Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

I mull this question over quite often and I am still not convinced that they were left alone, I still feel that all the holiday children were possibly put together in one apartment and a babysitter or a nanny from MW or a parent took it in turns to 'look after' them all together.

I also wonder whether all the children on the holiday were left alone together and one of them accidently caused Madeleines death.

No I am not convinced about Madeleine and her siblings being alone in 5a, it's damage limitation for the McCanns, the lesser of two evils possibly?

Do you think they were really left alone?

I can't make up my mind on this one. It is hard to believe that four sets of supposedly intelligent parents would choose to leave their children unattended night after night.

However, there are reports that a child was crying for over an hour on 1st May and also that on another occasion the McCanns were told by staff to return to their apartment to attend to their children. I'm not sure if the latter incident is a forum myth though.

I do think that the checking story was a load of old baloney made up to explain why Madeleine was not there but whether she had an accident while left alone or when she was supervised by an adult, I just don't know.

Agree with Jean - pretty much mirrors my view. I too find it unbelievable that children aged 3 and under were left. ANY decent parent KNOWS that is a disgusting choice to have made.

But the arrogance and self centredness, the utter BS of the last 6 years, the lack of co-operation, blatant lies etc make me think anything is possible.

Remember Gerry saying it was a good thing no-one knows what is true and what is not?

All I know is that not one thing that has ever been put forward by the Mc's has sounded plausible.

Smokeandmirrors wrote:All I know is that not one thing that has ever been put forward by the Mc's has sounded plausible.

Agreed. Considering they're doctors I certainly wouldn't trust either of them with a medical diagnosis, let alone any kind of treatment.

I have never gone along with this theory because theres not a smidgeon of evidence to support it.

Inspectorfrost wrote:I have never gone along with this theory because theres not a smidgeon of evidence to support it.

What would frighten me out of my wits receiving dr Kate at my bedside would be, that she allegedly attended six or more deaths occuring on her watch in the few days leading up to the PdL holidays!

What was it, 10 days, two weeks?

That's an awfull lot of dying and dead people for just one locum GP in so few days, or isn't it?

Portia wrote:What would frighten me out of my wits receiving dr Kate at my bedside would be, that she allegedly attended six or more deaths occuring on her watch in the few days leading up to the PdL holidays!

What was it, 10 days, two weeks?

That's an awfull lot of dying and dead people for just one locum GP in so few days, or isn't it?

That scenario sounds as bad as Dr Harold Shipman.

I wonder how dear Kate likes being mentioned in the same sentence as Harold Shipman? But what else is one to think when she tries to explain away the stench of death on her holiday pants?

And then, as if explaining away the stench of death on her holiday clothes wasn't enough, she went on to explain the stench of death in the hire car aswell by saying it was rotting meat, dirty nappies. What she did, imo, by coming up with these alternatives was to agree that the stench of death was actually there in these places, at least certainly on her holiday pants and cuddlecat.

IAmNotMerylStreep wrote:

Portia wrote:What would frighten me out of my wits receiving dr Kate at my bedside would be, that she allegedly attended six or more deaths occuring on her watch in the few days leading up to the PdL holidays!

What was it, 10 days, two weeks?

That's an awfull lot of dying and dead people for just one locum GP in so few days, or isn't it?

That scenario sounds as bad as Dr Harold Shipman.

I wonder how dear Kate likes being mentioned in the same sentence as Harold Shipman? But what else is one to think when she tries to explain away the stench of death on her holiday pants?

And then, as if explaining away the stench of death on her holiday clothes wasn't enough, she went on to explain the stench of death in the hire car aswell by saying it was rotting meat, dirty nappies. What she did, imo, by coming up with these alternatives was to agree that the stench of death was actually there in these places, at least certainly on her holiday pants and cuddlecat.

I think I read somewhere that statistically most GPs attend to a few death in their entire working life.
For Kate to have attended to SIX in a few short weeks while part time locum just does not add up.
At the rate she will have you believed she used to work in a terminally-ill old folks home than a part time GP.

aiyoyo wrote:

IAmNotMerylStreep wrote:

Portia wrote:What would frighten me out of my wits receiving dr Kate at my bedside would be, that she allegedly attended six or more deaths occuring on her watch in the few days leading up to the PdL holidays!

What was it, 10 days, two weeks?

That's an awfull lot of dying and dead people for just one locum GP in so few days, or isn't it?

That scenario sounds as bad as Dr Harold Shipman.

I wonder how dear Kate likes being mentioned in the same sentence as Harold Shipman? But what else is one to think when she tries to explain away the stench of death on her holiday pants?

And then, as if explaining away the stench of death on her holiday clothes wasn't enough, she went on to explain the stench of death in the hire car aswell by saying it was rotting meat, dirty nappies. What she did, imo, by coming up with these alternatives was to agree that the stench of death was actually there in these places, at least certainly on her holiday pants and cuddlecat.

I think I read somewhere that statistically most GPs attend to a few death in their entire working life.
For Kate to have attended to SIX in a few short weeks while part time locum just does not add up.
At the rate she will have you believed she used to work in a terminally-ill old folks home than a part time GP.

For a GP to certify a patient as dead they have to have treated that patient for the illness/condition from which they have died, during the preceding 14 days. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] refer to point 3 in particular.
KH as she was known professionally was part time, very part time so how she managed to treat these patients and also certify their deaths beats me and that in itself should be investigated imo.

Sorry admin, I have gone off topic, just wanted to comment though on the certification of death. To get back to the OP do I believe the children were left alone, not all of them would be my answer.

Must just correct about GPs visiting dead bodies. At the time of death a GP has to certify death, yes. But afterwards at the undertakers, if bodies are going to be cremated they need two doctors` signatures, so GPs have to go to the undertakers in town and check the bodies again - they might do a few at a time for which they get paid a good fee for a 2 minute job. Though I suppose there wouldn`t have been a vast amount of dead people in that area in a week. Also, IIRC, it was KM`s mother who put forward this reason. Sorry to keep the tangent off topic going but had to correct this.

An old Mail article speaks about Kate visiting dead bodies.

Police also failed to realise that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into
contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday.

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

bristow wrote:An old Mail article speaks about Kate visiting dead bodies.

Police also failed to realise that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into
contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday.

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote
The dogs' reaction was also questioned following claims that they were unreliable and had been criticised in a U.S. trial.

Police also failed to realise that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday.
Unquote

They seriously need to make their minds up. The dogs are unreliable and mistaken or that they are reliable and scented a death scent on contaminated clothing after visiting dead people.

Inspectorfrost wrote:

Quote
The dogs' reaction was also questioned following claims that they were unreliable and had been criticised in a U.S. trial.

Police also failed to realise that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday.
Unquote

They seriously need to make their minds up. The dogs are unreliable and mistaken or that they are reliable and scented a death scent on contaminated clothing after visiting dead people.

Dont they just Inspector, don't they just. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Everything seems to hinge on whether or not the children were left alone during dinner and where they were.

It's always struck me that the adults took shifts to look after the children during dinner as from the statements and Kate's book it seemed to be the case.

But recently I've been rethinking and it seems that the Rogatories were a blank sheet to begin with particularly after the Rothley Hotel meeting. So whatever happened during those nights is probably going to be more accurate from the earlier statements.

So looking at the statements from 4th to 11th May, I hope I haven't missed anything.


Saturday 28th May - Nobody Missing

The children accompanied the parents to dinner at the Millennium. Everyone was there.

Sunday 29th May - Matt Oldfield is ill

In his interview on May 10th Matt mentions he had intestinal problems but doesn't state he missed dinner

In her interview on 11th May Rachel mentions she and ROB and were missing on Tue & Wed night but doesn't refer to her missing husband on Sunday.

But in his interview on 10th May GM mentions that MO didn't attend dinner.

Monday 30th May - Nobody missing

Tuesday 1st June - ROB missing & it's quiz night

Russell doesn't mention it in any of his statements

Jane mentions that Rachel was ill on Wednesday and didn't attend dinner. She gives a lot of detail about Tuesday night when they won sangrea in the quiz but she fails to mention that her husband is missing.

Najoua Chekaya mentions she didn't see KM or DP at the table but there's only 1 empty chair (was it the one that she sat on or was there another?). Why doesn't she remember ROB was missing too, were there some extra people, perhaps the 10th/11th Tapas members?

Kate's phone was busy from the apartment from 22.16 to 22.27.

Pamela Fenn heard Madeleine crying from 22.30

Wednesday 2nd June - Rachel ill

Everyone seems to mention Rachel was missing.

Late night drinks at the Tapas.

KM had a strop with GM and slept in the children's room.



As GM says, confusion is good.

Were MO and ROB afraid to mention their absence for a reason or were the absences built in afterwards as a cover in case they were pursued for neglect?

Were the Paynes happy with their monitor, they asked to be seated closer to the apartment so the signal would work. But what about the noise, did they whisper to ensure the children could be heard over 9 people chatting, knives, forks, glasses, bottles, moving chairs, plates not to mention a quiz and perhaps music

Did nobody have indigestion/dizziness from the constant comings and goings, interrupted and disjointed conversations and how did they negotiate the trail after consuming all that wine?

I don't think its practical to lodge all of the children in one apartment. Some would wake others and you have the drama of getting them to sleep and moving them late at night.

I think there's a remark by Inspector Paiva that they have evidence of all 7 (not eight) children sleeping in one room. Clarence Mitchel reacted to it saying that it would be much harder to get seven children to sleep than three. (Not if you've got Calpol it isn't).

bristow wrote:An old Mail article speaks about Kate visiting dead bodies.

Police also failed to realise that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into
contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday.

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Did doctor Kate have a habit of cradling dead people (dead so long the gave off cadaverine, so -say- more than one/two hours) on het lap?

And where did she stick the car keys?

Sorry, I forgot, the car keys never went to meet these six deceased people. So doctor Kate must have cradled the keys on her lap too? And crawled inside the boot of the Renault Scenic in her checkered working pants?

From: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


THE SUN front page: “6 kids in flat with Maddie says ‘tec”

Page 6: “MADDIE TEC’S BIZARRE NEW CLAIM – 7 kids left in McCann flat as doc pals dined”

Paul Rebelo is Portugal’s “number 2 cop”. He is not Portugal’s “top man” (Mirror), but at least whoever that is can help with the case should Rebelo fails to produce a body

Jane Moore: “Keep Diana oddballs away from Diana” – one mysterious blonde looks very much like another

DAILY EXPRESS front page: “Madeleine: Seven children were sleeping in McCann apartment, claim police”

Page 9: “Another amazing claim by the police: Other couples’ children were in Madeleine’s apartment”

It is a “bombshell”. It could “destroy the credibility of the group – now dubbed the Tapas Nine” – who say their own children were in their own family apartments

Clarence Mitchell says: “If you put seven children together, you’re going to have a far harder time getting them to sleep then three”

We await a re-enactment

Says a “high-ranking Policia Judicaria officer: “Unless we are dealing with a sexual predator who had been following this little girl for quite some time, which is not probable because they had only been in the Algarve for six days, it would be highly unlikely she [Madeleine] would be chosen. In crimes of this nature, the criminals always look for younger children because they are easier to sell”

And easier to get off to sleep, right?

DAILY MAIL page 25: “Madeleine ‘was left in room with six other youngsters’”

“It’s utter rubbish,” says Clarence Mitchell

Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas tells of “significant evidence” that seven of the Tapas Nine’s eight children had been in the McCanns’ apartment on May 3
unquote

Iirc it was rather more interesting: CM apparently said that it would be harder to get six children to sleep - so seven minus one? Can't find that at the moment.

tigger wrote:From: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


THE SUN front page: “6 kids in flat with Maddie says ‘tec”

Page 6: “MADDIE TEC’S BIZARRE NEW CLAIM – 7 kids left in McCann flat as doc pals dined”

Paul Rebelo is Portugal’s “number 2 cop”. He is not Portugal’s “top man” (Mirror), but at least whoever that is can help with the case should Rebelo fails to produce a body

Jane Moore: “Keep Diana oddballs away from Diana” – one mysterious blonde looks very much like another

DAILY EXPRESS front page: “Madeleine: Seven children were sleeping in McCann apartment, claim police”

Page 9: “Another amazing claim by the police: Other couples’ children were in Madeleine’s apartment”

It is a “bombshell”. It could “destroy the credibility of the group – now dubbed the Tapas Nine” – who say their own children were in their own family apartments

Clarence Mitchell says: “If you put seven children together, you’re going to have a far harder time getting them to sleep then three”

We await a re-enactment

Says a “high-ranking Policia Judicaria officer: “Unless we are dealing with a sexual predator who had been following this little girl for quite some time, which is not probable because they had only been in the Algarve for six days, it would be highly unlikely she [Madeleine] would be chosen. In crimes of this nature, the criminals always look for younger children because they are easier to sell”

And easier to get off to sleep, right?

DAILY MAIL page 25: “Madeleine ‘was left in room with six other youngsters’”

“It’s utter rubbish,” says Clarence Mitchell

Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas tells of “significant evidence” that seven of the Tapas Nine’s eight children had been in the McCanns’ apartment on May 3
unquote

Iirc it was rather more interesting: CM apparently said that it would be harder to get six children to sleep - so seven minus one? Can't find that at the moment.

How does he know it is utter rubbish, was he there? Would he swear on oath that it is utter rubbish?

tigger wrote:From: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


THE SUN front page: “6 kids in flat with Maddie says ‘tec”

Page 6: “MADDIE TEC’S BIZARRE NEW CLAIM – 7 kids left in McCann flat as doc pals dined”

Paul Rebelo is Portugal’s “number 2 cop”. He is not Portugal’s “top man” (Mirror), but at least whoever that is can help with the case should Rebelo fails to produce a body

Jane Moore: “Keep Diana oddballs away from Diana” – one mysterious blonde looks very much like another

DAILY EXPRESS front page: “Madeleine: Seven children were sleeping in McCann apartment, claim police”

Page 9: “Another amazing claim by the police: Other couples’ children were in Madeleine’s apartment”

It is a “bombshell”. It could “destroy the credibility of the group – now dubbed the Tapas Nine” – who say their own children were in their own family apartments

Clarence Mitchell says: “If you put seven children together, you’re going to have a far harder time getting them to sleep then three”

We await a re-enactment

Says a “high-ranking Policia Judicaria officer: “Unless we are dealing with a sexual predator who had been following this little girl for quite some time, which is not probable because they had only been in the Algarve for six days, it would be highly unlikely she [Madeleine] would be chosen. In crimes of this nature, the criminals always look for younger children because they are easier to sell”

And easier to get off to sleep, right?

DAILY MAIL page 25: “Madeleine ‘was left in room with six other youngsters’”

“It’s utter rubbish,” says Clarence Mitchell

Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas tells of “significant evidence” that seven of the Tapas Nine’s eight children had been in the McCanns’ apartment on May 3
unquote

Iirc it was rather more interesting: CM apparently said that it would be harder to get six children to sleep - so seven minus one? Can't find that at the moment.

It's an interesting concept. I don't personally believe newspaper stories but everything starts with a grain of truth. I don't believe there were children in 5A on 3rd or perhaps any night because the forensic evidence would have shown it and the room was too orderly. It's possible they were in another apartment. I have some doubts because with 7 children they'd probably need 2 childminders per night so possibly just as easy to leave them in their own rooms and they had a few monitors.

Imo it's about a lot more than calpol. It's a legal substance and it's use can be easily explained especially if you're a medic. Bristow has an interesting thought on whether one of the other children accidentally injured Madeleine. And the possibility that they all missed a serious injury has been brought up more than once.

I'd really like to know who used KM's phone on 1st and why.

I think that IF the children [minus one] were in one apartment, it would sooner have been Paynes. The adults who were ill [one after another] could have taken turns to mind the children and the babyphone could be used to ask for assistance, if needed, without leaving them alone.

tigger wrote:I think there's a remark by Inspector Paiva that they have evidence of all 7 (not eight) children sleeping in one room. Clarence Mitchel reacted to it saying that it would be much harder to get seven children to sleep than three. (Not if you've got Calpol it isn't).

Well done on your good memory tigger. I have to say though that Inspector Paiva was wrong in his thinking as many children can sleep at the same time as is proved through nurseries everywhere, and no noise will wake them. I have more doubts on the crying episodes from Madeleine, as that would awaken the twins to start crying too. More evidence Madeleine was alone?

I don't believe that 9 adults left their children alone, statistics must disprove this, but the thought of Madeleine being the one left alone in a locked flat, fills me with absolute horror! Is that remotely possible? I'd never contemplated before one little girl alone and the other kids cared for, possibly by a MW Nanny who was courted, then shipped off, but it makes sense.

There was an interesting post on MM, re GM walking down the street, suggesting that "walking" would mean GM came from the front door. Had he emerged from the patio doors he would have been closing the gate. I'll have to post it separately as am I'm trying to get used to W8.

Whilst I'm here, she is protecting him. Of that, I'm sure PJ got it wrong.

From MM and jintva with thanks.
Re: Kate went back to the flat?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] jinvta on Wed 22 May 2013, 11:45 pm




I don't remember this story at all. I don't think that there is any reference to Kate going back to the apartment as they were leaving in any of the witness statments, so perhaps it was from an interview.

I believe that it was Jane, not Gerry, that Jez saw by the shutters at around 8:30 pm.

Jez claims to have seen Gerry walking toward the tapas restaurant and assuming that he had just conducted a check based on his route.

From Jez's statement: "When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar."

No mention of shutters, but the implication is that Gerry was coming from the front of the building and not the side gate and patio doors. For Jez to have seen Gerry walking, he must have been further up the road then their eventual meeting point, directly in front of the side gate. Had Gerry exited the patio doors, Jez would have seen him coming down the stairs and/or exiting the side gate, not walking down the road.
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Maybe he never went to 5A at all. Maybe he was walking back from somewhere else...?

Lance De Boils wrote:Maybe he never went to 5A at all. Maybe he was walking back from somewhere else...?

Just say FGS!