The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

aquila wrote:

HiDeHo wrote:For those of us that believe the crying incident could have happened, lets not forget that Mrs Fenn was ALSO adjacent to Paynes apartment AND above Oldfields apartment..

Could it be possible the crying was coming from OLDFIELDS apartment?

Their little one was only a year old but Rachel has told us that she did bath Ella (Tanners older child, similar age to Maddie) on at least one occasion.

Could Ella have been crying in Oldfields apartment directly under Mrs Fenns apartment?

I'm confused - call me old fashioned but I find it weird that people other than the parents bathe children, especially with the Tapas lot who couldn't be bothered to do much with their kids on a holiday other than to park them off in creche activities, feed them junk at the end of the day, put them to bed and bugger orf  to have an 'adult' dinner/adult time.

There always seems to be this thing about bath-time and bed-time with the Tapas crew and I can't get my head around it. The Gaspars were concerned about bath-time too.

Tony Bennett wrote:

HiDeHo wrote:For those of us that believe the crying incident could have happened, let's not forget that Mrs Fenn was ALSO adjacent to Paynes apartment AND above Oldfield's apartment... Could it be possible the crying was coming from OLDFIELD'S apartment?... Could Ella have been crying in Oldfield's apartment directly under Mrs Fenn's apartment?

Sorry @ HideHo   I just feel that the longer we go on accepting the crying incident as a fact, the more we will go off into ever-deeper realms of fantasy as we are doing.

On the last few pages of this thread, a variety of ingenious but IMO utterly improbable theories have been advanced because, to some, Mrs Fenn's 'crying incident' has been elevated into a kind of 'sacred cow', a fixed point which has become sacrosanct, and 'must be accepted'.

So we have had...

* It was Amelie

* It was Sean

* It was Kate crying 'Maddie'

* There was a strange third party who wanted to keep himself unknown and didn't want to be recognize, so he was let in through the patio door after the McCanns unlocked the front door.

Now we have: * It was Ella being looked after by the Oldfields!

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All of the effort to explain this alleged crying incident just ignores the most obvious difficulties about the entire tale, which, if I may summarise, include:

1. The improbability of a child crying continuously for 75 minutes with no-one else hearing it
2. The claim that only one child was crying
3. The unlikelihood of any young child crying ever more loudly for 75 minutes
4. The improbability of neither Mrs Fenn nor Mrs Glyn alerting anyone
5. The delay of 111 days before making a statement about it
6. No evidence whatsoever that she reported it earlier
7. The fact that the British papers were told by someone in advance what she was going to say
8. Mrs Fenn herself saying: 'It's all rubbish - ignore it'
9. The contrived attempt to implicate Madeleine: 'Crying of a young child not a baby of two years'  
10. The long list of contradictions about the burglary claim        
11. No evidence that an alleged burglary with 81-year-old Mrs Fenn trying to grab the burglar's ankle before leap[ing out of a first floor window as ever reported.

joyce1938 wrote:I think the time the crying was going on ,would have been a bit late forto be  bathing small kids ,most parents were at Tappas were, I think ?We just seem to be clutching at straws  maybe ? must say it gets more confusing by the weeks .joyce1938

dottyaussie wrote:HiDeHo do you have any idea how the video at the hairdresser came about ? Who took it ? When did it become public ?

Tony Bennett wrote:

Nina wrote:

I think it was a child because Kate McCann says so. She knows a child cried and is trying to cover this up with what she says about the breakfast conversation.

The moment Gerry McCann was asked to give a more detailed account of the week's events (Thursday 10 May, less than a week after Madeleine was reported missing), he volunteered this to the police:

On the day that MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time, between 07H30 and 08H00. When they were having breakfast, MADELEINE addressed her mother and asked her "why didn't you come last night when SEAN and I were crying?" That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never spoken like this and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal. When he questioned her about the comment, she left without any explanation.

Yet we have no evidence whatsoever that Mrs Fenn (or anyone else) mentioned any 'crying incident' until the British press was full of it on Saturday 18 August and Mrs Fenn made a statement to the PJ about it (and an alleged burglary) two days later.

And the McCanns say it was Wednesday night and Mrs Fenn says it was Tuesday night.

How can we explain this?   

pennylane wrote:Also important to note is that the Mc's don't know what the PJ know, or what they will find out, so pre-empting and damage limitations is very much on their minds from the get go (imo).

Richard IV wrote:If Mrs. Fenn knew Jenny Murat, this could be how the press got to know about the crying incident and what she was about to report to the police.  

REPLY: We know these 4 things: (1) Mrs Fenn and Mrs Murat were members together of a local Residents/Community Committee (2) Praia da Luz is a small village but with many ex-pats (3) Mrs Fenn and Mrs Murat were broadly of similar age (4) Both had lived in Praia da Luz for a long time

There is, on record, a conversation between JM/RM and Martin Brunt on 15th May. One just has to read the introduction to guess that Jenny`s "Hi dear" to MB suggests they were already familiar with each other - JM then calls RM to the phone and he and MB continue to discuss the case.

REPLY: YES - and IMO we have paid far too little attention to this issue. There is indeed a clear indication as you say that Martin Brunt already knew the Murats. By implication that includes Murat's aunt and uncle Ralph & Sally Eveleigh. The PJ conducted a long search of their Salsalitas villa which was known for its 'adult' houseparties. Then one starts to consider how SKY News made much of the running in the very early days after Madeleine was reported missing. IIRC there was a SKY reporter living in Praia da Luz at the time and she had some interesting connections which I can't quite remember now. Then, on top of all that, Martin Brunt is sent in 2014 to the village of Burton Overy in Leicestershire, sets upon Brenda Leyland and together with his bosses at SKY outs her as a nasty McCann troll, showing clips of her on SKY News at 15-minute intervals for several hours. This is connected with an alleged dossier of nasty anti-McCann trolls which Brunt falsely claimed was now subject to a criminal investigation. At the same time Gerry McCann was crying out publicly for an example to be made of anti-McCann trolls and for them to be banged up inside for long periods. Three days after Brunt's stunt in Burton Overy, Brenda Leyland lay dead on a hotel room floor about one mile from Leicestershire Police headquarters, a death with Brunt and his SKY News masters triggered. And yet SKY News got away scot-free with their actions. Whether or not Brunt knew the Murat family before 3 May 2007 becomes a very important question.     

It is not unreasonable to wonder if PF and JM had already discussed the case and the goings on on the night of the 1st.  

REPLY: It is almost inevitable that Mrs Fenn and Mrs Murat did discuss the case. However, whether they discussed 'the night of the 1st' is the moot point of this thread. Mrs Murat was the mother of a PJ translator (Robert Murat) who had to be removed from his job for unprofessional conduct. She set up a stall asking for information, possibly without the active consent of the PJ. She corroborated Robert Murat's version of what he was doing on the evening of 3 May. Her son was made a suspect. It must all have been the talk of the village ex-pat community.  
   
PF may not have known what to do about things.  Maybe it was JM's gossips with PF that got passed on to MB and hence advised her to report it to PJ, and what to say maybe.

Nina wrote:A very good point Verdi. The McCanns and their constant stream of visitors and the paparazzi must have been the subject of gossip for many weeks, and probably still are in a small way.

dottyaussie wrote:It was the Kate who mentioned the crying on the Wed first - apparently to Jane, Rachel and Fiona on the Thursday Night at dinner. And again to Fiona after MBM when missing. Rachel saying she was ill and in her apartment and didn't hear the crying didn't help the story though.
As has been said here, that would at least place MBM alive on both the Wed night and the Thurs morn. Bet they didn't think that there would be then people thinking - ahhh so could something have happened to her between Thurs morn and Thurs night !!
Both Kate and Gerry then next mention it in their next two statements.
They had already decided they could deal with the neglect issue when stating they left their children every night so mentioning the crying incident wasn't going to make it any worse. In their minds it just added more weight to the story that they left them alone and without even knowing helped create the title of this thread.
By Mrs F throwing a spanner in the works saying it was Tues (yes I know) a media whirlwind was created, lots of distraction and ending with Mrs F saying its not true and therefore making people think she was lying.
The story then goes back nicely into TM's way they want the story told.

Verdi wrote:

dottyaussie wrote:It was the Kate who mentioned the crying on the Wed first - apparently to Jane, Rachel and Fiona on the Thursday Night at dinner. And again to Fiona after MBM when missing. Rachel saying she was ill and in her apartment and didn't hear the crying didn't help the story though.
As has been said here, that would at least place MBM alive on both the Wed night and the Thurs morn. Bet they didn't think that there would be then people thinking - ahhh so could something have happened to her between Thurs morn and Thurs night !!
Both Kate and Gerry then next mention it in their next two statements.
They had already decided they could deal with the neglect issue when stating they left their children every night so mentioning the crying incident wasn't going to make it any worse. In their minds it just added more weight to the story that they left them alone and without even knowing helped create the title of this thread.
By Mrs F throwing a spanner in the works saying it was Tues (yes I know) a media whirlwind was created, lots of distraction and ending with Mrs F saying its not true and therefore making people think she was lying.
The story then goes back nicely into TM's way they want the story told.

I find this post very confusing.  The crying incident/s cover a heck of a lot of ground if you take notice of the various accounts offered up.  If I may ignore the Tapas groups conflicting accounts for the purpose of this exercise to avoid further confusion - I'll start with the McCanns differing accounts..

Gerry McCann - 4th May 2007

 on the morning of May 3rd, MADELEINE asked her father, GERALD, why he had not come into her bedroom when the twins were crying.

Gerry McCann - 10 May 2007

Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time, between 07H30 and 08H00. When they were having breakfast, MADELEINE addressed her mother and asked her "why didn't you come last night when SEAN and I were crying?"

He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom, with KATE, as she had told him that one or both twins were crying, making much noise.

Gerry McCann - 7th September 2007

When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room and in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn’t sleep.

Kate McCann - 4th May 2007

She reports only one episode where, on the morning of Thursday the 3rd, Madeleine asked the witness why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying.

Kate McCann - 6th September 2007

When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on Tuesday night for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45 p.m., she says that is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, so she stayed to sleep with her and Gerry in their bedroom. She says that before Madeleine appeared in her bedroom, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine came into the room almost at the same time she heard the crying.

Thursday, during breakfast, Madeleine said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room,

Pamela Fenn - 20th August 2007

She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.

Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
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So, according to the parents between them, we are to understand that..

a)  the twins were crying
b)  Madeleine and Sean were crying
c)  Sean and Amelie were crying
d)  Amelie was crying
e)  Sean and Amelie were crying
f)  Amelie was crying
g)  Madeleine was crying

According to Pamela Fenn we are to understand that..


the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
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I'm beginning to wonder if anyone was crying at any day of that week - especially without confirmation from any other source.  If the parents can't get their stories straight how can their friends be expected to corroborate their stories?

Still, it all goes to show that Madeleine was well and truly alive and well on and after Tuesday 1st May 2007 - apparently!

BarryTheHatchet wrote:As none of us were actually there, and know for certain what really did happen. then surely everyone's opinion is nothing more than that - an opinion.  And I actually find it quite offensive to be told that my opinons are "preposterous" and "in the realms of fantasy" just because I don't happen to agree with what other people have posted.