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Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Hobs on 25.05.13 23:07

Gerry McCann:
Anybody with young children will understand that children cry;
they wake up at night.
During that week there was one night, errr… and we can't give too much
detail because it's part
of the investigation
file but there was one night where Madeleine came through and one of the
other, errr… twins
were
crying,"


Oh dear gerry open mouth insert foot

You were going to say one of the OTHER CHILDREN before you realised by saying that you blew the every child was sleeping in their own apartments home alone.

There were no other sets of twins in your party or the complex as a whole, so, what we see is pausing and self correction in the process of freely edited speech.
When someone has reason to pause and correct whilst freely speaking, there is a reason to.
In this case you did an appalling job of grammar and logic.

All the children sleeping in one apartment would nullify the checks which were allegedly based on each parent checking their own children and thus everyone was running up and down like a Benny Hill chase sketch.

One adult was supposedly missing each night at dinner supposedly from illness or whatever excuse.

What was the reality is the children were never left alone as claimed, instead they were all in one apartment watched by an adult.

This instantly refutes and denies the chance of any abductor coming in and taking Maddie, there was never any opportunity nor chance.

If the children were watched by an adult and in a room with other children the allegation of abduction by stranger is no longer feasible, practical or believable.

If there was no abduction then how and why did Maddie vanish?

Since abduction as claimed is and was impossible the question is then asked which of the group including her family had access to Maddie and which of the group killed her?
The finger points immediately to kate and gerry as perpetrators of crimes against Maddie.

The finger also beomes a hand and points to the tapas 7 as aiders, abettors and accessories after the fact to her death.

We know maddie is dead as you, kate, told us in several statements.

We know Maddie is dead due to the body fluids and cadaverine found in the aparment, on clothing, cuddlecat and the hire car.
The hire car you claimed at the Levesone enquiry which contained no bodily fluids or cadaverine, yet which you earlier admitted existed and was explained away as dirty diapers, rotting meat and sweaty sandals.

You continue to insist there is no evidence of harm to Maddie when we have body fluids and cadaverine, we have a missing child.
Pray tell what is your definition of harm?
What is your definition of serious harm?

Why do you speak in an unexpected manner in regard to the evidence found by LE when innocent parents would be terrified beyond measure their child was hurt or worse when traces of their blood was found?
Why did you relax and say the dogs were giving false positives and demean their abilities when innocent parents would be demanding answers as to why the dogs reacted, what it meant in relation to their child.

Why do you demean and slander and libel the work of those searching for Maddie, refuse to co-operate and sue all involved if they disagree with you?

Innocent parents co-operate fully, praise and encourage LE.

What evidence is there to prove there was an abduction?

Why does evidence indicating a death in the apartment count as nothing?

Why do you not ask who had the hire car before you, who had access to it, could Maddie have been moved in it before you got the car?

Instead you admit there is evidence of decomposition and DNA in the fluid traces belonging to Maddie and pass it off as dirty diapers, sweaty sandals and numerous family members.

Why of the two paths parents follow in a missing child case are you following the guilty parents route and not the innocent parent route?

The crime has been committed, it cannot be undone.

It is not a case of if they will solve the case. it is when they solve the case.

The more time passes the more the twins will understand as they surf the net and read the files.

If you were to confess all then there is the chance your children will forgive you due to their age.

If you wait till later you will find them to be not so forgiving, you lied to them for many years, scared them into believing a bad man took Maddie and they could be next.
Their childhoods forever scarred and tainted.
As they grow older their willingness to forgive will decline.

Are you willing to risk being disowned by your children and banned from contact with your grandchildren?

The more you delay, obfuscate the harsher the consequences.

The public can and do forgive those to admit the truth, who confess, they however will not forgive if you continue to lie and deceive.

Think about it.

We know pretty much what happened, we may not be 100% sure on who did what, we do know however who is involved.

You and your chums have told us this in your statements, A single word kate told us Maddie was dead, the word that told me and the world was when you said we would ALL be togeather, right there you told me you knew Maddie was dead.

The brain knows the truth, it wants to tell what happened as lying is so stressful.

The brain will leak it's knowledge vis the words you chose to speak.


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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Lance De Boils on 25.05.13 23:34

@Spaniel wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:Maybe he never went to 5A at all. Maybe he was walking back from somewhere else...?
Just say FGS!

Sorry? What is FGS?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Guest on 25.05.13 23:39

@Hobs wrote:[...] A single word Kate told us Maddie was dead, the word that told me and the world was when you said we would ALL be together, right there you told me you knew Maddie was dead.

The brain knows the truth, it wants to tell what happened as lying is so stressful.

The brain will leak it's knowledge via the words you chose to speak.

***
Yes.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Guest on 26.05.13 9:09

@Lance De Boils wrote:
@Spaniel wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:Maybe he never went to 5A at all. Maybe he was walking back from somewhere else...?
Just say FGS!

Sorry? What is FGS?

I think that's "for God's sake" in teen parlance!

In other words, where do you think he was walking back from?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by aiyoyo on 26.05.13 11:30

In answer to the thread question, my answer is in one word "NO".

I don't believe Maddie died that night. She died earlier, 3rd was used to stage the scene, and the twins were used in the staging.

They were sedated to avoid them disrupting their plan when they'd to be moved from apt to apt back and forth during the staging.
I believe they were not sedated when they were sent to another apt, but were sedated before taken back to 5A to avoid them being disturbed hence crying when all the rackets were going in the midst of screaming kate punching wall and lashing out, and roaring like bull Gerry going on in the background.

No Children were in 5A on the 3rd, and I don't even believe rota check took place that night, not in 5A anyway.
I believe when Russell went on his check it wasn't to 5A; rather he went to check whether ROB (reportedly often left to babysit all the children on other occasions) needed help with the babysitting.
I believe Gerry's trip back to the apt was not to check on the children rather to create witnesses alibi for their rota checks ie creating the impression they were away from the table, hence tying in with their check story. Kate went because she was penned in to raise the alarm. May 3rd was a hugh lie from start to finish.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by PrissyCrissy on 26.05.13 13:14

I don't believe the children were left alone. I get the impression from Kate's mom that this would have been completely out of character for the parents. And I believe her.
Sorry I don't know how to link, but according to Jeremy Wilkins' statement, on May 2nd at the Tapas bar, he and his wife were told of the group leaving the children alone. That leads me to believe that Madeleine's death occurred before that night and the stage was being set.
There are a couple of other things in his statement which, while perhaps unimportant, I find interesting:
Gerry and Russell came to Tapas around 8:15. Jeremy stated that Gerry said Kate was putting the children to bed. Shouldn't the children have already been in bed by this time? Which leaves me wondering if Kate really went to Tapas at all that night. Did anyone outside of the group testify to her being there?
Also, Jeremy said he saw Gerry with about 7 other people when Jeremy and his wife left the Tapas. That would have been about 8:30-8:35. That conflicts with Jane's statement that they were getting to Tapas later and later, around 8:45-9:00.
"If I'm honest", at one point recently when all the stories began in the news again, I actually wondered if I'd been wrong about this case all this time. But I have to remember the odd behavior of the parents in some of the interviews. I also have to remember Lance Armstrong's brazen insistence upon being innocent when he knew he was guilty. And, of course, there's always the cadaver odor to bring me back to reality.
I personally doubt we'll ever see justice in this case because I have a feeling that the review is based on the premise that the parents are innocent. However, no one really gets by with doing wrong. If this group has been living a lie all this time, what an awful weight the guilt must be. And I for one still believe in a higher Justice.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Guest on 26.05.13 13:47

@PrissyCrissy wrote:I don't believe the children were left alone. I get the impression from Kate's mom that this would have been completely out of character for the parents. And I believe her.
Sorry I don't know how to link, but according to Jeremy Wilkins' statement, on May 2nd at the Tapas bar, he and his wife were told of the group leaving the children alone. That leads me to believe that Madeleine's death occurred before that night and the stage was being set.
There are a couple of other things in his statement which, while perhaps unimportant, I find interesting:
Gerry and Russell came to Tapas around 8:15. Jeremy stated that Gerry said Kate was putting the children to bed. Shouldn't the children have already been in bed by this time? Which leaves me wondering if Kate really went to Tapas at all that night. Did anyone outside of the group testify to her being there?
Also, Jeremy said he saw Gerry with about 7 other people when Jeremy and his wife left the Tapas. That would have been about 8:30-8:35. That conflicts with Jane's statement that they were getting to Tapas later and later, around 8:45-9:00.
"If I'm honest", at one point recently when all the stories began in the news again, I actually wondered if I'd been wrong about this case all this time. But I have to remember the odd behavior of the parents in some of the interviews. I also have to remember Lance Armstrong's brazen insistence upon being innocent when he knew he was guilty. And, of course, there's always the cadaver odor to bring me back to reality.
I personally doubt we'll ever see justice in this case because I have a feeling that the review is based on the premise that the parents are innocent. However, no one really gets by with doing wrong. If this group has been living a lie all this time, what an awful weight the guilt must be. And I for one still believe in a higher Justice.

Don't know where some of that's come from, I don't think they were at the tapas restaurant? Also he says he left his apartment at 8.30 ish. to push his child around in pushchair. Here is the tapas restaurant booking for 3rd May....

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Lance De Boils on 26.05.13 13:49

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:
@Spaniel wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:Maybe he never went to 5A at all. Maybe he was walking back from somewhere else...?
Just say FGS!

Sorry? What is FGS?

I think that's "for God's sake" in teen parlance!

In other words, where do you think he was walking back from?

Oh I see. Well there was no need for that tone.
I have no idea where he might have been walking back from.
Someone pointed out that Gerry must have been "walking" (as opposed to coming out of the apt.) I suggested maybe he was walking back from somewhere other than the apt, ie, just because he was seen walking in the vicinity of 5A, does not mean he was ever IN 5A.
That is all.
I am surprised at Spaniel's "teenage" response.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by pennylane on 26.05.13 14:37

@Lance De Boils wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:
@Spaniel wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:Maybe he never went to 5A at all. Maybe he was walking back from somewhere else...?
Just say FGS!

Sorry? What is FGS?

I think that's "for God's sake" in teen parlance!

In other words, where do you think he was walking back from?

Oh I see. Well there was no need for that tone.
I have no idea where he might have been walking back from.
Someone pointed out that Gerry must have been "walking" (as opposed to coming out of the apt.) I suggested maybe he was walking back from somewhere other than the apt, ie, just because he was seen walking in the vicinity of 5A, does not mean he was ever IN 5A.
That is all.
I am surprised at Spaniel's "teenage" response.

Good thinking Lance DB, we only have Mr Gruesome's word he'd just come out of Apt 5A, and we all know how much credence to give that!

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Lance De Boils on 26.05.13 14:58

Indeed, pennylane. We only have Gerry's word for it and Jane's incredible insight of knowing G had just come OUT of 5A (how did she know he'd already been in there?)

In other words, Gerry could have been anywhere, especially given that Kate was apparently concerned he'd been gone some time and considered he might be watching football. (Was that the time she said that? Please correct me if I've mixed that up with another time.)

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by tigger on 26.05.13 15:01

@pennylane wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:
@Spaniel wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:Maybe he never went to 5A at all. Maybe he was walking back from somewhere else...?
Just say FGS!

Sorry? What is FGS?

I think that's "for God's sake" in teen parlance!

In other words, where do you think he was walking back from?

Oh I see. Well there was no need for that tone.
I have no idea where he might have been walking back from.
Someone pointed out that Gerry must have been "walking" (as opposed to coming out of the apt.) I suggested maybe he was walking back from somewhere other than the apt, ie, just because he was seen walking in the vicinity of 5A, does not mean he was ever IN 5A.
That is all.
I am surprised at Spaniel's "teenage" response.

Good thinking Lance DB, we only have Mr Gruesome's word he'd just come out of Apt 5A, and we all know how much credence to give that!

I expect he had quite a lot to do still, probably not in 5a but in the vicinity - besides, there was JT's remark about the 'footie' he'd been away so long they thought he was watching football on TV. Gerry was quite annoyed with JT in the mockumentary - didn't she burst into tears?
It's possible that Gerry cut JT off at this point because it surely would have woken up the children had there been any children in 5a? Or that he didn't want to draw attention to a lengthy absence from the table? Allegedly he got up from the table at 9.05 must have been back after speaking with JW by 9.16.
Although we only have G's word for it that that meeting was at 9.10 to 9.15 and only Kate's word that he left the table at 9.05 and so it goes on.....

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Guest on 26.05.13 15:19

IIRC Oldfield supposedly had just come back from listening at the windows. Why did Gerry need to go checking within minutes?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by pennylane on 26.05.13 15:36

@Lance De Boils wrote:Indeed, pennylane. We only have Gerry's word for it and Jane's incredible insight of knowing G had just come OUT of 5A (how did she know he'd already been in there?)

In other words, Gerry could have been anywhere, especially given that Kate was apparently concerned he'd been gone some time and considered he might be watching football. (Was that the time she said that? Please correct me if I've mixed that up with another time.)

Definitely their timelines and locations are pure fiction! As tigger says, it was Jane (during the Mockumentary) that mentioned Gerry was gone awhile, and that they thought he was watching football. Gerry cut her off rapidly and changed the subject, leaving Jane with a sheepish 'ooops I did it again' expression on her face!

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Guest on 26.05.13 16:00

candyfloss wrote:
@PrissyCrissy wrote:I don't believe the children were left alone. I get the impression from Kate's mom that this would have been completely out of character for the parents. And I believe her.
Sorry I don't know how to link, but according to Jeremy Wilkins' statement, on May 2nd at the Tapas bar, he and his wife were told of the group leaving the children alone. That leads me to believe that Madeleine's death occurred before that night and the stage was being set.
There are a couple of other things in his statement which, while perhaps unimportant, I find interesting:
Gerry and Russell came to Tapas around 8:15. Jeremy stated that Gerry said Kate was putting the children to bed. Shouldn't the children have already been in bed by this time? Which leaves me wondering if Kate really went to Tapas at all that night. Did anyone outside of the group testify to her being there?
Also, Jeremy said he saw Gerry with about 7 other people when Jeremy and his wife left the Tapas. That would have been about 8:30-8:35. That conflicts with Jane's statement that they were getting to Tapas later and later, around 8:45-9:00.
"If I'm honest", at one point recently when all the stories began in the news again, I actually wondered if I'd been wrong about this case all this time. But I have to remember the odd behavior of the parents in some of the interviews. I also have to remember Lance Armstrong's brazen insistence upon being innocent when he knew he was guilty. And, of course, there's always the cadaver odor to bring me back to reality.
I personally doubt we'll ever see justice in this case because I have a feeling that the review is based on the premise that the parents are innocent. However, no one really gets by with doing wrong. If this group has been living a lie all this time, what an awful weight the guilt must be. And I for one still believe in a higher Justice.

Don't know where some of that's come from, I don't think they were at the tapas restaurant? Also he says he left his apartment at 8.30 ish. to push his child around in pushchair. Here is the tapas restaurant booking for 3rd May....

See Textusa: she pointed out that the doodle at the top must have some meaning, some sort of warning sign about just this one booking.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Lance De Boils on 26.05.13 17:40

The flower? Never noticed that before! Is that a word scribbled underneath, or just "grass"?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Spaniel on 26.05.13 18:04

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:
@Spaniel wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:Maybe he never went to 5A at all. Maybe he was walking back from somewhere else...?
Just say FGS!

Sorry? What is FGS?

I think that's "for God's sake" in teen parlance!

In other words, where do you think he was walking back from?

And you ran begging to claim first prize as to who was first with the news on your other forum. That's juvenile!

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by PrissyCrissy on 26.05.13 18:51

Candyfloss, I didn't mean to confuse anyone. I was referring to May 2nd and just pointing out what are to me discrepancies.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Spaniel on 26.05.13 18:53

To LdB. You know darn well what I meant. Still you created attention for yourself!

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Guest on 26.05.13 19:05

@Spaniel wrote:To LdB. You know darn well what I meant. Still you created attention for yourself!
Cease please

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by plebgate on 26.05.13 22:22

Who knows what to believe. the one thing I do not believe is that the apartment was left unlocked.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Guest on 26.05.13 22:31

Mantra: no neglect = no abduction

Good night to you et al.
A demain :-)

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 26.05.13 22:42

I'm starting to mull over whether Madeleine was kept separate from the other children at night. I'm thinking this because it has been implied she was a bit of a handful, we had changing accounts about the crying incident, it started off with Sean and her then morphed into just her. We have the twins cots photographed in the PJ files with no sheets in the cotbeds. I can understand if they were carried out of the apartment on the fateful night taking the blankets but not the sheets, something weird about the twins movements. The cleaner said there was a cot in the mcCanns rooms one of the days.

The incident Kate mentions in the book about asking Madeleine if she minded not being asked to the beach etc. There doesn't seem to be much evidence that the group did many activities all together with all the children which I find a bit strange.

Also on the night Gerry wondered if Madeleine had gone through to their room, and there was the rumour that she hid outside one night at bedtime, but I don't know if that was ever proven.

I'm just wondering if the crying episodes are true, and if it is true that she was quite demanding/bit of a screamer etc as the family have indicated at times whether she was liable to disturb the twins at night, hence the muddled reports.

I remember also that there was a video of Madeleine and the twins in their playroom in Rothley where Madeleine is seen pushing one of the twins along on some sort of cart and it looked a bit boisterous and she sort of crashed into something with it. I know she was very little and toddlers are quite gung-ho when they are playing, but I just feel as though there was a degree of "separateness" and the McCanns have worked hard to conceal this by regaling us so frequently with how "involved" the twins feel with the search, talking about her etc when in reality they wouldn't remember her in all likelihood.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Nina on 26.05.13 23:10

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:I'm starting to mull over whether Madeleine was kept separate from the other children at night. I'm thinking this because it has been implied she was a bit of a handful, we had changing accounts about the crying incident, it started off with Sean and her then morphed into just her. We have the twins cots photographed in the PJ files with no sheets in the cotbeds. I can understand if they were carried out of the apartment on the fateful night taking the blankets but not the sheets, something weird about the twins movements. The cleaner said there was a cot in the mcCanns rooms one of the days.

The incident Kate mentions in the book about asking Madeleine if she minded not being asked to the beach etc. There doesn't seem to be much evidence that the group did many activities all together with all the children which I find a bit strange.

Also on the night Gerry wondered if Madeleine had gone through to their room, and there was the rumour that she hid outside one night at bedtime, but I don't know if that was ever proven.

I'm just wondering if the crying episodes are true, and if it is true that she was quite demanding/bit of a screamer etc as the family have indicated at times whether she was liable to disturb the twins at night, hence the muddled reports.

I remember also that there was a video of Madeleine and the twins in their playroom in Rothley where Madeleine is seen pushing one of the twins along on some sort of cart and it looked a bit boisterous and she sort of crashed into something with it. I know she was very little and toddlers are quite gung-ho when they are playing, but I just feel as though there was a degree of "separateness" and the McCanns have worked hard to conceal this by regaling us so frequently with how "involved" the twins feel with the search, talking about her etc when in reality they wouldn't remember her in all likelihood.

I think she was jealous of the twins when they were born and screamed for attention according to Kate whilst she was breast feeding them. Didn't Kate's Mum report that Madeleine had hit one of the twins with a toy hammer or something? I have searched but cannot find the link.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by skyrocket on 13.10.15 9:29

@ Tony Bennett - thanks for this link from the locked thread re:ROB.


Not sure if this has been posted previously, apologies if it has.

On the night of May 3 (early morning May 4), Inspector Victor Martins, a criminal investigator with the PJ in Portimao, attended the scene at about 00.50am. He was there with Deputy Specialist Joao Barreiras, the PJ crime scene photographer. Inspector Martins asked for the family to be relocated and for 5A to be cleared of people. He also interviewed GM, at the scene.


Inspector Martins was interviewed on 2 occasions, on 4 May 2007 and 4 December 2007. In his 4 December statement he says the following:

That Gerald McCann, the missing girls father, informed him that the children of the couples friends were in another apartment and that they were being looked after by the mother of one of the friends, who was never present in the apartment whilst the inquiries were being carried out.


The mother in question must have been either Rachael Oldfield or Jane Tanner. Stand alone, this comment obviously doesn't mean that the children 'were in another apartment' all evening, but it suggests the possibility.


Also as I recall, didn't Miss Pennington make a comment somewhere that the twins were not in 5A when she arrived? I'm hesitant to give too much weight to this as Miss P has made some dubious claims but who knows, there may be truth in some of them.


Another point which niggles is comments made by JT in her rogatory:

Reply    “Erm, well Evie was still up, so I was just with Evie in the room and I think it was getting quite and Russell had sort of said ‘I’ll go and finish my meal and then I’ll come back’.  So the next thing I can sort of really remember is thinking ‘Oh I wonder why he’s not’, you know, I think I was thinking ‘Oh he’s got chatting, he’s not gonna’, you know, ‘he’s not gonna come back’, blah, blah, sort of thinking along those lines.  So I don’t know whether it was the first time I’d looked out of the window to check, but I know it was the first time I thought, because I think it was odd, I looked out of the window to check, to see if I could see them still there, and that’s when the only person I could see still at the table was, erm, Dianne and everybody else seemed to have, seemed to have gone.  Which I thought was a bit odd, because I thought even if Russell would have come back, you know, I wouldn’t have expected everybody else to, to  have left at, you know, left at that point, so.  So, I mean, that’s the first time I thought ‘Oh’, you know, ‘What’s happened’, because I couldn’t, you know, I could see them actually sitting in the, sitting in the restaurant. But I don’t know how long that is from, but I think it must have been a fair while from, because I was actually thinking ‘Oh he should be back by now’, sort of actually, you know, to actually look out of the window”.

4078    “And what happened after that?"

Reply    “Erm, I think that’s when I went back to the roadside, I sort of looked out of the roadside door.  I think I heard some shouting, erm, so I actually went to sort of put my head out the roadside door.  And I think it was Rachael that I saw first because she had run back I think to check that Grace was obviously okay.  And then I think Rachael said, you know, she told me what had, you know she said ‘Oh Madeleine’s gone’ or, you know, something along those lines.  And that’s, it was almost straightaway as she said that I sort of had that, this person sort of came into my head at that”.

4078    “It was that quick was it after you?”

Reply    “It was almost, yeah, I was sort of like, oh, it just sort of seemed a bit, the connection made, you know, I thought ‘Oh that person was a bit odd’, he sort of seemed a bit, a bit odd.  But I think at that point I was obviously, I think I actually might have wondered, wondered and, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Well I’m sure it couldn’t have been’, but it did come that immediate into my mind”.

4078    “So what happened from then?

Reply    “Erm, well I think I was in a bit of a, I mean, obviously, erm, the next thing I can remember is seeing Kate and Fiona, they came running from the direction of Kate’s flat, say sort of along the, sort of it’s, I’ll try and describe how it is, but as you come into the flats there’s sort of a passageway and there’s flats above so there’s a roof and there’s a passageway, it’s really badly described, but they came running along there and they were shouting ‘Madeleine’ and they were like looking in the stairwell and what have you.  And Fi started running upstairs and that’s when I ran to Fi and said what I thought, you know, I said ‘I think I’ve seen somebody’.  I didn’t want to say to Kate at that point, which might sound odd now, you know, ‘Oh why wouldn’t you say straight away to Kate’, but, you know, the thought of telling the mother of a child that you might have seen being carried away is, it’s too horrible to even say.  So I just said to Fi, erm, you know, ‘I think I might have seen somebody a bit odd when I came back to do one of the checks’.  And I don’t know whether she, I mean, she was just sort of like, I don’t know whether she took it in properly, but, erm, and then they just carried on, carried on the searching.  They were sort of running around, I mean, I just stayed, erm, me and Rachael just stayed with, in our own, but we were sort of out in the alley, in the sort of stairwell outside our rooms, and we were sort of staying with the kids at that point, so we weren’t actually involved in any physical running around, searching”.

4078    “Did you stay sort of pretty much near to your apartment all night?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, well Evie was still up at this point so I’d sort of got her, she was still awake, so, I’d sort of, well I’d got her, I was holiday her but sort of just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move.  Rachael, because Grace was asleep, she was more moving around more, trying to, you know, see what was happening.  But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I'd come down".

Firstly, JT is very garbled when describing where she, Rachael and the children are; secondly, she states 'at the bottom of the stairs, I'd come down', which could be taken in a couple of ways i.e. the stairs she'd come down after telling FP about Tannerman, or the stairs she'd come down from the Payne's apartment; thirdly, and a separate issue, she states that she could see the table in the tapas from the window (in whichever apartment she was in 5D downstairs or 5G upstairs), sufficiently well to make out that only DW was left sitting there! All very questionable, but again, like Miss P, some of the truth may be slipping out inadvertently.

One last point, which is perhaps OT, in Inspector Martins' statement of 4 May (immediately after the event in other words) and Silvia Batista's statement of 7 May, both hint at a different location for the sighting of Tannerman. Here's what Insp Martins says:


At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child who passed descending the road, however she did not recognise this individual, nor the child, only having noticed that the individual appeared to be aged between 30 or 40, had dark hair and light coloured trousers.

And here's what SB says:


[size=16]At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child.
This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket.


The 4 May statement from JT to Insp Martins seems to suggest that she was on the carpark side of the building when she saw Tannerman walking towards the top of the Baptista supermarket road. Again, Silvia Batista is quite clear in what JT was saying in the early hours of 4 May i.e. that Tannerman was in the street 'infront of Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of ....'. So, walking in the direction of the Baptista Road, not at the top of the Baptista road. Not surprisingly, by the 7 May when Silvia Batista makes her first statement, confusion is starting to creep in. Now JT is saying that she was walking up from the club reception/tapas entrance when she saw Tannerman crossing the Baptista supermarket road at the top. SB's brain is ticking over and she can't consolidate what JT was saying on the morning of 4 May with what she is obviously saying by 6/7 May. This is very apparent in her statement.

JT's statements quite clearly indicate that Tannerman was not turning down the Baptista road but from both Martins' and Batista's statements it seems that JT was located at a completely different viewpoint and could not have possibly known which road he took at the T junction. Was it convenient to suddenly change the elusive Tannerman's route to suggest a possible link with Murat? Glaringly obvious also is that fact that if Martins' and Batista's statements are a true reflection of JT's location at 9.15/9.20pm when she reports to have seen Tannerman, even if Tannerman is a figment of the Mc camps joint imaginations, the whole GM/JW scenario falls apart (amongst other things). Perhaps GM/JW didn't see JT because she had passed by before they met (if they did); perhaps, perhaps, perhaps ..........





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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by pennylane on 13.10.15 9:48

Inspector Martins was interviewed on 2 occasions, on 4 May 2007 and 4 December 2007. In his 4 December statement he says the following:

That Gerald McCann, the missing girls father, informed him that the children of the couples friends were in another apartment and that they were being looked after by the mother of one of the friends, who was never present in the apartment whilst the inquiries were being carried out.

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The mother in question must have been either Rachael Oldfield or Jane Tanner. Stand alone, this comment obviously doesn't mean that the children 'were in another apartment' all evening, but it suggests the possibility.
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Morning Skyrocket,


I would think "the mother of one of the friends" Inspector Martins was referring to is Dianne Webster.


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