Re: Leave No Stone Unturned

by Verdi 12.12.18 21:10

Tony Bennett wrote:Not again! That old chestnut, must be the 1001st time new members here have come up with that one.

Quite so, it makes you wonder if folk come here and comment just to be contrary.

It's a bit like saying .... 'I can't believe abuse is possible - a parent couldn't possibly do such a thing'.

The severity of the crime is the key, not mawkish sentimentality.

There is only one very serious crime that could possibly explain the level of protection we have witnessed in this case and that seed was sown by the McCanns themselves from the very beginning.

by Flossy 18.12.18 21:29

Verdi wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:Not again! That old chestnut, must be the 1001st time new members here have come up with that one.
Quite so, it makes you wonder if folk come here and comment just to be contrary.

It's a bit like saying .... 'I can't believe abuse is possible - a parent couldn't possibly do such a thing'.

The severity of the crime is the key, not mawkish sentimentality.

There is only one very serious crime that could possibly explain the level of protection we have witnessed in this case and that seed was sown by the McCanns themselves from the very beginning.

I am not trying to be contrary. I am stating my opinion. I come from a background in psychology and I approach this case from that background. I have my opinion and you have yours.

by Rogue-a-Tory 19.12.18 9:03

Tony Bennett wrote:
Flossy wrote:If this isn't an abduction I don't believe that multiple people could be involved in a cover up. The more people you have involved the more likely it is that the truth will surface.

Not again! That old chestnut, must be the 1001st time new members here have come up with that one.

It's been said time and again...

(a) That the history of hoaxes and cover-ups the world over is laden with large groups of people who have managed to keep dark and dirty secrets under wraps for long periods of time. Jimmy Savile?

(b) That in this case all that was necessary for an abduction hoax to be perpetrated was an agreement between the Tapas 9, one or two crèche nannies and certain staff from Mark Warner, and

(c) that no way would 50-plus PR staff (including the Head of the government media spin unit), lawyers, consular and embassy staff, secret service agencies, police officers, criminal profilers, staff from MI5, Special Branch, Control Risks Group and CEOP, counselling agencies, Mark Warner managers and others descend on Praia da Luz within the first week unless this was a high-level, government-organised cover up.

Get real

.

Agreed Tony, then there's also the superinaudibles

by **PeterMac** 19.12.18 9:37

How many people worked at Bletchley Park during WWII ? How many knew about it ? How many betrayed it ? (Even to their own families.)
The late Baroness Trumpington had one of the best cover stories. She told inquisitive young officers that she worked in the department which decided on Medals and Awards . . .

How many people have ever admitted they were spooks ? Either for 5 or 6.
How many genuine members of the SAS have ever said they were.

How many people know the truth about Dr Kelly, or Mike Todd, or Dunblane ?
In every case LOTS.

by Flossy 20.12.18 8:02

PeterMac wrote:How many people worked at Bletchley Park during WWII ? How many knew about it ? How many betrayed it ? (Even to their own families.)
The late Baroness Trumpington had one of the best cover stories. She told inquisitive young officers that she worked in the department which decided on Medals and Awards . . .

How many people have ever admitted they were spooks ? Either for 5 or 6.
How many genuine members of the SAS have ever said they were.

How many people know the truth about Dr Kelly, or Mike Todd, or Dunblane ?
In every case LOTS.

In the initial examples you have used those are secrets kept which, if leaked, could have a significant impact of national security. I don't understand the references at the bottom of your post (Dunblane etc)
If you look at the psychology of keeping secrets.... I think it was George Orwell who wrote "If you want to keep a secret, you must also hide it from yourself." Any secret is hard to keep, and depending on the content of the secret, it can also be extremely psychological stressful. It also should be noted that humans are not by their nature, altruistic. By that I mean true altruistic acts are rare. We usually only do something because we judge that it would be better for us if we do it. Given that, to keep a secret really you need at least one or more of the following:
Perceived extreme consequences if it is not kept
Perceived threat to oneself or loved ones if it not kept
Perception that it is for the greater good or that there is a great benefit to keeping the secret
Training in deceiving/resisting interrogation etc.
In your first examples it is plain to see why those people kept their secrets.. The consequences for them (and the country) are likely to be dire.
I don't understand why, in this case, it is perceived that, there is a multi-level cover up. If MM wasn't abducted then I can understand why GM and KM may have something to hide. Their tapas friends only need "prove" that they weren't neglecting their children by leaving their children unattended. Hence the varied timelines and queries about if and when the children were checked on. Unless GM and KM have a strong influence or threat over their friends I don't see how they can involve them. If, as I have read on here, this goes higher up.... Say to governmental level, then why would the government or anyone in authority need to cover this up? They would definately have the ability to place duress on any one who knows the truth but then I go back to the question of why? I am sorry I am trying to catch up on a lot of reading on here to try and understand different people's opinions.

by Liz Eagles 20.12.18 14:48

It's not just what you know.

It's not just who you know.

It is what you know about who you know.

How about that for a theory.

by Flossy 20.12.18 21:04

aquila wrote:It's not just what you know.

It's not just who you know.

It is what you know about who you know.

How about that for a theory.

Could you elaborate further please.

by Liz Eagles 21.12.18 1:05

Flossy wrote:
aquila wrote:It's not just what you know.

It's not just who you know.

It is what you know about who you know.

How about that for a theory.
Could you elaborate further please.

No. I have no wish to write a thesis.

by Verdi 15.01.19 14:24

Karen Lamena Elaine McCalman (family friend) witness statement - 14th May 2008

I have known Kate McCann and her daughter Madeleine for about two and a half years. At that time the McCANN family lived in Queniborough. Kate and I knew each other from the local group of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] group of toddlers at Charnwood. We got on well with each other and we became friends.

We met at least once a week and we frequented each other's homes. I took care of Madeleine some afternoons or days.

by Verdi 15.01.19 14:32

Hayley Jane Plummer witness statement - 6th May 2008

Occupation: Nursery School Teacher

I work as a teacher at Laurels Nursery School, Melton Road, Queniborough, Leicestershire. I have worked full time for almost eight or nine years. I work alone in a class room and have eight children under my responsibility every day.

Laurels nursery school receives children aged between 6 weeks and school age and is divided in various classrooms in different buildings, where the children are grouped according to age and aptitude. I have worked in all the classrooms with children of all ages and at the moment I am in charge of children aged from 3 to 5 years.

I got to know Madeleine and her parents Kate and Gerry at the nursery school. I also spent time with them socially because my boyfriend James is Kateâ€

s cousin. As a couple, James and I would take care of Madeleine and the twins in their house in Rothley about every two months, for a few hours each time. We would arrive at the house at about 19.00 â€“ 19.30 when the twins were already asleep, but Madeleine was waiting for us and would be up for about half an hour. The routine followed would be to brush her teeth and tell her a story or two before going to sleep, followed by a brief passage through the twins room. Once she was alone Madeleine would generally fall asleep after 10 minutes and during my stays in their house she would never get out of bed after having fallen asleep. She would always sleep in her room. I do not remember Madeleine having been difficult when we were there.

Madeleine initially went to the nursery in the mornings but as she got older she would spend the whole day on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday at the nursery â€“ which she enjoyed very much. Kate would take care of Madeleine on Mondays and Fridays, often taking her for swimming lessons. I have known Madeleine for about three years and she was always under my responsibility at the Laurels nursery.

Kate and Gerry would take turns in dropping off and fetching her from the nursery.

by Verdi 15.01.19 14:35

Sharon Lewin witness statement - 21st April 2008

Occupation: Teaching Assistant

I am the person referred to above and I work as a teaching assistant at Laurels Nursery School, Melton Road, Queniborough, Leicestershire. The nursery school has the capacity to receive about 80 children full-time, aged between 6 weeks and 5 years and is open from 07.30 to 18.00 daily. The children are grouped according to age and I work in the section that looks after children aged between two and half and three years old. I have worked at the nursery for five years and I am currently on maternity leave.

I got to know Madeleine and her parents Kate and Gerry through my work at the nursery school. Madeleine started at the nursery when she was about two years old.

When she was two and a half she joined the group supervised by me, I think it was in 2006, and she remained there for about 6 months. Madeleine attended on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays.

She would be dropped off between 08.00 and 08.30 and would return home at about 17.00. The dropping off and picking up was taken in turns by the parents and as a result of this Kate and Gerry asked me to take care of the children during the evening on some occasions. Kate would pick Madeleine up from the nursery at the end of the day and I would accompany them to their house. We would have tea and I would help give Madeleine her bath.

Kate and Gerry would go out and I would watch a DVD with the girl before telling her a bedtime story.

I think I did this about 5 times and on each occasion it was at their home in Rothley.

by crispbee2000 01.02.19 23:27

Anyone seen anything that gives a clue as to why the PJ took such interest in the Irwin sisters when questioning some of the T7?

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Post moved. Mod

by sar 02.02.19 14:20

Verdi wrote:Sharon Lewin witness statement - 21st April 2008

Occupation: Teaching Assistant

I am the person referred to above and I work as a teaching assistant at Laurels Nursery School, Melton Road, Queniborough, Leicestershire. The nursery school has the capacity to receive about 80 children full-time, aged between 6 weeks and 5 years and is open from 07.30 to 18.00 daily. The children are grouped according to age and I work in the section that looks after children aged between two and half and three years old. I have worked at the nursery for five years and I am currently on maternity leave.

I got to know Madeleine and her parents Kate and Gerry through my work at the nursery school. Madeleine started at the nursery when she was about two years old.

When she was two and a half she joined the group supervised by me, I think it was in 2006, and she remained there for about 6 months. Madeleine attended on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays.

She would be dropped off between 08.00 and 08.30 and would return home at about 17.00. The dropping off and picking up was taken in turns by the parents and as a result of this Kate and Gerry asked me to take care of the children during the evening on some occasions. Kate would pick Madeleine up from the nursery at the end of the day and I would accompany them to their house. We would have tea and I would help give Madeleine her bath.

Kate and Gerry would go out and I would watch a DVD with the girl before telling her a bedtime story.

I think I did this about 5 times and on each occasion it was at their home in Rothley.

...a quick count means a child spends 3 "full" days a week out of seven away from parents. Plus say two nights a week being bathed, babysat and put to bed. >50% of time the child is not with the parents....

by birdguts88 06.02.19 14:09

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

An unusually long mortise key is observed on the key cluster. This key is typical of the older doors, perhaps pre 20th century. I could not find a matching key hole in apartment 5A and other vacationers inform that no other keys are needed to access other parts of the complex. The photo was taken by the police of the PJ a couple of hours after the disappearance. The keys may correspond to a building in the United Kingdom even if the home of the family in the United Kingdom appears to be relatively modern (a couple of decades). I was wondering if any comments on this photo and in particular on the long key had already been discussed before? Did the PJ ask any questions about the key? There was a thesis according to which the church had access on the night of the disappearance.

by Verdi 06.02.19 23:46

Birdguts88 (what a dreadful user name) welcome

to the forum.

I have moved your post here because it doesn't appear to be directly relevant to the thread you selected.

Having said that, sorry to say but I'm confused. The link you provide is, as you know, photographic evidence only - is the remains of your commentary a quote from elsewhere, a comment by your good self, or a combination of the two?

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting. A bunch of keys on a table - why would there be reason to think that the keys where in any way connected to the Ocean Club or it's environs? The photographs were taken on the morning of 4th May 2007, if you are intending to imply the keys were those given for access to the local church, do you really think they would be in the possession of the McCanns so early on Friday 4th May and worse still, left on a table for all to see - and photograph?

Perhaps if your able to clarify your point it might be worthy of discussion. As it stands it appears to be a non starter.

by birdguts88 07.02.19 7:08

Verdi wrote:Birdguts88 (what a dreadful user name) to the forum.

I have moved your post here because it doesn't appear to be directly relevant to the thread you selected.

Having said that, sorry to say but I'm confused. The link you provide is, as you know, photographic evidence only - is the remains of your commentary a quote from elsewhere, a comment by your good self, or a combination of the two?

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting. A bunch of keys on a table - why would there be reason to think that the keys where in any way connected to the Ocean Club or it's environs? The photographs were taken on the morning of 4th May 2007, if you are intending to imply the keys were those given for access to the local church, do you really think they would be in the possession of the McCanns so early on Friday 4th May and worse still, left on a table for all to see - and photograph?

Perhaps if your able to clarify your point it might be worthy of discussion. As it stands it appears to be a non starter.

As I understood, the main Portuguese investigator hypothesized that the parents actually had access to the church and that the body could be kept inside the church (a dead woman's coffin). Witnesses observed 3 figures entering the church in the early hours of May 4 and as well as a sighting of the Smith family around that area. There are two keys in the picture that stand out, that is, that are unusually long (so for a thick door) and for the ancient doors. It could be that in oversight, the keys were accidentally left on the table by the parents. I am surprised by the fact that the scrutiny-level armchair investigators have placed on this survey, but this important evidence is not discussed. Hence why I entered my post in the 'Cremation' forum.

by Verdi 07.02.19 11:31

You still haven't clarified if your OP is your commentary alone or otherwise. For example, you say ... " I could not find a matching key hole in apartment 5A and other vacationers inform that no other keys are needed to access other parts of the complex" - is this you talking or is it a precis from somebody or somewhere else?

Your post implies, at least to me, that you have first hand knowledge which is always very useful.

Meanwhile you might find this of interest..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Church doors

by Liz Eagles 07.02.19 12:10

What nonsense! As if a church has an ancient key!!!

by birdguts88 07.02.19 13:05

Verdi wrote:You still haven't clarified if your OP is your commentary alone or otherwise. For example, you say ... " I could not find a matching key hole in apartment 5A and other vacationers inform that no other keys are needed to access other parts of the complex" - is this you talking or is it a precis from somebody or somewhere else?

Your post implies, at least to me, that you have first hand knowledge which is always very useful.

Meanwhile you might find this of interest..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Church doors

Interesting! I seem to have been debunked. It may be interesting to see key holes of the other doors on the side. From the google view, the resolution is not high enough. I do not understand your question about my previous question. I said that I saw an online photo of keys and asked if the keys in the picture had ever been discussed in this case. I have also said that other vacationers inform that no other keys are needed for the complex. Why is it important to know what the sources are? Greetings

by Verdi 07.02.19 15:22

Interesting! I seem to have been debunked. It may be interesting to see key holes of the other doors on the side. From the google view, the resolution is not high enough. I do not understand your question about my previous question. I said that I saw an online photo of keys and asked if the keys in the picture had ever been discussed in this case. I have also said that other vacationers inform that no other keys are needed for the complex. Why is it important to know what the sources are? Greetings

Greetings in return!

I'm none the wiser so I'll bale out of this one but it's not important.

As I said, this is really a non starter. Much of the church debacle and later reference to a possible cremation - in particular a body being hidden in a deacesed woman's coffin, was largely media reportage which is generally less than reliable. For example this report was published by TVMais magazine in June 2014..

On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife. He had a friendship with McCann's family members. It was with him whom they spoke with. Some days later, Gerry and Kate received the church keys, and since then they were able to enter and leave at any time. A situation that was criticized by the Bishop of the Algarve at the time. When questioned on this discretionary act, the priest José Pacheco said: "Do I decide that?!"

McCanns visited the church in secret

"Although our pain feels much rawer here, it is comforting at the same time since we feel closer to Madeleine - we can read in a press statement sent to Lusa news agency in 12th December 2009, by the McCann's Portuguese PR, in connection to the couple's visit to the church. During the day, the visits were announced and followed by the media. The exception was made in the early hours of January 14, 2010. At 5am they were seen and photographed leaving the church from a side door. In the afternoon they gave a press conference.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

This for a start is inaccurate, the priest Haynes-Hubbard and his wife didn't fly to Praia da Luz until 6th May 2007. The 'cremation' theory hit the headlines in April 2016, it was I believe a speculative comment made by Dr Amaral during an interview. Routine policing to follow all lines ofi nquiry, no matter how unlikely. Also it was said at the time of the PJ investigation that there was extensive work going on around the church which hampered the search/investigation.

I don't think you'll find the proverbial needle in a haystack by looking into speculative press reports or a bunch of keys seen in a photograph. Please don't go back down the road suggesting Gerry McCann or someone on his behalf, was carrying a corpse around the streets of Luz at approximately 10:00pm onthe night of 3rd May 2007 roll

by birdguts88 07.02.19 15:47

Verdi wrote:
Interesting! I seem to have been debunked. It may be interesting to see key holes of the other doors on the side. From the google view, the resolution is not high enough. I do not understand your question about my previous question. I said that I saw an online photo of keys and asked if the keys in the picture had ever been discussed in this case. I have also said that other vacationers inform that no other keys are needed for the complex. Why is it important to know what the sources are? Greetings

Greetings in return!

I'm none the wiser so I'll bale out of this one but it's not important.

As I said, this is really a non starter. Much of the church debacle and later reference to a possible cremation - in particular a body being hidden in a deacesed woman's coffin, was largely media reportage which is generally less than reliable. For example this report was published by TVMais magazine in June 2014..

On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife. He had a friendship with McCann's family members. It was with him whom they spoke with. Some days later, Gerry and Kate received the church keys, and since then they were able to enter and leave at any time. A situation that was criticized by the Bishop of the Algarve at the time. When questioned on this discretionary act, the priest José Pacheco said: "Do I decide that?!"

McCanns visited the church in secret

"Although our pain feels much rawer here, it is comforting at the same time since we feel closer to Madeleine - we can read in a press statement sent to Lusa news agency in 12th December 2009, by the McCann's Portuguese PR, in connection to the couple's visit to the church. During the day, the visits were announced and followed by the media. The exception was made in the early hours of January 14, 2010. At 5am they were seen and photographed leaving the church from a side door. In the afternoon they gave a press conference.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

This for a start is inaccurate, the priest Haynes-Hubbard and his wife didn't fly to Praia da Luz until 6th May 2007. The 'cremation' theory hit the headlines in April 2016, it was I believe a speculative comment made by Dr Amaral during an interview. Routine policing to follow all lines ofi nquiry, no matter how unlikely. Also it was said at the time of the PJ investigation that there was extensive work going on around the church which hampered the search/investigation.

I don't think you'll find the proverbial needle in a haystack by looking into speculative press reports or a bunch of keys seen in a photograph. Please don't go back down the road suggesting Gerry McCann or someone on his behalf, was carrying a corpse around the streets of Luz at approximately 10:00pm onthe night of 3rd May 2007

1. I would be interested to know if the side doors (as evidenced to May 4) have such key holes that could correspond to the keys photographed by the police.
2. If "yes", then I would be interested to know from the current priests, or perhaps even just by visual observance, which keys they use to open those doors. Perhaps there is a direct correspondence with the keys photographed in the apartment by the police.
note, the keys photographed have a unique bronze extension.

by birdguts88 07.02.19 15:51

Duplicate post deleted. Mod

by **Hobs** 07.02.19 17:25

McCanns visited the church in secret

"Although our pain feels much rawer here, it is comforting at the same time since we feel closer to Madeleine

Oops

If Maddie was still alive as claimed, why would they feel closer to her in a church?
Churches are places to celebrate, if that is the right word, births marriages and deaths.

If Maddie was alive and with a paedophile abductor, how would the mccanns feel closer to her?
The only way they could feel closer to Maddie is if they knew she was dead and/or perhaps was being stored/had been stored in the church.

This is leakage

by birdguts88 07.02.19 17:58

Hobs wrote:McCanns visited the church in secret

"Although our pain feels much rawer here, it is comforting at the same time since we feel closer to Madeleine

Oops

If Maddie was still alive as claimed, why would they feel closer to her in a church?
Churches are places to celebrate, if that is the right word, births marriages and deaths.

If Maddie was alive and with a paedophile abductor, how would the mccanns feel closer to her?
The only way they could feel closer to Maddie is if they knew she was dead and/or perhaps was being stored/had been stored in the church.

This is leakage

Yes, agreed. But why did they ask to see a priest / have access to the church only a few hours after his disappearance? The period in which we expect urgency, panic, madness from the parents. Not for a calm awakening. Perhaps to deviate from the truth that they had visited the church before, that they had the keys already, then publicly asking for access to the church, they seem to have no access to the church.