fellow mormon, and held against her will. There are many people who believe her family to have covered up her willing participation and believe that she actually ran off with him. She sticks to her story that she was abducted although there are so many inconsistencies in this case that point otherwise. Perhaps you can remember her name?

by jarof 15.05.12 0:44

It's all abit too far fetched. The photos aren't Maddie now? So no one has seen Maddie, like neighbours or friends etc. Was she not at playschool?

If Madeleine is with family, why havn't they returned her yet? also who would agree to such a thing and ruin their own life because hiding her would not be an easy thing. If she was found, i don't believe she would cover anything up, she is only 9 and would slip up in her answers. Also when she is a lil older, she would hate her parents for what they had done, that she would speak out about it.

by friedtomatoes 15.05.12 0:47

Snifferdog wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
Snifferdog wrote:
jarof wrote:Why would they do that? If Madeleine is ever found, she will be able to say where she was.
Or she may not. She will be older then and decide to keep the status quo as if she speaks out she will have to live with the shame of what her parents (possibly) did. whereas if she had to sleeping dogs lie, and just carry on with her life, she would still have to live with the personal shame of being born to such parents, but at least publicly her parents will be vindicated. .

Would you keep quiet if you thought you had been farmed off somewhere for years, without a thought. And what about the people who had her, she would identify them, they would be in a spot of bother too.
I am still of the opinion that she is living with relatives. She has spent a lot of time with relatives (don't know who, but would like to know) before she disappeared. I presume they would have had plenty of time to indoctrinate her into silence should she suddenly appear, (assuming this scenario to be the case of course, and if being capable of being so wicked in the first place should surely be no problem to do it). As for whether I would do the same, I just don't know as I would really have to mull over it before I could give you an honest answer never having been in such a situation. A case in point: I do not remember the name of the young woman who was in the news not to long ago, who was supposedly captured by another fellow mormon, and held against her will. There are many people who believe her family to have covered up her willing participation and believe that she actually ran off with him. She sticks to her story that she was abducted although there are so many inconsistencies in this case that point otherwise. Perhaps you can remember her name?

bunkum

by **tigger** 15.05.12 7:43

Snifferdog wrote:
A case in point: I do not remember the name of the young woman who was in the news not to long ago, who was supposedly captured by another fellow mormon, and held against her will. There are many people who believe her family to have covered up her willing participation and believe that she actually ran off with him. She sticks to her story that she was abducted although there are so many inconsistencies in this case that point otherwise. Perhaps you can remember her name? Unquote

How in the name of reason is that a paralell for the disappearance of a 4 year old girl?
If you are defending a theory - fine. Just don't ignore evidence that is freely available in the files that doesn't agree with your theory.
If your are trying to get publicity for your book - also fine - just don't pass the plot off as based on available evidence. It isn't. Most of your 'theories' are pure fantasy.

I think you're thinking about Elisabeth Smart.

Added: my goodness! I only read the last few posts - just seen the previous ones - easy access to body parts! I agree with Nomendelta :Get thee hence! M....N....!
You're giving us a bad name.

by sami 15.05.12 9:06

Wow. I'm stuck for words so better not to comment.

Nomendelta, I agree with you. When and if we ever find out what happened, I think it will be a very simple sequence of events, coupled with a lot of luck, and one or two questions that we will never find the answer to.

by Mariita 15.05.12 9:56

Or might it be Natascha Kampusch you were thinking of, Snifferdog? She was abducted at the age of 10 and held captivated in the house(mostly in the cellar) of her abductor. After 8,5 years she managed to escape. There were, and still are theories whether she tells the truth, some doubt that the kidnapper was alone for instance. Others doubt she stayed with him against her will. However, Nataschas parents were suspects early in the investigation...quite natural as the statistics reveal that more than 90% of the abduction stories are cover-ups of crimes commited by the child´s own parents/relatives. This case belonged to the very, very rare part where the parents had nothing to do with the disappearence. The McCanns have mentioned Natascha Kampusch as an example more than once, trying to convince people that these things actually happen.
They need to remind people of unusual cases because they are aware of how rare they are. No, it´s not because Madeleine is going to "pop up" somewhere soon!!! Just because no body has been found?!? There are probably many ways of getting rid of a body(easier with a small one), some more macabre than other. The more I read about this case(facts!), the more I believe the McCanns are capable of. To get rid of Madeleine forever was the main mission...At least that´s my thought.

by **tigger** 15.05.12 10:13

Mariita wrote:Or might it be Natascha Kampusch you were thinking of, Snifferdog? She was abducted at the age of 10 and held captivated in the house(mostly in the cellar) of her abductor. After 8,5 years she managed to escape. There were, and still are theories whether she tells the truth, some doubt that the kidnapper was alone for instance. Others doubt she stayed with him against her will. However, Nataschas parents were suspects early in the investigation...quite natural as the statistics reveal that more than 90% of the abduction stories are cover-ups of crimes commited by the child´s own parents/relatives. This case belonged to the very, very rare part where the parents had nothing to do with the disappearence. The McCanns have mentioned Natascha Kampusch as an example more than once, trying to convince people that these things actually happen.
They need to remind people of unusual cases because they are aware of how rare they are. No, it´s not because Madeleine is going to "pop up" somewhere soon!!! Just because no body has been found?!? There are probably many ways of getting rid of a body(easier with a small one), some more macabre than other. The more I read about this case(facts!), the more I believe the McCanns are capable of. To get rid of Madeleine forever was the main mission...At least that´s my thought.

No, it was the Mormon thing. Elisabeth Smart is right on side with TM because it props up her own story as well.
Natascha Kampush I think is genuine. Psychologically it works out. Abducted early to be a wife/sex slave. But you do get the Stockholm syndrome where the victim sympathises with the criminal.
Right up your street!
Both these cases and another one in the US where it was also a teenage girl who was kept by the man and his mother I believe, already had two children by him too. This last one is too unsavoury for TM to trot out. So they mention these other two cases which have nothing in common with Maddie's disappearance.

by Mariita 15.05.12 11:01

Right, and not only do they mention real cases(which indeed have NOTHING in common with Madeleine,I have just read about the Elisabeth Smart story), they also say: "And we´ve heard of so many cases where the persons were missing for years,even decades..and then finally returned home". This is what they told the interviewer Annika when they were in Stockholm, and funnily she just nodded...I would have asked them for examples of stories where people were gone for decades.Who,where,when??? Strange they are allowed to say whatever they want to build up the credibility! As if there is a law that forbids anyone to ask them simple logical questions in public.

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