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PM reopens Maddie files

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by beejay on 13.05.11 12:01

@Ringo wrote:Does no one here see how "a joint INDEPENDENT, TRANSPARENT and COMPREHENSIVE review of ALL information held in relation to Madeleine's disappearance" might very well actually lead to the re-opening of the case?

Isn't this what you want?

It's what the McCanns want!

I'm not in the pro or anti McCann camp but as stated before, I was inclined to think from the evidence I have seen that there was a prima facie case for them to answer and the fact they had failed to co-operate with the Portuguese police investigation left them open to the suspicion that they had something to hide.

But I'm intrigued to learn of the latest developments which don't tie in with this theory at all - on the contrary, I'm starting to think they may be innocent after all, other than of being bad parents.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 12:05

@Ringo wrote:Does no one here see how "a joint INDEPENDENT, TRANSPARENT and COMPREHENSIVE review of ALL information held in relation to Madeleine's disappearance"


But you are forgetting Ringo that they have already done this and the British Criminal Profiler Lee Rainbow said that the parents should be considered as suspects. No sign of a break in, inconsistent stories, dog alerts, deleted calls and pictures and of course bodily corpse fluids with 15 markers matching to Madeleine in their hire car.

Why does it need to be done again?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 12:05

candyfloss wrote:
@Ringo wrote:Does no one here see how "a joint INDEPENDENT, TRANSPARENT and COMPREHENSIVE review of ALL information held in relation to Madeleine's disappearance" might very well actually lead to the re-opening of the case?

Isn't this what you want?

It's what the McCanns want!


I don't think that's what it is Ringo. I am more inclined to think they are going to re-open the investigation, look at the files sift all the evidence, and probably re-check the forensics and all the evidence gathered. The McCanns don't seem to think it is either, it is not exactly what they have been asking for.




The McCanns welcomed the announcement and thanked Mr Cameron and Ms May for committing “such a significant resource” to “begin this review process”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8510904/Scotland-Yard-brought-in-to-find-Madeleine-McCann.html



However, it does not yet represent the "independent, transparent and comprehensive review" which the couple had demanded from the Prime Minister.

A spokesman for the couple said: “It’s clearly a step in the right direction. The expertise of the Metropolitan police service is renowned and we are reassured by the Government’s commitment to the search for Madeleine.”

No, I know that, I was responding to the person who was saying that they only wanted a review not for the case to be re-opened. But I was pointing out that a review such as the one they want may very well lead to the case being re-opened. That would be the ultimate objective of a case review obviously - to join dots that had previously remained un-joined, uncover missed leads, etc and hope that these lead to the discovery of the missing child.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Wendy on 13.05.11 12:06

@beejay wrote:But I'm intrigued to learn of the latest developments which don't tie in with this theory at all - on the contrary, I'm starting to think they may be innocent after all, other than of being bad parents.

I have to say I could also be swayed into thinking they are innocent, if it wasn't for Eddie and Keela who both detected evidence in the same places. Ok, one dog may have got it wrong, but what are the chances that both dogs did?

No, I think the Mccann's have been telling, and re-telling, their big fat lie for 4 years that they honestly believe it. They live and breathe it every second of every day.

What a horrible life they must have.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 12:11

Stella wrote:
@Ringo wrote:Does no one here see how "a joint INDEPENDENT, TRANSPARENT and COMPREHENSIVE review of ALL information held in relation to Madeleine's disappearance"


But you are forgetting Ringo that they have already done this and the British Criminal Profiler Lee Rainbow said that the parents should be considered as suspects. No sign of a break in, inconsistent stories, dog alerts, deleted calls and pictures and of course bodily corpse fluids with 15 markers matching to Madeleine in their hire car.

Why does it need to be done again?

When has there ever been a full review of all the information held by the various police forces involved in the investigation? When was it compiled into one database and cross-referenced by fresh, independent eyes and minds?

As for the Lee Rainbow reference, that is a complete red herring - we are going back to 2007 there I believe! He was absolutely right when he said that the parents should be considered as suspects - I doubt though that he meant to the exclusion of all other possibilities! None of the list of "evidence" you refer to points in anyway to the McCanns being involved in their child's disappearance. This is a fact that some people really need to start facing and accepting.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 12:12

@Wendy wrote:
@beejay wrote:But I'm intrigued to learn of the latest developments which don't tie in with this theory at all - on the contrary, I'm starting to think they may be innocent after all, other than of being bad parents.

I have to say I could also be swayed into thinking they are innocent, if it wasn't for Eddie and Keela who both detected evidence in the same places. Ok, one dog may have got it wrong, but what are the chances that both dogs did?

No, I think the Mccann's have been telling, and re-telling, their big fat lie for 4 years that they honestly believe it. They live and breathe it every second of every day.

What a horrible life they must have.

I can't believe that all that prevents you from accepting what is blindingly obvious is the barking of two dogs - it really is absurd.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by nessa456 on 13.05.11 12:14

Will we even get to hear the results of the review though?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 12:26

@Ringo wrote:

When has there ever been a full review of all the information held by the various police forces involved in the investigation? When was it compiled into one database and cross-referenced by fresh, independent eyes and minds?

The British Police were there right from the start working side-by-side with the Portuguese Police. They ALL left Portugal the day after the McCann's flew home. Why do you think they did that? If Madeleine was still missing, surely they would stay around and keep looking for her right?. But, if they believed the McCann's were responsible, of course they would fly home. The proof is in the pudding.

As for the Lee Rainbow reference, that is a complete red herring - we are going back to 2007 there I believe! He was absolutely right when he said that the parents should be considered as suspects - I doubt though that he meant to the exclusion of all other possibilities!

The job of a Criminal Profiler is, to check every piece of evidence they have and from previous experience to suggest who is responsible. It is not a red herring. Lee Rainbow is a highly credited Profiler and has worked on numerous big murder cases in this country.

None of the list of "evidence" you refer to points in anyway to the McCanns being involved in their child's disappearance. This is a fact that some people really need to start facing and accepting.

No Ringo, it is not a fact. It is something you have chosen to believe. What is a fact is, that 15 markers which matched to Madeleine, found in their hire car would have led to their immediate arrests, if this had happened in the USA. They will convict on as little as 13 markers and 11 in some states. They were very lucky that Portugal currently requires 19 markers.

This is why the case was shelved.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 12:32

@Ringo wrote:
@Wendy wrote:
@beejay wrote:But I'm intrigued to learn of the latest developments which don't tie in with this theory at all - on the contrary, I'm starting to think they may be innocent after all, other than of being bad parents.

I have to say I could also be swayed into thinking they are innocent, if it wasn't for Eddie and Keela who both detected evidence in the same places. Ok, one dog may have got it wrong, but what are the chances that both dogs did?

No, I think the Mccann's have been telling, and re-telling, their big fat lie for 4 years that they honestly believe it. They live and breathe it every second of every day.

What a horrible life they must have.

I can't believe that all that prevents you from accepting what is blindingly obvious is the barking of two dogs - it really is absurd.

What is absurd, is that you refuse to read the evidence and challenge everyone else who has.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by biker_don on 13.05.11 12:33

Stuart Prior "I have arrested people for less"

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 12:37

Stella wrote:
@Ringo wrote:

When has there ever been a full review of all the information held by the various police forces involved in the investigation? When was it compiled into one database and cross-referenced by fresh, independent eyes and minds?

The British Police were there right from the start working side-by-side with the Portuguese Police. They ALL left Portugal the day after the McCann's flew home. Why do you think they did that? If Madeleine was still missing, surely they would stay around and keep looking for her right?. But, if they believed the McCann's were responsible, of course they would fly home. The proof is in the pudding.

As for the Lee Rainbow reference, that is a complete red herring - we are going back to 2007 there I believe! He was absolutely right when he said that the parents should be considered as suspects - I doubt though that he meant to the exclusion of all other possibilities!

The job of a Criminal Profiler is, to check every piece of evidence they have and from previous experience to suggest who is responsible. It is not a red herring. Lee Rainbow is a highly credited Profiler and has worked on numerous big murder cases in this country.

None of the list of "evidence" you refer to points in anyway to the McCanns being involved in their child's disappearance. This is a fact that some people really need to start facing and accepting.

No Ringo, it is not a fact. It is something you have chosen to believe. What is a fact is, that 15 markers which matched to Madeleine, found in their hire car would have led to their immediate arrests, if this had happened in the USA. They will convict on as little as 13 markers and 11 in some states. They were very lucky that Portugal currently requires 19 markers.

This is why the case was shelved.

Perhaps you could explain why the Attorney General said this then?

'In an order issued today ... the investigation into the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann has been halted because no evidence was discovered of any crime committed by the suspects.'

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 12:40

Stella wrote:
@Ringo wrote:
@Wendy wrote:
@beejay wrote:But I'm intrigued to learn of the latest developments which don't tie in with this theory at all - on the contrary, I'm starting to think they may be innocent after all, other than of being bad parents.

I have to say I could also be swayed into thinking they are innocent, if it wasn't for Eddie and Keela who both detected evidence in the same places. Ok, one dog may have got it wrong, but what are the chances that both dogs did?

No, I think the Mccann's have been telling, and re-telling, their big fat lie for 4 years that they honestly believe it. They live and breathe it every second of every day.

What a horrible life they must have.

I can't believe that all that prevents you from accepting what is blindingly obvious is the barking of two dogs - it really is absurd.

What is absurd, is that you refuse to read the evidence and challenge everyone else who has.

OK Stella, please explain the reason why the McCanns have been lobbying the government to a review of the case?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by biker_don on 13.05.11 12:43

@Ringo wrote:'In an order issued today ... the investigation into the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann has been halted because no evidence was discovered of any crime committed by the suspects.'

Where did you get that?


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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by beejay on 13.05.11 12:43

@Ringo wrote:
@Wendy wrote:
@beejay wrote:But I'm intrigued to learn of the latest developments which don't tie in with this theory at all - on the contrary, I'm starting to think they may be innocent after all, other than of being bad parents.

I have to say I could also be swayed into thinking they are innocent, if it wasn't for Eddie and Keela who both detected evidence in the same places. Ok, one dog may have got it wrong, but what are the chances that both dogs did?

No, I think the Mccann's have been telling, and re-telling, their big fat lie for 4 years that they honestly believe it. They live and breathe it every second of every day.

What a horrible life they must have.

I can't believe that all that prevents you from accepting what is blindingly obvious is the barking of two dogs - it really is absurd.

Sorry Ringo - you were making some interesting points until this one. To trivialise the evidence from trained cadaver & blood dogs with a 100% success rate as "two dogs barking" is absurd and doesn't help your argument in the least.

However, I have still not seen anyone come up with a good reason why the McCanns should risk everything by promoting a new police investigation which is bound to raise all the question marks against them as suspects all over again.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 12:50

@beejay wrote:
@Ringo wrote:
@Wendy wrote:
@beejay wrote:But I'm intrigued to learn of the latest developments which don't tie in with this theory at all - on the contrary, I'm starting to think they may be innocent after all, other than of being bad parents.

I have to say I could also be swayed into thinking they are innocent, if it wasn't for Eddie and Keela who both detected evidence in the same places. Ok, one dog may have got it wrong, but what are the chances that both dogs did?

No, I think the Mccann's have been telling, and re-telling, their big fat lie for 4 years that they honestly believe it. They live and breathe it every second of every day.

What a horrible life they must have.

I can't believe that all that prevents you from accepting what is blindingly obvious is the barking of two dogs - it really is absurd.

Sorry Ringo - you were making some interesting points until this one. To trivialise the evidence from trained cadaver & blood dogs with a 100% success rate as "two dogs barking" is absurd and doesn't help your argument in the least.

However, I have still not seen anyone come up with a good reason why the McCanns should risk everything by promoting a new police investigation which is bound to raise all the question marks against them as suspects all over again.

Ask yourself - who is it who claimed the dogs had 100% success rate? Could it be that it was their owner, the man who makes £££ from hiring them in criminal investigations like this one? Please do not fall for the spin about these dogs. All your instincts are right, apart from the stumbling block about the dogs. They are not infallible. They were clearly led and directed in the investigation. Their alerts amount to nothing at all without corroborating evidence - even their owner at least admits this!

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 12:53

@biker_don wrote:Stuart Prior "I have arrested people for less"

Precisely

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by biker_don on 13.05.11 12:54

@Ringo wrote:Ask yourself - who is it who claimed the dogs had 100% success rate? Could it be that it was their owner, the man who makes £££ from hiring them in criminal investigations like this one? Please do not fall for the spin about these dogs. All your instincts are right, apart from the stumbling block about the dogs. They are not infallible. They were clearly led and directed in the investigation. Their alerts amount to nothing at all without corroborating evidence - even their owner at least admits this!

Are you saying that both dogs were wrong in all of the same places they both alerted to?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 12:59


A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the
Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation



Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.

10 September 2007
(Processo: VOL ,X, p. 2587-2602)



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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Guest on 13.05.11 13:04

@Ringo wrote:
All your instincts are right, apart from the stumbling block about the dogs. They are not infallible. They were clearly led and directed in the investigation. Their alerts amount to nothing at all without corroborating evidence - even their owner at least admits this!

And they did find evidence. Both dogs alerted to the boot of the car and they found bodily fluids consistent with a previously frozen cadaver.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by beejay on 13.05.11 13:08

[/quote]

Ask yourself - who is it who claimed the dogs had 100% success rate? Could it be that it was their owner, the man who makes £££ from hiring them in criminal investigations like this one? Please do not fall for the spin about these dogs. All your instincts are right, apart from the stumbling block about the dogs. They are not infallible. They were clearly led and directed in the investigation. Their alerts amount to nothing at all without corroborating evidence - even their owner at least admits this![/quote]

Are you insinuating that Martin Grimes concocted the evidence? That makes you a conspiracy theorist!

I don't buy that at all - why would MG cause the dogs to alert in such a high profile case when there was every chance he could be found out and his reputation shattered?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 13:09

@biker_don wrote:
@Ringo wrote:Ask yourself - who is it who claimed the dogs had 100% success rate? Could it be that it was their owner, the man who makes £££ from hiring them in criminal investigations like this one? Please do not fall for the spin about these dogs. All your instincts are right, apart from the stumbling block about the dogs. They are not infallible. They were clearly led and directed in the investigation. Their alerts amount to nothing at all without corroborating evidence - even their owner at least admits this!

Are you saying that both dogs were wrong in all of the same places they both alerted to?

Not wrong necessarily - they have both been trained to alert to blood, they probably alerted to blood - but who knows and who knows whose blood they may have been alerting to? Many of the items that they alerted to were handled incorrectly, laid out on the floor of a car park, packed in boxes that had previously been used, the dogs were clearly led and directed to alert to the car and the soft toy as anyone can see from watching the videos - it was all a complete shambles.

There was no evidence of any blood or body fluid pertaining to Madeleine McCann found - that is the bottom line. NO EVIDENCE.

But I'm not here to get into a long and forensic discussion about the dog alerts.

I'll go back to the original point I commented on - why would the McCanns be begging the government for a full, independent and transparent review of the case if they were guilty?

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 13:11

Stella wrote:

A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the
Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation



Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.

10 September 2007
(Processo: VOL ,X, p. 2587-2602)



Does the above earlier interim report trump the subsequent findings of the Attorney General?

'In an order issued today ... the investigation into the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann has been halted because no evidence was discovered of any crime committed by the suspects.'


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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 13:12

Stella wrote:
@Ringo wrote:
All your instincts are right, apart from the stumbling block about the dogs. They are not infallible. They were clearly led and directed in the investigation. Their alerts amount to nothing at all without corroborating evidence - even their owner at least admits this!

And they did find evidence. Both dogs alerted to the boot of the car and they found bodily fluids consistent with a previously frozen cadaver.

No they did not.

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by Ringo on 13.05.11 13:16

@beejay wrote:


Are you insinuating that Martin Grimes concocted the evidence? That makes you a conspiracy theorist!

I don't buy that at all - why would MG cause the dogs to alert in such a high profile case when there was every chance he could be found out and his reputation shattered?[/quote]

Of course I'm not saying that. What I did say is that he has a vested interest in maintaining that his dogs are 100% reliable. And - I do believe that he was perhaps over-eager for his dogs to prove their usefulness - look at the video of him calling the dog back to the Scenic - he virtually has to force it to take an interest in the car, he one plastered in posters of Madeleine McCann. Why wasn't he so insistent they gave all the other cars similar attention? I certainly don't believe he was concocting evidence because no evidence was actually discovered!

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Re: PM reopens Maddie files

Post by ufercoffy on 13.05.11 13:21

Ringo, I think you've been reading too much of Chief McCann supporter 'crazytony's' blog, you're practically quoting it word for word now winkwink

____________________
Whose cadaver scent and bodily fluid was found in the McCann's apartment and hire car if not Madeleine's?  Shocked

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