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"Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by MRNOODLES on 25.04.16 23:07

@Cheshire Cat wrote:The procedure for cremation is different in Portugal. It is usual for a church service to be held with the coffin present and then the coffin is transported to the crematorium for incineration. The service is not held at the crematorium itself. The crematorium facility referred to by Goncalo was serving the entire Algarve region at the time. If Maddies body was placed in the coffin and it was an Anglican funeral service conducted by Hubbard then little risk of of discovery. The coffin would be whisked up to the facility and destroyed. Ashes and bones are ground into powder after the incineration so little chance of any DNA evidence.

I think question raised the doubt was.  Would fragments from a 2nd body be easily spotted?

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by dottyaussie on 25.04.16 23:49

This is information regarding requirements for death/dying in Portugal.

https://www.angloinfo.com/portugal/how-to/portugal-healthcare-death-dying

It also gives a link to civil registry offices where the death needs to be registered within 48hrs. 

Now if there was only someone who could go and have a little peek at the records for 2007.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by Verdi on 25.04.16 23:52

@MRNOODLES wrote:
@Cheshire Cat wrote:The procedure for cremation is different in Portugal. It is usual for a church service to be held with the coffin present and then the coffin is transported to the crematorium for incineration. The service is not held at the crematorium itself. The crematorium facility referred to by Goncalo was serving the entire Algarve region at the time. If Maddies body was placed in the coffin and it was an Anglican funeral service conducted by Hubbard then little risk of of discovery. The coffin would be whisked up to the facility and destroyed. Ashes and bones are ground into powder after the incineration so little chance of any DNA evidence.

I think question raised the doubt was.  Would fragments from a 2nd body be easily spotted?
Normal course of events following a cremation, the ashes are stored in an urne or scattered about somewhere significant to the deceased..


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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by mysticmeg on 26.04.16 6:19

@jeanmonroe wrote:She said this...

Isabel Oliveira 3 shadows of people seen going to the church during night with a bag . There was a coffin in the church with an old lady that was incinerated next day in Ferreira do Alentejo. This is in a police document
------------------------------------
Yes, it's about an elderly British woman, who died with no relatives, whose coffin was in the PdL church that night before the next day's ceremony and afterwards cremated.
--------------------------------------------
The investigator in the reform states that it is necessary to follow leads as the "incineration Madeleine's body in a coffin of a British súbdita" and access the medical records of the girl in the UK, which has never been allowed."

I think súbdita translates as subject/citizen.

So the coffin of a British subject/citizen?
----------------------------------------
canada12 Today at 11:01 am (THX)

There was a lot of speculation in 2007 that Madeleine's body had been cremated but iirc, the focus was on animal cremations and a nearby animal crematorium that had been shut. The speculation was that somehow they'd managed to hide Madeleine's body inside the body of an animal that had been taken to the crematorium. But I can see how this might have been a diversionary tactic to divert the speculation away from a more obvious conclusion, that her body had been hidden inside a coffin in the church. This makes complete sense if true. The McCanns asked for the key to the church and had unprecedented access. IIRC there was speculation at the time that her body had been hidden in a coffin but I'm not sure anyone was ever able to identify who had died around that time, or, indeed, IF anyone had died around that time. Obviously if this is true, the police will have had access to all the church records concerning the funeral and the cremation, and they will know what happened to the ashes. If they're lucky, the ashes are still held somewhere. I know from personal experience that sometimes not all of a body is reduced to ashes. Things like teeth and bone fragments often survive the fire. If they are able to identify, for instance, a tooth or a partial tooth that's obviously a child's tooth, then that might be the smoking gun. Or a bone fragment that can be identified as having come from a child rather than an adult. I wonder if you can extract DNA from cremation ashes. If you can't, then I wonder if sometime in the future it would be possible. If so, and the ashes are still held, then it might be something that a Cold Case investigation might solve at some future point.

Interesting development.
----------------------------------
FACT!

Witness Statement
Date: 2007/05/16 Hours: 15h25m

Rui Segio Lopes Silva

Occupation: GNR Officer

He was immediately sent to one of the search zones, initially accompanied by the post commander.

He never entered the McCann apartment the girl disappeared from.

He only had direct contact with the couple and their friends at about 04.00am when Gerry McCann approached the GNR group of which he was a member to ask whether there was a church close by. He replied to him in English, giving the directions to a nearby church.

4:00am (04/05/2007)

When David P and GM 'went out, again' to erm, 'search'

eta: McCanns, the devout Catholics have been in PDL for almost a week and 'don't know' where  one, of only three, churches are in PDL.

And the 'other' leg has got bells on!

etaa: 'missing' blue sports bag?

IF the GNR officer can 'identify' a church, he gave GM the 'directions to', and IF a 'subject' WAS in a coffin 'there', or just a coffin,........who knows where this will 'lead'.......
It does strike me that where there has been an attempt to fabricate an alternative scenario (i.e. cremation at an animal facility) this only serves as reinforcement that cremation is more of a likelihood as opposed to any other disposal method (eg. burial at sea - which doesn't appear to have any suggestion of two opposing scenarios.)  Fantastic that GA can now speak out freely again and I hope his recommendations are acted upon in Portugal.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by Estelle on 26.04.16 6:37

..."and access to medical records girl in the UK, which has never been allowed."


This is also important for the investigation to know about.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by whatsupdoc on 26.04.16 6:52

@Estelle wrote:..."and access to medical records girl in the UK, which has never been allowed."


This is also important for the investigation to know about.

This alone is covering up facts.

The urn is surely "In plain site".

I've just read a post on MM by Wintabells which is new to me. Who has some footage of Kate entering / leaving the church being careful not to open the door too much?
I suppose you don't want a whoosh of wind and the door slamming shut at 5 in the morning? winkwink

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t29083-investigate-the-incinerated-body-thesis-goncalo-amaral

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by MayMuse on 26.04.16 6:53

@Estelle wrote:..."and access to medical records girl in the UK, which has never been allowed."


This is also important for the investigation to know about.
Why would they not allow the medical records to be released to the Pj? This has always confused me and that financial information requested was blocked too? 

This surely must have been a huge red flag to the Pj & their investigation as wasn't it the UK police who denied them these details? (Scratches head) 

Perhaps it's time that SY started to play 'hardball' instead of dancing the 'mcanndango' IMO

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by MayMuse on 26.04.16 7:02

Not sure if true, but I did read ages ago that the 'urn' was supposedly a piggy bank?! 
I do find the 'mantelpiece' display quite odd though. sad

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 7:58

@MayMuse wrote:Not sure if true, but I did read ages ago that the 'urn' was supposedly a piggy bank?! 
I do find the 'mantelpiece' display quite odd though. sad
I think you are right.

I too remember a discussion and it was deemed a piggy bank.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 8:03

Similar to this:


They are called ceramic money pots.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 8:05

Where's Walley?

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by Cheshire Cat on 26.04.16 8:06

@BlueBag wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:Not sure if true, but I did read ages ago that the 'urn' was supposedly a piggy bank?! 
I do find the 'mantelpiece' display quite odd though. sad
I think you are right.

I too remember a discussion and it was deemed a piggy bank.
I don't see how the ashes would be recoverable anyway - they would be a blend of Maddies and the elderly lady who died!

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 8:13

Interesting decision to have a money pot as the centre-piece of their Madeleine shrine.

(For the sake of the forum monitors - I know... they probably made a thing about writing messages for Madeleine for when she returns).

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 26.04.16 8:26

@BlueBag wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:Not sure if true, but I did read ages ago that the 'urn' was supposedly a piggy bank?! 
I do find the 'mantelpiece' display quite odd though. sad
I think you are right.

I too remember a discussion and it was deemed a piggy bank.
http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t1500-what-s-in-the-urn-on-your-mantlepiece?highlight=mantlepiece

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by canada12 on 26.04.16 8:41

Perhaps the medical records were withheld because they'd show Madeleine didn't have a coloboma? Just a thought.

Additionally, I recall speculation that since she was an IVF child, perhaps Gerry wasn't the biological father.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 26.04.16 8:49

@canada12 wrote:Perhaps the medical records were withheld because they'd show Madeleine didn't have a coloboma? Just a thought.

Additionally, I recall speculation that since she was an IVF child, perhaps Gerry wasn't the biological father.
Madeleine looks like a McCann to me although I've always thought she looks more like John McCann than Gerry!


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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 8:53

Yes.. that's a good comparison picture.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by whatsupdoc on 26.04.16 8:57

@canada12 wrote:Perhaps the medical records were withheld because they'd show Madeleine didn't have a coloboma? Just a thought.

Additionally, I recall speculation that since she was an IVF child, perhaps Gerry wasn't the biological father.

Withholding the medical records was a big red flag for me. Maybe the crux of the matter.

There have been some serious medical errors made in the past so who knows 100% ?

I couldn't see a slot in the urn so I didn't go with the money pot theory.
The heart on the black oval was odd.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 8:59

Withholding the credit card details was an even bigger red flag for me.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by whatsupdoc on 26.04.16 9:05

@BlueBag wrote:Withholding the credit card details was an even bigger red flag for me.

Yes. IMO I think it may have shown "awkward" payments and possibly tied in with the CATS file.

Otherwise, what was the problem?

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by Portia on 26.04.16 9:18

@BlueBag wrote:Where's Walley?

Sorry, the urn on the mantelpiece is different. It has a stop. The piggybanks don't. They probably open at the bottom with a plastic stop or something similar. The Urn's stop is sealed with a band or a piece of binding materiel, like you would do when you don't want the contents to escape. Like for instance when you seal the cap of your petrol can. And who would put a piggybank with the opening side to the wall? Displaying the drawing of a heart at the front, to any visitors?

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by Cheshire Cat on 26.04.16 9:31

@Portia wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Where's Walley?

Sorry, the urn on the mantelpiece is different. It has a stop. The piggybanks don't. They probably open at the bottom with a plastic stop or something similar. The Urn's stop is sealed with a band or a piece of binding materiel, like you would do when you don't want the contents to escape. Like for instance when you seal the cap of your petrol can. And who would put a piggybank with the opening side to the wall? Displaying the drawing of a heart at the front, to any visitors?
If the corpse of Madeleine was cremated with the lady then it would be impossible to separate Maddies ashes. I suspect once the cremation occurred then that would be the end of the story as far as being able to identify any trace of Madeleine. If GA has more evidence to support this theory then likely to be what the helpful Bishop of the Algarve gleaned when he spoke to the Catholic Priest and sent Mrs Hubbard into a spin.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by ROSA on 26.04.16 9:44

Might be the reason the Mccanns don't seen phased about finding her body etc  that it was inceinnerated in 2007 end ofstory no hope in finding a body blah blah

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For Paulo Sargento, the thesis that Gonçalo Amaral revealed at first hand to "SP" that the blanket could have been used in a funeral ceremony at the Luz chapel "is very interesting".
 
And he adds: "In reality, when the McCanns went to Oprah's Show, the blanket was mentioned. At a given moment, when Oprah tells Kate that she heard her mention a blanket several times, Kate argued that a mother who misses a child always wants to know if she is comfortable, if she is warm, and added, referring to Maddie, that sometimes she asked herself if the person who had taken her would cover her up with her little blanket (but the blanket was on the bed after Maddie, supposedly, disappeared!!!).

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by canada12 on 26.04.16 9:44

@Cheshire Cat wrote:If the corpse of Madeleine was cremated with the lady then it would be impossible to separate Maddies ashes. I suspect once the cremation occurred then that would be the end of the story as far as being able to identify any trace of Madeleine. If GA has more evidence to support this theory then likely to be what the helpful Bishop of the Algarve gleaned when he spoke to the Catholic Priest and sent Mrs Hubbard into a spin.

There might however be bone fragments or tooth fragments in the ashes and if there is sufficient technology to be able to determine if the bone or tooth fragments belonged to a child or an aged adult that would be significant.

I guess it would depend too on where the ashes ended up. Scattered? Or saved somewhere.

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Re: "Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 9:56

@Portia wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Where's Walley?

Sorry, the urn on the mantelpiece is different. It has a stop. The piggybanks don't. They probably open at the bottom with a plastic stop or something similar. The Urn's stop is sealed with a band or a piece of binding materiel, like you would do when you don't want the contents to escape. Like for instance when you seal the cap of your petrol can. And who would put a piggybank with the opening side to the wall? Displaying the drawing of a heart at the front, to any visitors?
You're having a laugh.

I'll give you a clue.

It's the pink circles one with the hearts.

Big enough clue?

Yes that's different to the mantelpiece one which has black circles with hearts.

The "stop" is the same top with a ribbon or cord around it or some such.

Now can we stop this ern nonsense please - it makes us look silly.

http://www.temptationgifts.com/gifts-by-brand/terramundi

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