'Daddy, daddy' or 'Maddie, Maddie?'

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Will someone help me out here......

Is this the same evening as Gerry's flirting at the quiz?
Is this the same evening Kate said she slept alone?
Is this the same evening there was lots of(later deleted) phone activity?
Do
we know WHEN KM returned to the apartment(not just from Mrs Fenn's
(reasonable)reasoning that because the crying had stopped, a parent had
returned...?)
Could it have been Someone crying'Maddie, Maddie' ? And
they stop because someone else enters the apartment and tells them to
shut up because they are drawing attention to the situation?
Could
this be why there is an initial emphasis on the 'Madeleine cried ' story
to explain it away.... then unfortunately the story grew legs and
brought too much attention..'quote......she moved on'------then we are
told that she was rarely called 'Maddie' ........???









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Hi worriedmum. Just want to say that I don't believe the children were on their own.

Sun. Matt is sick......or babysitting.
Mon. They are all vague on, like Mon. never happened. Where was Kate?? babysittting???
Tues. Russell with sick child.......or babysitting.
Wed. Rachel is sick.....or babysitting.
Thurs. I believe Jane was near enough to the kids to keep an eye on them.

They were all UP on the first floor, the Paynes or another apt. we don't know about. 5J???

The negligence is a smokescreen. For what really went on.

Also stuff like GM flirting or whatever is just padding, imo. There conclusions were jumped to when a picture of that lady were printed. It's easy to get bogged down in unnecessary fluff, for want of a better word.

As to "Maddie" or "Daddy" you could be right. Have a look at Healys phone record for that night. She was up to something. She says she got upset with McCann on Wed. night. Again what is she covering up??

My take on this worriedmum, is that the crying could easily have been a recording. They knew Mrs Fenn would hear it from above. Job done. They needed other people to think the children were left on their own, when they were not. The crying was designed to ensure that everyone passing by the apartment, would also hear it. It stopped as soon as someone entered the room, why?, did someone push the stop button? All I think it is, is a distraction. Nothing more.

Makes sense Stella. The crying ended too abruptly, a stop button??? It's like a drama is acted out, the as to believe the negligent parents story so we have Madeleine asking where were you etc. They were following a script, imo.

Mon. They are all vague on, like Mon. never happened

I think the answer lies here...Monday the 30th April

Thank you, that is food for thought, although I personally think a recording is a bit hit and miss-what if no-one heard it?

I was just thinking maybe 5a was empty except for one or two people(!), something tragic happens...

Thinking aloud about how the Apt seemed empty to GA,lacking in personal pssessions, toys, food--is this because it had been emptied for extensive cleaning?And the twins were moved out...then someone in the group helps put the furniture back, but doesn't quite get it right, ie not as the cleaner had seen it previously? Would that explain why the twins had no cot sheets?(their own sheets were somewhere else where they had been recently sleeping until they were re-placed in their own bedroom? Is that where their toothbrushes were too?

Not hit and miss at all. 5A, lights on upstairs, they will hear Mrs Fenn moving around, you usually can hear the tv,even know whats on.
You have to think in terms of Portuguese apt's, the tiled floors make apt sharing cosy as in you can hear clearly noise from all around. Alot of the bricks used are honey combed ie with holes to let for expansion in heat. You can hear alot more than your immediate neighbours.

Praia wrote:Makes sense Stella. The crying ended too abruptly, a stop button??? It's like a drama is acted out, the as to believe the negligent parents story so we have Madeleine asking where were you etc. They were following a script, imo.

Precisely, a script is just the right word Praia!! If there was crying heard every night, I could believe it was real. But just the one night and for that long and only 1 child?, no way. With three children, 2 and 3 years of age and apart from that one incident, nothing. All that was needed was a laptop with speakers. A computer person could have downloaded anything from the internet and set it up to repeat for an hour and a half, turn up the volume and bingo.

Stella wrote:

Praia wrote:Makes sense Stella. The crying ended too abruptly, a stop button??? It's like a drama is acted out, the as to believe the negligent parents story so we have Madeleine asking where were you etc. They were following a script, imo.

Precisely, a script is just the right word Praia!! If there was crying heard every night, I could believe it was real. But just the one night and for that long and only 1 child?, no way. With three children, 2 and 3 years of age and apart from that one incident, nothing. All that was needed was a laptop with speakers. A computer person could have downloaded anything from the internet and set it up to repeat for an hour and a half, turn up the volume and bingo.

Puts to shreds their 15-30 mins checking! and proves neglect if for 75 mins on their 15-30 checks they heard nothing!!

You don't want to know the things I have heard from other apt's over the years.
My friend knows if the people three floors up are in.
It is not farfetched. Anyone in 5A would hear the British news music in Mrs Fenns and know what was on.

jd, one thing I know for sure is there was no checking.

Praia wrote:jd, one thing I know for sure is there was no checking.

Me too, just enjoy blowing their fairytale story up in smoke!

One thing about the crying date made me wonder if the abduction was meant to take place on the 2nd. Went wrong for some reason. So if there was a recording, which I think is the case, it was part of the 'storyline'.
The fact that both of them and the bewk also date the crying to the 2nd, that is the night before the abduction, make me very much wonder that this part of the plan went wrong.
Yet another reason I think the 2nd was the original date set, is that they are extremely wary of mentioning that date at all.
See McCannfiles, Dr. Roberts '30 days'
Thirty days hath September, April, June and November. The rest have thirty-one (except for May which, in 2007, was short by one Wednesday).

"Wednesday, 2 May, 2007. Our last completely happy day. Our last, to date, as a family of five." (Kate McCann in 'Madeleine' p.59).

Ripe for recollection, this particular Wednesday in May ought to feature conspicuously in the McCanns' various accounts of the truth, yet it does not; even in Kate McCann's recently published attempt at putting the record straight. Although the nocturnal shenanigans are ritually described, references to the diurnal aspect of that 'last completely happy (family) day' are conspicuous only by their near absence. The sentence quoted above is followed by two short paragraphs. And that's it. Heralded as a major event, Wednesday 2 May proves, in fact, to be something of a non-event.

O.K., so it rained. It's still possible to have family fun indoors, even in a small holiday apartment. Unless of course you are desperate to off-load the children so you can show off your new pink trainers down at the beach again with Matt, running the gauntlet of small dogs. That must have been a long run, taking up most of the morning, as the next thing that happens is "Gerry and I picked up the children, had lunch in the apartment and then took them to the play area for an hour before walking them to their clubs." (p.60). Tennis was rescheduled. "After that it was the usual routine: tea with the children, playtime, bath time, milk, stories, kids' bedtime, get ready, Tapas at 8.30 p.m."

And that, dear reader, is the extent of the family experience on Wednesday 2 May.

Some might consider an interval of several years adequate justification for poor recall, but such justification cannot apply to an interval of only one week! Here's what Gerry McCann had to say to Portuguese investigators on 10 May, 2007. Notice how Wednesday daytime fails to merit a mention:

"Concerning the routine, on Tuesday there was a slight change given that after lunch, at 13H30, the deponent and KATE decided to take the three children to Praia da Luz, having gone on foot, taking only the twins in baby buggies. They all left by the main door because of the buggies, went around to the right, down the street of the "BATISTA" supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.

"They were at the beach for about 20 minutes...

"On the day that MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time, between 07H30 and 08H00. When they were having breakfast, MADELEINE addressed her mother and asked her "why didn't you come last night when SEAN and I were crying?"

"On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children...

"He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom, with KATE, as she had told him that one or both twins were crying, making much noise.

"Back to Thursday..."

Back to Thursday. Without ever having visited Wednesday, either on the 10th or the week previously (the 4th), although Kate manages to mention it, just, during her earliest interview:

"Apart from that, on Wednesday or Thursday, Madeleine and the other children went sailing at the beach, five minutes away from the club, for an hour, in an event that was organised by the resort. The surveillance of this activity and the organisation were done by the club, and the deponent was not present, nor was her husband."

Not only are Wednesday and Thursday evidently interchangeable but, in terms of Madeleine's known whereabouts, that was a matter for resort staff, as neither Kate nor Gerry was present during the organised activity. (Gerry makes a comparable observation in his own 4 May statement).

The McCanns' 'last completely happy day' appears to have been dropped from the calendar, whilst confirmation of Madeleine's presence rests squarely with Mark Warner nannies. There are the creche registers of course (well, they exist at least), and the occasional 'sightings' by third parties.
snipped. see McCannfiles.

What happened on Wed. that Healy had to explain away with the dog bite episode? If she was bitten by a dog she could not have been running on the beach on Thurs. Difficult to run on sand, with an injured leg? No way.
So on Wed. she had to cover for some type of injury to her leg, however minor.
Did she have to buy disinfectant locally?

Back to the 1st: the day that might have been the day before the planned abduction on the 2nd.

Kate McCann mobile phone activity 01 May 2007
Mobile phone activity:

10:16:42, 11:56:06, 12:17:21,
19:45:03, 20:31:31, 20:33:32,
20:35:58, 20:37:24, 22:16:15,
22:23:15, 22:23:28, 22:24:22,
22:25:36 and 22:27:50
The crying started at 22.30

Mrs Pamela Fenn - statement, 20 August 2007

'She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.

Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.'

Now had the 'heist' been planned for the 2nd, I feel there's a lot that falls into place.
The narrative: which has Maddie crying the night before the abduction - this was blatantly moved to the 2nd instead of the 1st.
The studious avoidance of the last 'happy day as a family' in any of the interviews, see Dr.Robert's quote in my other post here.
The set-up crying - a child doesn't stop crying just like that. There are several options here, was Kate actually in the apartment - alone? Sorting out that flurry of phone calls (she was certainly near according to the pings), it's interesting that the phone calls stop just before the crying starts.
Was this evening when the body was taken away?
What went wrong - either that night or on the 2nd - if the original plan for the abduction on the second had to be moved to the 3rd?
For the silence about the 2nd of May is loud imo.

Stella wrote:My take on this worriedmum, is that the crying could easily have been a recording. They knew Mrs Fenn would hear it from above. Job done. They needed other people to think the children were left on their own, when they were not. The crying was designed to ensure that everyone passing by the apartment, would also hear it. It stopped as soon as someone entered the room, why?, did someone push the stop button? All I think it is, is a distraction. Nothing more.

I don't see a problem with a recording of a toddler crying, to cover up other things, but I think it is very very dodgy, a big risk to take, as a nabe or anyone within earshot, not just Mrs Fenn, could have insisted staff/security knock on the door, go in, and investigate. Same goes with the GNR, they could have banged on the door - stop button pressed by some fool, Cops say, what are you playing at, where is the crying child etc?

Nope.

Personally I'd I were mrs Fenn that night I would have gone down and knocked at the door myself, and if the crying stooped/continued I still would have gone to MW security.

Praia wrote:Makes sense Stella. The crying ended too abruptly, a stop button??? It's like a drama is acted out, the as to believe the negligent parents story so we have Madeleine asking where were you etc. They were following a script, imo.

One possible explanation is someone entered the room and a tantrum was gale force 9, a smack to the head, a fall onto hard tiles

Don't forget these doctors were consuming 8-12 bottles a night, 15 bottles of wine on the last night - nerves???

worriedmum wrote:Thank you, that is food for thought, although I personally think a recording is a bit hit and miss-what if no-one heard it?

I was just thinking maybe 5a was empty except for one or two people(!), something tragic happens...

Thinking aloud about how the Apt seemed empty to GA,lacking in personal pssessions, toys, food--is this because it had been emptied for extensive cleaning?And the twins were moved out...then someone in the group helps put the furniture back, but doesn't quite get it right, ie not as the cleaner had seen it previously? Would that explain why the twins had no cot sheets?(their own sheets were somewhere else where they had been recently sleeping until they were re-placed in their own bedroom? Is that where their toothbrushes were too?

Don't forget when Kate started wailing 'they've taken her' - 'we've let her down' - nanny Charlotte Pennington was the first on the scene and THERE WERE NO TWINS IN 5a

NONE

Where we're they?

IMHO IF Maddie was still alive the evening of the 3rd she was heavily sedated in 5a, twins heavily sedated somewhere else, that's what Matt O said to Kate, l go check on Her (instead of I'll go check on the children...)

What a tangled web we weave...

Stella wrote:

Praia wrote:Makes sense Stella. The crying ended too abruptly, a stop button??? It's like a drama is acted out, the as to believe the negligent parents story so we have Madeleine asking where were you etc. They were following a script, imo.

Precisely, a script is just the right word Praia!! If there was crying heard every night, I could believe it was real. But just the one night and for that long and only 1 child?, no way. With three children, 2 and 3 years of age and apart from that one incident, nothing. All that was needed was a laptop with speakers. A computer person could have downloaded anything from the internet and set it up to repeat for an hour and a half, turn up the volume and bingo.

I agree it is very easy to set up and remote control even

BUT WHAT IF THE GNR WENT IN OR HOTEL SECURITY WITH A PASS KEY

AND FOUND

???

An obvious game being played.

IMHO far too risky, the crying war real. Mrs Fenn was old, I bet if she'd benn 30 she would have gone down and knocked on the door, I know I would have.

tigger wrote:One thing about the crying date made me wonder if the abduction was meant to take place on the 2nd. Went wrong for some reason. So if there was a recording, which I think is the case, it was part of the 'storyline'.
The fact that both of them and the bewk also date the crying to the 2nd, that is the night before the abduction, make me very much wonder that this part of the plan went wrong.
Yet another reason I think the 2nd was the original date set, is that they are extremely wary of mentioning that date at all.
See McCannfiles, Dr. Roberts '30 days'
Thirty days hath September, April, June and November. The rest have thirty-one (except for May which, in 2007, was short by one Wednesday).

"Wednesday, 2 May, 2007. Our last completely happy day. Our last, to date, as a family of five." (Kate McCann in 'Madeleine' p.59).

Ripe for recollection, this particular Wednesday in May ought to feature conspicuously in the McCanns' various accounts of the truth, yet it does not; even in Kate McCann's recently published attempt at putting the record straight. Although the nocturnal shenanigans are ritually described, references to the diurnal aspect of that 'last completely happy (family) day' are conspicuous only by their near absence. The sentence quoted above is followed by two short paragraphs. And that's it. Heralded as a major event, Wednesday 2 May proves, in fact, to be something of a non-event.

O.K., so it rained. It's still possible to have family fun indoors, even in a small holiday apartment. Unless of course you are desperate to off-load the children so you can show off your new pink trainers down at the beach again with Matt, running the gauntlet of small dogs. That must have been a long run, taking up most of the morning, as the next thing that happens is "Gerry and I picked up the children, had lunch in the apartment and then took them to the play area for an hour before walking them to their clubs." (p.60). Tennis was rescheduled. "After that it was the usual routine: tea with the children, playtime, bath time, milk, stories, kids' bedtime, get ready, Tapas at 8.30 p.m."

And that, dear reader, is the extent of the family experience on Wednesday 2 May.

Some might consider an interval of several years adequate justification for poor recall, but such justification cannot apply to an interval of only one week! Here's what Gerry McCann had to say to Portuguese investigators on 10 May, 2007. Notice how Wednesday daytime fails to merit a mention:

"Concerning the routine, on Tuesday there was a slight change given that after lunch, at 13H30, the deponent and KATE decided to take the three children to Praia da Luz, having gone on foot, taking only the twins in baby buggies. They all left by the main door because of the buggies, went around to the right, down the street of the "BATISTA" supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.

"They were at the beach for about 20 minutes...

"On the day that MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time, between 07H30 and 08H00. When they were having breakfast, MADELEINE addressed her mother and asked her "why didn't you come last night when SEAN and I were crying?"

"On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children...

"He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom, with KATE, as she had told him that one or both twins were crying, making much noise.

"Back to Thursday..."

Back to Thursday. Without ever having visited Wednesday, either on the 10th or the week previously (the 4th), although Kate manages to mention it, just, during her earliest interview:

"Apart from that, on Wednesday or Thursday, Madeleine and the other children went sailing at the beach, five minutes away from the club, for an hour, in an event that was organised by the resort. The surveillance of this activity and the organisation were done by the club, and the deponent was not present, nor was her husband."

Not only are Wednesday and Thursday evidently interchangeable but, in terms of Madeleine's known whereabouts, that was a matter for resort staff, as neither Kate nor Gerry was present during the organised activity. (Gerry makes a comparable observation in his own 4 May statement).

The McCanns' 'last completely happy day' appears to have been dropped from the calendar, whilst confirmation of Madeleine's presence rests squarely with Mark Warner nannies. There are the creche registers of course (well, they exist at least), and the occasional 'sightings' by third parties.
snipped. see McCannfiles.

So KISS

the Crying was interminable on the first, mrs Fenn reports t later, 75 mInutes of maddening crying afraid and in a right old state

Parents return inebriated, whack, accident or worse

2nd panic stations, flurry of calls to London and various lodges in Leicester and Scotland to call in favours
AMPLE TIME FOR FO G BROON SEC SVCS CONSULS ETC TO PREPARE A COVERUP

2nd is a parallel universe day. A non-day, want there a sorts of misdirection on the beach and so on

On this day maybe a sub is used, next day too, or simply distract nannies at the crèche

Hence all the weird signings in different names and outright forgeries in the cre cre he forms

Thursday is d day

They all get almost paralytic

15 bottles of wine plus aperitifs, brandies etc to steady the nerves

The faked abduction begins but murph us law kicks in

All sorts of f@@@ ups happen, alibis changed on the fly to suit

As Murat said the biggest fuckup in history

As GM said to nannie Healey. There's been a disaster. A disaster.

Noting in first words about Maddie


Anyways, because GM govt and uk plc and telegraph and DDR and sky were ready from the fit go at midnight on the 3rd

No way did Maddie die on the 3rd

Back to the 1st for me


God rest her soul :o(((((((

Sorry for mistakes am on lousy phone

I'd forgotten about this. The slimy snake mitchell said of the crying on 1st May ""Equally, one of the friends, Rachael Oldfield, was in the apartment next door in a bedroom adjacent to the wall where Madeleine was in her bedroom and she heard no crying at all all night."

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It does seem peculiar that snake mitchell has specifically identified Rachael Oldfield - why not simply say that the Oldfield's were next door and heard nothing? If she heard nothing all night, then she must have been there all night. If so, where was her husband? If Mrs Oldfield was alone, it would suggest she was alone for a reason. After all, we have been told, first hand by Kate, that they were operating a system. She said: "We all knew what we had to do, what we would do and.. you know, it worked as a system we had going and it just seemed totally right somehow".

Could it be that Mrs Oldfield was babysitting?

jd wrote:I'd forgotten about this. The slimy snake mitchell said of the crying on 2nd May ""Equally, one of the friends, Rachael Oldfield, was in the apartment next door in a bedroom adjacent to the wall where Madeleine was in her bedroom and she heard no crying at all all night."

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It does seem peculiar that snake mitchell has specifically identified Rachael Oldfield - why not simply say that the Oldfield's were next door and heard nothing? If she heard nothing all night, then she must have been there all night. If so, where was her husband? If Mrs Oldfield was alone, it would suggest she was alone for a reason. After all, we have been told, first hand by Kate, that they were operating a system. She said: "We all knew what we had to do, what we would do and.. you know, it worked as a system we had going and it just seemed totally right somehow".

Could it be that Mrs Oldfield was babysitting?

Why not? They're all too cheap to hire babysitters. But then again GM or km didn't trust babysitters, in fact the very same girls who looked after their children every day.

The simple answer IS - they don't want any pesky babysitters knowing what they were all really getting up to in the evenings.

Same thing during daylight hours, all of these so-called 'parents' saw their kids as they were all in morning and afternoon gulags.

What disgusting behaviour by all these so-called 'doctors'

Tick tock.......

But then again GM or km didn't trust babysitters

Why not? they trusted the same nannies during the day to look after their kids while they were playing tennis and running LOL

tick tock tick tock

jd wrote:

But then again GM or km didn't trust babysitters

Why not? they trusted the same nannies during the day to look after their kids while they were playing tennis and running LOL

tick tock tick tock

One more thing


Witness statement of Pamela Fenn PJ Files

Processo IX, pages 2412 to 2414

Date: 2007/08/20
Time: 15H30

Comes before the Court as a witness.

Being of British nationality and in spite of living in Portugal, does not have knowledge of the Portuguese language in its oral and written form, therefore a police interpreter is present, LIEVE VAN LOOCK.

Thus, according to the facts noted in the files, she says that she has lived in the apartment since 2003, which is located on the upper floor, immediately above the room from which the child disappeared.

She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.

Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive,

LOUDER AMD MORE EXPRESSIVE DOES NOT SEEM LIKE A TAPE LOOP TO ME

SORRY FOR CAPITALS BUT I AM HALF BLIND AND IT IS EASIER TO TYPE FOR ME


he child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

GRADUALLY GOT WORSE MUST BE SOMEONE ON REMOTE CONTROL TURNING THE KNOB UP TO 11



I THINK THIS BIT IS VERY IMPORTANT, she heard the patio doors open, now these doors can only be opened of they have been left UNLOCKED all night, and by what mmrs Fenn is saying , we can infer from all other evidence and statements that the patio door were left UNLOCKED EVERY NIGHT

" At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."

See above, heard the patio doors open, then COMPLETE SILENCE


DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU FOLKS BUT A TODDLER IN SUCH DISTRESS DOES NOT JUST STOP CRYING LIKE A ROBOT

A TODDLER WINDS DOWN

MAYBE EVEN STARTS UP AGAIN

I DON'T BUT THIS COMPLETE SILENCE

SOMETHING HAPPENED I THINK AT THIS POINT IN TIME ON THE 1st

Cheers!

A