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PM reopens Maddie files

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 14:28

@admin wrote:
@Ringo wrote:
candyfloss wrote:So he led the dogs until he finally got an alert out of them

He also led the dogs into various different apartments and villa's, namely the tapas 7, Robert Murat, and even the new villa the mccanns were in, no alerts at any of them. Only at 5a the original apartment from where Madeleine disappeared. Strange that!!!

So, basically what you are saying Ringo is that Martin Grimes purposely wanted to incriminate the McCanns, if he led them to the car, why on earth would he do that? What difference would it make to him whether the dogs alerted anywhere or nowhere.

I am only saying what I saw, and it looked very much to me like Grime allowed bias (wittingly or unwittingly) to influence the dog alerts.

I am not going to comment any further on Grime than that.

It doesn't matter now - no evidence was found. That is really the only thing that matters.





What are these markers?


Hehe he, that's probably where the dogs were barking and it was their saliva laugh is that right Ringo big grin

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Redgoblin on 13.05.11 14:30

@Ringo wrote:
Stella wrote:
@Ringo wrote:
It's interesting though that Grime stopped by the McCanns car for so long though don't you think? He didnt walk on as he had with the other cars, didn't follow the dog on to the cars that it had run towards - why was that? Could it have anything to do with the fact that the car was plastered in posters of Madeleine? Anyway - all now completely irrelevant as no evidence was found.



Plastered in posters, you are so hillarious.

Evidence was found in the car Ringo, corpse bodily fluids with 15 markers matching to Madeleine. Get over it.

This is all very neatly diverting away from the question I posed to you some pages back which is why would the McCanns have been lobbying hard for a full and independent review of the case if they were guilty. Perhaps you could let me have your opinion on that subject first before we go any further?


A review is just what it says on the tin - if SY find nothing of interest they will not re-open the case.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 14:36

@Ringo wrote:
This is all very neatly diverting away from the question I posed to you some pages back which is why would the McCanns have been lobbying hard for a full and independent review of the case if they were guilty. Perhaps you could let me have your opinion on that subject first before we go any further?


Well considering you started this whole thing about the dogs with this...............

[quote Ringo]
Ask yourself - who is it who claimed the dogs had 100% success rate? Could it be that it was their owner, the man who makes £££ from hiring them in criminal investigations like this one? Please do not fall for the spin about these dogs. All your instincts are right, apart from the stumbling block about the dogs. They are not infallible. They were clearly led and directed in the investigation. Their alerts amount to nothing at all without corroborating evidence - even their owner at least admits this!.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 14:36

You'll forgive me I'm sure if I don't answer all the questions that you are all hitting me with especially the ones with the mocking emoticons.

Just to remind you


"Fernando Jose Pinto Monteiro, Portugal’s Attorney-General, told police to halt the investigation into of Madeleine’s disappearance.

A statement released by his office confirmed that it had decided to “close the file on the investigation concerning the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann due to lack of evidence that any crime was committed by the persons placed under formal investigation”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4373782.ece

Now, if someone could explain why the McCanns have been so desperate to have this case reviewed by the police if they were guilty - just one plausible, rational explanation would be great.

While you're at it, perhaps you could also strengthen your explanation with examples where criminals that got off scot-free have then lobbied similarly hard in the media and to the government for their criminal activities to be re-investigated by the police?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 14:41

candyfloss wrote:
@Ringo wrote:
This is all very neatly diverting away from the question I posed to you some pages back which is why would the McCanns have been lobbying hard for a full and independent review of the case if they were guilty. Perhaps you could let me have your opinion on that subject first before we go any further?


Well considering you started this whole thing about the dogs with this...............

[quote Ringo]
Ask yourself - who is it who claimed the dogs had 100% success rate? Could it be that it was their owner, the man who makes £££ from hiring them in criminal investigations like this one? Please do not fall for the spin about these dogs. All your instincts are right, apart from the stumbling block about the dogs. They are not infallible. They were clearly led and directed in the investigation. Their alerts amount to nothing at all without corroborating evidence - even their owner at least admits this!.

No Candyfloss - it was Stella who first brought up the dogs at 12.05 and then Wendy at 12.06 who said she could believe they were innocent if it weren't for the dogs. I was simply pointing out that the claim of 100% accuracy which she referenced had come from the man who profits from them. It is unusual for people in this day and age to be so completely taken in my the claims of the person selling the product.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Dougall on 13.05.11 14:42

@Ringo wrote:
@Dougall wrote:
@Ringo wrote: the dogs were clearly led and directed to alert to the car and the soft toy as anyone can see from watching the videos - it was all a complete shambles.


Then you can apply the same logic to state that they were "clearly led" to many other areas where they DIDN'T alert! When I saw the video I saw the handler focussing the dogs' attention on many different spots, they alerted when they detected something, not because the handler wanted them to!

You didn't see the dogs whizz by the first few cars as the handler strolled past them, and then as he stopped by the McCanns car and the dog whized past that one, he called it back - several times - until finally he got an alert out of it? WE must've been watching different videos then.

I was referring to the close work inside the car. And surely wih such small traces, a dog would have to be very close to detect them? How do you know the other vehicles were not scrutinized at close quarters? Have you seen all the raw footage?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Redgoblin on 13.05.11 14:43

@Ringo wrote:You'll forgive me I'm sure if I don't answer all the questions that you are all hitting me with especially the ones with the mocking emoticons.

Just to remind you


"Fernando Jose Pinto Monteiro, Portugal’s Attorney-General, told police to halt the investigation into of Madeleine’s disappearance.

A statement released by his office confirmed that it had decided to “close the file on the investigation concerning the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann due to lack of evidence that any crime was committed by the persons placed under formal investigation”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4373782.ece

Now, if someone could explain why the McCanns have been so desperate to have this case reviewed by the police if they were guilty - just one plausible, rational explanation would be great.

While you're at it, perhaps you could also strengthen your explanation with examples where criminals that got off scot-free have then lobbied similarly hard in the media and to the government for their criminal activities to be re-investigated by the police?

One could argue that the case is left flapping around in the Portuguese breeze as the UK authorities have done jack all since the McCann's returned to the UK, apart from getting some new witness statements - To be fair, the case has always been a Portuguese one and not a British one.

Leaving it flapping would be of some concern if the said parties 'were' guilty and wanted the matter ended. Same can be said if they were innocent it works both ways, which makes this case an interesting one.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by lj on 13.05.11 14:44

Ringo, ringo how naive of you to think when the McCanns say review they want a reopening. They don't want a reopening, they just want to get their fingers of what information they never got. And if anything is being "independently" reviewed they want it be done by the same idiots that screwed the investigation up the last time, and screwing up is a euphemism, cover up is probably more like the truth. Yes I mean "call me Stu" Prior and that certain forensic lab that made "mistake" on "mistake". Or do you really think that judging hair was not blond enough was just a very stupid mistake? I don't believe in all kind of complicated conspiracies, the McCanns are to much of nobodies for that. I do believe that many and important people fell for their sob story and later had difficulties trying to retract that because they did not want to look stupid.

If you know anything about dogs trained to search you will know they will not alarm if it isn't there. You can lead for example a drugs dog a hundred times in a car if it a has no drugs he won't alarm. On the other side if a dog is trained to find something and you cannot colaborate that with evidence fit for human understanding, you can bet it is because your methods are faulty. Good examples of that are the cancer search dogs that have alarmed on cases where no cancer was found until much later.

So yes Ring, we want a reopening, with independent Brits involved and no diplomatic interference.

Oh and yes, with parents and friends who cooperate.

But that will be only in dreams.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 14:44

@Ringo wrote:
Stella wrote:
@Ringo wrote:
It's interesting though that Grime stopped by the McCanns car for so long though don't you think? He didnt walk on as he had with the other cars, didn't follow the dog on to the cars that it had run towards - why was that? Could it have anything to do with the fact that the car was plastered in posters of Madeleine? Anyway - all now completely irrelevant as no evidence was found.



Plastered in posters, you are so hillarious.

Evidence was found in the car Ringo, corpse bodily fluids with 15 markers matching to Madeleine. Get over it.

This is all very neatly diverting away from the question I posed to you some pages back which is why would the McCanns have been lobbying hard for a full and independent review of the case if they were guilty. Perhaps you could let me have your opinion on that subject first before we go any further?

OK, let me nip this one in the bud right now.

The McCann's can lobby for anything they want. They claim to want a review, a review of what exactly? Not the investigation into them, that's for sure and that's the difference. They do not want the Portuguese investigation reopened. David Cameron is not claiming to be reopening the investigation, only the Portuguese Prosecutors can do that. What the PM said was:

"I have asked the Home Secretary to look into what more the Government could do to help Madeleine. She will be writing to you today, setting out new action involving the Metropolitan Police Service which we hope will help boost efforts in the search for Madeleine. I sincerely hope this fresh approach will provide the investigation with the new momentum that it needs".

It is not saying that the original investigation is being reopened.

It is not saying that the Metropolitan Police will be allowed to see the witheld part of the files either.

It is not even saying they have been assured by the Portuguese Prosecutors that they will ever be allowed to see the witheld part.

The McCann's and their PR team can request all they want, but until new evidence is brought to the attention of the Portuguese Prosecutor in Portugal, the case will never be opened.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by lj on 13.05.11 14:50

quote from Rigo:
This is all very neatly diverting away from the question I posed to you some pages back which is why would the McCanns have been lobbying hard for a full and independent review of the case if they were guilty. Perhaps you could let me have your opinion on that subject first before we go any further?

Ringo why, if they really wanted a reopening of the case, didn't they request for the case to stay open when they could? IIRC the period therefore was even prolonged.

Or why did n't they force their "friends" to participate in a reconstruction, which would have had the same result.

Or why didn't Kate call the Portuguese and say "you know what, I have nothing to hide and I want to answer those 48 questions, so you guys can keep going".


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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 14:51

@Ringo wrote:
@Redgoblin wrote:Hi this is my first post to the forum

Sorry to butt in, as some of you were talking about the dogs - I wanted to stay within the topic of this thread.

Despite the heartfelt pleas of GM and KM by having their own team investigate "some" of the files. Surely the PJ must have some evidence about the couple /group which they would obviously not want to share with the McCann's, I suppose that evidence could be incriminating and they wouldn't hand that information to private detectives - I assume it would be available to Scotland Yard.

Which raises the question - Why would the McCann's seek this out if they knew it might lead to their own arrests?

a) Either they are completely innocent and have nothing to lose.


Is the correct answer!
You can't possibly know that for certain. Nobody can, just as nobody can say for certain the opposite. You're showing you don't have an open mind by making categorical statements like this when discussing case, and if you don't have an open mind then you're a propagandist?Hi everybody, interesting forum!

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 14:56

@lj wrote:Ringo, ringo how naive of you to think when the McCanns say review they want a reopening. They don't want a reopening, they just want to get their fingers of what information they never got. And if anything is being "independently" reviewed they want it be done by the same idiots that screwed the investigation up the last time, and screwing up is a euphemism, cover up is probably more like the truth. Yes I mean "call me Stu" Prior and that certain forensic lab that made "mistake" on "mistake". Or do you really think that judging hair was not blond enough was just a very stupid mistake? I don't believe in all kind of complicated conspiracies, the McCanns are to much of nobodies for that. I do believe that many and important people fell for their sob story and later had difficulties trying to retract that because they did not want to look stupid.

If you know anything about dogs trained to search you will know they will not alarm if it isn't there. You can lead for example a drugs dog a hundred times in a car if it a has no drugs he won't alarm. On the other side if a dog is trained to find something and you cannot colaborate that with evidence fit for human understanding, you can bet it is because your methods are faulty. Good examples of that are the cancer search dogs that have alarmed on cases where no cancer was found until much later.

So yes Ring, we want a reopening, with independent Brits involved and no diplomatic interference.

Oh and yes, with parents and friends who cooperate.

But that will be only in dreams.

thumbsup clapping1

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 14:57

[quote]
Stella wrote:
OK, let me nip this one in the bud right now.

The McCann's can lobby for anything they want. They claim to want a review, a review of what exactly? Not the investigation into them, that's for sure and that's the difference. They do not want the Portuguese investigation reopened
.

The McCanns want a full and comprehensive review of EVERYTHING that is in the files - that means everything too that you believe incriminates them - everything.


David Cameron is not claiming to be reopening the investigation, only the Portuguese Prosecutors can do that. What the PM said was:

"I have asked the Home Secretary to look into what more the Government could do to help Madeleine. She will be writing to you today, setting out new action involving the Metropolitan Police Service which we hope will help boost efforts in the search for Madeleine. I sincerely hope this fresh approach will provide the investigation with the new momentum that it needs".

It is not saying that the original investigation is being reopened.

It is not saying that the Metropolitan Police will be allowed to see the witheld part of the files either.

It is not even saying they have been assured by the Portuguese Prosecutors that they will ever be allowed to see the witheld part.

The McCann's and their PR team can request all they want, but until new evidence is brought to the attention of the Portuguese Prosecutor in Portugal, the case will never be opened.

Yes all that may well be true, but it still doesn't answer the question - why would the Mccanns if guilty continue to badger the Home Secretary (three different ones!) and two PMs to assist them in finding their daughter? Where is the advantage to them if they are guilty versus getting on with their lives supposedly secure in the knowledge that they have got away with "the crime of the century"?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 15:01

tcat wrote:
@Ringo wrote:
@Redgoblin wrote:Hi this is my first post to the forum

Sorry to butt in, as some of you were talking about the dogs - I wanted to stay within the topic of this thread.

Despite the heartfelt pleas of GM and KM by having their own team investigate "some" of the files. Surely the PJ must have some evidence about the couple /group which they would obviously not want to share with the McCann's, I suppose that evidence could be incriminating and they wouldn't hand that information to private detectives - I assume it would be available to Scotland Yard.

Which raises the question - Why would the McCann's seek this out if they knew it might lead to their own arrests?

a) Either they are completely innocent and have nothing to lose.


Is the correct answer!
You can't possibly know that for certain. Nobody can, just as nobody can say for certain the opposite. You're showing you don't have an open mind by making categorical statements like this when discussing case, and if you don't have an open mind then you're a propagandist?Hi everybody, interesting forum!

There are poeple on this forum who are 100% certain that Madeleine is dead. And yet they have absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever. I would call these people closed minded, propagandists, certainly!

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 15:03

@Ringo wrote:Yes all that may well be true, but it still doesn't answer the question - why would the Mccanns if guilty continue to badger the Home Secretary (three different ones!) and two PMs to assist them in finding their daughter?
Maybe it would appear suspicious to their family or friends or legal teams and financial backers if they didn't?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Gracias on 13.05.11 15:04

tcat wrote:[quote="Ringo]Yes all that may well be true, but it still doesn't answer the question - why would the Mccanns if guilty continue to badger the Home Secretary (three different ones!) and two PMs to assist them in finding their daughter?
Maybe it would appear suspicious to their family or friends or legal teams and financial backers if they didn't?

And maybe they know Maddy will never be found.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 15:05

@Ringo wrote:

Yes all that may well be true, but it still doesn't answer the question - why would the Mccanns if guilty continue to badger the Home Secretary (three different ones!) and two PMs to assist them in finding their daughter? Where is the advantage to them if they are guilty versus getting on with their lives supposedly secure in the knowledge that they have got away with "the crime of the century"?


Your question, my answer:
Because they have the most expensive lawyers in the country and the best extradition lawyer money can buy in Europe, to ensure that they will never end up behind bars. This is all smoke and mirrors. If everyone believed their little story, they would have all gone away years ago. It is precisely because people do not buy their crap, many of which are working very hard behind the scenes to uncover new evidence to assist the Portuguese Police, that they have to continue with their little charade.

OK, next !

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 15:07

Hi tcat and Gracias,

welcome to you both,

welcome2


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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 15:17

tcat wrote:
@Ringo wrote:Yes all that may well be true, but it still doesn't answer the question - why would the Mccanns if guilty continue to badger the Home Secretary (three different ones!) and two PMs to assist them in finding their daughter?
Maybe it would appear suspicious to their family or friends or legal teams and financial backers if they didn't?

Why would it? They have been at this for four years and have been way more persistent and high-profile than many parents of other missing children have been. Surely by now, their family and friends would understand if they had decided to play it more low key by now?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 15:17

@Ringo wrote:
There are poeple on this forum who are 100% certain that Madeleine is dead.
I agree nobody can state that for certain, but you also have to agree you can't state for certain that her parents had nothing to do with her disappearance. If you don't agree with that, you're just spinning.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 15:28

Stella wrote:
@Ringo wrote:

Yes all that may well be true, but it still doesn't answer the question - why would the Mccanns if guilty continue to badger the Home Secretary (three different ones!) and two PMs to assist them in finding their daughter? Where is the advantage to them if they are guilty versus getting on with their lives supposedly secure in the knowledge that they have got away with "the crime of the century"?


Your question, my answer:
Because they have the most expensive lawyers in the country and the best extradition lawyer money can buy in Europe, to ensure that they will never end up behind bars. This is all smoke and mirrors. If everyone believed their little story, they would have all gone away years ago. It is precisely because people do not buy their crap, many of which are working very hard behind the scenes to uncover new evidence to assist the Portuguese Police, that they have to continue with their little charade.

OK, next !

I'm afraid that makes little or no sense. Who is paying for these lawyers? Who is protecting them in your view?

If they had gone away years ago, not written a book, not kept appearing on TV, not written letters, started petitions etc, most people would have forgotten about them and they would have sunk into obscurity. If they were guilty they got away with it when the Attorney General announced that there was no evidence that they had committed any crime and the PJ shelved the case. The PJ have done nothing since apart from mark information received from the McCanns' investigators as "not relevant".

As for the people you refer to working very hard to uncover new evidence to assist the Portuguese police I take it you mean people like Tony Bennett? How is that evidence gathering going? I see some of it on here, like the stuff on Ed Smethurst's garage and his local boozer and his friend of a friend Greg 'The Groomer'. Gosh, how the McCanns must be trembling in their boots!

The simple and obvious answer to why the McCanns have fought tirelessly for a complete, transparent and independent review of this case is that they want to find out what happened to their daughter, and hopefully to find her alive. It is the only reason.

Now I must leave it there for now.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 15:33

@Gracias wrote:
tcat wrote:[quote="Ringo]Yes all that may well be true, but it still doesn't answer the question - why would the Mccanns if guilty continue to badger the Home Secretary (three different ones!) and two PMs to assist them in finding their daughter?
Maybe it would appear suspicious to their family or friends or legal teams and financial backers if they didn't?

And maybe they know Maddy will never be found.
I don't know, but it's possible they're still not certain there won't one day be a trial and public opinion is still extremely important to them? Especially if they ever face a trial in Portugal? Public opinion in the UK would be vital to them if that happens. That might be why they can't just hope everyone forgets about them? Especially if they're still not sure exactly what is held in files in Portugal that were never made public (as mentioned earlier in the thread)?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 15:38

@Ringo wrote:
Stella wrote:
@Ringo wrote:

Yes all that may well be true, but it still doesn't answer the question - why would the Mccanns if guilty continue to badger the Home Secretary (three different ones!) and two PMs to assist them in finding their daughter? Where is the advantage to them if they are guilty versus getting on with their lives supposedly secure in the knowledge that they have got away with "the crime of the century"?


Your question, my answer:
Because they have the most expensive lawyers in the country and the best extradition lawyer money can buy in Europe, to ensure that they will never end up behind bars. This is all smoke and mirrors. If everyone believed their little story, they would have all gone away years ago. It is precisely because people do not buy their crap, many of which are working very hard behind the scenes to uncover new evidence to assist the Portuguese Police, that they have to continue with their little charade.

OK, next !

I'm afraid that makes little or no sense. Who is paying for these lawyers? Who is protecting them in your view?

If they had gone away years ago, not written a book, not kept appearing on TV, not written letters, started petitions etc, most people would have forgotten about them and they would have sunk into obscurity. If they were guilty they got away with it when the Attorney General announced that there was no evidence that they had committed any crime and the PJ shelved the case. The PJ have done nothing since apart from mark information received from the McCanns' investigators as "not relevant".

As for the people you refer to working very hard to uncover new evidence to assist the Portuguese police I take it you mean people like Tony Bennett? How is that evidence gathering going? I see some of it on here, like the stuff on Ed Smethurst's garage and his local boozer and his friend of a friend Greg 'The Groomer'. Gosh, how the McCanns must be trembling in their boots!

The simple and obvious answer to why the McCanns have fought tirelessly for a complete, transparent and independent review of this case is that they want to find out what happened to their daughter, and hopefully to find her alive. It is the only reason.

Now I must leave it there for now.


Talking of petitions, theirs has got over 50,000 signatures, or so I believe, Why did the Sun start one, and only got 20,000 and managed to persuade the PM. Why haven't they bothered handing theirs in. Didn't Clarence say, it would be when people stopped adding names, . How long is a piece of string, it seems they weren't in a rush with that! I

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 16:10

@Ringo wrote:

I'm afraid that makes little or no sense. Who is paying for these lawyers?
It is widely known that the McCann's fund is paying for all of their legal fees.

Who is protecting them in your view?
The McCann's are not being protected, if they were, forensics would not have found Madeleines DNA in their car. It is the people behind booking their little holiday are the ones being protected in my view.

If they had gone away years ago, not written a book, not kept appearing on TV, not written letters, started petitions etc, most people would have forgotten about them and they would have sunk into obscurity. If they were guilty they got away with it when the Attorney General announced that there was no evidence that they had committed any crime and the PJ shelved the case. The PJ have done nothing since apart from mark information received from the McCanns' investigators as "not relevant".

"Not relevant", because they are not buying their crap either. Goncalo Amaral has said many times that he has seen text messages confirming their involvement. But unfortunately, they were not allowed to use this evidence. There was "no political will to solve this case".

As for the people you refer to working very hard to uncover new evidence to assist the Portuguese police I take it you mean people like Tony Bennett? How is that evidence gathering going? I see some of it on here, like the stuff on Ed Smethurst's garage and his local boozer and his friend of a friend Greg 'The Groomer'. Gosh, how the McCanns must be trembling in their boots!

No, not that line of enquiry as such. But one that relates specifically to evidence already in the files that must have been overlooked.

The simple and obvious answer to why the McCanns have fought tirelessly for a complete, transparent and independent review of this case is that they want to find out what happened to their daughter, and hopefully to find her alive. It is the only reason.

It is not the only reason sadly and if you truly belive that you are being very naive. Look up the term "smoke and mirrors".

Now I must leave it there for now.

Yes, I guess your shift is over for today.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by tiny on 13.05.11 16:24

If the met are going to do the job as it should be done and not a white wash, does any one think the tapas pals are getting a little bit nervous now.

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