Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

by Verdi 03.06.16 12:43

Worse still in my opinion..

Jane Tanner's Rogatory Interview - April 2008

4078    “Err I think I’ve read somewhere that, was it Ella had a foot operation?”

Reply    “Yes, the week before. It didn’t go…”

4078    “You got your timing’s wrong.”

Reply    “Err yeah the week before we went she was in hospital because she had, well she had a small abscess on her foot which sort of got some bug in it that caused her to have very high temperatures so they had to do a very minor operation just to take the puss out to, you know, to do that, and I think she came out of hospital on the wed, I think it was the Wednesday, and we sort of asked a lot of medical advice as to whether we should go or not and we very, so close that we didn’t go but then in the end we thought well if we go there’s probably more distractions for her there with the friends being there than being stuck at home with us and I say the Doctor said there was no problem in going as long as we kept her out the pool for the first bit so yeah, err so we were this close to, well I say it was almost like we weren’t going to go and then we suddenly at the end of the day said…”

4078    “What if.”

Reply    “Yeah, okay we will go.”

4078    “That’s my stomach started to rumble, that’s rather typical of me at this time of the morning I’m afraid. So by the time you went on holiday, Ella was fit and well?”

Reply    “She was fine apart from err her foot, she couldn’t wear her shoe so we bought her some mike stuff slippers so she was wearing slippers just to keep it covered, but yeah compared to how poorly she was the actual abscess on her foot was tiny, it was sort of a toxic shock type bug so it made her poorly than the actual cut on her foot so to speak.”

4078    “If I just start by the Sunday and ask you what you can remember about it.”

Reply    “Yeah I think that first Sunday Ella didn’t go to the kids club straight away purely because it’s the first day there and obviously because she had been poorly the week before we thought we’d just see how she, how she is you know before she goes, so she didn’t go, she didn’t go to the kids club. I can’t remember if Evie did, I think she probably did, I mean I can’t see any reason why she wouldn’t have done so I think she probably went to the kids club in the morning err I honestly can’t remember what we did that morning.
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duh

- can't remember...

Poor little mite must have been limping badly - wonder if the creche staff noticed?

by **Jill Havern** 03.06.16 12:48

plebgate wrote:
joyce1938 wrote:I wonder if we might be able to know the numbers that were trace by some clever man few years ago possably was on MCF. It is too much for me to do a good job on subject, but it did show where and when these calls were made . does anyone recall this subject being talked about? joyce1938
I remember (I think it was Paulo Reis) posting on 3As a long time ago that there were pings from Mrs.' mobile phone in the vicinity of the apartment but the pings could not place her as actually being in the apartment.

ETA somebody also posted that it could have been someone else using the phone.

Paulo Reis - The deleted call records:Where Was Kate McCann? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

by Doug D 03.06.16 13:50

Verdi:

‘ Poor little mite must have been limping badly - wonder if the creche staff noticed?’

Or a kid coming to the crèche in her slippers!

If her foot was that bad, there had to be mention of it to the nannies and she wouldn’t have been allowed to join in with the others on the beach, in the sea, in the pool etc for risk of further infection.Probably had trouble running around the tennis courts as well.

by Verdi 03.06.16 15:07

Doug D wrote:Verdi:

‘ Poor little mite must have been limping badly - wonder if the creche staff noticed?’

Or a kid coming to the crèche in her slippers!

If her foot was that bad, there had to be mention of it to the nannies and she wouldn’t have been allowed to join in with the others on the beach, in the sea, in the pool etc for risk of further infection.Probably had trouble running around the tennis courts as well.

Quite So! Maybe Catriona Baker wrote the details on the identity bracelet at the beginning of their holiday smilie

.

by Verdi 03.06.16 15:25

I still can't get my head around why Pamela Fenn didn't give her witness statement until 20th August 2007 - information that could have been vital to the investigation.

Snipped..

She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering.

When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
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A missing child that she'd heard crying hysterically for 75 minutes et she didn't want to increase the McCanns suffering? A burglary the previous week she thought might be connected to the child's crying yet she remained silent until 20th August? She heard the patio doors open on this particular occasion but hadn't previously heard anything from the apartment below - not even opening and closing of doors?

I'm beginning to realise why Operation Grange are concentrating on a bungled burglary hypothesis - which reminds me, what is the proposed date for the UK investigation to be archived?

by Liz Eagles 03.06.16 15:42

Verdi wrote:I still can't get my head around why Pamela Fenn didn't give her witness statement until 20th August 2007 - information that could have been vital to the investigation.

Snipped..

She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering.

When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
----------

A missing child that she'd heard crying hysterically for 75 minutes et she didn't want to increase the McCanns suffering? A burglary the previous week she thought might be connected to the child's crying yet she remained silent until 20th August? She heard the patio doors open on this particular occasion but hadn't previously heard anything from the apartment below - not even opening and closing of doors?

I'm beginning to realise why Operation Grange are concentrating on a bungled burglary hypothesis - which reminds me, what is the proposed date for the UK investigation to be archived?

Jenny Murat didn't want to increase the McCann's suffering either. On the contrary, she took to the streets and opened up a little campaign all of her own for people to come forward - you know, just in case they didn't want to talk to the police or maybe they'd hired out their properties without tax declaration/official permission and her way they could just drop a note into a form of suggestion box.

Thoughtful lot weren't they!

by Verdi 03.06.16 15:44

Another thing that sticks out for me is this excerpt from Carol Tranmer's (Pamel Fenn's niece) rogatory interview. Talking of her visit to her aunt at her apartment following the departure of the stealthy stranger exiting the McCanns apartment she continues thus..

DC1485'Was there anyone who called your attention' Think, think well about the location and where you were on this day.

CT' On that day'

DC1485'Besides the individual, obviously.

CT' Besides him...

DC1485'Yes.

CT' No one comes to mind. The one thing that I do remember is that some celebration was going on, but I don't know if it was the Sunday or the Thursday. There was some celebration, next to the pool. I do not know if it was the families, the guests of the complex, but there was something. The only thing I can say is that it could have been Sunday or Thursday. I cannot remember and for this reason I would like to leave out this detail.

DC1485'When you speak of a celebration' was it was a barbeque or a bunch of people in good moods'

CT' Well, it appeared to be a celebration, you know, with all the people in good moods and a lot of noise' not much noise but people were laughing and I do not know if this was on Sunday or Thursday.

DC1485'Yes.

CT' This detail I will not mention since I am not certain if it was Sunday or Thursday. Yes, and I don't want to confuse my recollection with this.

DC1485'Yes.

CT' Mmm, but I believe that there is nothing more. I cannot remember anything more about anyone; nothing more about this.

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Probably of no particular importance but I'm surprised this rowdy poolside function wasn't mentioned by anyone else interviewed in connection with Madeleine's disappearance - particularly the Tapas lot. A poolside wing-ding - sounds right up their street to me.

by Verdi 03.06.16 15:52

@aquilla: Jenny Murat didn't want to increase the McCann's suffering either. On the contrary, she took to the streets and opened up a little campaign all of her own for people to come forward - you know, just in case they didn't want to talk to the police or maybe they'd hired out their properties without tax declaration/official permission and her way they could just drop a note into a form of suggestion box.

Thoughtful lot weren't they!

Oh I haven't forgotten that remarkable incident of goodwill - it's the community spirit you know.

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident. - Page 13 Jennymuratv2vb9_small

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident. - Page 13 Jennymuratv2vb9_small

by Doug D 03.06.16 16:05

‘she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open,’

Just a fairly random thought, the parents supposedly arrived when ‘she heard the patio doors open’.

It has been suggested in the past that the crying could have been a frantic KM, sobbing “Maddie, Maddie”.

If it had been a frantic KM needing to be restrained, hence all the bruising, once some sort of calm was restored, could it have been the patio doors being opened to let some air in or for them to go out onto the balcony rather than coming in?

Three months down the road, would you remember exactly when the crying stopped; as soon as the doors opened or a few minutes before?

by Maria 03.06.16 16:08

Doug D wrote:‘she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open,’

Just a fairly random thought, the parents supposedly arrived when ‘she heard the patio doors open’.

It has been suggested in the past that the crying could have been a frantic KM, sobbing “Maddie, Maddie”.

If it had been a frantic KM needing to be restrained, hence all the bruising, once some sort of calm was restored, could it have been the patio doors being opened to let some air in or for them to go out onto the balcony rather than coming in?

Three months down the road, would you remember exactly when the crying stopped; as soon as the doors opened or a few minutes before?

If there was crying on 1st I'd be inclined to go with your thoughts. By what I know so far I think Madeleine was gone by 1st.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 16:20

Verdi wrote:I still can't get my head around why Pamela Fenn didn't give her witness statement until 20th August 2007 - information that could have been vital to the investigation... [SNIPPED]

It may help to work out WHO was the person who, some time just before Saturday 18 August 2007, planted all those stories in the British tabloid press about (a) the alleged crying incident and (b) the alleged burglary, you know, the one where Mrs Fenn was burgled and leapt up to grab the burglar's ankles just as he leapt out of her first floor window.

(Or not).

How did that person, whoever it was, know exactly what Mrs Fenn was going to say in her statement - which she didn't make until Monday 20 August?

This story required preparation.

I suggest that a group of people decided what should go into her statement, and then...

...Mrs Fenn was approached and told what to say - I think she agreed out of loyalty to her friend Mrs Jennifer Murat and her family. Maybe she did not know that it would all be made so public...

...and then a certain someone was despatched to go round the British mainstream press during the week Mon 13 to Fri 17 August to make sure there was a blizzard of stories about a dramatic crying incident and a vivid burglary in the press that weekend.

I have an idea as to the probably identity of that certain someone winkwink

------

If my suggestions are anywhere near to being correct, it is hardly surprising that Mrs Fenn later came out with:

"It's all rubbish. Ignore it".

On that occasion, I think she was telling the truth

by whodunit 03.06.16 16:23

Is there a police report of the alleged attempted burglary during which Mrs. Fenn grabbed the alleged burglers' ankles?

by jeanmonroe 03.06.16 16:28

whodunit wrote:Is there a police report of the alleged attempted burglary during which Mrs. Fenn grabbed the alleged burglers' ankles?

Dunno.

But there is an alleged story that the McCan'ts were 'seen and heard'............'clutching/grabbing at straws'!

by plebgate 03.06.16 16:48

Get'emGonçalo wrote:
plebgate wrote:
joyce1938 wrote:I wonder if we might be able to know the numbers that were trace by some clever man few years ago possably was on MCF. It is too much for me to do a good job on subject, but it did show where and when these calls were made . does anyone recall this subject being talked about? joyce1938
I remember (I think it was Paulo Reis) posting on 3As a long time ago that there were pings from Mrs.' mobile phone in the vicinity of the apartment but the pings could not place her as actually being in the apartment.

ETA somebody also posted that it could have been someone else using the phone.
Paulo Reis - The deleted call records:Where Was Kate McCann? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

Thanks GEG.

by joyce1938 03.06.16 16:56

Thanks from me too gmg, a very good read with some questions that were never asked I would think? joyce1938

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 16:56

whodunit wrote:Is there a police report of the alleged attempted burglary during which Mrs. Fenn grabbed the alleged burglers' ankles?

@ whodunit The short answer is 'No'.

The slightly longer, and more accurate answer, 'There is absolutely no evidence that it ever was reported'.

At this link: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11905-was-there-an-attempted-burglary-of-mrs-pamela-fenns-flat-in-the-weeks-before-madeleine-was-reported-missing

...I collated all the references I could find to this alleged burglary - all reproduced at the above link - and found an absolute mass of contradictions about it. It would only take a few minutes to have a read through these reports and see just how many flat contradictions there are about it.

I than analysed these contradictions and I reproduce that analysis below - the bit in red refers to the issue of whether this incident was ever reported:

==========================

The analysis

When did it happen?

‘Previous week’ – Mrs Fenn

‘Two weeks before’ – Mail on Sunday

‘Three weeks before’ – Sun

‘Weeks before’ (unspecified) – Mirror

The ‘weeks before (unspecified) Madeline disappeared’ – Express, 18/8

The weeks (unspecified) leading up to Madeleine’s disappearance – Telegraph

Who was there?

‘Niece [Carole Tranmer] was there, and saw the man’ - Mail on Sunday

All other reports – no mention of her

How did the burglar get in?

The man ‘broke in’ - Mirror

‘broke in through the first-floor window' - Express, 23/8

‘No sign of a break in’ – Mirror

‘No sign of a break in’ – Express, 10/8

‘May have had a key’ Mirror

‘Let himself in with a key’ Express 18/8

‘May have used a key to the front door’ – Express, 18/8

‘Must have somehow come in through the front door’ – Express, 18/8

‘There was no apparent sign of a break-in and it is thought the man may have had a key to let himself into the flat’ – Telegraph

What was Mrs Fenn doing at the time?

‘Watching TV in the evening’ – Express, 18/8

What exactly happened?

Mrs Fenn ‘found him in her apartment’ – Express ,18/8

Mrs Fenn ‘heard a noise in her bedroom and went to investigate’ – Express, 18/8

Mrs Fenn ‘heard a noise as she watched television and found a man escaping through her bedroom window’ – Mail on Sunday

‘The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window’ – Express, 18/8

‘Disturbed him and he ‘jumped’ out of the window’ – Express, 23/8

Mrs Fenn ‘discovered a man scrambling out of the window’ – Express, 18/8

Mrs Fenn ‘disturbed him’ – Sun

Mrs Fenn ‘scared him off’ – Express, 18/8

Mrs Fenn ‘ scared him off’ – Mail on Sunday

Mrs Fenn ‘scared off the intruder’ - Telegraph

Mrs Fenn ‘found the man scrambling out of the window’ – Mirror

Mrs Fenn ‘tried to grab his ankle’ – Mirror

Mrs Henn ‘tried to grab his ankle’ - Express, 18/8

Mrs Fenn ‘was ‘terrified’' – Express, 18/8

Mrs Fenn ‘shaken up after the break-in’ – Express, 18/8

Mrs Fenn ‘just saw the back of his head and arm’- Express, 18/8

Mrs Fenn ‘tried to push him out of the window' – Express, 18/8

Did Mrs Fenn report it?

‘Yes’ (but they didn’t question her ‘again’) – Mirror

‘Yes’ - ‘shaking with fear and called the police’ – Express, 18/8

‘Reported to police’ – Express, 18/8

No - ‘She did not think it significant’ – Express, 23/8

No - 'Nothing was stolen'

‘She did not initially report it to the police’ – Express, 23/8

The contradictions and questions

1 When? One week before? Two weeks? Three weeks? Several weeks?

2 Carole Tranmer there – or not there?

3 How did the burglar get in? With a key? Through the window?

4 Where was Mrs Fenn watching TV? How did he get to the bedroom without disturbing her? – via the front door, climbed through the window, or did he sneak past her whilst she was engrossed with the TV?

5 ’Phoned the police – or didn’t report it?

6 Found him already escaping?

7 Jumped out of the window, or was ‘scrambling out of the window’?

8 Tried to push him, or grab his ankle?

9 What was Carole Tranmer doing (if she was there)? We only learnt that she ‘saw’ the man

10 If he entered or left by a window, which was it? How far would he have had to jump?

11 Did he land safely? What happened next? Did anyone else hear him?

Poll Question

Did any such burglary actually take place?

by whodunit 03.06.16 17:02

@Tony Bennett---"Poll Question

Did any such burglary actually take place?"

For me the answer is clearly 'no', which calls into question everything else she said.

by BarryTheHatchet 03.06.16 17:14

For me the answer is clearly 'no', which calls into question everything else she said.

But according to all of those reports above, she didn't actually say anything at all. The MSM did, though, and we all know how truthful they are. No wonder the poor woman didn't want to get involved.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 17:38

whodunit wrote:@Tony Bennett---"Poll Question

Did any such burglary actually take place?"

For me the answer is clearly 'no', which calls into question everything else she said.

YES.

If the burglary incident never happened, then neither did the crying incident, and consequently no reliance can be placed on anything Mrs Fenn said in her statement.

Mrs Fenn was 81 at the time, was no doubt on friendly terms with the Murat family, and was somehow cajoled into iving a fabricated account to the police.

Little wonder that this vulnerable old lady was distressed when journalists In Portugal got wind of what she had been telling the PJ - and outright denied what the papers had been reporting.

Those who manufactured her statement have a helluva lot to answer for.

by plebgate 03.06.16 17:43

BarryTheHatchet wrote:

For me the answer is clearly 'no', which calls into question everything else she said.
But according to all of those reports above, she didn't actually say anything at all. The MSM did, though, and we all know how truthful they are. No wonder the poor woman didn't want to get involved.

Is her friend still alive? Why can't Op Grange contact her if she is and ask her if the conversation Mrs. Fenn reported did happen?

by whodunit 03.06.16 18:04

BarryTheHatchet wrote:

For me the answer is clearly 'no', which calls into question everything else she said.
But according to all of those reports above, she didn't actually say anything at all. The MSM did, though, and we all know how truthful they are. No wonder the poor woman didn't want to get involved.

I am as skeptical and distrustful of the MSM as the next person but I am reluctant to believe they made up the burglary story out of whole cloth. I can believe they were 'receiving' accounts of a burglary from 'sources close to the investigation' ie Clarence Mitchell, but many of the stories involved Mrs. Fenn's niece who could have publicly contradicted the reports but afaik she did not..

I believe Mrs. Fenn was either coerced or otherwise prevailed upon to fabricate both incidents, burglary/crying. It cleared up SO many dilemmas for TM at a crucial point in the investigation. Just too, too convenient and frankly not at all plausible but it did the [PR] job.

by plebgate 03.06.16 18:41

Talking of asking Mrs. Fenn's friend if the conversation took place (if she is still alive), she could also be asked whether the burglary info. is correct. If Mrs. Fenn rang her about the crying incident then she would have told her of an attempted burglary.

by Nina 03.06.16 18:46

Poor Mrs Fenn RIP. Being called a liar.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 18:52

whodunit wrote:
BarryTheHatchet wrote:

For me the answer is clearly 'no', which calls into question everything else she said.
But according to all of those reports above, she didn't actually say anything at all. The MSM did, though, and we all know how truthful they are. No wonder the poor woman didn't want to get involved.

I am as skeptical and distrustful of the MSM as the next person but I am reluctant to believe they made up the burglary story out of whole cloth. I can believe they were 'receiving' accounts of a burglary from 'sources close to the investigation' ie Clarence Mitchell, but many of the stories involved Mrs. Fenn's niece who could have publicly contradicted the reports but afaik she did not..

I believe Mrs. Fenn was either coerced or otherwise prevailed upon to fabricate both incidents, burglary/crying. It cleared up SO many dilemmas for TM at a crucial point in the investigation. Just too, too convenient and frankly not at all plausible but it did the [PR] job.

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident. - Page 13 Nail_o10

by Liz Eagles 03.06.16 19:03

Nina wrote:Poor Mrs Fenn RIP. Being called a liar.

I don't think Mrs. Fenn is being called a liar. I think she was easily preyed upon. A single lady, an octogenarian expat with possibly nothing in her life going on other than to speak to other expats on the telephone and along comes Jenny Murat, the doyenne of PdL who sets up her own campaign whilst her son is translating for the police.

You're quite right here Nina, poor Mrs. Fenn.

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.