my verdict and if they came clean

by turnaround 01.04.12 10:09

I have read a fair bit now about the case.... and I really do believe they know what happened to their daughter, and nothing can change my mind. However, If they came clean I would have a lot of respect for them regardless of what happened. The end.

xxxx
thanks for all the info everyone.

by ufercoffy 01.04.12 11:21

That's generous of you, but if they know what happened to Madeleine, which I'm sure they do, then there's no way I would have any respect for them after they've ruined lives and taken money under false pretences from the general public. If they had come clean when they were made ~~prime suspects~~ persons of interest it might have been a different matter but 5 years down the line? Nah [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by turnaround 01.04.12 12:33

I can can understand that.

I don't expect people to be perfect but I do expect them to put their misdeeds right. And that would mean making ammends to all those involved.

by puzzled 01.04.12 12:45

I must admit, I can't imagine ever respecting them, not after all the lives they've damaged.

by **PeterMac** 01.04.12 13:36

But by now they will have confessed, and received absolution.
So that's all right then !

by Smokeandmirrors 01.04.12 14:36

I don't think absolution can be granted on an ongoing sin, only one that has ceased. Otherwise absolution would be on an ongoing daily basis until the sin ceases. As far as I can see the sin is continuing without sign of abatement!!!

by turnaround 01.04.12 14:57

PeterMac wrote:But by now they will have confessed, and received absolution.
So that's all right then !

Yeh I can see where your coming from. My way of ammends mean all parties are satisfied. I don't know how that would work, given the amount of damage done, but were there's a will there's a way.

by turnaround 01.04.12 15:13

I like this quote.
Integrity : a lifelong process of cleaning up the mess you've made.

by **PeterMac** 01.04.12 15:14

Smokeandmirrors wrote:I don't think absolution can be granted on an ongoing sin, only one that has ceased. Otherwise absolution would be on an ongoing daily basis until the sin ceases. As far as I can see the sin is continuing without sign of abatement!!!

But isn't that why Catholics go to confession every week ? I have never understood why they don't just stop doing whatever they are confessing !

by Smokeandmirrors 01.04.12 16:34

PeterMac wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:I don't think absolution can be granted on an ongoing sin, only one that has ceased. Otherwise absolution would be on an ongoing daily basis until the sin ceases. As far as I can see the sin is continuing without sign of abatement!!!

But isn't that why Catholics go to confession every week ? I have never understood why they don't just stop doing whatever they are confessing !

Exactly so.
Cease.
Repent.
Forgive.

Or just don't sin in the first place.

by Gillyspot 01.04.12 16:57

PeterMac wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:I don't think absolution can be granted on an ongoing sin, only one that has ceased. Otherwise absolution would be on an ongoing daily basis until the sin ceases. As far as I can see the sin is continuing without sign of abatement!!!

But isn't that why Catholics go to confession every week ? I have never understood why they don't just stop doing whatever they are confessing !

Excellent point Peter. Particularly as Kate & Gerry's friends said they "weren't particularly religious" before the "abduction".

by **PeterMac** 01.04.12 17:02

Forgiveness is something the McCanns just don't do, despite their alleged faith.

“Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.” Matthew 5:7
“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.” Matthew 5:23-24
“And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” Mark 11:25
“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.” Luke 6:27-29
“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” Luke 6:36
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” Luke 6:37
Elsewhere, it is said, "Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22
"And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.'" Luke 23: 34

But then Jesus did not have a legal team trying to make money for him.

by Gillyspot 01.04.12 17:13

by nomendelta 01.04.12 17:43

A tough call really - it would certainly be better for their profile overall if they held their hands up and admitted the truth. That said, as far as the public are concerned, I don't think there is any way they'd come out looking good regardless of if they confessed or the SY review resulted in them being charged.

by Kololi 01.04.12 18:42

nomendelta wrote:A tough call really - it would certainly be better for their profile overall if they held their hands up and admitted the truth. That said, as far as the public are concerned, I don't think there is any way they'd come out looking good regardless of if they confessed or the SY review resulted in them being charged.

Well I get called Kate supporter or words to that effect and I must admit if they suddenly gave a press conference now and stuck their hands up and admitted playing a sinister part in this little girl's disappearance I would fall off my chair and actually think them quite evil to have conned the world for this amount of time.

From their profile perspective I don't think they could admit to anything awful now tbh. It has gone on too long and too many people have been drawn into it. The world or a large part of it would turn on them. If they do hold some dark sinister secret I think they are going to need to take it to the grave with them. But then I ~~"worship"~~ respect a lady who hasn't allowed people to brow beat her into submission and silence when she hasn't been found guilty of anything in a court of law and as such I don't think any secrets they may hold are actually that dark or that sinister - a bit grey maybe but hey we all have secrets in our closets.

by nomendelta 01.04.12 19:32

Yeah Kololi, we all have something in our closets that I am sure the press could twist and use to make us look awful. However, Kate and Gerry, with their own behaviour AND the special treatment they've received (read the thread on Ben Needham's disappearance and tell me they haven't had special treatment) leave a nasty taste in the mouths of most intelligent observers.

They may not have been found guilty but nor have they been cleared and for her to be featured in magazine articles DEMANDING to know why she was ever a suspect is quite, quite bizarre and egocentric given that it's a pretty dead cert in these cases that parents or close ones are involved. I've said before and I will say again that if a child I was looking after vanished under mysterious circumstances I would not like having the finger of suspicion pointed at me but I would certainly understand it happening and deal with it. What gives the McCanns away for me is that they ALWAYS go too far beyond how I consider "normal" and "average" people act. There is no sense of "well they have to do their job" or real concern with where her beloved missing child is...oh no, the story to run with is how dare people accuse her. That is a dangerous ego and to me that is also a signpost for much more than a bit of grey.

All that said I'd love to be proven wrong. The ideal would be that the child was taken for a childless couple and is living a blessed and comfortable life. An unlikely ideal but I'd be celebrating with the best of them if that was the truth as opposed to death, accidental or otherwise, involving her parents. Oh and there's another quite sickening thing - the way they are trashing anyone who suggests she is dead. Seriously think about this. They are happy to claim she was abducted by paedophiles. Now as a deeply spiritual and optimistic human being I am afraid that if my child disappeared in those circumstances I would be wishing them a speedy death. Certainly I shudder to think what shell of a human would be left after 5 years of being in the hands of such sick beasts yet they seem happy to consider she's still out there, giving what-for to her abductor and being treated like a princess.

Shudder.

by juliet 01.04.12 19:53

Non-Catholics never do understand Confession, and always make ludicrous and unhelpful comments. Gerry and Kate McCann could never have Absolution from sin if they were involved in Madeleine's disappearance - whether they killed her, let someone take her or were involved in some plot against her - unless they admitted all and promised to stop their lies and trickery.

Confession means saying you are sorry and pledging never to repeat the sin. It is not an ongoing slap-on-the-wrist and see-you-here-next-week arrangement.

As for the McCanns, their piousness seemed to come out of nowhere. IIRC, the priest they wanted to drag from his bed did come to PdL later, and admits the couple practically ignored him. Charitably, he (Seddon?) said they were "busy" with friends.

by nomendelta 01.04.12 20:53

Do you think though Juliet - and believe me I am not aiming this specifically at Catholics, I think it applied across all religions - that is really how it works? I think most people carry on with the same old sins - it's human nature to sort of think "got away with that" and push further.

At Church today the bible fell open on a page of Matthew's and the chapter that caught my eye was about judging others - a great line about not worrying about the sawdust in your brother's eye when there's a plank in your own. Fantastic stuff - but sadly I can't say I've met many people who adhere to that. Mind you, most of us here are looking at the sawdust rather than our own planks.

by juliet 01.04.12 21:18

People may carry on with the same old sins, nomendelta, but if they are Catholics, and bother going to Confession, they will know that tricking the priest about their intentions is pointless.

Catholics are taught that the priest is just God's representative. Everything said in Confession is actually said to God. So the McCanns can't lie or dissemble or get forgiven for anything they have done, unless they admit the full truth.

I would be surprised if the McCanns take Communion, as you can only do that if you have gone to Confession. They are always saying they go to Mass.

by juliet 01.04.12 22:13

nomendelta: do you think the McCanns thought, "Got away with that...." and now push further with lies and money-gathering? Should we, in that case, say, "Oh well, none of our business."

by **PeterMac** 01.04.12 22:55

juliet wrote:Non-Catholics never do understand Confession, and always make ludicrous and unhelpful comments.
Correct. I, like many other agnostics, and humanists/ atheists find the whole idea "ludicrous"

Confession means saying you are sorry and pledging never to repeat the sin. It is not an ongoing slap-on-the-wrist and see-you-here-next-week arrangement.
But surely Catholics go to confession every week as if it were simply a matter of ritual so that they can be in a "state of grace' before communion on Sunday ?

Childen have to be taught to do this. On a 'pupil exchange' holiday in France hundreds of years ago I observed and asked about my host children leaving a tennis session one by one to go to 'Confession".
We were 13. What sort of venial or mortal sin is a 13 year old supposed to be capable of ?
Eating a chocolate = Gluttony
Playing with oneself at night = Lust
Not wanting to get out of bed in the morning = Sloth
Being cross with your brother for puncturing your bicycle tyre = Wrath
Dreaming that one day you might have a better bicycle = Envy ??

As you say non-catholics do not understand it, and many of us find this whole thing a perversion aimed at very young and impressionable people, sadly in the same way in which young and impressionable people are being taught the perversions of thought which now masquerade as Islam.

Interesting that so many apostates are now describing themselves not as "relapsed Catholics" but as "Recovering Catholics".
Also interesting is how many describe nuns and monks as Evil, when referring to their treatment at their hands.

by Kololi 01.04.12 23:10

nomendelta wrote:Yeah Kololi, we all have something in our closets that I am sure the press could twist and use to make us look awful. However, Kate and Gerry, with their own behaviour AND the special treatment they've received (read the thread on Ben Needham's disappearance and tell me they haven't had special treatment) leave a nasty taste in the mouths of most intelligent observers.

They may not have been found guilty but nor have they been cleared and for her to be featured in magazine articles DEMANDING to know why she was ever a suspect is quite, quite bizarre and egocentric given that it's a pretty dead cert in these cases that parents or close ones are involved. I've said before and I will say again that if a child I was looking after vanished under mysterious circumstances I would not like having the finger of suspicion pointed at me but I would certainly understand it happening and deal with it. What gives the McCanns away for me is that they ALWAYS go too far beyond how I consider "normal" and "average" people act. There is no sense of "well they have to do their job" or real concern with where her beloved missing child is...oh no, the story to run with is how dare people accuse her. That is a dangerous ego and to me that is also a signpost for much more than a bit of grey.

All that said I'd love to be proven wrong. The ideal would be that the child was taken for a childless couple and is living a blessed and comfortable life. An unlikely ideal but I'd be celebrating with the best of them if that was the truth as opposed to death, accidental or otherwise, involving her parents. Oh and there's another quite sickening thing - the way they are trashing anyone who suggests she is dead. Seriously think about this. They are happy to claim she was abducted by paedophiles. Now as a deeply spiritual and optimistic human being I am afraid that if my child disappeared in those circumstances I would be wishing them a speedy death. Certainly I shudder to think what shell of a human would be left after 5 years of being in the hands of such sick beasts yet they seem happy to consider she's still out there, giving what-for to her abductor and being treated like a princess.

Shudder.

nomendelta

All that you have typed above describes what I think many people, myself included, feel in our hearts but you have shared your thoughts in a reasonable and fair way and without lambasting for the sake of it.

The one thing I would quibble with you is the comparison with Ben Needham. That was a long time ago and I would like to think that if the technology we have now had been around when he went missing his family might have got more support than they initially did. I do wish that the tax payers money David Cameron pledged for Madeleine had been more evenly distributed so that more families of missing children had received the benefit of it.

I am not sure how I would have reacted had it of been one of my own children re: your comment that you would have wished a speedy death for them. I do think that there is probably only a minority that would not wish her to be found as the ideal although people in general may think it unlikely after all this time that she will be.

It's all very tragic and whilst I agree that both Mr and Mrs McCann can appear sometimes to invite criticism a part of me does feel that if it is ever shown that they have in fact not done anything wrong then not only did they lose a daughter but they had some pretty horrid crap heaped upon them in the process.

by Cristobell 01.04.12 23:15

PeterMac wrote:
juliet wrote:Non-Catholics never do understand Confession, and always make ludicrous and unhelpful comments.
Correct. I, like many other agnostics, and humanists/ atheists find the whole idea "ludicrous"

Confession means saying you are sorry and pledging never to repeat the sin. It is not an ongoing slap-on-the-wrist and see-you-here-next-week arrangement.
But surely Catholics go to confession every week as if it were simply a matter of ritual so that they can be in a "state of grace' before communion on Sunday ?
Childen have to be taught to do this. On a 'pupil exchange' holiday in France hundreds of years ago I observed and asked about my host children leaving a tennis session one by one to go to 'Confession".
We were 13. What sort of venial or mortal sin is a 13 year old supposed to be capable of ?
Eating a chocolate = Gluttony
Playing with oneself at night = Lust
Not wanting to get out of bed in the morning = Sloth
Being cross with your brother for puncturing your bicycle tyre = Wrath
Dreaming that one day you might have a better bicycle = Envy ??

As you say non-catholics do not understand it, and many of us find this whole thing a perversion aimed at very young and impressionable people, sadly in the same way in which young and impressionable people are being taught the perversions of thought which now masquerade as Islam.

Interesting that so many apostates are now describing themselves not as "relapsed Catholics" but as "Recovering Catholics".
Also interesting is how many describe nuns and monks as Evil, when referring to their treatment at their hands.

Interesting response Petermac. I have not come across the term 'recovering catholics' before, but it certainly sounds about right. I had a bit of a battle with the church myself.

by nomendelta 01.04.12 23:33

Kololi wrote:nomendelta

All that you have typed above describes what I think many people, myself included, feel in our hearts but you have shared your thoughts in a reasonable and fair way and without lambasting for the sake of it.

The one thing I would quibble with you is the comparison with Ben Needham. That was a long time ago and I would like to think that if the technology we have now had been around when he went missing his family might have got more support than they initially did. I do wish that the tax payers money David Cameron pledged for Madeleine had been more evenly distributed so that more families of missing children had received the benefit of it.

I am not sure how I would have reacted had it of been one of my own children re: your comment that you would have wished a speedy death for them. I do think that there is probably only a minority that would not wish her to be found as the ideal although people in general may think it unlikely after all this time that she will be.

It's all very tragic and whilst I agree that both Mr and Mrs McCann can appear sometimes to invite criticism a part of me does feel that if it is ever shown that they have in fact not done anything wrong then not only did they lose a daughter but they had some pretty horrid crap heaped upon them in the process.

Thanks for your reply. This whole situation is a deeply emotive subject and it's easy for most to get drawn into hurling challenges and insults and, as you say, lambasting for the sake of it. I'm sure I've done it myself but overall I strive for balance.

Re Ben Needham, judging by what I've read his mother has been in contact with the last 3 Prime Ministers and had very little substantive help. Yes his disappearance was a long time ago but Madeleine's is already 5 years ago and the McCanns do still have - or at least claim to have as the results of the SY assessment may well be something they regret - the ear of the Prime Minister. Ben's mother seems to have been fobbed off in much the same way a local council would fob off someone asking about planning permission.

Yes, the McCanns have had some pretty horrid crap but isn't there a large part of that they've brought on themselves in their actions and attitudes? Nobody is allowed to question them, the fund has been used for everything but finding Madeleine (as the SY review teams dismissal of M3's investigations seem to prove), they fudge and lie and change their stories constantly (NO colomboma despite using it very much against advice of police as a major part of the campaign logo?). They have questions to answer that they don't seem to be in a hurry to answer yet they seem very content to reap the rewards of their infamy. Instead of dodgy detectives and timewasting/stalling lawsuits against Amaral and Bennett surely they could have used the fund to search themselves with a couple of proper professionals? Whilst the thought of a child of mine languishing in the hands of a pedo gang for 5 years would horrify me I don't think I coudl ever give up searching, health and finances permitting. The McCanns seem to have their health and they've certainly had the finances yet they have channeled that money into the most ridiculous of schemes which seem designed purely to keep generating false leads and sightings. They very much have a case to answer and if that means some people lose control over their feelings and give them crap then I am afraid it is a very small price to pay for their actions.

by russiandoll 02.04.12 13:08

a well thought- out post nomendelta. From Kololi's recent response to a post of yours:

"your comment that you would have wished a speedy death for them. I do think that there is probably only a minority that would not wish her to be found as the ideal although people in general may think it unlikely after all this time that she will be. "

Why would anyone, let alone a minority, not wish for a child to be found if she is indeed out there, having been abducted as claimed? I think some people would prefer a speedy end to a life that was being detroyed by abuse than that a child should suffer, that was the meaning of what was said as I understood it and it is with a heavy heart that I must agree.