Re: ***LIVE*** Discussion and comments thread BBC Panorama tonight 25th April 7.30pm

[jd]

and what do the English do? They tell journalists. Well done. Let's think.... you believe a missing little girl is alive somewhere, you have 195 leads, and what do you do.....you make a statement to the press. That looks more like PR, a pretence of working

The French have got it!

[jd]

I agree with you totally. I was suggesting that there may well be a hell of a lot going on behind the scenes. Think of a swan gliding on water. It would be a disgrace if PR was the name of the game. It goes against every policy and procedure in a missing child case where the central issue is the safety of the child.

I also think if the parents have faith in SY they should be giving them the fund money to assist them and the Portuguese if they get involved again.

if they were serious in their beliefs, they would be spending all their time following them up, not giving interviews on morning chat shows.

[russiandoll]

and what do the English do? They tell journalists. Well done. Let's think.... you believe a missing little girl is alive somewhere, you have 195 leads, and what do you do.....you make a statement to the press. That looks more like PR, a pretence of working

The French have got it!

yes haven't they just....... and I took time to translate that because I agree, so please jd do not make the mistake of thinking I agree with SYs behaviour in public..........[ on a chat show?! i never knew that.bloody hell, our police will be a laughing stock ]
I am the one who has been going on ad infinitum about the non -release of that new photo which could help find a living Maddie according to SY.....UNTIL NOW !!!
just hoping they are using a strategy aimed at getting Portugal on board and a reconstrucion done, or put the couple in a position where they can say why they wont go back....

[jd]

just hoping they are using a strategy aimed at getting Portugal on board and a reconstrucion done, or put the couple in a position where they can say why they wont go back....

They are certainly going the wrong way about it. They are discrediting a countries police force and just plainly lying in the process

But there are no new leads, if they were no police force would behave like this going to the media & would be acting on them instead. Reading through comments on the news articles I think they are achieving their aim, many sheeps now blaming the PJ for Maddie not being found and in sympathy with the mccanns. Now they are getting this renewed sympathy vote just in time for 5th anniversary next week!

[Guest]

I`ve seen the Guardian report which states that Redwood has dismissed the Mccanns involvement as " conspiracy theories" ( although this is not a direct quote from him).

Can someone help me and let me know if he said this on Panorama ( I did not watch it to save my blood pressure butI don`t think he did from what others have said here)? Has he actually said this in any other television interview? And it is reported anywhere else in the UK press ( some non-UK publications may have just copied the Guardian article)?

Thanks.

[tigger]

and what do the English do? They tell journalists. Well done. Let's think.... you believe a missing little girl is alive somewhere, you have 195 leads, and what do you do.....you make a statement to the press. That looks more like PR, a pretence of working

The French have got it!

yes haven't they just....... and I took time to translate that because I agree, so please jd do not make the mistake of thinking I agree with SYs behaviour in public..........[ on a chat show?! i never knew that.bloody hell, our police will be a laughing stock ]
I am the one who has been going on ad infinitum about the non -release of that new photo which could help find a living Maddie according to SY.....UNTIL NOW !!!
just hoping they are using a strategy aimed at getting Portugal on board and a reconstrucion done, or put the couple in a position where they can say why they wont go back....

Gypsypeg (a troll I think) called me hysterical when I said AR had no business appearing in a documentary whilst in the middle of an investigation.
But the timing! Any other time, end of June, February, but nowhere near crucial dates that are going to get the public stampeding to buy TM's account of the truth. Because this amounts to blatant propaganda for the bewk, the epilogue and all things McCann.
The clear impression given is that TM is in the clear, that all this tax money is spent because there is a very good chance all of a sudden that Maddie is alive.
They skated over the DNA ( and regarding that GB: I hope your prize roses get the wilt, I hope your shoelaces will become undone as you go down the stairs, I hope the cook is off sick on the night of your big dinner party) - Russian Doll, used to read a lot of Francois Villon: que Dieu lui donne, et voir, et voir, ce que je pense, etcetera...

(what's this about a chat show?)

[Pershing36]

I`ve seen the Guardian report which states that Redwood has dismissed the Mccanns involvement as " conspiracy theories" ( although this is not a direct quote from him).

Can someone help me and let me know if he said this on Panorama ( I did not watch it to save my blood pressure butI don`t think he did from what others have said here)? Has he actually said this in any other television interview? And it is reported anywhere else in the UK press ( some non-UK publications may have just copied the Guardian article)?

Thanks.

I think people are still clinging on to the hope that this would be a totally open investigation/review. Unfortunately as it goes on it only seems to be concentrating on the scenario which the McCann's insist happened.

I feel more certain as time goes on the SY review will finish with a verdict of abducted by unknown person/persons.

[Miraflores]

but nowhere near crucial dates that are going to get the public
stampeding to buy TM's account of the truth. Because this amounts to
blatant propaganda for the bewk, the epilogue and all things McCann.
The
clear impression given is that TM is in the clear, that all this tax
money is spent because there is a very good chance all of a sudden that
Maddie is alive.

All that, and a convenient time for the government to bury the bad news that the country is in double-dip recession, and that there are elections coming up in some parts of the country. Much better to get the sheep speculating on the fate of a missing child.

[Miraflores]

I feel more certain as time goes on the SY review will finish with a verdict of abducted by unknown person/persons.

I agree, but the whiff of suspicion will still cling to the McCanns.

[Guest]

Thanks Pershing 36. But what I am trying to get at is how frequently Redwood has been saying that he has completely discounted the idea that the Mccanns were involved. Is it just the Guardian article? Or has he actually been saying that in television interviews?

I am trying to keep optimistic, but if Redwood is on record exonerating the Mccanns in a number of different places.......

And then we are back to the same question? Why? Why are the Mccanns being allowed to get away with this?

[Guest]

Sun Says


Maddie insult





Last Updated: 27th April 2012

ARROGANCE is piled on incompetence as Portuguese police snub pleas to reopen the Madeleine McCann inquiry.







They say they will act only on “credible and relevant” new facts.



Scotland Yard officers have established no fewer than 195 fresh lines of inquiry and say Madeleine may still be alive.



Yet Portuguese detectives insultingly dismiss their work and wreck the hopes of Kate and Gerry McCann, who had been “hugely encouraged” by the Yard’s painstaking investigation.



When 195 new leads are discovered, lack of evidence seems an unlikely reason for this shameful decision.



Isn’t it more likely that Portugal is deeply embarrassed by the unprofessional way it bungled the search for Madeleine when she vanished five years ago?



In their eagerness to blame Kate and Gerry, local cops missed crucial clues. Now, despite so much important new information, they ignore what might be a genuine chance of finding Madeleine alive or discovering the truth.



Have they no children themselves? And have they no consciences?



Rank holiday




THE mother of Parliaments is set to enjoy the mother of all holidays.



MPs are due to take yet another break next week, with more to come. By June 11 they will probably have spent only 19 out of 75 days in the Commons.



When Parliament is so lazy, what example does it set the country?



A Kent employer complained yesterday that seven newly-hired workers never bothered to show up.



They blamed the rain and the cushiness of life on benefits.

With our Forces at war, the economy in recession and huge issues from Europe to immigration to occupy them, aren’t we entitled to expect our highly-paid MPs to show Britain more dedication?



Instead, they put their sun tans before their electors.



Strife terms




YET again the justice system looks a joke.



A thousand killers, rapists and thugs out on licence are on the run having ignored prison recall orders.



Meanwhile, thanks to a Labour promise, taxpayers face a £2million bill to keep African war criminal Charles Taylor in a British jail.



So we can’t keep our own monsters behind bars, but we’re happy to pay a fortune to cage a foreign tyrant.



As The Sun has observed before, you don’t have to be mad to live here. But it helps.

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[jd]

I want to get out of this country. I am just sickened by it now

[tiny]

Sun Says


Maddie insult





Last Updated: 27th April 2012

ARROGANCE is piled on incompetence as Portuguese police snub pleas to reopen the Madeleine McCann inquiry.







They say they will act only on “credible and relevant” new facts.



Scotland Yard officers have established no fewer than 195 fresh lines of inquiry and say Madeleine may still be alive.



Yet Portuguese detectives insultingly dismiss their work and wreck the hopes of Kate and Gerry McCann, who had been “hugely encouraged” by the Yard’s painstaking investigation.



When 195 new leads are discovered, lack of evidence seems an unlikely reason for this shameful decision.



Isn’t it more likely that Portugal is deeply embarrassed by the unprofessional way it bungled the search for Madeleine when she vanished five years ago?



In their eagerness to blame Kate and Gerry, local cops missed crucial clues. Now, despite so much important new information, they ignore what might be a genuine chance of finding Madeleine alive or discovering the truth.



Have they no children themselves? And have they no consciences?



Rank holiday




THE mother of Parliaments is set to enjoy the mother of all holidays.



MPs are due to take yet another break next week, with more to come. By June 11 they will probably have spent only 19 out of 75 days in the Commons.



When Parliament is so lazy, what example does it set the country?



A Kent employer complained yesterday that seven newly-hired workers never bothered to show up.



They blamed the rain and the cushiness of life on benefits.

With our Forces at war, the economy in recession and huge issues from Europe to immigration to occupy them, aren’t we entitled to expect our highly-paid MPs to show Britain more dedication?



Instead, they put their sun tans before their electors.



Strife terms




YET again the justice system looks a joke.



A thousand killers, rapists and thugs out on licence are on the run having ignored prison recall orders.



Meanwhile, thanks to a Labour promise, taxpayers face a £2million bill to keep African war criminal Charles Taylor in a British jail.



So we can’t keep our own monsters behind bars, but we’re happy to pay a fortune to cage a foreign tyrant.



As The Sun has observed before, you don’t have to be mad to live here. But it helps.

[url=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/244723/The-Sun-says-Maddie-insult.html

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just one question for the sun,WHY DO YOU NOT ASK THE MCCANNS WHY THEY WOULDNT DO A RE-CONSTRUCTION TO HELP FIND THIER DAUGHTER.after all they have the timelines to fall back on if they cant remember.

[tigger]

I want to get out of this country. I am just sickened by it now

Don't! Murdoch rules, but he is in his eighties and in fact looks about a hundred.

Why has Britain been cursed with these government and media ayatollahs? TB right from the start (he quoted the OT when elected leader of the labour party) closet catholic, TB turning up for the baptism of Murdoch's daughter - very modestly! on the banks of the Jordan. Is godfather to her I believe.
Murdoch, imo still hates Britain and that would explain a lot.

Don't give up on Britain, just don't believe the media.

[Guest]

From the Portugalnews....



Madeleine: Re-open case, Portugal told
28/4/2012

The case of Madeleine McCann has hit the headlines days before the fifth anniversary of her disappearance. The Metropolitan Police Service on Wednesday said their objective was now to have the case “re-opened”. But this decision rests solely on the Attorney-General’s office in Lisbon, which has repeatedly said it would re-open the case “should new evidence emerge”. On Wednesday, they learnt that Scotland Yard had “uncovered evidence during a review and believe Madeleine is still alive”.

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A murder team within the Homicide and Serious Crime Command, led by Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said this week that its year-long investigative review into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has resulted in the emergence of new information.

Scotland Yard declined to disclose what evidence they had uncovered.

The review team has cost British taxpayers in excess of £2 million and was created in the wake of calls by News Corporation titles The Sun and The Sunday Times on Prime Minister David Cameron to order a review into the case – which he did soon afterwards in May 2011.

The Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) expressed support of the team’s creation, dubbed Operation Grange, saying detectives “are in a unique position in that their task is to compile and review material from three separate strands - the Portuguese investigation, inquiries by UK law enforcement agencies, and the work of private investigators/agencies.”

Officers have made two trips to Spain and visited Portugal four times, most recently last week.

The team of officers is said to be methodically going through material which they believe amounts to around 40,000 pieces of information equating to approximately 100,000 pages.

The intention is to identify from investigative opportunities which they will then present to the Portuguese authorities.

Officers have so far identified around 195 such opportunities within the historic material, and are also developing what they believe to be “genuinely new material”.

“The objective of the review team is to work with the Portuguese authorities with a view to having the case, which has remained closed since 2008, re-opened in due course”, the MPS said.

“From the outset we have approached this review with a completely open mind, placing Madeleine McCann at the heart of everything we do. We are working on the basis of two possibilities here. One is that Madeleine is still alive; and the second that she is sadly dead”, said DCI Andy Redwood.

UK police said they also want to speak to people who were on holiday or living in Praia da Luz between 28 April and 3 May 2007.

This call reportedly emanates from the belief in Scotland Yard that not all people in the resort were interviewed by Portuguese police. It has also emerged that while Portuguese police have a huge amount of mobile phone cell site evidence in their possession, it apparently failed to analyse the information.

A review team was also set up in Portugal and the task of liaising with Scotland Yard was given to a team of detectives from the Polícia Judiciária (PJ) in Oporto.

The team of detectives is under the guidance of Helena Monteiro and it is believed they only started their review this year.

Police sources say the case has been handed to Oporto police to allow for a fresh look by detectives who are close to the case.

Gonçalo Amaral, who led the investigation for the first six months following Madeleine’s disappearance, was unimpressed with the timing of the release of the MPS statement.

Speaking to The Portugal News following the release of “new information”, he said: “The timing of all this falls into the folkloric and commemorative spirit of this time of the year. But as a Portuguese citizen, the timing of the release of this information on 25 April, when Portugal is commemorating Freedom Day and the creation of democracy, concerns me. It seems that 38 years after the April Revolution we are still subject to the orders of foreign powers.”

But he stressed that he was in full agreement that the case be re-opened.

“We were always against the closing of the case and the interruption of the investigation”, he said.

Questioned on what should be done first should the case be re-opened, Mr Amaral, who is facing libel charges from Kate and Gerry McCann, said: “There is a fundamental police act which will serve to remove contradictions, inconsistencies and lies relating to the disappearance of the child. We are referring to a reconstruction.”

The case was formally shelved in July 2008 by the Attorney-General who said it would be re-opened should new evidence emerge.

The Attorney-General’s Office was not immediately available to comment on the developments during the 25 April bank holiday.

Madeleine McCann disappeared from Praia da Luz on 3 May 2007 from an apartment where she was sleeping with her younger twin brother and sister while her parents dined at a nearby restaurant.

The MPS have asked non-UK residents who believe they may have information relating to this case, to call +44 2071580 126 or contact police in Lisbon on 218 641 000.

Brendan de Beer

Edition: 1162



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[Guest]

On Wednesday, they learnt that Scotland Yard had “uncovered evidence during a review and believe Madeleine is still alive”.

So they (PJ) only found out on Wednesday, the day of the Panorama programme that SY had uncovered this evidence, you really couldn't make it up. So much for collaboration.

[Zozo]

McCanns to speak publicly next week, I thought they said they weren't doing any interviews just last week..........

Last night a source close to the McCanns said: “Kate and Gerry agree with what Scotland Yard on Wednesday. They will speak publicly next week.”

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What they would be saying worth to hear? Nothing as usually. It will be adding oil to fire or adding insult to injury, Just fuelling more and more frustration between two police forces of two countries.
In case some questions asked of course it will those ones they want to be asked, just prepared especially for them to please them.
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Nothing surprise me any more

[Spaniel]

I want to get out of this country. I am just sickened by it now

I feel ashamed at the corruption and how we are viewed by the rest of the World. Heaven only knows what the Portuguese are thinking of us right now, worse even than the French no doubt.

Like her or loathe her, for the first eight or nine years when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister there was a real pride in being British.

[aiyoyo]

If AR was keeping card close to chest, why did he say there are 195 fresh leads that need to be followed up; then pressure (or implore PJ to re-open while on the other hand say it's entirely up to them?

Why not say speak in general without giving number?
What is wrong with saying there are possible leads that need to be eliminated which is indicative enough they're being objective and not giving up on looking for a live Maddie. Vaguely giving a general idea and leave the rest for people to second guess is good enough imo.

Why say this is a crime of stranger abduction, and there are x number of leads to follow up, behind the back of your review?
Why put pressure on them to reopen, if reopening is mutual objective they both are still working and waiting for opportune time?
The way he did it appears to me it is a joint review only in name, in actual fact each is doing their own review without consultation with each other. I get the impression they dont consult or share views. In other words, the Yard is reviewing it to come up with a recommendation for the PJ, and not that they are joint reviewing the evidence. The joint is all in name to allow the Brits to lay their hands on unreleased files.

Otherwise being an experienced and professional sr police detective surely AR should have at least basic PR and marketing skills (to bullshit basically) to get out of an unwanted interview situation. But he's doing none of that. He went so far to say he wants "closure for the family". There was no need to include that if this is about playing the blinder and his wider agenda is something else.

I

[Guest]

I feel ashamed at the corruption and how we are viewed by the rest of the World. Heaven only knows what the Portuguese are thinking of us right now, worse even than the French no doubt.

The Eurovision song contest is next month and that's always a good indication of how much we're hated.

[tigger]

I feel ashamed at the corruption and how we are viewed by the rest of the World. Heaven only knows what the Portuguese are thinking of us right now, worse even than the French no doubt.

The Eurovision song contest is next month and that's always a good indication of how much we're hated.

Grande Bretagne = nil points.....

[Miraflores]

Not entirley apropos of this thread but as good here as anywhere. There is a long thread going on Mumsnet about MM. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Needless to say anything which point out the MccCann's contradictory statements gets whooshed pdq. And we are being very careful not to be accusatory.

[monkey mind]

If evidence ever arose to charge the McCanns and a prosecution followed, the defense team would make an absolute mountain of the Panorama program and the subsequent interview where the lead investigator, Redwood, nailed his colours to the mast by pronouncing with surety that it was a crime committed by a stranger. The investigating team are fully aware of this. It would be hugely detrimental to the case from a prosecution standpoint. They aren't lulling anyone into a false sense of security nor is it a ruse. They don't operate that way I promise you.

They have said what they think has happened, a stranger crime, and that is how they will unflinchingly pursue the investigation unless some monumental piece of evidence arises which is impossible to ignore. I'm not happy to say this but I know what I am talking about here.

And, just because a man is a DCI, doesn't mean he is competent I can promise you that too, experienced, yes, but not necessarily competent. Take Redwoods boss, Commander Foy who headed up the Jill Dando debacle. When I heard they had arrested a *stalker* I said without fear of being wrong that when it came to trial there would be no credible evidence against him and it was so. Only very poor circumstantial evidence. It was only the fact that it was such a high profile case that the jury felt obliged to convict. If it had been anyone else he would have walked away rightly free. It was never a stalker killing, it was an execution, no doubt about that - unless of course you were charged with investigating the crime.... and he still thinks he was right, but fortunately for the innocent man who spent 8 years in prison, the courts do not....

[Spaniel]

On Wednesday, they learnt that Scotland Yard had “uncovered evidence during a review and believe Madeleine is still alive”.

So they (PJ) only found out on Wednesday, the day of the Panorama programme that SY had uncovered this evidence, you really couldn't make it up. So much for collaboration.

Pt and PJ have been sold down the river candyfloss and I for one am disgusted. To offer collaboration to the British and then be turned on is treacherous.

Reading comments from the general public on Digital Spy and the Sun this morning, the vast majority formed their views from the media.

In fact some start their comments, "Only what I've read about the Portuguese police but", or even worse "I won't be going to Portugal ever again cause the police don't give a damn about a missing kid." Sheeple indeed.

[tigger]

If evidence ever arose to charge the McCanns and a prosecution followed, the defense team would make an absolute mountain of the Panorama program and the subsequent interview where the lead investigator, Redwood, nailed his colours to the mast by pronouncing with surety that it was a crime committed by a stranger. The investigating team are fully aware of this. It would be hugely detrimental to the case from a prosecution standpoint. They aren't lulling anyone into a false sense of security nor is it a ruse. They don't operate that way I promise you.

They have said what they think has happened, a stranger crime, and that is how they will unflinchingly pursue the investigation unless some monumental piece of evidence arises which is impossible to ignore. I'm not happy to say this but I know what I am talking about here.

And, just because a man is a DCI, doesn't mean he is competent I can promise you that too, experienced, yes, but not necessarily competent. Take Redwoods boss, Commander Foy who headed up the Jill Dando debacle. When I heard they had arrested a *stalker* I said without fear of being wrong that when it came to trial there would be no credible evidence against him and it was so. Only very poor circumstantial evidence. It was only the fact that it was such a high profile case that the jury felt obliged to convict. If it had been anyone else he would have walked away rightly free. It was never a stalker killing, it was an execution, no doubt about that - unless of course you were charged with investigating the crime.... and he still thinks he was right, but fortunately for the innocent man who spent 8 years in prison, the courts do not....

Monkeymind, you're beautiful! - I'm going by your soul and your mind, obviously not the uncanny likeness?

[Spaniel]

Redwood will be taking a massive risk with his career and the reputation of the Met, which will be irredeemable if it is a case of corruption in an investigation like this. The police perverting the course of justice with regard to the disappearance of a vulnerable British citizen? The force would never come back from that.

They've come back from so many failed cases I can hardly be bothered to list them, but start with Rachel Nickell.

I don't think you quite understand russian doll how certain professions close ranks.

[mrscee]

Not entirley apropos of this thread but as good here as anywhere. There is a long thread going on Mumsnet about MM. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Needless to say anything which point out the MccCann's contradictory statements gets whooshed pdq. And we are being very careful not to be accusatory.

Mumsnet is great at whooshing. I might go and count the number of deleted posts as a straw poll!

[uppatoffee]

If it does turn out that SY are only recommending the reopening of the case due to new leads, what will actually happen?

Portugal is the country where the incident occurred, and I understand from listening to Amaral that the local PJ will continue to be responsible for the case. The Oporto team are just checking that the investigation was carried out correctly. Presumably if asked to reopen the case they would only do so if they can start with a reconstruction - the point it was abandoned at last time. SY would not be a part of the investigation would they? It would need a lot of political pressure to change standard practice. Given the animosity towards the British given recent events, I cannot see how this would happen. Is it a case of be careful what you wish for?

[Guest]

I'm sure everyone wants Madeleine to be alive, but I am afraid, to nail his colours to the mast so early on, only a quarter of the way through, and tell the world this information, doesn't seem professional at all. How can he make such statements so early on. Has he got irrefutable evidence. He should have waited till all the files were looked at, everything was gone through, checked out the 195 leads, and only then, when he, and the PJ had irrefutable evidence one way or another, come out and say the things he said. If he is working in collaboration with the PJ and they have the lead in this case, then surely, it would be up to them to give out this sort of information, or at least jointly in a press conference. I was 100% behind SY but something stinks about all this. How can he say such things so early on, what if in those 75% of files leads to another trail. How is he going to look. It is almost as bad as the Metodo debacle, saying they knew where Madeleine was and they would have her home for Christmas.

[BrokenBritain]

The Portuguese shelved the case.

The McCanns scarpered and didn't request the investigation stayed open.

The McCanns asked David Cameron for a review and have publicly stated they want the case reopened.

The SY say they have new evidence and want the case reopened.

The Portuguese say there is nothing that warrants the case being reopened.

Surely the ball is in the McCanns court now to request the case is reopened?

Could that be what the SY are doing? Trying to force the McCanns to request the reopening?

If they don't then why not? The SY say they have new evidence and the Portuguese want new evidence to reopen. So now it's up to the McC's to do the decent thing.

And if they don't, then why not?