Re: Dr Roberts again - just a short one. Logical, Captain.

by Beanie 18.12.13 22:43

Châtelaine wrote:@Beanie
That's right.
Either they did - and they did it on purpose.
Or they didn't, but used it as an excuse for a failing plan ...

I'm going with the failing plan.

by Guest 18.12.13 22:46

If I'm allowed a little titter

I call them Over The Hills and Far Away ...

Mods, remove, if my sense of humour is ... well ... you know ...

by Woburn_exile 18.12.13 23:16

Woburn, I'm sorry but I'd be very very surprised if 'many doctors' were regularly sedating their children!! But I do take your point about the fact that doctors are more likely to have easier access to prescription medicines than the general public. GPs are often given free samples from pharmaceutical reps for instance. If they work in a hospital setting they would be in close proximity to ward drug trolleys or cupboards but these are kept locked and its usually nursing staff who have the keys so its not a case of just helping yourself. Also doctors aren't really able to write prescriptions for themselves, if they're ill they have to go to their GP like everyone else and KM is unlikely to have been her own children's /husband's GP. I'm not saying its impossible for the doctors in question here to get hold of a suitable sedative but it wouldn't be as easy as you're suggesting, they'd still need to be careful.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say Mrs Fenn wasn't involved until after the event. Can you explain?

Thought I'd posted this earlier.
For Mods. I do not intend to be libelous, everything I say is said for a reason most to remind the weak person in all of this (KM) that there are many people who will never believe anything she says because she has lied so much in this case in the past. IMHO miserable twat that I am. I admit quoting from passages of the BEWK could be viewed in bad taste.
For Suep: When I used the term "many Doctors drug their children" by many I mean more that 1. It is a fact that Doctors will stick to their profession like superglue. They even outperform the Freemasons.
Did Mrs Fenn tell the McCanns prior to May 03 that their children were crying for hours on previous nights? If so what is the source of this? If indeed the bewk is to be believed and Mrs Fenn found out on that night that Madeleine was missing why did she not immediately report that to the police? This whole tangled web beggers belief.

by Woburn_exile 18.12.13 23:45

One for the Mods:

I see you have once again unjustifiably removed my posts. The post I refer to is where I said that Doctors can prescribe anything they want to and it is not a phamacist's business or anybody else's business to question them. Apart from the GMC that is. (I think they still control things) My source? I have double figure Doctors in my family, (I am an Engineer) but more important one of my market trading associates is also a qualified as a Doctor and runs a company that regulates the Pharmaceutical industry. 99.999% of Doctors are ethical gurus. We know that there are always those that bend the rules and cover their arse with a few well placed colleagues. These are facts not widely known in the populace and rightly the practices should be allowed to continue because no system can by default be perfect and this has been decided by the GMC as the best way to continue.

PS One of my extended family knew GM from med school training. He practices medicine in Norway. He was a bit skiffy and short when I mentioned his name at a recent family gathering.

by suep 19.12.13 2:39

Woburn_exile wrote:Woburn, I'm sorry but I'd be very very surprised if 'many doctors' were regularly sedating their children!! But I do take your point about the fact that doctors are more likely to have easier access to prescription medicines than the general public. GPs are often given free samples from pharmaceutical reps for instance. If they work in a hospital setting they would be in close proximity to ward drug trolleys or cupboards but these are kept locked and its usually nursing staff who have the keys so its not a case of just helping yourself. Also doctors aren't really able to write prescriptions for themselves, if they're ill they have to go to their GP like everyone else and KM is unlikely to have been her own children's /husband's GP. I'm not saying its impossible for the doctors in question here to get hold of a suitable sedative but it wouldn't be as easy as you're suggesting, they'd still need to be careful.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say Mrs Fenn wasn't involved until after the event. Can you explain?

Thought I'd posted this earlier.
For Mods. I do not intend to be libelous, everything I say is said for a reason most to remind the weak person in all of this (KM) that there are many people who will never believe anything she says because she has lied so much in this case in the past. IMHO miserable twat that I am. I admit quoting from passages of the BEWK could be viewed in bad taste.
For Suep: When I used the term "many Doctors drug their children" by many I mean more that 1. It is a fact that Doctors will stick to their profession like superglue. They even outperform the Freemasons.
Did Mrs Fenn tell the McCanns prior to May 03 that their children were crying for hours on previous nights? If so what is the source of this? If indeed the bewk is to be believed and Mrs Fenn found out on that night that Madeleine was missing why did she not immediately report that to the police? This whole tangled web beggers belief.

Thanks Woburn, I see what you meant now about Mrs Fenn and 'after the fact'. I did read somewhere that on the night she heard the prolonged crying, said to be Tuesday 1st May, she contacted MW about it and one of their staff found the parents and informed them a child was crying in their apartment. If this is true - and I say 'if' because there's so much of this case that can't be verified - but if Mrs Fenn did this then depending on what MW staff told the McCs when they found them to tell them their child was crying they could have at least inferred that a close neighbour in their apartment complex had heard Madeleine and complained to the OC about it. It wouldn't have been difficult for them to work out who this was since they were dining with the rest of their close neighbours.

On your other points about doctors, I still find it hard to believe that a significant number of them would risk harming their own children by sedating them but I do agree with you about the closing of ranks. I've seen this first hand as a nurse.

by Woburn_exile 19.12.13 8:54

suep wrote:
Woburn_exile wrote:Woburn, I'm sorry but I'd be very very surprised if 'many doctors' were regularly sedating their children!! But I do take your point about the fact that doctors are more likely to have easier access to prescription medicines than the general public. GPs are often given free samples from pharmaceutical reps for instance. If they work in a hospital setting they would be in close proximity to ward drug trolleys or cupboards but these are kept locked and its usually nursing staff who have the keys so its not a case of just helping yourself. Also doctors aren't really able to write prescriptions for themselves, if they're ill they have to go to their GP like everyone else and KM is unlikely to have been her own children's /husband's GP. I'm not saying its impossible for the doctors in question here to get hold of a suitable sedative but it wouldn't be as easy as you're suggesting, they'd still need to be careful.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say Mrs Fenn wasn't involved until after the event. Can you explain?

Thought I'd posted this earlier.
For Mods. I do not intend to be libelous, everything I say is said for a reason most to remind the weak person in all of this (KM) that there are many people who will never believe anything she says because she has lied so much in this case in the past. IMHO miserable twat that I am. I admit quoting from passages of the BEWK could be viewed in bad taste.
For Suep: When I used the term "many Doctors drug their children" by many I mean more that 1. It is a fact that Doctors will stick to their profession like superglue. They even outperform the Freemasons.
Did Mrs Fenn tell the McCanns prior to May 03 that their children were crying for hours on previous nights? If so what is the source of this? If indeed the bewk is to be believed and Mrs Fenn found out on that night that Madeleine was missing why did she not immediately report that to the police? This whole tangled web beggers belief.

Thanks Woburn, I see what you meant now about Mrs Fenn and 'after the fact'. I did read somewhere that on the night she heard the prolonged crying, said to be Tuesday 1st May, she contacted MW about it and one of their staff found the parents and informed them a child was crying in their apartment. If this is true - and I say 'if' because there's so much of this case that can't be verified - but if Mrs Fenn did this then depending on what MW staff told the McCs when they found them to tell them their child was crying they could have at least inferred that a close neighbour in their apartment complex had heard Madeleine and complained to the OC about it. It wouldn't have been difficult for them to work out who this was since they were dining with the rest of their close neighbours.

On your other points about doctors, I still find it hard to believe that a significant number of them would risk harming their own children by sedating them but I do agree with you about the closing of ranks. I've seen this first hand as a nurse.

Suep, nowhere am I saying that a significant number of Doctors would risk harming their children by sedating them. But there are some who would, just so they can go on the razz and leave their children home alone. Just like the McCanns and their friends. This is not in my most humble miserable opinion , it is a proven fact.

by Cristobell 19.12.13 11:06

Further on the question of sedating the children, someone on another thread questioned if this were pre-planned, why sedate the twins, knowing that at some point that night, police would be in attendance.

This has stuck in my head, and I apologise for not remembering who said, but it is highly significant, and one of those, doh, wish I had thought of that moments, because it narrows whatever happened down to that night, there is no leeway for it having occurred on the 1st or the 2nd. The McCanns are indeed risk takers, but had police insisted on taking the twins to hospital, the whole story would have been blown.

I am probably arguing in my own mind at the moment, because I struggle to understand how everything, the whole abductor, checking system, etc, came together in so few hours. If everything was done in a panic, it would of course explain the rubbish story, the lack of evidence, the shutters unbroken, the torn sticker book, Jane's unbelievable sighting and the Smiths seeing Gerry running through the backstreets of PDL. In other words, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid.

by Guest 19.12.13 11:21

Cristobell wrote: [...] The McCanns are indeed risk takers, but had police insisted on taking the twins to hospital, the whole story would have been blown. [...].

***
I'm not convinced. In those first hours, everything was concentrated on finding a missing child. The twins' parents were doctors, as were 4 others in the party. I doubt that police would have given priority to checking the twins, as there was, if need be, "medical assistance" on-site ... Of course ... later on there were big question marks, but then it was too late to check.

by pennylane 19.12.13 11:24

Cristobell wrote:Further on the question of sedating the children, someone on another thread questioned if this were pre-planned, why sedate the twins, knowing that at some point that night, police would be in attendance.

This has stuck in my head, and I apologise for not remembering who said, but it is highly significant, and one of those, doh, wish I had thought of that moments, because it narrows whatever happened down to that night, there is no leeway for it having occurred on the 1st or the 2nd. The McCanns are indeed risk takers, but had police insisted on taking the twins to hospital, the whole story would have been blown.

I am probably arguing in my own mind at the moment, because I struggle to understand how everything, the whole abductor, checking system, etc, came together in so few hours. If everything was done in a panic, it would of course explain the rubbish story, the lack of evidence, the shutters unbroken, the torn sticker book, Jane's unbelievable sighting and the Smiths seeing Gerry running through the backstreets of PDL. In other words, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid.

I'm with you all the way Cristobell! thumbup

It's all last minute, and back fitted in a very haphazard manner! Which is precisely why the Portuguese police cottoned on so fast.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 19.12.13 11:28

Châtelaine wrote:
I'm not convinced. In those first hours, everything was concentrated on finding a missing child. The twins' parents were doctors, as were 4 others in the party. I doubt that police would have given priority to checking the twins, as there was, if need be, "medical assistance" on-site ... Of course ... later on there were big question marks, but then it was too late to check.

Yes, you doubt, you're not certain. Neither would the McCanns have been certain, so this would have been an immense risk to take, it would have rendered all their 'hard work' pointless. The official story says that the twins were in the room when Madeleine was taken. How could the McCanns be certain that the police wouldn't take the twins for a medical check? There were doctors in the group, but did they have all the necessary equipment with them while on holiday in Portugal? Of course, it would have to be with their consent. But if the police asked, how would it look on them if they turned them down?

Sedating the twins would have been an incredibly stupid risk to take. In the same way that the idea that Gerry would walk around PDL and create a sighting of an 'abductor' on purpose, while taking the very big risk that the person(s) would identify him later on.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 19.12.13 11:29

Cristobell wrote:Further on the question of sedating the children, someone on another thread questioned if this were pre-planned, why sedate the twins, knowing that at some point that night, police would be in attendance.

This has stuck in my head, and I apologise for not remembering who said, but it is highly significant, and one of those, doh, wish I had thought of that moments, because it narrows whatever happened down to that night, there is no leeway for it having occurred on the 1st or the 2nd. The McCanns are indeed risk takers, but had police insisted on taking the twins to hospital, the whole story would have been blown.

I am probably arguing in my own mind at the moment, because I struggle to understand how everything, the whole abductor, checking system, etc, came together in so few hours. If everything was done in a panic, it would of course explain the rubbish story, the lack of evidence, the shutters unbroken, the torn sticker book, Jane's unbelievable sighting and the Smiths seeing Gerry running through the backstreets of PDL. In other words, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid.

I think it may have been me Cristobell :) So of course I agree!

by Guest 19.12.13 11:29

Cristobell wrote:Further on the question of sedating the children, someone on another thread questioned if this were pre-planned, why sedate the twins, knowing that at some point that night, police would be in attendance.

This has stuck in my head, and I apologise for not remembering who said, but it is highly significant, and one of those, doh, wish I had thought of that moments, because it narrows whatever happened down to that night, there is no leeway for it having occurred on the 1st or the 2nd. The McCanns are indeed risk takers, but had police insisted on taking the twins to hospital, the whole story would have been blown.

I am probably arguing in my own mind at the moment, because I struggle to understand how everything, the whole abductor, checking system, etc, came together in so few hours. If everything was done in a panic, it would of course explain the rubbish story, the lack of evidence, the shutters unbroken, the torn sticker book, Jane's unbelievable sighting and the Smiths seeing Gerry running through the backstreets of PDL. In other words, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid.

The twins needed to be asleep, in the room though. Lesser of two evils? Sedate twins to ensure their "compliance" in events that followed, or risk them waking/crying at an inopportune moment. Not to mention that they needed to be asleep before the parents could head out to tapas. Remember they needed to create the "neglect" in order for the abduction story to have any legs. In short, they needed Maddie to be "abducted", and everything else was just creating the circumstances to make it possible.

by Guest 19.12.13 11:31

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Of course, it would have to be with their consent. But if the police asked, how would it look on them if they turned them down?

"We've already lost one child, now you want to take our others? We're not letting them out of our sight sob sob sob"

by canada12 19.12.13 11:32

I'm reminded of an episode of an old tv cop series. Pick one... Columbo comes to mind. And perhaps a little Agatha Christie thrown in for good measure. Perhaps the haphazard plan was to provide too many clues, rather than not enough. Confusion is good. Therefore we have an abundance of clues which really don't make sense, in the cold light of day. But that abundance of clues does one important thing - it muddies the waters sufficiently that any investigator trying to follow a straight line of evidence has detours, confusion and dead ends thrown his way at every opportunity. The trick is to pick at the threads of the confusion and find the one which leads to what actually happened.

by canada12 19.12.13 11:36

I think if the police had taken the twins to hospital to be tested, and the tests had come back positive for sedation, the McCanns would simply have agreed that yes, they sedated the twins so they'd go to sleep. It all falls within the bounds of reasonable parenting, of course. They were already owning up to negligence for leaving the kids alone. What's a little sedation when added to the mix?

by whatliesbehindthesofa 19.12.13 11:49

But I don't understand why Fiona Payne said this in her rogatory statement:

'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

Why did she bring this up? By the time of this interview I think sedation was already out there as a possibility, but why did Fiona give such a clear picture of Kate 'being in the know'?

by pennylane 19.12.13 11:59

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:But I don't understand why Fiona Payne said this in her rogatory statement:

'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

Why did she bring this up? By the time of this interview I think sedation was already out there as a possibility, but why did Fiona give such a clear picture of Kate 'being in the know'?

Perhaps Fi was brought into line with fears for her husband and his career?

by pennylane 19.12.13 12:00

canada12 wrote:I think if the police had taken the twins to hospital to be tested, and the tests had come back positive for sedation, the McCanns would simply have agreed that yes, they sedated the twins so they'd go to sleep. It all falls within the bounds of reasonable parenting, of course. They were already owning up to negligence for leaving the kids alone. What's a little sedation when added to the mix?

They would have been arrested for sure if that had happened!

by Guest 19.12.13 12:13

deleted

by Guest 19.12.13 12:17

Châtelaine wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Of course, it would have to be with their consent. But if the police asked, how would it look on them if they turned them down?

.

"We've already lost one child, now you want to take our others? We're not letting them out of our sight sob sob sob"

***
Can you correct that, Clay? I didn't write that. WLBTS did.[/quote]

I have deleted your name Chatelaine

by Guest 19.12.13 12:17

Châtelaine wrote:
Can you correct that, Clay? I didn't write that. WLBTS did.

Done (hopefully!)

Some kind of formatting glitch I'm afraid.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 19.12.13 12:18

pennylane wrote:
Perhaps Fi was brought into line with fears for her husband and his career?

Maybe, she certainly didn't mention Kate's behaviour with the twins at either of the two interviews with the PJ back in May. Perhaps by this point, Fiona had 'turned against' Kate in a way, and was dropping Kate in it in a subtle way.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 19.12.13 12:19

Grrrr, that damned quote button! empathy

by pennylane 19.12.13 12:37

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Perhaps Fi was brought into line with fears for her husband and his career?

Maybe, she certainly didn't mention Kate's behaviour with the twins at either of the two interviews with the PJ back in May. Perhaps by this point, Fiona had 'turned against' Kate in a way, and was dropping Kate in it in a subtle way.

Fi accompanied Kate to the Lisbon trial (after Gerry's infamous strop) holding Kate's hand in front of the media and photographers, and so certainly from the outside looking in they are buddies. But I've always wondered about the sudden timing of the Gaspar statements. Is it possible Dave and Fi were given a wake up call?

by jeanmonroe 19.12.13 13:00

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:But I don't understand why Fiona Payne said this in her rogatory statement:

'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

Why did she bring this up? By the time of this interview I think sedation was already out there as a possibility, but why did Fiona give such a clear picture of Kate 'being in the know'?

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Date: October 24, 2007
I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.

1485
'Okay. So I will ask you first of all to tell me a bit about yourself and your family''
Reply
'Okay. Erm, erm, I'm thirty, I'll work that out actually, I'm thirty-five years old. I work as an Anaesthetist at Leicester and Leicester Registrar.

1485
'What is it you do for a living''
Reply
'I'm an Anaesthetist, so I, erm, it combines a lot of different skills, we work in obstetrics, on labour ward doing epidurals, doing caesarean sections for women and we work on intensive care unit, in theatres, cover any need for, you know, resuscitation. So, yeah, it's quite a stressful job and a busy job, erm, I enjoy it'.

1485
'And how long have you been'.
Reply
'Erm, I've been an Anaesthetist since about ninety-seven, erm, in Leicester'.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Perhaps at FP's 'visit' at 7:00PM (19:00 hrs) a child could have been 'accidentally' over sedated by, say, a specialised anaesthetist

Incidentally it is odd that DP is always claimed to be the last 'non McCann' to 'see' Madeleine (with his 30secs/30mins 'visit' asked by GM at 6:30pm)

Yet we have FP 'in the McCanns apartment' AT 7:00pm.

A full HALF an HOUR 'AFTER' DP!

Perhaps she (FP) didn't 'see' the three McCann children, looking like 'angels' in their pyjamas, as her husband DP 'saw' them, earlier than her!

winkwink

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